This House believes that Arab Governments are not interested in genuine reform

TIM SEBASTIAN
Your Excellencies, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Tim Sebastian and I have the honour to welcome you to the first in our series of Doha Debates. I understand that there is a rival attraction in town tonight in the shape of a football match, but we're very glad that you chose us instead. We never forget that you have a choice. Should you be tempted in the course of the debate to use your mobiles phones to find out the result of the game we would urge you not to, and in fact if you would kindly turn your mobile phones off now, we would be very grateful.
Let me take, for a moment, a giant step back, back 1400 years, back to the spirit of debate and inquiry that characterised the life of the Prophet Mohammed, to the time when men and women of all convictions would argue with him in an atmosphere of enlightenment, creativity and mutual respect. I would like to hope that in our debate tonight and in future debates, we can recreate something of that spirit of argument, and apply it to some of the most divisive and controversial areas in this region. I'm talking for instance about human rights, women's rights, freedom of speech, and of course the Arab-Israeli conflict. I believe that these debates form part of the vital push for change and reform that's been spearheaded here in Qatar, along with the embracing of diversity in all its forms. In that spirit, we intend to invite to future debates some of the key global decision-makers of our time, without regard to their country of origin, their religion, or political viewpoint.
You may have seen the sign when you came in tonight which said 'Free seating'. As you probably know as well as I do, there's no such thing as a free seat, and certainly not tonight. Your attendance comes with our expectation that you will participate actively in these discussions, and I say this especially to the students in the audience tonight, because participation in a free society is not only a right, it's a duty. I hope you'll scrutinise and probe the arguments that you hear, and analyse why the speakers hold the particular views that they're putting forward, and that you'll go home tonight at least with different questions in your mind, if not different answers. I believe it's up to you to seek them. Ladies and gentlemen, people who can communicate effectively with each other rarely fight each other. We hope that future conflicts will be played out in forums like this; frankly, freely, with no political constraints and with respect for others' opinions, because only by rigorously examining the validity of existing arguments do we move on to new ones. Informed participation is a vital part of any functioning society.
Now just a word about how the debates are going to run tonight. As you know, the motion before the House is that 'Arab governments are not interested in genuine reform.' Two speakers on this side of the House will support that motion, two here will seek to challenge it. In the end, the issue will be decided by you, the audience, with a show of hands, and as they used to say in the old Soviet Union, 'It's not a question of the way you vote, it's the question of how I count.' Once the speakers have debated amongst themselves, we will throw the issue open to you, the audience, to put questions of your own. The event is scheduled to last for an hour-and-a-quarter. There will be refreshments afterwards, and I do hope that you will continue to debate on a more informal basis afterwards and stay as long as you like. We certainly won't turn the lights out while any of you are still here.
Let me introduce our eminent speakers in support of the motion. Dr Saad Eddin Ibrahim was Professor of Political Sociology at the American University in Cairo. In June 2000, he was arrested on the orders of an Egyptian security court and sentenced to seven years' imprisonment. Amnesty International described his trial as politically motivated. In March 2003, Egypt's High Court of Cassation quashed his conviction and ruled that the trial had been improper. Rime Allaf is a writer, a broadcaster and consultant on Middle East affairs, an associate fellow of the Royal Institute of International Affairs in London, Chatham House. Born in Syria, she formerly wrote on international affairs for Lebanon's Daily Star newspaper.
Now for those against the motion. Hussein Shobokshi is President of a leading research and consultancy house in Saudi Arabia. He's also a board member of the Chamber of Commerce in Mecca, and frequent writer and commentator, and formally named by the World Economic Forum as one of the global leaders of tomorrow.
And Adel Darwish, a British reporter with 35 years' experience of working in this region and western Asia. Occasionally, he says, he's even been allowed on to some of the Arabic language stations, such as Egyptian Radio, Nile TV and Kuwait Television.
Ladies and gentlemen, these are our speakers.
(applause)
Dr. Ibrahim, may I call on you first please to speak in support of the motion that Arab governments have no interest in genuine reform.

DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
Thank you, Tim, for your very kind introduction, and thank you all for being here with us tonight.
The issue that we are discussing is very dear to my heart. I paid with three years of my life for what I'm going to say tonight, that we in the Arab world have wonderful nations, wonderful people, but we've got the worst rulers on the globe, and it is these leaders that I'm going to talk about, with few exceptions including an exception here in this country.
The issue put to us - are Arab leaders interested in democratic reform - I and my colleague will be saying, 'No, they are not.' They have had ample opportunities to bring about democratic reform and they have not, and I don't want to keep saying 'with few exceptions', but the rule – and I'm talking about the rule - the overwhelming majority of Arab rulers have not shown any interest in reform. Now, are our people ready for reform? My answer is yes, they are. They have been ready for reform. Every opportunity that our people had to democratise, they embraced democracy very eagerly, very enthusiastically. Some 140 years ago, and this may be a surprise to many of you, Egyptians had their first elected parliament back in 1866. A hundred years later, the Palestinians, despite the oppression, despite the ruthless occupation that they lived under, had another election, in 1996. In between these two dates, 1866 and 1996, every Arab country that was given the opportunity, embraced democracy.
However, in many of these countries, again it was short-lived, because our rulers reversed it, couldn't live with it, couldn't stand what democracy really all entails: power sharing, power rotation, rule of law, accountability, transparency. All of these is really what democracy is all about, what freedom and liberty is all about. Our rulers have grown addicted to absolute power, and Ibn Khaldun, a great Arab thinker, once said that power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely, and that's what we have in the Arab world - absolute power that has been, at least for the last 50 years, with no accountability, no transparency, no rule of law, no power rotation. We have had, in some of these countries, the same unelected leader who came to power probably through a coup d'état or driving a tank, and these leaders have remained in place and have oppressed their people.
My question to you, to myself, 'What are we going to do about it? What are we going to do about all of this?' Should we stand by and wait for Godot, or for God to change things around us, or should we, as free human beings, men and women, and specially you, young generation, what should we do about it? And here is my point. Mahatma Gandhi, the great Indian leader, once said, 'If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem,' and therefore if this despicable state of affairs is a problem, if we do not solve it ourselves, then we are part of it, and therefore I call on all of you, specially the younger generation, for whom the future belongs, to scream out loud from this forum, this debating forum in Qatar, to say to our leaders, 'Let our people go!' Let our people be free, let us go, let us join the 21st century, let us be part of the community of democracy around the globe. Our people deserve better, you deserve better. We must all work to change things. Let us be part of the solution, and we must overcome, we shall overcome, we will overcome. Thank you very much.
(applause)
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Ibrahim, thank you very much. Before we move on, do you not accept that in some countries in the Arab world, the people acquiesced with the compact that said to them, 'You don't have to pay any taxes, you don't have to pay anything into the State, you'll have a reasonable standard of living and for that you can forego democracy and accountability.' There was acquiescence, wasn't there?
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
This argument has been made, many arguments have been made to delay democracy. This is one of them. Another one is that we have to liberate Palestine first, and these leaders, by the way, did not liberate any inch of Palestine, but they keep using Palestine as an excuse. They have 1001 excuse to delay reform, to delay democracy, and now there's Iraq, by the way, so now they want to liberate Iraq. These leaders who did not lift a finger to help the Iraqi people when they were under the mercy of a ruthless dictator, are now shedding tears, but these are tears of the crocodile, as they say. They have not done much for the Iraqis, for the Palestinians, and yet they keep using these as excuses. They also use the excuse of poverty - that we still have a lot of poverty, and democracy cannot work when people are poor. What have they done about it in 50 years? Why have people remained poor? They talk about literacy. There is a high illiteracy rate in some countries and they keep that as an excuse as well. We tell them, 'Look at India, look at Senegal, look at sub-Saharan Africa.' Many of these countries are poorer than the Arab world, that are less educated than the Arab world, and yet they're democracies. No, the truth of the matter, Tim, is that our leaders have no intention of sharing power, in being accountable, in allowing the rule of law, and this is really the problem. Our people are ready but our rulers are not ready.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hussein Shobokshi, may I ask you to speak against the motion please.

HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Well, being the third speaker here, I feel like Elizabeth Taylor's fourth husband. I know exactly what I'm supposed to do but I want to make it interesting, so we'll give it a try. The E.U, feeling jealous of the United States of America, decided to send a mission to the Arab world to search for weapons of mass destruction, and they came back a month later. They said there weren't any weapons found but there was a lot of mass destruction.
How sad this joke but how true it is. Reform all of a sudden has become an ugly, dirty and extremely suspicious word in the Arab world today. Reform and not democracy. After all, how can you reform the blessed and the privileged in the Gulf countries today, or why should you reform the glory of Egypt, or how dare you reform the land of the Levant, which has been in the front of Arab nationalism, the greatest of all causes, and on and on and on, while it is extraordinarily simple and sometimes very naïve to conclude that the main obstacle to reform in the Arab world are its government and leaders. We need to look further because there are other variable and important ones to be mentioned.
The Arab societies face a number of significant ailments that curtail their aspirations. Among those most notably are corruption, illiteracy, inequality, extremism to name but a few. However, what must be learned and noted here, is that most of the ailments are brought on by a self-made, self-destructive social mechanism. Terrorism of late and particularly after the events of 11th September has been a widely debated topic in the Arab world and in the world in general, influencing leading social thinkers to think that the Arab world is in desperate need of a Martin Luther-like figure to separate religion from state, but this unfortunately falls very short from showing and exposing the real picture that exists today. What the Arab world really needs is a Gandhi or a Mandela-like figure, persona, someone who has the ability to unify the masses on a common goal regardless of any prejudices, and there are plenty in the Arab world. The caste system which exists in India, apartheid which has existed in South Africa, is alive and kicking all over the Arab world without exception, a divide, a great divide that has separated citizens based on social structures, and that has been and still is and will remain - unless we do something about it - the Arab dirty secret, a divide that separates citizens based on vicious social structures. How else can we explain the will of the government in Kuwait to give its female citizens the right to vote but would later on be rejected by its own parliament? How else can we explain in Kuwait again the official discriminatory policy against a significant number of its population because they don't fit the right criteria of the right tribe, so they will always be called the Bedouins? That's not made by the government. These are issues made by the people. They've accepted it and they live with it and proudly. The tremendous gap between the 'Alawites in Syria and the rest of the citizens, the Nubians in Egypt, they'll always be porters and bus-drivers, the Berbers and the Arabs of North Africa, the vulgar and clear discrimination that takes place among the citizens of each region in the Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Oman and Yemen and Iraq to name but a few. Social discrimination is the greatest of all ailments facing Arab societies today. It creates government in its own image but it also poisons the mentality for reform and definitely for democracy. Until the institutionalised social segregation ceases to exist in the Arab world, it will continue to remain in a state of denial, blaming their governments or the other, whoever that other may be. While governments have been introducing little windows of opportunity to reform, there has been great popular resistance against equality based on gender and race from the people, while hiding these prejudices under religion or Arab nationalism whenever convenient.
I know I am trying to lobby for a difficult cause here, but I beg you to listen carefully and analyse without any preset prejudices or preset notions that we have been accustomed to for the longest time, to blame everything on the government. We need to change that set of mind and look at ourselves. The social reform that is required must start at home, the tribe, the family, the school and other various civil institutions. Only then can we blame the governments exclusively. Thank you.
(applause)
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hussein Shobokshi, thank you very much. You paint this picture of some Arab citizens who accept willingly the status quo. If they don't accept it, there are some pretty heavy-handed, strong-arm organisations, particularly in your country, to make them accept it.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI This is very true. We complain of the treatment that we get from the West at the moment, specifically America, but look at the treatment we give each other, in the Arab world. We claim we are one nation. Are we one nation? Ask that of yourselves. Look internally in every Arab country and see, do we treat ourselves equally? The Kurds, the Berbers, the African origins, the Copts, you name it, it's across the board. In every country, in every region in every country, we have that issue and we need to address it, and it has been a cause of many ailments, be it against women, against minorities, and it will keep growing unless we face it and blame ourselves first.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I now call on Rime Allaf to speak in support of the motion, please.

RIME ALLAF
There certainly is a tradition of social discrimination in the Arab world. It would be impossible to forget that. We see it every day, in front of our eyes. However, there's a reason that social discrimination or discrimination of many other types still prevails in the Arab world, and the Arab governments have to take the biggest share of responsibility in this discrimination that still remains today. What seems like a burden on the populations is in fact something that has trickled down through the echelons of society, until each and every single person in the Arab world seems to be looking for somebody to take it out on, and to pretend he is more important, or she is more important than him.
There's been many years wasted in the Arab world, years when governments could have used their wealth to educate their populations, to prepare them for the century in which we live. All we need to do is look at the by now very famous - sadly famous - UNDP report on Arab human development. We've had two reports, and the basic conclusion from it is that we are sadly a rich nation of poor people. And the report came up with three very clear conclusions, and we only need to look around all of our societies in most of the Arab world to agree with these conclusions. There's no freedom in the Arab world. They are for the most part absolute autocracies which are not accountable, which for the most part hold bogus elections with incredible winning numbers of 97, 98 or like Saddam Hussein, 99.9%, which nobody dares to dispute. We have absolutely no independent judiciary. How can there be justice and how can there be freedom when you can buy a judge or the judge is forced to rule in your favour? We have no independent media. We have nobody who will dare to come up to the ruler or to the clique of rulers and point out to the inadequate positions of his government, or to the iniquities in society. We have a suffocating civil society. The few brave people who try to speak out are silenced one way or another. We have, when there are some steps that are taken, huge administrative so-called red tape, which in fact are obstacles to the rights. They are technically in constitutions. It's all very well to study the constitutions in the Arab world, but it's one thing to read it and it's another thing to live it.
Freedom is of course a right, it's not a concession or a favour given by the governments. ‘No freedom’ is the second conclusion of the UNDP report, no knowledge, there's a knowledge deficiency in the Arab world. We have 65 million illiterate people out of 280. This is unbelievable in the 21st century, and I would like to speak also about the quantity and the quality of knowledge. It's very easy to speak about the millions of illiterate people in the Arab world, but we forget that even the literate people have very little quality in their teachings which can help them develop their societies and develop themselves. There are only 18 computers in the Arab world for 1000 persons, compared to nearly 100 in the western world, let alone access to the Internet. No wonder we have no research in development, no wonder we have the brain-drain that is going increasingly to the West. It's because Arab governments have refused to open opportunities for even the learned amongst us, and even the ones who were willing to help their societies develop. No freedom, no knowledge, and clearly no women's empowerment. Half the population of the Arab world - that's about 150 million women - are completely sidelined regardless of their qualifications, regardless of their rights. Indeed, much is blamed on the patriarchal societies, much is blamed on religious reasons. Both of these reasons are completely unacceptable. So what do we do about this? Our governments are speaking now about reform, it's the buzz word of the past few years, but are they serious? I argue they are not serious about reform for several reasons. First of all, most governments deny outright that there are problems in their societies. They blame it on outside influences, they claim that they are working to take care, and they don't like the word 'reform' by the way, they like 'development', they like 'improvement'. For those few in the Arab world who do speak about reform, they're not doing much more than paying lip service to it, and this is the reason that I'm putting to you. There are no real plans put in place to combat all the ills of society. It's all very well to speak about reform, the needs of society, but you need to know how. Every measure that has been taken, for the most part in the Arab world, has been a cosmetic, completely superficial measure, intended to buy time. There's still rampant nepotism and cronyism, and it's an inverted pyramid in the Arab world, and when you come down to the bottom of it, it's very difficult to climb your way back up and to find persons who are willing to go beyond the system, for the good of the society, or reform on a horizontal scale, so we must move slowly and accept civil society to help in this reform. Until governments embrace the people in the Arab world who are more than ready and willing to help, they are not going to be serious about reform. Thank you.
(applause)
TIM SEBASTIAN
Rime Allaf, thank you very much indeed. You lay this long list of ills at the door of every Arab government, but to what extent should civil society have pushed harder? To what extent should people have been better organised to improve their own lot?
RIME ALLAF
Unfortunately a lot of civil societies and the general Arab world have been feeling apathetic for a long time. Those who have tried to remedy these ills have been silenced one way or another, and all too often you find very capable people who are simply willing to say, 'Well, look, I cannot fight a mountain myself.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
But they can't blame the government for their own apathy, can they?
RIME ALLAF
Certainly not, but they can blame actions by the government. They fear for their families, they fear for their businesses, and we sure need more people to be stronger and to rise above that, because obviously if governments are faced with greater numbers of people willing to stand up to them, then they will have no choice but to respond. We are partly responsible for these governments.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much. Adel Darwish, I call on you now to speak against the motion.

ADEL DARWISH
What do we mean by Arab governments? Governments whose head and empowered staff are ethnically Arab? I can think of no more than eight. And with governments or governing nations, the majority of which are ethnically Arab, that makes about ten governments. Or nations whose official language is Arabic, that would include Israel and will leave out members of the Arab League. Then comes again the word 'reform'. Now, is it economic reform, is it political reform, is it social reform, is it a land reform? Dictionaries define the verb 'to reform' is to change in order to improve, and the noun I actually take it to be is improvement. Well, there were many changes in the Greater Middle East by internal or external movements. Take the external ones, interventions justified as reform or as a change to correct things which went wrong. Egypt's intervention in Yemen, Israel in West Bank and Gaza, Syria in Lebanon, Morocco in the Sahara, Libya in Chad, Russia in Afghanistan, Iraq in Kuwait and lately America in Iraq. Can any one of you think of improvements that took place as a result of those interventions?
Now we'll talk about reforms from within. Well, apart from the Iranian Revolution, all were military coups: Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia. Again, can anyone think of any improvements in the above economic decline, wholesale violation of human and civil rights, destructions in the society and wars? However, peace in the Gulf in the early 70's, followed by Oman followed by Qatar. All are monarchies, not revolution but revolution leaving to steady ongoing march of progress. National municipal election, women voting even in places where a powerful Muslim church that gives the government its legitimacy always considered election to be blasphemous like any other man-made laws, yet we have seen elections taking place there. Perhaps by reform you meant swapping traditional tribal process of governing with the Western style, one man, one vote. As Tim said, will the population accept taxation that goes with it and the losing other financial privileges? Is it the responsibility of the government alone, or of society and the examples made by Hussein Shobokshi here, even though democracy is not even clearly defined?
The United States, for example, have fused state and government into one administration, collating a term in office tyranny of the majority, even if that majority was only a handful of votes in Florida. Take Egypt for example which geographically, ethnically, culturally and politically is very much Arab. Is the reform mentioned in the motion (sound poor). I had a job last year when I was in Egypt. They said the parliament has a committee for reform and they decided to send several delegates to London, to Paris, to Rome, to see how they are more advanced than the Egyptians, then come back and report. All the committees came back within a month, presented one report of one paragraph saying, parliament committee, 'You've got it wrong, we are 50 years ahead of these people. Was that how we used to live 50 years ago?' So what we're talking here is return to what has existed prior to an illegal military coup by Colonel Nasser in 1952.
So to borrow that phrase from the film, Egyptians need a 'back to the future' step. Would this be reform or restoration like what happened in England when King Charles II came back? If you are going on the motorway and find yourself on the wrong way, you first put your car in reverse gear to go back to the right turning. Is that reform or is it correction? Granted, many governments would resist losing their grip on power, but society too would always prefer to keep the status quo rather than facing the uncertain future of journeys. See, the motion's not clear here with what we mean by reform. It's economic, it's political, it's social. We heard that example from Kuwait for instance. I've got connections for the Daily Telegraph three years ago, when the Crown Prince went on walkabout, shaking hands, kissing babies, exchanging views, encompassing a programme of reform. Holding this debate here tonight under the nose of the Qatari government and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation runs contrary to the logic of the motion. Remember the motion's not talking about exception, it's talking about as a whole and you've got to vote in it as a whole, not as exception. Unless the Qatari government is not an Arab government or the (sound poor) in the mid-1990's is not accepted by the motion as reform. Economic prosperity, freedom of expression will sometimes put a strain on Qatari foreign policies. Mass education, municipal election, improving the lot of women, are these reforms by our government?
Perhaps had the motion been worded differently in a rational way that respects your minds and your intellectual faculties, I'd have supported it. I urge you as intellectual participants to apply the logic of academics and lawyers not the emotions of mob industry. I urge you to throw out this motion for one thing, it's a structure that does not seem to respect your minds. Thank you.
(applause)
TIM SEBASTIAN Adel Darwish, thank you very much indeed. Dr. Ibrahim, you want to come in. Quickly then.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Has he shaken your convictions at all?
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
Not at all. Actually it has confirmed them, because what we see here on the other side of this divide is the same rulers' verbal, definitional acrobatics, so are confused are they as to what is reform. Everybody intuitively knows what reform is. Everybody knows what an Arab is. We're not going to redefine an Arab. An Arab is the one who feels an Arab. I'm not going to wait for somebody coming from London to define who an Arab is. That is one.
Two - majority, the tyranny of the majority. If I have to have a tyranny, I'd rather have the tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of the minority, if there is to be a tyranny, but what I'm arguing for is real democracy. We had a liberal age. Mr. Shobokshi talked about all the problems of the Arab society, social structures, ethnic divisions, classes, and blaming all the problems on the victims. In any problem there is a victim and a victimiser. What they see from the other side of this divide is blaming the victim, blaming the people, the people's standard of intellect, consciousness. They really don't think they are emotional. That is blaming the victim. What about the victimisers, the people who have set us back 50 years, 100 years, 1400 years? These are the issues, who is going to shape and determine our future? We, the people or the few rulers who have accumulated wealth, who have oppressed their people, who have put thousands of people in prison.
No, there are people who are fighting for freedom. I have seen them. There were 18,000 people with me in prison in Egypt who fought for freedom. You don't hear about them because they are muffled. And there are more in Syria, there are more in Algeria, there are more everywhere. The Arabs have sacrificed for freedom, for democratic government. Yes, of course, an average simple villager in Aleppo or in Marakesh may not know all the definitions that Mr. Adel Darwish drowned us in, and he would not have the sophistication but he knows … (overlap)
TIM SEBASTIAN
So he's taking refuge in semantics, is he?
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM Oh yes. He confused me, I have a Ph.D and yet he confused me. He's very clever.
TIM SEBASTIAN
If you could come back more clearly then, will you?
ADEL DARWISH
Well, I'll come back more clearly. Let's go back to the motion. Let's see, it's very clearly here, it says 'Arab governments'.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
Yes.
ADEL DARWISH
It does not say 'some'. Had it said 'some Arab governments', perhaps I would have supported you.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
You know that every rule has an exception, every rule, even in physics, the highest proposition, even Einstein.
ADEL DARWISH
You yourself mentioned how the Egyptians had liberal democracy until the 1952 coup.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
Right.
ADEL DARWISH
And why they did it like this, because they were actually voting with their heart.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
No, they didn't vote. When did they vote?
ADEL DARWISH
I said they voted with their hearts, i.e. out on the streets, calling for the name of a dictator who led the nation into several wars.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
Come on, vote with their heart, that's the new definition of vote. How do you know that somebody voted with the heart? Adel, that's acrobatics, that is linguistic … (overlap)
ADEL DARWISH
We are in danger, we are in danger here of actually appealing to the emotions rather than appealing to the mind, because people are going to vote for the motion as a whole, so if one Arab country, like this Arab government here in Qatar, is actually democratic, wholly reformed, that means the motion is contradictory. If you are wrong about one single Arab country, then the structure of the motion is wrong.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
I would like to respond, and I would like, you quoted Ibn Khaldun, Dr Ibrahim, I quote the Koran, 'As you are, you are ruled.' This is a formidable … (overlap)
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
No, it's a formidable verse that we have to really take note of. What worries me is not about the victims and the victimiser. We've been oppressed and ruled and occupied but we still have the mentality of the occupied. As long as we don't differentiate, as long as we don't differentiate that Iraq was occupied by Saddam the same way as it's occupied by America today, and we did not object to that one stage. We will always have the issue that to look for change from within, because we can't differentiate the tyranny. We need to really look in our own societies, look where the fault is. It's so convenient to blame the other, the other here being the government or the West or America or Israel or, there are so many list of blames, it's so convenient, but we refuse to look within. We have refused for the longest time to look within and to correct that. Once that happens, the domino effect is really something to look forward to.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So Arabs get the governments they deserve, that's what you're saying?
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Rime Allaf.
RIME ALLAF
I'm just thinking, we are analysts and clearly arguing on the premise on the premise of the semantics or the wording of the motion is difficult. I think we all understand here that there are always exceptions to the general rule, and clearly we are sitting here talking about this means that Qatar is one of the exceptions. That goes without saying. But it would be nearly impossible to discuss each case on its own merits or on its own faults, and therefore by speaking in general, we also say that even in the exceptions, there is still a far and long way to go before that perfection and freedom in the lack of knowledge and in the empowerment of all members of society which the United Nations has said were the major deficiencies in the Arab world, there's still a long way to go before all of these are changed. So even in the exceptions which have begun on the really good path of changing this, there's a long way to go and we have to question whether they are applying all their efforts into making that a reality.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hussein Shobokshi, you want to come back in.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Again, there is no such thing as an Arab nation or an Arab world or an Arab umma, let's be very clear about this. There is something called the old Arabs and the new Arabs, old Arabs being Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Algeria. These are passé, finished. New Arabs, Jordan, Tunisia, Qatar, Bahrain, Dubai are sources of new economic and maybe with a small p, political excitement in the area. These are really areas worth looking at. There are opportunities, there are challenges that are being met head on to create some ways and trends of interest. Again, I won't use the word 'victims' here unfortunately. I still insist they are not victims, they are partners in these crimes. The people, as long as they accept this, they're partners, because they, look, they have paying the price in East Europe, in Chile, all over the world. If you want to change South Africa, 800 years of fighting in various kinds, but they paid the price and they have made changes take place. They weren't waiting for room service to deliver reform or Internet to deliver reform. Unfortunately the Arabs have been begging for reform to come through DHL in this part of the world. We need to do something about it. The only way to do it is face inward, look inward, deal with it inward. We're not doing enough of that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We as citizens, you mean?
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
We are citizens of this region, yes.
RIME ALLAF
Are you calling for revolution then? Is that the only way to bring reform forth?
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
No.
RIME ALLAF
Because this is not … (overlap)
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Look at what happened in East Europe, specifically the Czech Republic. They didn't go, there was not a drop of blood and they were ruled 70 years of, I would certainly think we would consider the Soviet Union as worse rulers than the Arab heads of states we have today, and yet they managed to transform themselves rather smoothly into the new era without any issues. Singapore, Malaysia, the same thing, and many other issues. India, I can learn so much from India, and they have their own sets of problems with racial and religious and differences, social differences, but they're trying to do something about it. They've had a Hindu extreme government in power for quite some time but they still confronted them and threw them out, so they're doing something. We need to learn from these people and apply them internally. We still think we are a superior race, and we're not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very quickly.
RIME ALLAF
That's because most people in India, when they try to speak about reform, to organise a civil society in order to undertake something, most of them are not thrown into jail or mistreated or tortured in any way and this is a major factor that you are refusing to accept, that the people who are trying to, or your argument is, you know, not focusing on, the people who are trying to undertake reform or to move their societies forwards are immediately stopped by, for the most part, ruthless governments who will not allow them to even have the freedom of speech which is regretted.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
I'm sorry, the government does not hire or appoint a sheikh or a head of a tribe who insists on leading me in his car by only looking at the rear-view mirror. We need to look forward to develop and improve. We insist on looking at books that quote things 700 years ago and think these are the references that … (overlap)
RIME ALLAF
Because the government appoints the sheikhs and the … (overlap)
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
No, no, no, no, it's my choice to quote this guy, no, I'm sorry. It is my choice, I tune in to TV, it's my choice to do that.
RIME ALLAF
It is not your choice when that edict becomes the law of the country and you are forced to follow it.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
When satellites came and Internet came, it became a choice, and I decided to look elsewhere. I look at the chaos, the healthy chaos that is taking place in the Arab world, to look for a choice and an alternative.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr Ibrahim, you wanted to say something.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
No, I basically wanted to say that our colleagues here on the other side of the panel have found this evening every excuse in order to absolve governments from blame and they are blaming the people. They are even blaming them for not sacrificing enough. Let me just give you a very short list of the sacrifices.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very short.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
Algerians: 200,000 dead in the last ten years, fighting for democracy. The Iraqis: a million-and-a-half internally, not to mention those who died in the Iran-Iraq War. Sudanese: 3 million people died fighting for their rights against military dictatorship, who sometimes ruled in the name of Islam, sometimes ruled in the name of Arab-dom and so on. So our people are not shirking from sacrifice. They have sacrificed every one.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, you've heard the arguments both for and against the motion. It's now time for you to have your say. We have roving microphones so what I would ask is that you would please raise your hand and we'll get a microphone to you as soon as possible. Young lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
How does he (Shobokshi) reply to the fact that we in our schools, in the Arab schools, we don't learn how to discuss, how to challenge, how to criticise the knowledge that we're gaining, and even the knowledge that we're being taught is really old and it doesn't change through the years, so if we're not taught how to deal with women rights or racism, how can we do that as educated people, and we're the educated people. What about the uneducated? So how can we rebel against it or try to change anything if we're not taught to do so?
TIM SEBASTIAN
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Where did you learn to ask me this question?
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
I went to international schools.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Where was that school?
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
Here.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
So there are choices. You've decided, your parents decided to give you that opportunity. They were responsible enough to give you an option. These options might be limited. They might be looking for another book by another author. They might be looking for another magazine, another radio station. Knowledge is becoming more democratic. Information no longer is the privilege of the few who had access to it. Now you have more options. You decide to tune into one station, no Internet, no newspaper, have two friends and limit your sources, but you have more options today and therefore you're more responsible of the decisions you make.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
Yeah but Arab governments don't provide their people with the education. I had to pay more than any other Arab had to pay to get that education.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
The options I've given you just a second ago are cheaper, more universal. Yes, yes, education is going to be important, I am not under-estimating that at all, but it's the principle, the concept itself.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
Yeah, but we're a minority, sir, we're a minority. The majority don't learn that. Like, you know, how come we don't learn modern history? We're usually learning the old history. We don't learn about the new nationalities, like the new races that are in the Arab countries. We don't learn how many religions we have in our country, so how can we deal with it, like you saying that we're most, like in Lebanon, they're kind of sexist, so they're not learning in their schools how not to be sexist, so they just grow up to be kind of sexist.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Isn't that over-simplifying it? So be a sexist you have to learn not to be a sexist?
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
No, but if you're not … (overlap)
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
You imitate. No, you don't have, it's either right or wrong.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we make that your final point. There are lots of people in the audience who want to ask questions. Thank you very much. Lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
You talk about the revolution that took place in Czechoslovakia when the Communist government collapsed there, but it is my understanding that that all started when Gorbachev's administration in the USSR started initiating reforms within their own government that allowed for the way in more choice to be placed within those Eastern European governments, so how can you say that it was the people who initiated the revolution when in fact that revolution was initiated by Gorbachev's administration above?
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Oh, of course I need to blame the people because, if you remember, Gorbachev's decision was not exclusively to the Czech Republic. It was for the entire Eastern Europe, but the Czech Republic wanted a peaceful means. The rest were bloody, were chaotic, were completely destructive. The Czech divided themselves into two nations Czech and Slovak, peacefully, without a single drop of blood. That was a people's choice. That's what I mean.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The point is, how can you blame the people for not initiating it?
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
No, but it was initiated. Gorbachev was a man of reality, I think to simplify the argument, I won't go into that. He saw the writing on the wall. There were enough bubbles in the pot that the situation was going basically boil over.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
Yes, of course there were but he was the person who first … (overlap)
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
No.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
Not him but his administration.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
It's over-simplifying that he was the person.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
I'm sorry, his time, his period, his administration … (overlap)
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Yeah, his period is a collection of many signs, many signs driven by the people. You know, remember the strikes in Poland when they started going against the government, they decided they wanted actually … (overlap)
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
You are absolutely right. If the people are ready, willing, sure they were willing, they wanted change, but it never started. Why? Because they were afraid to say it.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
No. In Poland it was … (overlap)
TIM SEBASTIAN
But your point is that people here are afraid, is that right? Your point here is that people here are afraid.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
Yes. If you're talking about people in Syria or people in all of those countries that you mentioned, how are we supposed to be blamed for something if the Eastern Europeans, when they started their revolutions, that was because of the leeway that the government was giving them. They were no longer afraid.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
For over 70 years you're trying to convince me that there weren't enough brave people in East Europe that went to jail and died before Mr. Gorbachev woke up and decided to write a book about glasnost or perestroika?
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
There is an example right there. He (pointing at Dr Ibrahim) went to jail for what he believed in.
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Exactly, exactly, so we have, my point is, if can clone Dr Ibrahim or we have more of Dr Ibrahim, Dr Ibrahim is by the way part of the people, no?
TIM SEBASTIAN
The lady at the back there.
AUDIENCE Q (FEMALE)
I forgot your name, I think Mr Darwish. You were talking about intentions and like rulers' intentions, but I don't see why I would care about a ruler's intention if I were oppressed and I weren't happy. What do I care about that person's intention? I'm not God, I don't care, as long as me and my children aren't happy, what does it matter what their intentions are?
TIM SEBASTIAN
She's saying you're splitting hairs. 
ADEL DARWISH
Well, again the way the motion was constructed. Had the motion been written differently, I wouldn't be here in this position, on the other side perhaps. But we're just talking about the motion here. You're not actually asking me to vote whether Arab rulers are democratic or not, whether Arab regimes are applying reform and democracy or not. You are asking me to vote for a motion as it is.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The gentleman right at the back.
AUDIENCE Q (MALE)
We need I think among those honorable guests a historian to talk about history, not only the Arab world history but the world history and how people and nations have achieved their goals and went and got democracy and freedom. It was always through blood, tears and struggle. Why should we make the Arab population as an exception? Why? The Arab population is not ready today for a form for democracy. In the next two years there will be three or four elections in Arab countries, and one day there is 99.9% yes for the president or for the ruler, but the next day nothing happens. From the American Revolution through the French Revolution through the fall of the Wall in Berlin, it has always been through struggle. We are not struggling in the Arab world. We are passive.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr Ibrahim.
DR SAAD EDDIN IBRAHIM
I disagree with you that we are passive. I think in every Arab country there are people - don't ever under-estimate the few people who are determined to bring about change. That is how history changes, from the time of the Prophets, it was always a small group of determined people, but in their determination, they were speaking for the majority, and talking about intention, we are not here into inquisition, to think of intentions of rulers, what are they going to intend. What matters is behaviour, is actual decisions, and I take issue with Arabs voting. That's why I mentioned it. Egyptians had the first election back in 1866. In 1923 when they had their first constitution after independence, another. The percentage of people who went to the ballot box in 1924 election were 80% of those eligible for vote. Palestinian election back in 1996, again the turnout for voting was over 80%, and that's what we mentioned in India. We mentioned South Africa. There is eagerness. People may look apathetic, may seem indifferent, only because they either were frightened. A few years ago an Iraqi dissident wrote a book about The Republic of Fear, about the 1001 ways in which the Saddam Hussein regime frightened the Iraqis into submission, so people sometimes may be not indifferent, they are just afraid and that is the important thing. It is not indifference, it is not apathy, it is fear. However, whenever they are given the chance, and that's why I mentioned all the examples, from Egypt. Sudan, Sudan twice in the last century over two dictatorships, civil society in Sudan was able to bring down the military dictatorship of Ibrahim Abboud and then of Gaafar Nimeiri, so there are people who struggle and fight. Algerians did and so on, so do not under-estimate, there are people, do not mistake their quietness for apathy or for indifference. It may be fear, it may be lack of opportunity, it may be the repeated attempts that have failed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (MALE)
First of all, to the side who are for the motion, don't you think, Mr Ibrahim, that the example of Sudan, as the civil society has changed or removed regimes, and then revert the fact to dictatorships - isn't that life? Governments are part of society. I mean, are the Arab governments considered aliens to the Arabic society, aren't they part of the Arab society?
HUSSEIN SHOBOKSHI
Yes. What I'm saying is that people have tried. The fact that dictators come back, do you know how they come back? They come back using a military coup d'état, using the army, tanks, vehicles, guns, so the people declare their choice, bring them down after they suffered, and then a few years later, the army stages a coup d'état, so all dictatorships in the Arab world have been the result of army coup d'état.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I ask RIME ALLAF to say something.
RIME ALLAF
Yes, I'd like to add two figures that we've already mentioned which we seem to forget. 150 million Arabs are sidelined from the process in society, in economics and politics, that's women. 20% of the Arab world lives under the poverty line as defined by the UN, that's less than $2 a day. We have 65 million illiterates. The point I'm making is that we here are quite elite compared to the vast majority of the Arab world. The vast majority are not given the choice to make a choice. They're not given the possibility of reacting to something imposed upon them, which is all the more reason why it's the duty of people in power to help those less fortunate, but with the suppression of rights and the suppression of wealth and the suppression of knowledge, this is how you achieve a society that for all its might is incapable of answering, especially when laws are passed by governments making it illegal to even question. I'm talking about emergency laws that have been in power in Egypt for 22 years, in Syria for 41 years, and I can name many others. So there's a lot of obstacles that you're asking for a vast majority of people who are incapable of doing these changes. It is up to the people in power to give them some leeway to do it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. I'm sorry we've come to the end of our time here. I want to thank especially our speakers who have done a wonderful job tonight, and their kindness for coming here. I want to thank you too for your participation and for your attention. My thanks also to the Qatar Foundation for providing us this wonderful venue, and to all the staff who've worked so hard to make this happen. Thank you very much. Also to Qatar TV for the splendid technical assistance that they've provided us. Thank you to you too. We'll be back again next month. The motion before the house will be that 'This House believes in the separation of mosque and state'. We hope that you'll want to come and join us again in a repeat of what has been, I think, a rather unique event.

TIM SEBASTIAN

Thank you all very much. Please stay behind. Thank you. (applause) And before you leave, we're going to vote. We won't miss the vote. All those in favour of the motion that 'This House believes Arab governments are not interested in genuine reform', all those please raise your hands. So roughly, we need a count, we need a count. All right, all those against the motion, please raise your hand. I think the motion is carried pretty resoundingly. Thank you all very much indeed, good night, thank you.