This House believes it is time for the Arab League to disband

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. In 1945, seven states got together to form the Arab League with the aim of ensuring better conditions for all of them and better co-ordination among their governments. Today there are 22 states in the League, hailed by some as a glorious vehicle for projecting Arab influence, and condemned by others for being ineffectual, outdated and a failure in all its objectives. Our motion tonight is 'This House believes it is time for the Arab League to disband' and where better to debate that than here in one of its member states, Qatar. Speaking for the motion, Shafeeq Ghabra, who was Founding President of the American University of Kuwait and a long-time advocate of democratic reform in the region, and with him Chibli Mallat, a recent Lebanese Presidential candidate and Human Rights campaigner. He was a leading opponent of extending the term of the Lebanese President Emile Lahoud. Against the motion not surprisingly is Hesham Youssef, who if Chief of Cabinet of the Arab League's current Secretary General Amre Moussa. He formerly held the post of official spokesperson for the League, and with him is Azmi Bishara, an Arab Israeli politician, a member of the Israeli Parliament, the Knesset, and the first Arab Israeli to run for election as Prime Minister of the country, so clearly he's never minded taking on impossible causes. Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. And now let me call first on Shafeeq Ghabra to speak for the motion.

SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Well, it's not easy to be first but I will basically say something that maybe if I was asked this question a year or two ago, I wouldn't have made the point that the Arab League has become very much irrelevant. It has been diminished, it has undermined reform when the issue of reform was suggested in the Arab world. The Arab League in a way just absorbed it and did nothing about it. The Arab League has not been able to do anything in Iraq, neither to help, to stop, whether during sanctions or during the war or after the war. The Arab League has not been able to help after the assassination of Hariri, has not been able to do anything in Darfur with all the international images of human rights abuses in the Sudan. The Arab League has not been able to help us in a transitional stage, in a very complicated stage that the Arab world is going through now: democracy, human rights, development, education, all the basic issues and ingredients that can make a better Arab world have not been dealt with, have not been touched, but on the contrary have been frozen through the Arab League, and in many ways it has become an expression of Arab weakness, it has become an expression of an Arab status quo that is increasingly problematic for all of us. The Arab League was supposed to represent us, represent all of us in its ability to speak for us. We don't feel it, we don't see it, and it is in that context that I feel something dramatic has to happen and it's in that context that I believe whether it stays or it goes, we won't feel that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Shafeeq Ghabra, thank you very much. You want to disband the Arab League at a time when Arabs need more co-ordination, more integration than ever; at a time of multiple crises you want to take away the one organisation that speaks for them? Why?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
In many ways that organisation has become part of the problem. I will call for alternatives.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why the organisation is the problem? Why not the members who make it up?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Other members and other organisations in the Arab world could make a better approach to dealing with issues.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Like which? Which for instance?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
The Gulf Corporation Council for instance, the Gulf Corporation Council of the GCC has been more effective in dealing with the issues related to the Arab world.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why? What's it achieved that the Arab League hasn't?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Economics, politics, travel, development.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What? Those are just words, what has it achieved? Looking at a concrete agreement that it's reached.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
I came from Kuwait.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Did it do anything in Iraq that you mentioned?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
I came from Kuwait to Qatar on a civil ID. I did not have to go through any of the complications or the bureaucracy that are naturally used in relation to between Arab states.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who prevented Iraq from attacking Kuwait in 1960? The Arab League.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Exactly. That was the height.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Exactly, big achievement.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
That was the height. However, 1967 was a turning point. 1967 was the beginning of the diminishing and the beginning of retreat for the Arab League, and it is now time to look for alternative organisations and maybe through this programme we can look for alternative.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why not alternative politicians to make up the Arab League? It's only as good as the people you put into it, isn't it?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
That's a very long process. What we need is a dramatic situation right now that can bring about an awakening of our possibilities. As long as the Arab League gives us today a sense that the Arab world is OK, we're not going to look for alternatives. It's the vacuum that we may need and it's the vacuum that can allow us together as a group in Arab states and as a group ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So no marks for trying, no marks for trying, just disband it with nothing viable to put in its place, you just throw it all away. Easy to walk away, isn't it, easy to say it?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Not easy to walk away. The Arab League as it stands now ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You don't have to make it work. He does but you don't. Easy for you to say.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Right, but then the Arab League as it stands now is becoming irrelevant whether you keep it or you abolish it, it is not affecting us; it is not touching our lives.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're answering your own argument. You're saying you want to disband it, so that's not irrelevant, is it?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
So whether you keep it or you disband it, it is becoming irrelevant, and therefore disbanding it could create the conditions for the alternative ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Shafeeq Ghabra, thank you very much.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
... and go for the alternative. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you. Now let me call please on Hesham Youssef to speak against the motion.

HESHAM YOUSSEF
Well, thank you very much. I think saying that the Arab League should be disbanded and there's nothing in its place, I think is the wrong argument. I would like to start by challenging the premise on which this motion is based. Saying that the Arab League should be disbanded means that you have studied the situation in the region and have reached a conclusion that, 'Well, disband the Arab League or keep it; it's irrelevant, so let's disband it.' I think this is very superficial. I think you needed to have made a much stronger argument if this is your objective. I look at the Arab world, I see there is a problem, absolutely, I think we will all agree, but if I were to look for a solution, as far as I'm concerned, the solution is reform, whether it's political, economic, social, society, you name it, this is the solution, not to disband the Arab League, that's the easy route. Second, the whole world is going through a process of regionalism. Every single country in the world is trying to join a region in order to cater for its interests. Now we in the Arab world have a mechanism and we want to disband it because we have problems? Absolutely we have problems, but we should be looking on how we can solve these problems, rather than taking the easy route and saying: 'Well, disband.' Shafeeq was saying that, he gives us the sense that the Arab world is OK. This is not true. We never gave the sense that the Arab world is OK, and if this is what we felt that the Arab League was doing, then he is much mistaken. We have been working very hard on all kinds of issues including the issue that he said that we undermine, the issue of reform. The report of the UN debate that criticised the Arab world was launched from the Arab League. Why? Because we believe that to be critical is fine, but you have to be objective. There are things that we objected to in the report, we didn't agree with all the elements of the report, but we felt that we should be doing this criticism from the Arab League and try to see what can be done. Exclusively that is the message. Every single organisation in the world has been criticised, whether it's the UN, the African Union, you name it, but I feel that this is the time that we should be protecting and advancing our interest through the Arab League. There are problems in the Arab world that cannot be solved unilaterally by any single country however big it is. Let me give you something examples. The image of the Arabs abroad, it's a big problem. I don't think that any country in the Arab world, whether it's Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, you name it, I don't think that any of these countries can solve this issue on its own. We have to do this collectively, issues like terrorism, issues like environment and so on, so this is why we need the Arab League and this is why I think that this motion is misplaced.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hesham Youssef, thank you very much indeed. It's a dismal record though, isn't it, even if you want to keep the organisation, a dismal record. You set out in your charter to 'serve the common good of Arab countries, to ensure better conditions for all Arabs, to fulfil the hopes and expectations of all Arab countries,' and yet in the UN report that you cited, in 2005 when it was released, it said: 'Liberty is curtailed and oppression is the norm in the Arab world.' That's not much of an achievement for the Arab League, is it? That's dismal, isn't it?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
That doesn't mean that we should surrender and say, 'Well ...'
TIM SEBASTIAN
It means it failed.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Well, of course we have many failures, but we have many successes as well.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So set against that, where your people live in at atmosphere where 'liberty is curtailed and oppression is the norm,' oppression is the norm.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, oppression, I don't think that oppression is the norm.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you disagree with the report that you cited a moment ago.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Yes, of course. I said there are elements in the report that we disagree with. The issue is not that oppression is the norm or not. The issue is much more fundamental.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It is, because you are committed to getting rid of oppression.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Yes, of course, we are committed to that, but this does not mean that it is easy. The process of democratisation in the whole world has not been an easy process.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You don't want to be judged on results then?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You want to be judged on intentions?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, no, not on intentions, on results, but what I'm saying is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And that's the result, oppression is the norm.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Hold on. What I'm saying is the process of democratisation was not an easy process. Whether it was in the United States, whether in the UK, whether in France, that started violently, whether in Germany that had several setbacks in the process of democratisation, it is not an easy process, but you can't argue that you don't have a healthy debate in the Arab world on all kinds of issues. You name it. Whether it's ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
A healthy debate with oppression at the end of it.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Still not great.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's still not great.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
With change at the end of it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm sure you're going to get some questions about that in a minute.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
With change at the end, of course, with change at the end, and there is progress. In many Arab countries, in relation to the process of democratisation, have we reached a level that we can all be proud of? Of course not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've had 60 years of this, you've had 60 years and you haven't achieved basic rights ...
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, no. Let me ask you a question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... for your population, 60 whole years.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
How many years did it take the United States to become the democracy that it is?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, we're talking about the Arab League here; we're talking about what you've signed up to, in international agreements, and what all the countries of the Arab League have signed up to.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Absolutely, but I'm also ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Centuries ago no countries had signed up to anything. You've signed up to a commitment, you either keep it or you don't.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Well, yes, it is a difficult process and I submit that it is a difficult process, but we have to continue our efforts.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Hesham Youssef, thank you very much indeed.Let me now call on Chibli Mallat, please, to speak for the motion.

CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, I think very few people including colleagues on the other side of the motion will deny the fact that there have been many failures, so many failures that one mild depiction of the Arab League is that it is inefficient, it is inefficient as Dr. Ghabra said, because on the major issues that the Arabs have faced, whether it's Iraq, Palestine or Lebanon, there is not much to show for. Indeed, in 2002 at the Arab summit in the Lebanon, two tragic examples of the inefficiency were apparent. One was the fact that an order had been given to all the Arab ministers and heads of state who were there not to visit any of the Palestinian camps, the other element of course being that the Arab summit had zero effect on Israel. Not only is it inefficient, it's also I think that it has become counter-productive. It has become counter-productive because we need other vehicles for change in the region and the Arab League stands in the way of those changes, and Hesham, it is not the easy route. On the contrary, the status quo is the easy route. What you're suggesting, not to face the problem that the Arab League has become so counter-productive that we have to look at it radically as a way that stands between us and the reform that you are seeking, and standing between us and the reforms we are seeking, because none of the Arab countries is a democratic country, and so far as the system is supporting itself and the example that we have seen in the self-perpetuation of the system was most glaring in the latest Arab summit when the head of the hosting country, Sudan, did not utter a single word with regard to the most tragic development that the planet is seeing nowadays, which is the situation in Darfur. So not only is it counter-productive, I think that what we have seen and the descent to tragedy with the continuation of the Arab League as it is, an inefficient and counter-productive vehicle for us Arabs is the fact that the Arab League has become unfortunately a sham. It is corrupt; we know that Egypt controls the League. I find it extraordinary that Egypt not only forces the Arab summits now from next year on to take place in Sharm el Sheikh, which I find extraordinary as a development, but the only thing tangible that you have seen at the Sudan summit, the only effective dimension that you have seen is a reconduction of the mandate of the current Secretary, the boss of Mr. Youssef into the Arab League, an exact reproduction of all the other Arab countries whose main problem is the fact that the person who sits at the helm does not change. So, inefficient, counter-productive, sham and the last, corrupt, and to the issue of what we do with it, I'm afraid the problem is that it is so structurally inept, the Arab League today, that it cannot be reformed. I like others have tried to reform the Arab League. I'm a very fervent supporter of Arab culture and the problem is that you have always hit walls. Just look at the statements of the Arab League and see if it can inspire you to anything but to disband it. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Chibli Mallat, thank you very much indeed. Where are all these other vehicles that you suggest are waiting in the wings to take over from the Arab League?
CHIBLI MALLAT
It's civic society, we are fighting and ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What does that mean in concrete terms? Are there organisations that could better represent the Arab world than the Arab League? Which ones?
CHIBLI MALLAT
Absolutely. Anything that is not stated, that is outside the organisation . ..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, give me an example.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, I'll give you an example of what we have been doing as groups in the Arab world that come together in various places, civic societies ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But these are disparate groups, they come together on a single issue.
CHIBLI MALLAT
We don't have any other dimension because the states are against us.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is there an organisation that tries to set standards, tries to set principles, at a time of chaos, at a time of violence and at a time of desperation for certain people, and you want to junk the one organisation that can do that Arab-wide?
CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, if the principle is to stand for the atrocities for Darfur, yes, I want to change it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why do they stand for the atrocities in Darfur? In 2004 they sent a team there to investigate and talked about massive violations of human rights. That's not remaining silent about it.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, I think that there is universal acceptance today, including with the fact that the issue's being referred to the ICC, that Darfur is a tragic development that has much to do with the ineptitude of the President of the Sudan.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It keeps alive the vision of a better future though, doesn't it? This is a dream in the Arab world, it articulates the dream and it works, you can argue about whether it's successful, but it works towards it.
CHIBLI MALLAT
I don't think any one of us here would agree with you, Tim, that the Arab League is the dream. We as Arabs are looking for the dream, certainly not the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'll put the same point to you as I put to Dr. Ghabra, which is people that are now concerned with making up the numbers inside, the governments, that are the problem, the personalities, not the League itself.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, the League is a collection of governments, that's the problem; it's not a collection of people. We don't see ourselves in the League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So why get rid of the people who are trying to bring fractious, squabbling governments together and make some progress? Who are the people who are doing this?
CHIBLI MALLAT
Who are the people who are doing this?
TIM SEBASTIAN
The Arab League.
CHIBLI MALLAT
But Arab League is a collection of government leaders. You want the government leaders to reform the government leaders?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hesham Youssef is not a government leader. Amre Moussa is not a government leader. He's an employee of the Arab League, he's doing his best to try and bring all these fractious governments together, and you say, 'Goodbye, it's not worth it.'
CHIBLI MALLAT
Look, I think that part of the counter-productive dimension is to have people talented like Mr. Youssef and I think to some extent Mr. Moussa becoming the victims of a system that actually reconducts their positions like in the case of Amre Moussa, without anything to show for it, and uses, and he's used the talents of this poor chap in front of me to plough the field.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Chibli Mallat, thank you very much indeed. Now let me call please on Azmi Bishara to speak against the motion.

AZMI BISHARA
Well, yes, I am for keeping the Arab League. I think that I am against this motion not because the Arab League was counter-productive or productive, certainly not for the issue of democratisation, I don't think it was its mandate to democratise our countries. It is the mandate of democratic forces in every Arab country including politically, it's to reform and democratise Arab countries, it's not in the hands of bureaucrats of the Arab League to democratise Arab countries or to be productive or counter-productive in these issues. The issue here has to do I think much more deeper with Arab identity and this is what is of course for me and this is what worries me, this kind of thinking whether in this motion or other places. You hear now about Iraq, you hear Kurds, Shi'ites and Sunni, you don't even hear the word 'Arabs'. I think there is an effort which is, I stand against it here, which is an effort to the Arab eyes; everything that has to do with Arab or Arab identity should be disbanded, dismantled as if it is the problem. Now, the problem is that if we do not have Arab identity or Arab organisations, or pan-Arab organisations, we will not become French, we will not become Swedish. What we will become is Shi'ites, Sunnis, Muslims, Christians, we will become sects. Now, what is the problem with our national identity, like there are people who are French and people who are Germans, and you have in their history two world wars and Fascism and Nazism. We are Arabs, that's all. Now, Arabs have the right to have Arab organisations. Now, the main Arab organisation is the Arab League, it's of state now. If you want to reform it, the place is not to disband the Arab League but to change the regime in Egypt, to change the regime in Syria, to change the regime in Lebanon, to change the regime in Jordan. What do you have with the Arab League? The Arab League represents states. It is not an NGO, it is not a civil society organisation. It is an inter-state organisation. Because this nation was deprived from its ability to have one nation state like any nation in the world, the Arabs are divided in so many states and societies, and the compromise that they found, which is a very weak compromise, a very poor compromise, is to have this organisation of Arab states. Now, this is all what remains from this yearning for an Arab state or Arab unity etc. This is neither an Arab state nor dividing the Arab country in sects, etc. This is a kind of compromise that I think it has to be kept because I think this effort has no end. The Arab League has nothing to do with Darfur and it's not the worst place on the earth. I think it's a very bad place, Darfur. I think the worse place in the earth now in which atrocities are being held every day is Iraq, where Arab identity is disbanded and the Americans are the vehicle there, not the Arab League, and they brought with them on the tanks what they think is transforming Iraq this way. This is the worst place with the worst crimes now in our region. Now I think Darfur is a problem but the Arab League is not a problem there. The Arab League, the problem there if you want is the Sudanese regime and others, and efforts should be done there but it's not a problem of the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azmi Bishara, thank you very much indeed. Let me just say that I'm going to come to the audience shortly for your questions so please have them ready in a moment. Azmi Bishara, why this sentimental attachment to an organisation that has so manifestly failed to protect the rights of Arabs within the Arab region?
AZMI BISHARA
Well, first of all I think affiliations in general are sentimental, so no problem with sentiments.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, let me put it another way, why an attachment to a tool that doesn't do what it says on the box that it's supposed to do? Why not take it back?
AZMI BISHARA
Well, first of all it's weak but it's keeping a connection between Arab states that they sit even at times of crisis, even at the time of Iraq.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Half the members didn't turn up for the last summit. It's disbanding itself, isn't it?
AZMI BISHARA
Well, no. We won't need this motion if it's disbanding itself, and there will be no need for de-Arabising Iraq if the Arab nation does not exist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Whether we need the motion or not, it is disbanding, isn't it?
AZMI BISHARA
No, I don't think so. I think it's ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nine out of 22 didn't go to ...
AZMI BISHARA
I think there are some Arab regimes who want to keep stronger relationships with the US and even with Israel, than with other regimes who want it to be disbanded. This is another reason why I don't want it to be disbanded, because disbanding it means giving legitimacy for having stronger relationships with Israel or with Americans or etc. than with other Arab regimes and I think some Arab regimes wouldn't like it, it's embarrassing for them, and I want them to be embarrassed, yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yet isn't the reason that the problems in your region are so intractable because you hang on to the same mechanisms decade after decade, which have proved that they don't work, simply for the reasons that you've just outlined.
AZMI BISHARA
Tim, inter-states organisations, multi-national organisations, in this case it's not multi-national, is one of the tools, yes. The problem is the political regimes, the political culture in this country, not the fact that you have an organisation. I can give you examples, in cases where the UN was counter-productive, corrupt, bad, etc. Nobody said disbanding the UN, no, this is the UN. Here in this case it's the only organisation which connects all the Arabs as Arabs, it is all what they have of the whole colonial inheritance.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you're saying with all the creativity and all the intellectual capital of the Arab world, they can't come up with anything better, is that what you're saying?
AZMI BISHARA
They can come up with better and it should be done in the Arab countries and translated in changing Arab countries that are undemocratic. I think Arab capacities, intellectual etc. are kept outside the Arab world because of the kind of political system that prevails in the Arab world. I don't think that the hindrance, that the obstacle is the Arab League. I don't think, I mean, you are giving it too much value than it is, if you keep the flame for the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azmi Bishara, thank you very much indeed.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Now, let me take some questions from the floor. There's a lady in the third row.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Tim, there is something that I have to respond to. Mr. Chibli said that the Arab League is corrupt. I don't think that accusations of that kind should be levelled without proof, and I think this is a very serious accusation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to answer that?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Listen, we can talk about political problems ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him answer the specific point that you raised.
CHIBLI MALLAT
I think it's extraordinary that someone who is being accused of genocide in his own country stands and uses the system which is called the Arab League to put himself forward as a gatherer of Arabs. I think this is the ultimate corruption. The corruption is for someone like Mr. Mubarak who is third in line after two other Pharaohs in staying in power for so long, to remain in power for so long.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Are we here to attack leaders and presidents? Is this why we're here?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, you're here to discuss.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Yes, we're here to discuss.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're free to make the points you want and he's free to make the points he wants.
AZMI BISHARA
It's an internal question, leaders should be changed not in inter-states organisations but in their own country, that's not the place, the Arab League is not the place.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Dr. Ghabra, very briefly. There are a lot of questions in the audience and I want to go for them.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Very briefly. The Arab League, on two issues, one of the problems of the Arab League, that it is based on membership that you only speak Arabic and you have to be an independent Arab country. This was the colonial era that put us together in the Arab League. The reality is; membership should be based on style of governments, what you do inside your country, economic development, basic ingredients that relate to ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. There are a lot of questions there, and we'll have an opportunity to debate these issues in detail. We raised the issue of corruption because you wanted to address it. Please, gentlemen. Lady in the third row, please let us have your question.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This is directed at the speakers for the motion. I'm going to start with the classic saying, 'When life gives you lemon, make lemonade, ' so we should consider the Arabic countries as lemons and the Arab League as lemonade, so why do we fall down? To learn to pick ourselves up, so why do we have to abandon something that we've been working so long and hard for? We have the potential as Arab countries and we should prove the public are wrong. What do you think about that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Chibli Mallat.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, I agree with you. The problem is the vehicle. I think that when I say it's counter-productive, there are so many talents in the Arab world and we're being let down all the time by this Arab League. We've tried time and again to reform it. I have been myself to the Arab League on one occasion, in Cairo, where we were supposed to debate reform, and that was the time when Saad Eddin Ibrahim was in prison, so it gives you an idea of the extraordinary gap that there is between the lemons and the lemonade, and to the extent that the lemonade does not correspond at all to what we deserve, I think it's better to avoid it and try to find out something else.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
What do we do then?
CHIBLI MALLAT
Look, I'll give you a very simple example. We're living in Qatar today and Tim has asked about a better vehicle. I think we need to be much more modest until there is a change in the overall Arab system that allows us to get something else. The example is very simple and Hesham mentioned the issue of the image of the Arab abroad. Today in Qatar there is an extraordinary meeting of Arab scientists, all these people we have lost to the West. They are mostly in the West, giving all the talents that they have, their brains, to the West. There is a small foundation here, compared to the Arab League, called The Qatar Foundation, that for the first time in history brings them together. The Arab League has been ...
AZMI BISHARA
Small country with a big foundation.
CHIBLI MALLAT
... 51 years and they weren't able to bring us anything even remote to that very small symbolic dimension ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let me bring Hesham Youssef in here.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Now, to argue that countries are not reforming or they are not changing because of the presence of the Arab League is ludicrous. You know, why isn't any country changing its educational system or its health-care system or its transportation system, or advancing its process of democratisation? Is it because the Arab League in Cairo is preventing it from doing so, so the Arab League is preventing the countries that are eager for reform but the Arab League is preventing them from doing so? I think this is unbelievable. You can't make an argument of that nature and get away with it. You know, reform is important, and we have to advance in reform, whether it's political, economic or social, you name it, but you can't blame the Arab League for governments not reforming, and in relation to the difficulties that we have, we have all kinds of difficulties. If we can't resolve the issue of Iraq, you can't say the Arab League is the problem because we can't solve the issue of Iraq; we can't solve the issue of Palestine so the Arab League is the problem; you can't resolve the issue of Darfur so the Arab League is the problem. If there is a problem of political will in dealing with many of these issues, not only in the Arab world but also at the international level, then you have to find out what the problem is and how to resolve it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him come back on that.
CHIBLI MALLAT
I think that there is a profound difference in my view with yours and Azmi's, and I'll give you two simple examples. You say the Arab League is a symptom. It's not only a symptom, it is part and parcel of a system that is standing in front of reform; I'll give you two examples.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, please, very, very briefly. There are a lot of people waiting.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Saying they are part of the problem, the Arab League is part of the problem. The reason today that we have sent a motion, 71 M.P.'s out of 188 Lebanese M.P.'s sent a motion to the Arab League at the last summit to say, 'Our current president is illegitimate.' What has the Arab League done with it? Zero. It has embraced an illegitimate president.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let's move on to the gentleman in the second row. Your question please sir, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you. I think that Arab League is representing police states. The Arab League was keeping silence about the chemicals that Saddam was using against the Kurds, the crimes that was used in the south, the inhuman practices in Darfur. Why was the Arab League keeping people like us blind? Why has the Arab League never spoken about dictatorship used against the Arab persons and Arab man like me?
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you want to see it disbanded.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes. I am saying that the Arab League is representing such dictators and that is why it was not promoting human rights and democracy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, and your question is to this side of the argument?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes. My question is, why all the lies about the Arab League, why the lies in the media about democracy, about human rights, while the practices are different, where, you know, the Arabs for so many years, we are treated very badly in the states.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Hesham Youssef would you like to answer that?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Thank you very much. You see, I think the issue of democracy and the issue of human rights is very important, but what you are arguing is that the Arab countries were silent and in many cases we made mistakes, and we have to admit that we made mistakes, absolutely we made mistakes, but then this is the nature of things. Many countries in the world are blaming ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
He was talking about lies, not just mistakes.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
What lies? Did we say that nothing happened to the Kurds? Did we say that nothing happened in Darfur? You mentioned a report that has come up from the Arab League that was critical of the situation in Darfur and the practices in Darfur.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, it did get buried though, didn't it, and never referred to again once it had come out.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, no. It didn't get buried and it was used, and as a matter of fact this was the first report that came out of a regional or an international organisation of that nature.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to come back on that, what he said?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes. I am saying that they are not being truthful because how do you expect people in the streets to have some respect, to believe in the Arab League, that it is representing people like me, millions of people are in this region. What they are saying is completely different than what they're practising. We don't believe in the Arab League, this is the problem there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azmi Bishara, do you want to come in on this?
AZMI BISHARA
But I don't think, I mean, the Arab League is being treated as if it's a political regime. It is not, it's a political organisation, official organisation of states and I think there are things that it's more complaining actually than a motion, specific motion for specific target which is disbanding the Arab League. Of course we all complain from the lack of democracy in the Arab world, in any states. There is not one Arab democratic state in the Arab world. How do you want the Arab League to look like? The question of the Arab man in the Arab state, the Arab citizen does not elect the Arab League, exactly like the world citizen does not elect the UN, and I think if you go even to Europe, you will find it very hard to mobilise British people or French to go to vote for the EC, for the European Commission, because you don't have the direct contact, they are not ruling. You usually blame and criticise, and I believe democratic forces should do more than complaining and criticising anything Arab, adopting or even internalising racist ideas about ourselves. Do something about Arab regimes in the Arab countries, not blame Arab culture and Arab League and Arab language and Arab identity, this is not a problem. I think we are internalising racism.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, we'll take a question from the gentleman at the back, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much. For the gentlemen that are against the motion, I have a question. If the current failures do not qualify as enough reasons for the Arab League to disband, what would qualify them?
AZMI BISHARA
Arab unity in one state; you won't need the Arab League any more if you unify Arab countries.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's not asking you that. He's asking you if you don't think it should be disbanded now, what would make you want to disband it?
AZMI BISHARA
Arab countries become democratic. I believe that you will have something like the European Union, voluntary Arab unity of Arab countries. In that case you won't need this kind of organisation, but this is the slightest common denominator that we have in the region that reflects the fact that this is an Arab region. There is a debate in this part of the world whether there is Arab world, Arab region, Arab nationality or not, and actually what are we doing? We are helping this debate. They are advising Arabs, they are advising Arabs means they won't be something else. They will be sects, tribes fighting each other, that's what's happening in Iraq. Ask me, somebody who thinks that Arab identity is important as a minority inside Israel, I will tell you Israel would like to turn us into religions and tribes and clans, and I'm fighting for keeping the Arab identity and I hear people outside speaking about the no need for Arab identity. I think this is an issue of keeping the slightest, weakest common denominator that we are allowed to keep after the colonial era. If we're allowed to have one state, that's great with me, one state of voluntarily united, democratic Arab state, that would be nice.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much. Gentleman in the front row. Remember questions also for this side of the argument as well. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to Shafeeq. You said that there is a problem in the Arab League, and you just you want to disband it. Why didn't you bring anything to replace that, and you know that disbanding a bad organisation and not replacing it will cause a bigger problem. Don't you believe that bad leadership is better than nothing?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Shafeeq Ghabra.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Well, you see, reforming the Arab League is problematic. In 2004 there was this talk about reforming the Arab League and having a common market and the vote will be different. Nothing happened; six years in fact, nothing happened in the reform of the Arab League, in fact reforming the regime of Hilasilasi of Ethiopia during the times of Hilasilasi. It will not get us anywhere. It is not doing anything in the tribal sectarian war in Iraq. It is not doing anything in what is going on in Palestine, it is not doing anything anywhere, and therefore disbanding it means to me like exactly disbanding a Ministry of Information somewhere in Qatar or in the Arab world. Distribute the organisations that are linked to the Arab League, to the variety of Arab states, let those states, and some of them take responsibility.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Qatar has disbanded its Ministry of Information.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Yes, disbanded its Ministry of Information. You can do the same to the Arab League and still, I mean, you have 12 organisations under the Arab League. None of them is doing anything serious. They are all under budget. They don't even have the salaries to pay at the end of the month. None of the Arab states are paying for them. Find a way, there is an organisation for women, what does it do for women? There is an organisation for trade, what does it do for trade?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him come back on that point. Hesham Youssef.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
You see, it is very unfortunate; you're speaking about something without knowing the basic information of most of these things that you're talking about. You see, I'm not saying that the Arab League is the best institution in the world, far from it, and I know many of the difficulties facing the Arab League more than you can imagine, but I can tell you a lot of success stories about what has been done by many of these organisations, whether it's an organisation for development of agriculture or industrial development, also advance tourism or trade. I have seen tens of business people who have told me that as a result of the treaty area in the Arab world that they have been able to live, and that their businesses have been flourishing. Many investments, inter-Arab investments, tourism in the Arab world, you know, there are many success stories in relation to some of these issues. Some of them are not known to some of you because of the bad publicity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK, shall we move on? We're going to take a question from a lady at the back please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I have a question for Mr. Chibli. I would like to ask if you are criticising the Arab League because it hasn't done anything in Lebanon, when the people in Lebanon itself have not been able to unite. There are so many sectors in Lebanon itself and they have not been able to unite to come up with one decision, so how do you expect the Arab League as a whole to come and solve this problem. Thank you.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Look, I think that there is no doubt that the responsibility for each people is their own responsibility first and foremost, in other words the motion tonight with us is not about what to do with the sectarian system in Lebanon, which I agree is a big problem, and I'm not saying that the motion tonight of disbanding the Arab League has to do with the issue of Lebanon. What I know is that every time there is something related to Lebanon, the Arab League goes in the wrong direction, and I'll give, because Lebanon could be an emotional dimension, personal dimension, but let me get back to Azmi on the issue of Iraq. Back in 2003, a group of Arab individuals, citizens, got together and said, 'Look, we're going to have the Americans occupy Iraq, let's do something about it. Let us put pressure so that Mr. Saddam Hussein leaves power.' Do you think it want anywhere with the Arab League? It went nowhere with the Arab League, it was the responsibility of the Arab League to prevent the war in 2003 and there was a movement from 50 individuals in the Arab world, proud Arabs, who said, 'Mr. Hussein is bringing us a catastrophe, he should go home.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Azmi Bishara wants to answer that, let him come in.
AZMI BISHARA
Well, I mean, because Chibli directed it to me, I think it is a kind of, I mean, either the Arab League changes Saddam Hussein and the United States should come in? It's not the job of either. They could not convince Saddam Hussein, OK, bad for Saddam Hussein, but it doesn't mean that the Arab League should be disbanded because it could not convince Saddam Hussein to leave power. I think the UN won't be able to convince George Bush to leave power, I'm sure of that. This doesn't mean that the UN should be disbanded, you know, and I think that George Bush should leave power, yes, as early as possible, and I don't think that the UN can convince him to do that. It's not an argument. I think Saddam Hussein should have gone earlier, yes, this is true, and the Arab League could not succeed, it's true. This means that the Arab League should be in power, not disbanded, it should be in power. You should give the Arab League more strength, not disband the Arab League.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Very briefly, one on Lebanon and one on Iraq. One on Lebanon in relation to stability in the Arab world. Stability in Lebanon now is as a result of a deal brokered by the Arab League. This is one thing. The second point is in relation to Iraq. The situation in Iraq, it's not only the Arab world that wanted to avoid war. It's the Arab world, France, Germany, Russia, we all tried to avoid the war. We all failed, so why are you blaming the Arab League wholly for failing that? As for the situation in Iraq now, who is trying to broker a process of accord and reconciliation in Iraq now, after everybody else failed? It's the Arab League, and we've been arguing for a process of reconciliation and accord in Iraq for over a year-and-a-half, and no-one responded, but when an opportunity arrived, they didn't accept meeting anywhere in the world except in the Arab League, all the factions of Iraq.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let's move to a question. Lady in the third row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is for the panel against the motion. Why do you defend the Arab League when every time our leaders gather to solve our problems, they agree to disagree? Don't you think that it's time that we as Arabs start looking towards forming a more effective united Arab Union?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azmi Bishara.
AZMI BISHARA
Well, this is a generalisation, Arabs agree to disagree, Arabs do not leave an opportunity to miss an opportunity. These are the generalisations.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But she doesn't feel served by the Arab League.
AZMI BISHARA
OK. I'm not served at all by the Arab League. I don't feel served, I'm not served, the Arab League does not serve me, it does not serve you. Still we can discuss things. I mean, we don't only discuss things that serve us, it doesn't serve me at all; I don't expect anything from the Arab League. I am just suspicious about people who want to disband the Arab League; they want to disband Arabs in general.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let her come back.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
So we see them on TV arguing and not agreeing on anything and sometimes causing scenes, actually embarrassing scenes, so I think that it's time that we start forming a more effective union, other than the Arab League because it's not working.
AZMI BISHARA
Well, I, you know, OK, some Arabs are embarrassed by the fact that they're Arabs.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No.
AZMI BISHARA
I'm not one of these. And I like seeing Arabs not agreeing on everything, I like seeing Arabs debating things and discussing things. Here for example we do not agree and it's called suddenly debate and democracy. Sometimes disagreement is good, sometimes disagreement is bad.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The point she's making is, they're being paid to do more than debate in the Arab League, they're paid to come up with some kinds of decision, isn't that right?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
That's right.
AZMI BISHARA
Well, the question in that case is whether this organisation is an efficient organisation, is it run by voting etc? I think usually inter-state organisations like this who don't have power to impose their will don't like to vote things, they like to agree on things by consent, what we call consensus, because they cannot empower, you can't have a majority to impose things, to dictate things, they don't have an army like the Security Council sometimes now have. Now, they have to agree on things, that's why they have to debate. The problem is not the fact that you disagree or you debate. The question is the people there, the kind of the regimes, their ideas, their thinking what they want to make an Arab League a tool for themselves to impose their will, yes, this is a problem that needs to be changed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you happy with that kind of answer?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, because he says that we should empower the people in the Arab League and so how do you suggest we empower them?
AZMI BISHARA
No, you have to change, you know, we can't be lazy about democracy, expecting the US bringing us to buy ships and changing the Arab League instead of changing our regime. I think there's a kind of laziness of democratic forces in the Arab world who want democracy for them being served sometimes by ships, sometimes by changing the Arab League. Democratic forces have to make democratic actions and therefore not complain about the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Shafeeq Ghabra, you want to make a point here.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
You know, I mean, I think it is very important that the Arab League knows, and it's not about the Arab states now, the Arab League knows that we would want to dismantle it, that we are not happy ...
AZMI BISHARA
So this motion is tactical, OK.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
... and that the Arab League needs to know, because you see, short of that, the Arab world will only move from one defeat to the other, and from one stagnation to the other.
AZMI BISHARA
Then you understand now, the motion is to strengthen the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could he just finish and then we're going to move to another question.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
The Arab League should know that we want to dismantle it and it had better dismantle itself because it is irrelevant. However, one last point. This is the type of the Arab League that we have. It's always accepts others in defeat. Yes, this is the time, this is exactly, and not only that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You have ten more seconds.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
The second problem I have, please hear my second problem, is Azmi, I have a problem with your thinking, and I'll tell you why, Azmi.
AZMI BISHARA
You're not the only one.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
You said, I'm quoting you, you feel suspicious with people, you're suspicious with the other point of view and that's another problem for the Arab world and the Arab League as well.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're going up to a gentleman at the back, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. I just want to mention one thing. None of the panellists, they all mentioned there is no one single democratic experience in the Arab world and they just forgot about the transparent democratic process that just took place in Palestine, so that was one democratic experience, so there is democracy there in the Arab world. Second, I have comments to more than one of the panellists. To Mr. Youssef, when you compare with other organisations that did fail in the world, that's fine, but if the Arab League is going to keep comparing itself with who fails, we're not going to ever succeed. Look at the successes that was in the EU or even the Schengen or what's happening in Latin America right now. Those have achieved things that even the Arab League hasn't achieved any of them, like the borders between the countries, the visas between the citizens. People from outside the Arab world can move within the Arab world more freely than Arab citizens, and I think when you go to Cairo, it's a very good experience when you see some Palestinians, they get trapped in the airport.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, your question is?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is, if they're going to keep talking about whether it's going to dismantle or not, how long is it going to take for these reforms to take place, and if that's not going to happen, then maybe Mr. Ghabra can say, 'OK, dismantle it,' but I ask him if you want to dismantle it, what's the other option? Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hesham Youssef, very briefly. How long, how long?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Well, people are tending to blame the tool. You just can't keep blaming the tool that you have. It is as if you are a writer and blaming the computer for a bad novel that you wrote. It's unfair. This is not how things are run. I'm not comparing us with trade organisations. Of course the EU is a huge success. We started in the wrong way. We started by talking about unity, and we haven't achieved unity, but more recently we've been talking about much more practical things and we have achieved the Arab Free Trade Area. We are connecting electricity grids with benefits to millions of people in the Arab world. We are making practical steps that would help in achieving the interests of many Arabs around the world. Visas, I agree with you, it's a huge problem, and we have been pushing for it. Unfortunately governments have been resisting. You can't blame the tool for not achieving some of the things that we all hope we can achieve but are unable to do so.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Chibli Mallat, the point that the gentleman made was that there has been democracy, and look what happened in the Palestinian territories.
CHIBLI MALLAT
I think the issue of Palestine is quite specific, particularly because of the brutality of the Israeli neighbourhood, so as you know, it's not even a state. It's true that there has been a lot of heroism in Palestine to establish democracy and has been successful to some extent against very difficult odds but it's certain it's not thanks to the Arab League that we reached that point. However, I'd like to come to that point that Mr. Youssef has been hammering, and I think we see to be reading from very different scripts. You were mentioning all these fantastic achievements of the Arab League which I'm sure our good audience will find very difficult to identify. What I know is that the most efficient dimension of the Arab League, and I would be grateful if you could not attack us, Shafeeq and I, because we've done our homework and we are very pleased to speak objectively about the problem that is very much at heart for us. The most successful enterprise of the Arab League has been the collection of Ministers of Interior passing on information to each other in order to enhance the repression in our societies, so it's not, Azmi, that the Arab League is benign. The Arab League is offering a confederation for passing on very severe information about our citizens and to that extent and to the extent of the fact that it is perpetuating through also its apparatchiks of which you are, Mr. Youssef, it's perpetuating the dimension of authoritarianism, the lack of democracy, so it's not benign.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let him answer that.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
So you mean that when the Arab League is disbanded, the Arab world will become a democracy?
CHIBLI MALLAT
They'll be much better off I think, yes.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Why?
CHIBLI MALLAT
Because we won't have Ministers of Interior meeting in Cairo to pass on information on how to better arrest and torture a citizen.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, this is not what happens in the Ministries of Interiors.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, we're reading from different scripts. That's what I read, and what the gentleman has mentioned about the visas. You don't need to be a genius, when you arrive in a country in the Arab world, to see that the Europeans get through and the Arabs don't get through.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let him answer.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
You see, these are all people who have difficulties moving from one Arab country to another, and I agree, it is a problem, but this is not a justification to say that whether the Ministers of Interiors, all what they do is convey information to each other. What is happening in the Arab League is the creation of hundreds of networks. You don't like this one; I have 200 more that have been working on all kinds of issues that are beneficial, whether it's the Ministers of Communication, Ministers of Tourism, Ministers of Health to address the bird flu. If you dismantled the Arab League, how would you address the issue of the bird flu when the Ministers of Health cannot meet? But that's the environment that we allow. We allow a network for people of all kinds of walks of life, whether it's governmental, and I have to tell you ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, we don't want to get into bird flu. There's a gentleman up there who has a question, he's been waiting patiently for a while. Can we get a microphone to him please?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Why do we need to keep a League that allows foreign governments to interfere with us and with our countries? Isn't this a clear indication to the failure of this League and its huge weakness in solving our interior problems and building trust between the Arab countries, and in letting others decide their fate and get what they want from this region?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azmi Bishara. Follows on from the question before.
AZMI BISHARA
I want to follow, yes, I want to follow on that question because something was said about citizens not moving etc. The Arab borders, borders between Arab countries are designed against Arab citizens, so you want to divide more? I don't understand because it doesn't have a lot to do with democracy, because semi-democratic Arab states are more harsh on the borders, for example reformed Jordan etc. Syria allows every Arab citizen without a visa to enter, and it's not a democratic country. It has to do with nationalist ideology. Now, Arab borders are designed against Arab citizens so the treatment is no Arab identity and no Arab identity, this is a symptom of low Arab unity that these borders are designed by colonialism and if they're analysing them this way, because Arab countries keep interfering in each other's cases in political issues etc. etc., and because they think they are rivals in internal issues ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
The question was, why keep an organisation that allows that to happen?
AZMI BISHARA
No, no, the question was, why keep an organisation which allows foreigners, foreign powers to interfere, and it's exactly this organisation which was all the time against foreign interference in the Arab world, for example one case is Darfur, one case where it was here accused, the Arab League was accused here of not allowing political interference in Darfur.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's bring the questioner back in again.
AZMI BISHARA
It was now argued against the Arab League, the issue of Darfur. Exactly this point was taken against the Arab League by people who want to dismantle the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've got a point and then I'll come very quickly to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question was why do we keep this League? It shows failure, it shows weakness. Why should I be proud that such a League representing others interferes in my country and my states, or why is there no trust between the Arab states? We have conflicts. If the Arab League can't solve the conflicts, how can we face the world? Our reputation is spoilt for the other people in the western countries. We have to fix this and the Arab League is like sleeping in this case.
AZMI BISHARA
You are talking with somebody who is not represented in the Arab League and certainly not proud of the Arab League. Now, the motion was not whether we should be proud about the Arab League or we should not be proud about the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you want to keep it and he says why do you want to keep it? You're voting for that motion.
AZMI BISHARA
Yes well, yes, exactly, but keeping the Arab League, as I say, it's the only organisation which is there, having the Arab states together, reminding us of the fact that there is something in common between Arabs, not only in the language and in culture but also in the political dream and yearning for some better life in the future.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Shafeeq Ghabra is going to come in here.
AZMI BISHARA
It's part of dismantling our identity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think Ghabra has been very patient.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
And Azmi sounds like he's in the Israeli Knesset.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, have your say.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
But anyway, it is an issue. Commonality of Arabs in the Arab League, lack of teamwork, disputes, lack of agreements, lack of efficiency, lack of ability to solve any serious problem in the Arab world, so you see, when the question from the gentleman over there was very clear on the Arab League if you compare with Europe. Luckily, luckily Europe didn't have the Arab League. Luckily what Europe had was an organisation that is for economics, for economic activity, economics came first, jobs, education, development, human integration, and that is how Europe evolved.
AZMI BISHARA
Europe had two world wars, very destructive, the holocaust was in Europe. What you had after that is democratic regimes who formed the unity, democratic regimes you don't have, we did not have first the European unity and then democracy. You had democratic regimes who formed European unity, that's what you had, but you don't have an Arab League in Europe, it's too much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We really do need to hear from the other side, thank you. Azmi Bishara, let the other side speak, please. It's supposed to be democratic here at least. Thank you.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
In a way if I hear you well, Azmi, what you are saying: 'We're going to go through hell and through many wars before we really start to see the hope' and I believe there is agreement that it can happen in democracy and development and it will happen very soon, and this is the time for change, and that's part of it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, gentleman in the second row, thank you very much, gentleman in the second row, we'll get a microphone to you, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. Mr. Hesham, with regards to you, you talk about success stories economically between the Arab states, but on the other hand, all of us over here I think do agree that with regards to political issues, the Arab League has failed miserably. What do you plan on doing, being an active member in the Arab League or being the head of Mr. Amre Moussa's office?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Which political issues particularly are you focusing on?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
We're talking about Iraq, we're talking about Lebanon, we're talking about Darfur, you have a lot of political crises, issues that are happening all around the Arab states, and there is no ground stand that the Arab League is taking. I feel that the Arab states do not respect the Arab League itself, because they do not empower you. What do you people plan on doing?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Let me maybe a minute and talk about the 4 or 5 main issues that we are facing now. Let me start by the Arab/Israeli conflict and the situation in Palestine. As a result of the elections, the United States, the European Union decided not to assist the Palestinian Authority. We decided otherwise, and we decided that we will support the Palestinian Authority and we are helping the Palestinian Authority and we're trying to transfer money to the Palestinian Authority. We have been receiving phone calls every single day, they haven't received their salaries until this very day, so we're working on it and we will transfer assistance to the Palestinian people. In the last five years, the Arab League transferred $1.5 billion to the Palestinian people. It may not be enough, because the suffering is much greater than that, but this is what we are doing. In relation to Iraq, we have been working on the conference for accord and reconciliation. The preparative meeting was held in Cairo. The conference itself is supposed to take place in Iraq. We were waiting for the formation of the government. We still are waiting. There has been some progress, and we hope that in the very near future this government will be in place and we will be able to continue our efforts in order to achieve reconciliation and accord.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let me come back to the questioner. Are you impressed with what you've heard?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No. I mean, conferences, meetings have been going on for the last 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years, and nothing comes out of it genuinely. I mean, when Mr. Ghabra was talking about travelling between the GCC states with the ID, this took us almost 20 years to come about, and we're talking about six states. We talk the same language we are brothers, cousins, we have the same culture, the same traditions, six states, took them 20 years to come up with a single ID card and have normal borders except for Saudi that we still cannot go through with this card, so what do you expect for 22 countries to come in and get one single issue that is anything to help us as citizens of the Arab nation, to help us commute, to help us, something politically that put us together and unites us as one country. We don't see this happening today.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think he was impressed.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Well, Tim, he asked on two things that do not coincide. He asked about the political issues which as far as I'm concerned are the Arab/Israeli conflict, the situation in Iraq, the situation in Darfur, the situation between Syria and Lebanon and so on, and this is what I was trying to respond to, but then in the second half of his intervention he talked about movement of people and things that are of a different nature. Now, I know people are sick of conferences, but when I talk about reconciliation ...
AZMI BISHARA
But you see, in Qatar to be sick of conferences, every day there are three conferences here.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, but this is important. When I talk about a conference for reconciliation and accord in Iraq, this is not just a conference where governments are invited to make speeches, no. These are people who were unable to sit together around the same table for years and years and years, and the Arab League has succeeded in bringing them together around the same table to talk to each other, and as far as I'm concerned, this was a major breakthrough and it was considered a major breakthrough by the Iraqis themselves, not by us, not by those who are participating only, but by the whole world as well. They thought this was a real achievement. If you want me to go on ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, no. Shafeeq Ghabra, come in here, please.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
I mean, just all I can add here is that the Arab League is like a heavy dinosaur. It will not be able to move things, it will never be able to address issues, it is based on 22 Arab states, they have so much disparity among them, so many differences among them. It is based on a very simple membership, it does not work. There is nothing related neither to human rights nor to style of governments nor to economic development. The GCC has a different formula. It works better, though it takes time, it works much better. I would say, if we decentralise after disbanding, we will be much better off, whether the North African, whether the Syrian Levant area, and try to start coming back from more smaller entities into something better and focus on economics will come better ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What makes you think that will work?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Because the GCC works, and because this is the way, you will be lighter, you will be more able to address bilateral issues, multi-lateral issues, and you will be able to have a better view of decision-making, you will be able to have a better membership structure. You see, even if the entire Arab world goes democratic, the Arab League is not going to work, because the Arab League is based on wrong foundations when it comes to decide the voting, the membership, the entire structure.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please don't speak both at the same time.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
But I have a point that I need to complete. Even the bird flu that he talks about in terms of the Arab world, as if he is saying that Iran or Turkey doesn't have bird flu.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's not go down route of the bird flu. Thank you. Let him finish.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Who said that we are against the GCC having a great success and the Arab League is having a great success. As far as I'm concerned these are building blocks and they can go and co-operate and integrate as much as they can and as much as they wish, and as far as I'm concerned, this helps Arab interests, and if it helps Arab interests, it's nice.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, gentleman at the back, you've had your hand up for a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you. The issue what Mr. Hesham said, that the Arab League is not stopping countries to reform but themselves, then my question is, don't you mean that it's the responsibility of the Arab League to push member countries towards reform and to solve their problems?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Absolutely, that's our job. This is what we're trying to do. We fail in many cases, we succeed in others, but this does not mean that we're not trying, in all walks of life. In the last summit in Khartoum, it was decided also to start tackling the issue of education, and the issue of research and development in the area of science and technology. There are many things that we need to work on. All of them have some kind of activity within the Arab framework in all kinds of networks that I talked about, whether it's, and this is not only limited to government, this applies also to all kinds of federations, Federation of Doctors, Federation of Lawyers, Federation of, you name it, are also co-operating in the Arab world.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me go back to the questioner, do you feel that the Arab League should be disbanded?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I feel that it should not be disbanded because I think at least it provides a platform, we should work towards reform, that we can at least try to change and bring something positive.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Shafeeq Ghabra.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
You see, what you're saying, Hesham, that the Arab League stands for reform.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Absolutely.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
It has failed to reform itself. It has not done a single thing about reform.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
What do you know about the reform of the Arab League?
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
Let me tell you what I know. I think the Arab League should start by establishing an organisation for human rights and issue a report annually on the state of human rights in the Arab world, can you do that? I challenge you to do that.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Absolutely. Let me respond.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Don't argue amongst yourselves, please.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
The point is, now we have a new human rights charter. It is not yet into effect because it has to be ratified by government, and it includes mechanisms for all of human rights practices in the Arab world, so this is a step. We created Arab parliament. Many have criticised the Arab parliament, but it is a step as far as I'm concerned, it's a step in the right direction. We are trying to integrate civil society in all the activities of the Arab League.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Chibli Mallat.
CHIBLI MALLAT
Well, I think, you know, talking in 2006 about the first step that includes for instance education, talking about how to improve the issue of science in the Arab world, let alone about producing human rights, where you come from, today the judges are on the defensive, are being harassed and beaten up, and you're coming and talking seriously to us that the Arab League that is based in Cairo is tackling seriously to the issue of the judges in the country.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
This is not serious.
CHIBLI MALLAT
You are thinking that these people don't read, don't think. You transform white into black and tell us that today, in 2006, we are starting as Arab League with new steps and be patient, perhaps in 3006 we will have the human right report.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the third row there, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much. I think for the people against the motion, you've been talking so much about successes in the Arab League, and you just mentioned about physicians and doctors. I just happen to be a medical doctor, and I was the President of the Pan-Arab Union Against Cancer, and I had to walk away from it after 3 months. Two meetings in Cairo, everybody is fighting, it was purely political. We did not achieve anything. Every time we go for a meeting, the Jordanian doesn't want to speak to the Syrian, the Syrian doesn't want the Saudi, Saudi doesn't want the Qatari, and it just went on like this with a representative from the Arab League that did not achieve anything. And just one note, Tim, on the avian flu, believe me, nothing happened. I happen to be the Chairman of the National Committee for the Avian Flu. We went to Egypt four times. Every time we came up with a resolution, nothing comes up, so we had to take our action into our own hands for the country. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hesham Youssef, you want to say something?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Excellent point. So now, absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And the answer is?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, no. You see, we have to be serious. I'm not here to provide all the answers. This point is very telling of the situation. This is not the problem of the Arab League. This is a problem of a number of Arab governments that came and differed and did not implement what they agreed on. Then you come and blame the Arab League. We came, the Arab countries, and nothing happened. Were we supposed to take the steps or were Arab governments supposed to take the steps? You tell me.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
If we cannot achieve a simple thing when it comes to healthcare ...
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Who is 'we'?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The Arab League. Why do I have to meet under the umbrella of the Arab League when I can take my own decisions?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
But I provide an umbrella.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
So every time we are told we are working alone, we are not working under the Arab League or even the GCC, believe me, I'm not happy with the GCC, because as our colleague here has said, 20 years just to travel with an ID, so it will take us another hundred years to have economic borders being taken away and, you know, please, I want you to say something, how can we reform this Arab League in order for us not to say, 'No, it's time to unplug.'
HESHAM YOUSSEF
This was my first point.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But you're working there, you have tell us something.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Yes, this is what I'm telling you. This is why I thought right from the start that this motion is based on the wrong premise. You are coming to say, 'Let's reform the Arab League,' while I think, if we look at the Arab world, analyse the situation, we should be saying, 'Let's have reform in the Arab world. Let's reform the Arab world in all its dimensions, politically, economically, socially,' this is exactly what I said, but what you're saying is, 'Well, we came to the Arab League and nothing happened because we differed amongst ourselves as governments,' so what should I do? As an Arab League official, when I come to a room where governments are there and they're supposed to reach a conclusion for the interest of their people and they don't.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
We'll get away beyond government. Let's talk about physicians, doctors cannot agree on anything.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Well, if the doctors can't agree, you want me to force them to agree?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Well, you have to take measures. You have to tell me, 'If you are a member of the Arab League, you have to abide by these or otherwise I don't want you to be in the Arab League.'
HESHAM YOUSSEF
But that's the whole point. I am an umbrella.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But you didn't come up with it, nobody came up with it. Did an Arab League secretary general resign and say, 'Thank you, I'm a big failure, this will not work, let's walk away from it,' or enjoy the privileges, enjoy the private jets, enjoy flying around and being present for photo ops and that's it?
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Well, I would love to tell you about the privileges that we enjoy.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Not you, maybe not you. Others are enjoying it.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
No, no, I'm talking even about the secretary general who was very reluctant in the renewal.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
That's a debatable point, sir.
HESHAM YOUSSEF
Exactly, so if you want to debate it we're ready to debate it.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I think the secretary general is doing well.
TIM SEBASTIAN
'The gentleman at the back, yes.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The poor position of the organisation is a reflection of the poor position of its members. Now if I'm ugly, and let's hope I'm not, I look at myself in the mirror, I will only see the reflected image my ugly self and what should I do about it? I don't know, get a nose job or lose weight but certainly not break the mirror. This is nonsense, and this is the case. Another question to Mr. Ghabra. Doesn't he think that disbanding the League in this critical time of history is just like committing suicide and hand over the great legacy of the Arab nation into a horrible power, the power of terrorism or who are prevailing in our society, who only use religion to implement their dark agents and finally, having an organisation of no political value, or let me rephrase it, having an organisation of political incapacity, does not necessarily require its cancellation, or else what have the British kept their Royal establishment for? Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Shafeeq Ghabra, quick answer.
SHAFEEQ GHABRA
You see, it's the wrong example, though you have the right intentions. Let me clarify. You're standing in a house, the umbrella he's talking about, it is full of holes, all the rain is coming at you, the umbrella isn't working. For God's sake, wouldn't you change the umbrella? Wouldn't you change the umbrella? So let us change the umbrella and look for a new umbrella that can manage, and what some of you have been saying regarding initiatives, grass root initiatives, state to state initiatives, local initiatives, bi-lateral initiatives, multi-lateral initiatives, let's go around. You see, let's do that in order to find ourselves in a better situation, but don't tell me that you cannot change the umbrella or that you cannot find something else.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. I want to go to just one last quick question from the lady in the third row there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question for the people who are for the motion. Yes, there are lots of achievements for the Arab League but there are still lots of failures, it's way more than the achievements. I'm not saying here that the Arab League should be disbanded but they should be more improvements to behold, to become more positive and positive outlook, yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Chibli Mallat, final word.
CHIBLI MALLAT
I think that the problem, and it's a problem that joins the position that Azmi has been defending, I don't think my identity as an Arab will be worse off if the Arab League did not exist. On the contrary, I think the Arab League as it stands is such a sham that it projects an image of me as an adult that is so poor that it deserves to be disbanded. So the issue of improvement is one which is not on the table unfortunately. The structure of the Arab League and the failure of the Arab League are so deep today, so that unless you unplug, as the good doctor suggested, we're going nowhere.

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we have come to the point in the proceedings where we're going to vote on the motion that, 'This House believes it is time for the Arab League to disband.' Would you please take the voting machines. If you want to vote for the motion, press button 1, the yellow button. If you want to vote against, it's button 2, the red button. Would you do that now please. You only have to press once because through the wonders of modern science, your vote will be transmitted automatically to our computers and we'll get the result very shortly. Now we're getting the result, it's coming up on the screens, and there we have it, 60.5% for the motion, 39.5 against. The motion has been resoundingly carried. Thank you very much indeed. So all it remains for me is to thank our distinguished panellists for coming here tonight. Thank you to our audience for being with us. The Doha Debates will be back in a month's time, please join us then, but for now from all of us on the team, thank you very much for being here, have a safe journey home. Good night, thank you very much.