This House believes that Muslims are failing to combat extremism

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series  of the Doha Debates sponsored here in the Gulf by the Qatar Foundation.  Extremism takes many forms.  At its worst, it encourages and actively supports violence of the kind seen in America on 9/11 and in London on the July 7th bombings in 2005.  After these and other incidents, many blamed Islamic extremists and asked whether Muslim communities around the world had done all they could to prevent such attacks.  Others insisted the real fault lay with Western policies, particularly towards Israel and Iraq.  So tonight we debate this highly controversial issue with the motion, 'This House believes that Muslims are failing to combat extremism' and we have some influential voices on our panel.  Speaking for the motion, Ed Husain who brings some unusual experience to the discussion.  At the age of 16, he became, as he puts it, an Islamic fundamentalist in Britain.  He was even a campus recruiter for Islamist groups until he rejected them at the age of 21.  He's now Deputy Director of the Muslim counter extremism group, the Quilliam Foundation, and is a frequent commentator on the topic.  Also for the motion Arsalan Iftikhar, a Human Rights lawyer and contributing editor to Islamica Magazine, an international publication aimed at widening understanding of Islam.  Until last year, he was national legal director for the Council on American-Islamic relations, the largest Muslim civil rights organisation in the US.  Speaking against the motion, Daisy Khan.  She's Executive Director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement.  She's launched woman and youth programmes, and she advises young Muslims on such things as assimilation and modernity.  She has also won numerous awards for promoting peace and interfaith dialogue.  And with her, the Muslim Televangelist Moez Masoud who is known to millions throughout the Arab World for the controversial issues that he tackles. As a day job, though, he's an advertising executive producing commercials.  He also releases songs and promotes what one observer called 'sweet orthodoxy which stresses the humane and compassionate'.  Ladies and gentlemen, our panel.  And now let me call first on Ed Husain, please, to speak for the motion.

ED HUSAIN
Thank you, Tim.  Ladies and gentlemen, I was born and raised in London but at the age of 16 my world changed.  At the outset at school I was introduced to literature from people such as Syed Qutb and Maududi and gradually the people I kept company with, the group I hung out with, changed my mind to the extent, based on the literature that I was reading from those individuals and others, that I started to disagree fundamentally with my parents' kind of Islam. My neighbours were increasingly seen in my mind as koffar, the language of the jihad that was put out in those books was the language that I increasingly used myself on college campuses up and down Britain.  Several years later, on my own college campus, that rhetoric of unfettered jihad, of looking down at the other as koffar and disliking fellow Muslims, seeing them as several cuts beneath myself, led to a murder on my college campus.  It was that murder that changed my mind and led to my leaving extremism and then I travelled the Muslim World.  I spent a lot of time in Damascus and later Saudi Arabia.  But what worried me was the very literature that had indoctrinated me and the groups that I kept company with were also present here in the Middle East.  Hearing Friday sermons at mosques in Mecca, Medina and Jeddah were deeply worrying.  When I went back to Britain in 2005, those very books that had radicalised me, those very groups that had damaged my life in my teens and early 20s were still active on university campuses and it worries me today when I sit here in Qatar that is home to a leading scholar who, without any reservations, gives endorsement for suicide bombings, killing of innocent people in the Arab-Israeli conflict.  It's that double standard that we apply, it's that disregard for innocent human life that worries me deeply, and I sit here today and implore on you to make sure that at the end of this debate, you vote for the right side and you vote and you be honest with ourselves and say out loud, 'That's enough of burying our heads in the sand and it's high time that we admitted the nature of the problem and that we Muslims thus far has not done enough to combat extremism.'
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ed Husain, thank you very much indeed.  Ever since the major attacks, 9/11, 7/7 in London, Muslims have marched, Muslims have condemned violence, they've issued fatwas.  What more do you expect them to do?
ED HUSAIN
From where I sit, I don't see deep, sincere moral outrage.  The fact that cleric after cleric ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
They've discussed that time and again, on television, in newspapers, in articles, in letters written by clerics.
ED HUSAIN
Where are the vast demonstrations against the killings in Iraq on a daily basis between Shia and Sunni Muslims?  Where are the vast demonstrations against clerics who are issuing fatwas of suicide bombing and thus endorsing the killing of innocent human beings?  I don't see those mass protests on our streets.  Yes, the odd fatwa here and the odd fatwa there, but that said, I must pay tribute at this point to the good work done by people like Sheikh Ali Juma'a, Sheikh Abdullah bin Bayah, Sheikh Habib Ali Jifri. They're the good guys, but they're the exception.  The vast majority of the Muslim street thus far hasn't risen up in the numbers that it should against the moral outrage that we see happening all around us.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But by telling Muslims, 'You have to do more, do more, do more,' this constant refrain proves that you're not terrorists, proves that you don't have links with extremists,' you risk pushing them into a corner, don't you, marginalising them in society?
ED HUSAIN
It's not about doing more.  No, it's not about doing more.  It's probably about doing less of certain things.  The fact that after 9/11 in 2001, there were only about 13,000 madrasses in Pakistan teaching extremist Islam, and now we have 25,000, that tells you a lot.  The fact that report after report shows that the vast majority of Muslims don't see a clash between extremism and moderate Islam, that also tells you something.  So it's about doing less, I think, rather than doing more.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
And aren't you providing the excuse for racial profiling and for marginalising Muslims?
ED HUSAIN
Far from it.  I'm on the record as being against all of those things and I don't think it's about racial profiling Muslims.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But some people might say you're scaremongering.  There's just a tiny minority of people who are involved in extremist activities.
ED HUSAIN
I wish it were a tiny minority.  When I was involved in extremism in the 1990s, there were about 200 of us in Britain.  Now the official figures are over 4,000 people that MI5 is looking at today, so the numbers sadly are on the increase and the fact that we've had huge, huge attacks such as 9/11, 7/7, Bali, the conflict in Iraq, just indicates that the problem where it was rhetorical in the 1990s has now become practical and it's become the default, violent culture among people who have grievances based on religion and politics.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Ed Husain, thank you very much indeed.  Now let me call please on Daisy Khan to speak against the motion.

DAISY KHAN
Thank you very much.  I'm honoured to be part of this distinguished panel.  I also notice that I'm the only woman on the panel, for which I am grateful.  All of us here on this panel including those arguing for the motion, are working to eliminate extremism.  In fact, Ed Husain is part of a Muslim counter-extremism group.  I am rejecting this motion because I am part of the combat team that is working against extremism, and soon you will see a tidal wave if visionary Muslim thought and activism mounting on the horizon, which will change the face and focus of Muslim life worldwide.  This change is already here.  Extremism is found in all religions and ideologies, and unfortunately Islam is no exception.  It was atheist extremists, the former Soviet Union, that invaded Afghanistan and gave birth to extremism in Afghanistan.  But I'm here to share the good news with you today that an era of extremism is over, almost over.  Fortunately extremists in the Muslim world are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction, but sadly the media has continually amplified and neglected the peaceful efforts of the silent majority.  For instance, last month, 10,000 Muslim ulema and others in India denounced the tactics used by the extremists.  In 2004 in Jordan, Amman Message, signed by 184 eminent clerics, rejected takfir, proclaiming others as infidels, and it barely got a mention.  These initiatives that take back Islam from the extremists is big news, but our news media is more interested in what is the latest gossip on Britney Spears.  No wonder there is a perception that Muslims are twitching their thumbs and doing nothing.  When I say a tidal wave is mounting on the horizon, I am not saying this lightly, I am part of this tidal wave.  Three years ago, I knew that my way of combating extremism was showing success, small successes.  I felt the personal burden to continue and had to leave my very nice cushy corporate job of an interior architect, and I began to empower agents of change, Muslim women and young Muslim men and women leaders, and in October, you will be witness to a fleet of 300 Muslims leaders of tomorrow coming your way right here in Doha, Qatar.  Before you vote, I ask you to think about one thing.  Do not forget the tireless effort of ordinary combatants like myself and others here in this room, who are fighting extremism without ever raising a sword, using a stick, a stone, a bullet or a bomb.  This peaceful tactic, led by visionary men and women leaders, are forming the tidal wave, the wave that will push away all remnants of extremism once and for all.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Daisy Khan, the era of extremism is over.  You seem to live on another planet from Ed Husain.  Ed Husain sees the same people radicalising fresh generations of youth in Britain, he sees books being sold outside mosques calling for the death of non-believers, and you say the era of extremism is over.  How can you?  Are you calling him a liar?
DAISY KHAN
Of course I'm not calling him a liar.  We're here to debate what are the successes, are Muslims doing anything to combat ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
No, actually the subject of the debate is that the Muslims are not doing enough to combat, are failing to combat extremism.
DAISY KHAN
Well, that's exactly what I'm here to tell you.  I'm here to tell you that Muslims are doing enough.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
That is enough, if those books are still being sold outside mosques in London, that's enough?
DAISY KHAN
That's if you want to measure success as what is the win.  Successes are small successes that lead to the big successes.  That is what I want to focus on.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But this doesn't worry you at all?  These things don't worry you at all?
DAISY KHAN
These things don't worry me because I am seeing a new era approaching, and the era of extremism is over.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Based on what?  How are you seeing the new era, when these people are still putting out the same propaganda?
DAISY KHAN
Polls after polls will tell you that the general public has no appetite for extremism any more.  Extremists have not done anything for society.  If anything they have set back our society, and it's time for all of us to rise and take over.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You mentioned polls, let me mention a poll to you.  After the 7/7 bombings in London, 79% of Muslims thought their community should be more responsible for preventing Muslims from becoming bombers.  So they see a gap there, they don't think that Muslims in their communities are doing enough to prevent these bombers, but you ignore that.
DAISY KHAN
Well, if you are waiting for somebody else to create the change, Tim, I mean, ordinary people have to take back the responsibility, and that's what I'm doing.  I'm talking about the work that I'm doing, and I, and I know many other efforts that are going on all over the world that are really contributing to us pushing back extremism once and for all.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Daisy Khan, thank you very much indeed.  Now please could I call on Arsalan Iftikhar to speak for the motion.

ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Thank you, Tim.  Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and salaam aleikum.  The combat team that my dear esteemed colleague Daisy Khan talks about I am a part of as well.  As the lead American Muslim lawyer after 9/11, I was the first person not only to speak out against terrorism, but to also defend the rights of Muslims from unlawful detention, to speak out on Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, the Danish Cartoon controversy, and other international watershed events that have occurred around the world.  Daisy mentioned the Amman Message which was signed by some of the leading ulema and scholars all around the world which states that Islam is a religion that strives for the good of all people and a religion that can only be defended in ways that are ethical, and that the ends do not justify the means in this religion, and I believe, as an American Muslim public diplomat who has spent every single waking moment of his life since September 11th, 2001, that we as Muslims have simply not done enough.  If we enter into a world of complacency where we disavow the fact that there are problems out there or there is a problem in our community, I think that that would not only be myopic and near-sighted of us, but it would also be naïve, and so this motion should be voted for for three major reasons.  Number 1, and first and foremost, it is a religious, spiritual and moral obligation for us Muslims to self-reflect and speak out against injustice wherever it occurs and most importantly, regardless of whoever the perpetrator is.  We must clean our own house first before we can expect others to have any sort of sympathy for our causes.  Secondly, we've also lost credibility with the rest of the world because of our selective outrage, and the reason that I call it selective moral outrage is because we see protests and riots going on during the Danish Cartoon controversy, with Gillian Gibbons, the English teacher in Sudan who was almost imprisoned and given lashes for innocently naming a Teddy Bear Mohammed, but we don't see those same sorts of vocal protests, we do not see that same moral outrage when we see our Sunni and Shia brothers and sisters being slaughtered every single day, when we look at political assassinations in Pakistan, when we look at the fact that out of the 57 majority Muslim nations on earth, only one in four of our nations are democratically elected, and so there has become a socio-political vacuum, which of course leads to my third point, that we as a Muslim ummah, as a Muslim community, seem to not be able to differentiate between something that is a political grievance and a religious justification.  The real difference between those who condone terrorist acts and all others is about politics and not piety.  Two wrongs do not make a right.  Islam does not teach us that, and the great American Civil Rights leader, Dr. Martin Luther King Junior once said, 'We will have to repent in this generation, not only for the actions and words of bad people, but also for the appalling silence of good people,' and as someone who has dedicated his life to Islamic work, I honestly believe that my Muslim brothers and sisters around the world need to change this appalling silence and help make our community better for all.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Arsalan Iftikhar, thank you very much indeed.  What more would you do personally? You say Muslims are failing to combat extremism.  What more would you do personally?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, I think that what, for example, all of us here at this table have done is we have gone down into the public domain. 
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Yes, but what more?  You've been out on the public, exactly.  You've voiced your condemnation of terrorist activities.  What more?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
But we can tell that that's not having a resonating effect when 24% of Americans say that they do not want Muslims as their neighbours, when 49% of Americans according to a Gallup poll say that Islam inherently is more of a violent religion than other religions.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But is it your fault that that attitude has taken root?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Is it our collective fault, and as a Muslim, as a part of the global ummah, as a part of the global Muslim community, we all have to accept responsibility because these are people who are claiming to act in the name of our faith, and it is high time for us to stand up and as loudly as they say it, we must say that this will not be done in our name.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So more outrage, more condemnation?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Why do you hold Muslims to a higher standard than everybody else in society?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Because I am a Muslim and because Islam holds Muslims to a higher standard.  If nobody else is going to take the moral high ground on issues, it is the Islamic teachings of God and the Prophet Mohammad sallu'la wa'sallem that we must take the moral high ground and bring justice about.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
And watch out for extremists in their midst?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
To spy on their own society?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, no, I mean, you call a spade a spade regardless of where ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Well, you spy on your own society, you've got to look over your shoulder the whole time, wonder what everybody's doing.  Is that the kind of Muslim community you want?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
No, of course not, but you always look over your shoulder to find out if anything bad is happening behind you.  You don't look at the colour or the religion of the person who might be doing you harm.  Again, justice is justice regardless of who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed.
TIM SEBASTIAN  Arsalan Iftakhar, thank you very much indeed.  Now let me please call on Moez Masoud to speak against the motion.

MOEZ MASOUD
I am speaking against the motion for a few reasons.  The first one is that I believe the truth or the reality of the matter is that Muslims are not failing to combat extremism.  I take small issue with the word 'failing' particularly.  I think that if the motion said something like, 'Muslims aren't doing enough,' then maybe I would have been on your side (points to opposing team), but to kind of have this almost conclusive, you know, 'Muslims are failing,' and thank God it doesn't say 'failed' because then I'd have a serious problem with it personally, but our failing is, I believe the reality is different, so this is the first point.  I believe there certainly is a perception that Muslims are failing to combat extremism.  I fully agree with that, and one of the things I want to do tonight is make that clear distinction between the currently existing perception and between the reality, and I'm going to have to put the spotlight on another whole bunch of other things that people haven't been seeing.  One very important point that I also want to make here is that this is not a new thing.  We had to deal as Muslims before 9/11 with acts of extremism, with terrorism particularly.  I would like to quickly cite the assassination of our President, me being an Egyptian, Sadat, and I would like to say that that was extremism that befell us before anyone else, and by 1997 because of a lot of efforts to combat extremism, and we can get into details later, this group Jama'at Al-Islamiya, renounced violence and later on a series of books called Tasheeh Al-Mafahim the correction of certain understandings, were actually issued and that was I think a very important success, and this is all before, or most of it is before 9/11.  I also want to talk about how the orthodox and authoritative understanding of Islam is the majority, and I also want to show that it's not very silent.  I would disagree with my colleagues here regarding the silence of that majority.  I believe that radical Islam does exist, but I also believe it's a minority, that's why I'm on this side, but I believe that it has the microphone and so it has an amplified voice, and that the media keeps putting the limelight on them, and this is one of the responsibilities of the media that we want to get into in this debate, and I believe that scholars have spoken, authoritative scholars who can prove their authenticity, have been speaking out and are speaking out, and can clearly show that there is nothing inherent in Islam that would justify terrorism, and that it is completely anti-ethical to the teachings of its tradition, and again, if the microphone starts going their way, I will be giving many examples of things that people might actually find very, very surprising, particularly to use Egypt and Al-Azhar as an example.  And finally I will also speak from personal experience, having myself, in one of my most recent shows in Ramadan last September aired an episode that was on counter-terrorism, that was anti-terrorism, I actually filmed in front of King's Cross Station where the 7/7 unfortunate bombings obviously took place, and I can bring testimony to thousands if not hopefully millions of young people who do not seem to want to sympathise in any way, shape or form with these acts, I would say that, to speak and respond to Ed, that maybe what you say is to me a perfect analysis of a non-representative sample which is the UK.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Moez Masoud, thank you very much indeed.  You look at Ed Husain's experience and you say it's not representative, it's small numbers.  That's complacency, isn't it, that's pretty close to complacency?  It doesn't matter whether the numbers are small or large, it matters what damage they can cause in society, doesn't it?
MOEZ MASOUD
Not absolutely.  I mean, the second part at least, it's about the damage, but all I'm saying is that to draw a conclusion about an entire civilisation would need a representative sample, I think that Muslims in the UK, I think it's a very unique situation that doesn't represent Muslims anywhere else in the world.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So you're concerned about the situation of Muslims in the UK?
MOEZ MASOUD
I'm very much concerned, that's why I filmed ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
And it's failing in the UK, is it?
MOEZ MASOUD
If this was only about the UK, maybe I would have been on the Ed's side, possibly, I would need to do more research.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So you would go halfway towards their side.
MOEZ MASOUD
No, I think the UK represents a smaller percentage of the world, but I would go maybe 10% or 5%.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
With the same kind of literature calling for the death of non-believers that's being sold outside a mosque ...
ED HUSAIN
Yes, Saudi Arabia.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
... in Saudi Arabia or in London, you don't condemn that?
MOEZ MASOUD
I do and I think that Saudi Arabia and the UK, that would be the Western example, anomaly, and this would be the Arab anomaly.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Maybe they're all anomalies.  We started off with the UK, we've got Saudi Arabia now, maybe there are a few other countries where this literature is on sale.
MOEZ MASOUD
Maybe, but actually a conversation I was having earlier today was about both those anomaly situations, so I don't find it threatening at all.  I think that there is extremism in the UK, I think there is extremism in Saudi Arabia, but I do think that both of them don't represent the rest of the, I think the majority is still a lot more.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Do you know what kind of literature is being sold outside your mosque?
MOEZ MASOUD
In Egypt?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Yes.
MOEZ MASOUD
I think very spiritual literature personally.  I come from a mosque called The Family of the Prophet, they're known to be a lot more ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Have you looked at the literature?
MOEZ MASOUD
Personally, the ones sold by my mosque, yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Yes, you've looked at it and it doesn't contain any exhortations to kill non-believers?
MOEZ MASOUD
No.  I think that the kind of extremism or the kind of concern that I would have with non-anomalist areas which I still believe are a majority would be about sympathy maybe but not perpetrating acts of violence or calling them justified.  In fact we'll look later at some statistics that would I think prove my point.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right.  Moez Masoud, thank you very much indeed.  I'm going to throw the questions open to the floor, our motion being, 'This House believes that Muslim are failing to combat extremism.'  Let's take the gentleman in the first row.

AUDIENCE Q (M)
Well, first of all I want to ask the people who are for the motion, don't you think that the Western societies, they are not helping Muslims in order to fight against terrorism or the extremism? We've known Muslims trying very hard, specially here for example in Qatar, what we have is, we had very much of the peace processes, peace talks and also, you know, trying to sit together with different religions and have common ground, but the Western societies and Western governments are not helping.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, well, let's have Ed Husain answer that question.  Are they helping?
ED HUSAIN
This is part of the mentality that constantly shifts the blame to the other, that somehow the West has got something to do with it, this is our problem.  It was in the 18th century, the roots of this problem started in earnest when one man decided that with him and his tribe they will oust everyone else who opposes him.  What we see in the heartland of Islam, Mecca and Medina today, is the kind of extremism that I'm talking about, that doesn't tolerate the other, even within our faith, so the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia can't tolerate the Sunni Sufis or the Shia, never mind the non-Muslim infidel that resides elsewhere.  So for me it's about becoming more tolerant within the Muslim tradition and then extending that tolerance outside, so let's put our house in order first before we constantly blame the other.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
We are not blaming, we are just saying that they are not helping us.  And I'm pretty sure that you guys agree with me, they're not helping.  If they're invading Iraq, if they're also saying that the United Nations, using the veto against the United Nations condemning the siege against Gaza, these are the things that are driving the local communities in different countries and extremism.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, Arsalan Iftikhar, if you want to come in on that.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
As a Muslim public diplomat who deals with all of these issues, this begins to get into the debate of moral equivocation where, I said before, two wrongs do not make a right.  If I come to you and I slap you in the face, that gives you no right to go and slap Ed in the face.  We have as Muslims, we have a religious obligation in Islam to not only help our oppressed brothers but also call out our brothers when they are being the oppressors.  You know, we all know the Bukhari tradition of The Prophet sallu'la wa'sallem where he said, 'Help your brother whether he's an oppressor or the oppressed,' but we tend to only focus on the oppressed, and we take a blind eye when Muslims around the world are claiming to make acts and do acts and form acts in the name of Islam and then say, 'Oh, but we're doing it because of something that's going on halfway round the world.'
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, I'm going to take a quick comment from Daisy Khan.
DAISY KHAN
Yes, I think we really have to know what the root cause of extremism is.  90% of extremism comes about because people are looking for either political liberation or some kind of self-determination.  It's not about the theology of Islam, that is not what we're debating here today, and I think that only 10% is about social justice which really means, you know, political empowerment and economic empowerment.  There was no extremism in Afghanistan before the Soviets walked in?  Let me finish, let me give you some stats.  There was no extremism in Iraq before we walked in there.  Senator Obama said the other day that, you know, George Bush drove the bus into the ditch, and now everybody else has to get that bus out.  And then if we go into Iran tomorrow, you can be rest assured that there would be a rise of extremism in Iran also, so we have to take some responsibility as Western Muslims as well.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ed Husain, do you want to come back very briefly on that?
DAISY KHAN
It's a reaction to a lot of political upheaval.
ED HUSAIN
With respect, it's not fair to say that theology doesn't have anything to do with it, when repeatedly suicide bombers are talking about going into djanna and sharing their lives with the 72 virgin wives.  We've got to be honest and say there is a misreading of theology, of scripture here that contributes to the political grievances that you've rightly allude to.
TIM SEBASTIAN  
All right, thank you.  I'm going to take a question from the lady in the third row.  We'll get a microphone to you please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Why would we label these people suicide bombers when their enemies are being supplied with F16s and Apaches, and they're bombing them every day?  What other alternative do these people have?  This is the question.  If you try to liberate the people that are doing that and give them their rights, they will not resort to such a thing.  They don't have any other alternative. 
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
See, again, we get into the whole moral equivocation of this.  I would ask you a simple question in response.  Is there a categorical prohibition of suicide in Islam? 
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Suicide bombing you mean?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
No, no, of suicide in general, leaving aside the bombs.  It is categorical, I mean, and so again when we say that people are doing something only because other people are doing, again, where do we as Muslims get the moral high ground.  How are we any better as Muslims, how are we any better than the people that we claim are oppressing us?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
See, we're not condoning suicide.  It is haram in Islam, we understand that, but they are in a situation where we have to understand the reality of the situation.  What alternative do they have, this is what I'm asking, I'm not condoning suicide.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You're not condoning it but are you justifying it?
AUDIENCE Q (F) 
No, we're not justifying anything.  If these were in Vietnam or if these were in any other country, they would do the same thing, and this has happened all over history, you can find it.  If they're freedom fighters, they need a way out, but if every time they would like to let the people hear what they're trying to say, they're vetoed out.  They don't have any rights actually internationally, by international bodies.  They don't have any rights in their own territory.  We're not condoning violence, we're not condoning suicide.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, let's ask Moez Masoud to come in here.
MOEZ MASOUD
OK, thank you.  I think that it's very important here to note, again go back to authoritative classical, traditional Islam, I'm talking from within a Muslim paradigm now to respond to this kind of question. God guides people, God guides people through the prophets and then through scholars.  The orthodox standpoint is anti-suicide, the orthodox standpoint is anti the killing of civilians, and the orthodox standpoint is anti-suicide for the purpose of killing of civilians.  Now, some people might emotionally have the tendency to hear this as an apathy towards the Palestinian people, but those who take this standpoint actually are trying to do what will supposedly bring God's blessing into the area, and so I think that again, we're going back to the point that the orthodox understanding of Islam doesn't have enough light on it, and nobody's speaking its language to the people, and then all we have right now is a radical minority with loud voices and then confused masses with emotions, and they're just going at each other.  I think it's time for Islam to speak about Islam.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Let's take a question from the lady in the fourth row there please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to the panel against the motion, and I really do not mean to under-estimate the efforts of everyone fighting extremism, but I'd like to take you to the situation in Iraq and we see the Muslim community over there killing each other, and the global Muslim community is very much expected to react in a certain way that matches the severity of the situation in Iraq, and we haven't seen that from the global Muslim society.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Daisy Khan, you think the era of extremism is over.
DAISY KHAN
Well, first of all we don't have a central authority in Islam, so there is no such thing as a global Muslim community that can weigh in.  That's the reality of our faith.  That is actually the beauty of our faith and that's also the challenge that we face.  This is why when Americans ask me where are the Muslim leaders, I tell them, 'Well, we don't have a central authority.'  There is no Pope to speak for us, so each person has to take responsibility.  People in Iraq have to take responsibility for their own affairs.  This issue is not between Shia and Sunni.  This issue is a political power play.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, but they are, the people in Iraq, and I speak now from experience, because I'm Iraqi, they are taking responsibility for their actions, but you have all of these external interventions and we really expect much more of our Arab brothers and sisters, from our Muslim brothers and sisters.
DAISY KHAN
Well, I think that ordinary citizens have to step up, and unfortunately I think it's ordinary Iraqis that have to come together, and stop dividing.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
They are coming together, I know that for sure, but we still don't see a reaction from the Muslim society.  They're not, I feel sometimes that they don't fight it as much as they fight other issues like the cartoons in Denmark for example.
DAISY KHAN
I can only tell you what's happening in America.  I know that the Shia and the Sunni community in America is getting together to make sure that this conflict does not travel into America and tear apart another community.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Arsalan Iftikhar, you wanted to say something.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, again, getting back to my central point, I think that we as Muslims are failing in the sense that we are not, our selective outrage, again like you mentioned the Danish Cartoon controversy.  You know, we had fire-bombings and riots in Beirut, Islamabad and Kuala Lumpur.  Where are those same protests, where are the chanting Muslims saying, 'No to sectarian violence in Iraq'?
DAISY KHAN
That's my point exactly.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Again, as someone who has dedicated his life not only to combating extremism but to also combating Islamophobia because we have to understand that when people in the West, when non-Muslims view and see our selective outrage, they are less likely to show any sort of sympathy when we do need the moral outrage, when we do need the consensus of the global community on our side.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, all right, Moez Masoud, a very quick word here.
MOEZ MASOUD
Well, I agree with Arsalan regarding this point, the selective outrage.  I just think that it's side-tracking us a little bit because again the motion is 'are failing' and that's where the concern is.  There are problems.  I'm not saying we're doing an admirable job.  I'm saying we're not failing, and I just want to highlight that and to go back to the two anomalies earlier, I think that again, what Ed speaks about in the UK and then what Ed spoke about also in Saudi, do represent a radical non-majority that has the microphone, that is amplified, and unfortunately has the money ...
ED HUSAIN
... and Pakistan.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ed is saying Pakistan as well.
ED HUSAIN
Well, we can get into that, Tim said to make it short, but it doesn't represent what I would call Al-Azhar in Egypt, Zeitouna in Tunisia Qaraween in Morocco for example, and those to me are the tradition.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right.  There's a lady in the sixth, seventh row.  You've had your hand up for a while. 
AUDIENCE Q (F)
To the side that says Muslims are doing enough for this, define 'enough'.  What to you is enough to stop this?  We hear different sides.  We hear you saying there's a lot and him saying a little, but numbers don't matter.  It's a problem and we need to face it, whether it's a tiny problem or it's a big problem, so what do you think that we're doing that's actually enough to prevent it?
MOEZ MASOUD
I just want to reiterate one last time, I never said we're doing enough.  I think until it's solved we haven't done enough because I as a Muslim, it's my responsibility to completely eradicate it.  In fact I would take issue with the word 'combat'.  I would personally say, if I wrote the motion, I would say, 'Muslims are failing to eradicate' because we have to get rid of it and we're going to get rid of it hopefully, but let me just give you some statistics.  If you look at who speaks for Islam, what a billion Muslims really think by Esposito and Mogahed for example, if you look at the fact that in the US we have 46% of people who would actually say that they might not have a problem with, or that are actually anti the bombing of civilians for a cause, 24 say often and some are justified, and I look at the Muslim world, Indonesia, 74% say never justified, Pakistan 86% say never justified, the bombing of civilians, Bangladesh 81% and Iran 80% ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ed Husain, you're not impressed by those figures.
ED HUSAIN
There are lies, lies and damn statistics and the Pew report talks about 60% of Muslims in Indonesia, a vast number of who believe that Arabs had nothing to do with 9/11.  Let's be honest, there's a huge conspiracy mindset going up and down the Arab/Muslim street that believes that somehow Jews and the CIA were behind 9/11 and 7/7 and that Muslims had nothing to do with it.  We've got to get beyond this denial, that's widespread.
MOEZ MASOUD
That's a good point. But what does that conspiracy point to?
ED HUSAIN
We've got to accept responsibility for where we are collectively in the community, and once we've done that, and hopefully tonight's motion will be passed, because that admits that we've got a problem, then we can start talking about what to do about it, rather than just, with all respect, those stats ...
MOEZ MASOUD
But I have a question.  I agree with you about this conspiracy theory mindset, I just want to know how it relates to the idea of failing because they might look at it as a conspiracy, that doesn't mean that they agree with terrorism.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
I'm going to quote from the same book that you just quoted from, where it says that 44% of Americans believe that Islam as a religion is inherently more violent than any religion.  22% of Americans, one-fourth of Americans, said that they do not want Muslims as their neighbours.  They don't want us living next to them and they keep arguing on the semantics that, 'Oh, we're not failing, we're not failing.'  Well, I can tell you something, we're not passing either.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, gentleman in the third row, we'll take a question from you, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Mrs. Khan, you said earlier that we need the average Muslim population, they need a step up to help combat extremism.  Well, what can the average Muslim person do to help combat this?
DAISY KHAN
Well, first of all I wanted to go back to the earlier question ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Please can we deal with this ...
DAISY KHAN
No, I just wanted to say that this problem that we have is a huge problem, Tim, and Rome was not built in one day, and we're not going to lick it in one day either.  We have to just focus on small successes till we get to the big success, so having said that, I have a five-point strategy.  We Muslims take pride in our five pillars.  We love our five pillars and we do them really well, but we also have another dimension, which is how to take care of our fellow citizens, and what is it that we need to do?  I've a five-card plan.  We need to cultivate new leaders, new leaders who will instil hope and inspire others, and this vision has already been created.  You have to befriend the West, my friends.  The West is no longer of the other.  I am part of the West.  There are 25 million Muslims living in the West.  You have to empower women.  They are the glue that hold the community together and the family together, and women have the most to gain by eradicating extremism.  Wives, mothers and sisters don't have to weep any more in silence because they've lost their husbands, sons and brothers.  And you have to help Muslims who are working against extremism if you have resources, and I say, just give one dollar for every Muslim who's not an extremist, give it to me or give it to any one of us, and you will see a change.  Fifth ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, this is the last point.
DAISY KHAN
Yes, and this is the one that everybody can do, reclaim the ummah for peace and justice, and replace it by reporting criminal activity in your own community.  Don't be afraid to do that.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN  (to questioner)
OK, are you impressed by those points? 
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Well, I am pretty impressed, I think that answered my question pretty well.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You wanted to say something, Arsalan.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Maybe you are less impressed.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, again for example in America we have a saying that all politics is local, and so, you know, not all of us will be able to deal in three-dimensional geopolitics every day, but there are things that Muslims are doing and have done and we need to work on it.  For example the case where women objected to the proposal to bar women from praying in the central portion of the grand mosque in Mecca, or when Muslim scholars issued a fatwa against female genital mutilation in light of Islamic teachings or when Pakistani women used Koranic teachings to amend the discriminatory rape laws.  Now, these are all abhorrent practices that are anti-aesthetical to Islam and Islamic teachings, and it shows what we as Muslims, we in the grass roots here in Qatar, in the Middle East, in the greater world both West and East, can help in helping to ameliorate and reconcile the bridge between the East and West, but to somehow say that we have succeeded, that extremism doesn't exist, that we are not failing, that we do not have a long way to go unfortunately in my opinion is a little devoid of reality.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
The gentleman in the front row, you sir, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for Mrs. Khan.  You say that 90% of extremists, they're extremists because they're looking for political freedom, and according to Mr. Husain there are people in Saudi Arabia selling magazines promoting the death of non-believers.  Why would you say that's happening right now?
DAISY KHAN
Well, I think that the truth of Islam has been hijacked by people who have a distorted view of scripture and I believe that there is work to be done in that area.  For instance I think that 10,000 scholars coming together in India recently is a clarification of that.  I think that the Amman Message is a clarification of that, I think the madrassah reform that is going on in Pakistan, 1,000 madrassahs that have been reformed specifically with this one issue, and let me give you a story.  For instance the 1,000 madrassahs that have been going through curriculum reform have resulted in the Korean hostages being released, and you know how that happened?  When the Korean hostages were taking place, somebody called up the United States because they were in charge of the madrassah reform, that person picked up the phone and called up one of the madrassahs and said, 'Can you do something about it?'  That one person in that one madrassah that was going through the reforms said, 'I know somebody in Taliban because I'm married to somebody in the Taliban family,' picked up the phone and he called up the Taliban and he said, 'Show me where does it say in the Koran ...' because he had gone through reform, 'Show me where does it say in the Koran that we have to take innocent people as hostages,' and it's because of re-interpretation and the texts were being reformed and the understanding is being clarified, that the hostages were freed.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Daisy Khan, what would you do about that kind of literature being sold in Saudi Arabia?  What would you do about that?
DAISY KHAN
I think that we really need to take a serious look at that because we in the United States ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But what does that mean, 'Take a serious look at it.'
DAISY KHAN
We have suffered from that in the United States because the verse says 'non-believers' and then in parenthesis it says 'Jews and Christians.'
ED HUSAIN
Daisy, you say that, and you say that every year millions of Muslims go to Hajj and we walk away silently.  There's no protest against the fact that the Saudis have totally demolished our heritage in Mecca and Medina.  There's no protest about the fact that they impose a certain sexual segregation in the harem in Medina and in the harem in Mecca.  I feel collectively we're responsible for what's going on in our heartland from where we send our ambassadors on a yearly basis, unless we challenge it right there where it's all going wrong, there's no point in us saying one madrassah in Pakistan handed over some Kenyan hostage.
DAISY KHAN
No, no, a thousand madrassahs. 
ED HUSAIN
From 13,000 too 27,000 madrassahs now in fact still and half of them breeding extremists, if you want proof, look at the Taliban in Afghanistan.  We've got a huge problem.  We can't go round denying that we're in a real mess.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Lady in the second row, we'll take a question from you, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to Mr. Arsalan.  When the Danish government eventually met with the Muslims in Denmark, they chose only to meet with the moderate Muslims.  Isn't some of the extremism in Islam the result of the frustration born out of the West's desire to have a dialogue only on its own terms?   
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
And that's actually a very good question.  On the day the Danish Cartoon controversy broke, I personally met with both the Danish and Norwegian ambassadors to the United States to voice my opposition to it, and of course during the time the newspaper was hiding behind the free press argument but we all learned later through The Guardian newspaper in the United Kingdom that they had turned down similar cartoons lampooning the prophet Jesus, and so this was an incendiary, inciteful message that they were trying to send to the Muslim world, and unfortunately some Muslims around the world took the bait hook, line and sinker and that's where we saw a firebombing of a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Beirut, a bombing of a Pizza Hut in Islamabad, Pakistan, and the difficulty that I had, you know, I' go from CNN to BBC to Al-Jazeera explaining these situations and the first question that I get, and it's a question that I think all of you should think about, is that what about the virulently anti-Semitic cartoons that regularly appear in Muslim newspapers around the world?  So if we are going to condemn racism, we should not only condemn Islamophobia, we have to condemn racism in all of its forms, especially within our own Muslim ummah, whether it's saying that Arabs are better than non-Arabs, we have to be consistent in our message because otherwise to the rest of the world we're just seen as duplicitous Muslims who only cry foul when something goes wrong with us and not when our people do something wrong as well.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Moez Masoud.
MOEZ MASOUD
Arsalan, I want to respond to your response to her.  I just want to make it clear that there is a problem, this is not, this side at least, you know, we're not trying to say there is no problem.  I want to take you back to a couple of things you said real quick, then maybe you can have the next question, I don't want to take too much time, but number one, when you mentioned the statistics about neighbours and all these things, you know, when you look at logic, that could mean that yes, Muslims are currently extremists, or it could mean that there's an image in the media, a perception that Americans, because of which Americans have that problem, so you can't conclude anything from that statistic.  And number two, back to the semantics issue, basically you can go either way with that statistic, so we need to substantiate it with more evidence, and back to the whole semantics, there is a difference between not failing and between succeeding.  I'm not saying succeeding, once it's eradicated I'll come here and say succeeded, but all I'm saying is that failing implies complacency.  When I say not failing, all I'm saying is there are efforts, and let me highlight them for you because the media hasn't, and let me give you one effort right now, and then move on.  Let me give you an example.  Now, it may be in your knowledge that there has not been one graduate of Al-Azhar who has ever committed any act of terrorism over a thousand years for now.  Now, Al-Azhar  in the past 50 years, 15 institutes and schools have grown in 50 years to 7,500, not one funded by the government, 15 to 7,500 of this orthodox antithetical to terrorism, Islam, 15,000 students have grown to a million five hundred thousand, a million and a half.  From Dar Al-Ifta'a to give an example, of Sheikh Ali Juma'a  Ed cites earlier Dar Al-Ifta'a where the fatwas are issued, 950 fatwas in six years by the first Mufti in the d a half.  From Dar Al-Ifta'a to give an example, of Sheikh Ali Juma'a  Ed cites earlier Dar Al-Ifta'a, a thousand to two thousand a day by Sheikh Ali Juma'a.  
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Can we stay a bit closer to the motion?
MOEZ MASOUD
Yes, well now to link all this with the motion is that there are efforts, let me put it back in the motion, there are efforts, they are very substantial, they represent orthodox Islam, we need to get more media light on to them, until the media's on them, the media light, we currently are going to have people believing the other image in the media, hence your statistics.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
We're going to take a question from the gentleman in the second row, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question goes to the opposition, and I'd just like to comment on something Mrs. Daisy Khan said.  You mentioned we should concentrate on small successes, and Muslims should come together, right?  Well, why don't the Muslims like yourself, leading agencies that promote not killing, go as far as maybe halfway round the world to Pakistan and stop like schools there from teaching children at a young age that maybe if you perform jihad, it will get you straight to heaven.  Why don't you go as far as halfway round the world to change it and not only stick to the West?  I mean, it takes a lot of measures to stop extremism because you said yourself it's a very deep problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Daisy Khan.
DAISY KHAN
I guess I'm headed to Pakistan next.  Thank you.  My work is very extensive, I do go all over the place but I will take your proposition very seriously.
MOEZ MASOUD
And I would like to add to that that no, we are people, are flying there, we are, we're getting rid of this literature.  That episode I talked about on my show in Ramadan made a great difference.  We're getting rid of it.  Those efforts that have been unknown are coming out now, and it's because of them that I'm saying we're not failing, and hopefully we will succeed in maybe by the next Doha debate.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Arsalan Iftikhar.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Moez talked about perception.  We all know that perception is reality.  When one-fourth of a nation thinks that you are too dangerous to live next door to, it is quite clear that we are not succeeding in getting our message across.  As someone who deals in public opinion in the media every single day of my life, when 99% of Americans say that they want to live next to a Muslim, that's when I will say that we have succeeded.  If you vote for this motion ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So, your PR is bad?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, when you have Osama Bin Laden as your 10-second soundbite that you see on CNN every night, yes, and so we are working from a disadvantage, we are working from a handicap, and by voting for the motion, you are not saying that, you know, Muslims are failing.  I mean, I'm a Muslim, I do this for a living, but we do not want to be complacent like Moez said, and so if you vote against this motion, you're basically saying on March 3rd, 2008, Muslims have done all that they could and basically we don't have to do anything else from here on forward, and we are saying that we need to accept the motion, because as Muslims, it is our Islamic teaching that we always strive for perfection, even though we never attain it, we never, ever lose focus from that ideal and we keep moving forward.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right Moez Masoud, do you want to come in?
MOEZ MASOUD
Well, on March 3rd for example, which is today, the common word message which is an effort by 138 fully representative across-the-board Muslim scholars, leaders, are meeting with Christian leaders to commit to the fact that based on love thy God and love thy neighbour, that's just one effort today that no-one knows anything about.  Well, I'll talk later, go on.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
But if they don't know about it, does that make a difference?
MOEZ MASOUD
Well, that's the thing.  Then instead of saying we're failing, we can say, 'Look, we haven't succeeded yet, now let's tell people about all these other things that make orthodoxy main-stream.'
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
So when you're saying you're not succeeding, doesn't that necessarily mean failing?
MOEZ MASOUD
Not really, not in logic and semantics.  It means that you haven't eradicated the problem, but failing, the problem with failing at the emotional level is that it implies it's over.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, we're going to take, rather than get lost in semantics, we're going to take a question from the gentleman up there, on the end of the row.   
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I'm saying that maybe Muslims are failing to combat extremism because they're combating their real enemies.  America's problem is combating extremism.  We are not suffering from extremism as America does.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Do you have a question?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
So that's my comment, but I'm saying that what else should America do to combat extremism? This is the question, not what Muslims should do.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, what America is doing is that we're going to elect a new President in 2009 that is not George W. Bush.  Now, in the same light, in the same breath that I condemn Osama Bin Laden, I have been the first one to condemn George W. Bush for all his catastrophic policies that he's undertaken and that's the thing.  It's not the Bushian doctrine of, 'You're either with us or you're against us.'  You know, most of the world, like we see all different colours of the rainbow here tonight, you know, we represent all different backgrounds, all different faiths, we have lost this culture of humanity, we're a global community.  We must, you know, if my brother commits an act that is wrong, I have the responsibility to call him out on that, but we are going to elect a new President in 2009.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ed Husain, you want to say something.
ED HUSAIN
On the back of what Arsalan has said, it's worth bearing in mind that, you know, for all of America's faults that this problem started at home among us here in the Muslim East and it's for us to sort out, and don't forget, going back 1400 years, our Prophet said to us,  beware of extremism in your faith, so it's a reality that's always been there, and in the Koran Allah talks about this religion being the carrier of this faith, the prophet being a mercy to the world, so the onus is on us to sort out our houses, and rather than, you know, this Arabic phrase that I picked up in Damascus loom al-Akherin,  the blame on the others all the time, we've got to change that mindset and unless we do that, we will continue to be the laughing stock of the world.  Tonight is your chance to actually start the ball rolling in the opposite direction.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
The lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'd like to direct my question to Mrs. Daisy Khan.  Again you mentioned ordinary citizens in Iraq, but the ordinary citizen in Iraq is receiving two to three hundred dollars at most and I think half of the people here in this hall spend that amount of money in a week.  How do you expect an average citizen to rise above and combat without the basic physiological needs such as water, electricity, medical care, how are they supposed to rise above and combat extremism?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Where are you from, by the way?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'm Iraqi.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You're Iraqi.
DAISY KHAN
Well, I think the Koran teaches us that a condition of a people does not change unless you change yourself.  Change really has to start from the individual.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
How can you change a person ...
DAISY KHAN
I understand that.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
... that has no principles, no morals?
DAISY KHAN
We have poverty, we have no water, I'm not talking about those people who are destitute.  I'm talking about people like you, what are you doing about creating the change?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I have no country to go back to.
DAISY KHAN
You start right here, start right here, do something.  I'm telling you, I started, right after the Rushdie affair started, Salman Rushdie whose books were being banned, I didn't know what to do.  I was in despair, I was an American Muslim all by myself.  I started a study group in my apartment just to understand my faith, to understand how I was going to fight this fight, and that's where my activism began.  You don't have to change the whole world, just change your world, your little world, starting with you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'm sorry but again, if they can't survive as humans without the basic physiological needs, you were in your apartment in America, with water, with electricity.  I'm sorry, no offence, but an average citizen, if you're talking average citizen in Iraq, they don't have those physiological needs.
DAISY KHAN
As I said, those who are capable of doing it should create the change for them.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, you want to say something, Moez Masoud?
MOEZ MASOUD
Yeah, I just want to say that we do have problems, we do have problems and I just want to say that, you know, being on this side isn't very comfortable either, but the idea is that these problems can be solved by, you see, in other words ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Something tells me you'd quite like to be on that side.
MOEZ MASOUD
Well, that's the thing though, is that if it wasn't failing, I very well would have been there.  I agree with Arsalan, this whole ends justify the means.  It's completely un-Islamic and it needs to be fully rejected and don't ever misunderstand my sitting here that I in any way, shape or form think that ends can justify means, so we do have problems and I think that regardless of how bad the situation gets, it's God who is testing us.  We need to go back to these principles.  What I would like, and the reason I'm on this side is, because I see the efforts of the orthodoxy that preaches these principles, and we need to put the light on it.  The problem, back to this one last time, Arsalan, the problem with failing here as opposed to not succeeding is that in my opinion frankly it's counter-productive, because it means that your efforts are not being appreciated.  That's how I hear it and that's how I would hear the masses hearing it.  That's not going to help and orthodox efforts.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ed Husain, you wanted to say something here?
ED HUSAIN
No, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You didn't look impressed.
ED HUSAIN
I want to get away from semantics, let's talk about the meat of the matter.
MOEZ MASOUD
The second part of my statement was the meat.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, OK.
MOEZ MASOUD
The first was the bread. 
TIM SEBASTIAN 
We'll go to a question from the lady in the fifth row.   
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This question is for the panel against the motion.  Right now you think that not enough is being done to fight Muslim extremism, but do you believe that there is any hope for anything to be done about it in the near future, and if so, what do you suggest?
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, first of all we're for the motion and so you should be voting for us at the end of all of this. Again, you know, as someone who has spent his entire professional career being the Muslim lawyer after 9/11, having to deal with unlawful detentions of Muslims, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, I have been called everything from a terrorist by the right-wing Neo-Cons in America to a Muslim hippy by some of our Muslim brothers and sisters, and so, all four of us are friends.  We all work in the same circles, we all believe not only in Islam but we believe in our community, and just because I am here as a critical self-thinker, the consequence of reflection I think is of key importance because we are quick, we are almost bullet-fast in terms of condemning others when Muslims are the victims, but unfortunately it seems as though we don't have that same vigour, we don't have that same conviction when it comes to our own people, and again going back to the hadiths of the Prophet  sallu'la wa'sallem we help our brothers and sister, whether they are the oppressed or the oppressor. 
TIM SEBASTIAN 
I'm going to move on to a question from the gentleman in the third row there please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
This is just for brother Iftikhar.  I think Muslims in America have lived in America for the last 18 years, and I think they're doing an awesome job, but to me it seems like you're trying to have the people here today but in their minds very strongly 25% of Americans who say that they don't like to live next to a Muslim.  Don't you think those are the people who regularly listen to people like Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Michael Savage, all this media who has actually done to the American people themselves, and I'm one of them myself, a disservice by trying to actually undo the good things that Muslims all over the world who are against extremism and terrorism are trying to do, and this is my question.
ARSALAN IFTAKHAR
And it's a very valid point and unfortunately I have to deal with a lot of these right-wing nut jobs in the American media. But the heart of the matter that I was trying to get at is that one in four Americans, so we have about 350 people here tonight, what if 75-80 of them said that they do not want to live next to a Pakistani or a Sudanese or a Shia?  Would we say that's an insignificant portion of this populace?  One-fourth of a nation of 300 million is not something that can be ignored, and so we have to look at the magnitude of the problem.  It's not one in a hundred, it's one in four, so for four of us, if we were all Americans and non-Muslims, one of us wouldn't want you as a neighbour, and I find that problematic.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I do agree with that, let me take it to the other side because they are saying we are not failing.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
We're just taking it to the other side, Moez Masoud.
MOEZ MASOUD
Don't ignore but ask why, that's the whole point.  Again, you want to get to the meat of the matter, we have to be very practical.  The meat of the matter is going back to orthodox Islam.  The reason is that extremism is an idea.  You can't get rid of it, you have to get rid of the idea itself, you can't just get rid of the acts.
ED HUSAIN
I totally, totally agree with your prognosis to the situation that it's a return to orthodox, classical, formative, traditional Islam.  However, the big caveat is this, that we're up against a machine which functions in various countries known as the Saudi Embassy .which is pumping in millions of dollars over the last two, three decades which we're not up against.  Medina University is doing a lot of damage which may well be undoing much of the good work that Al-Azhar and Zeitouna are doing now, so unless we, you know, it's all well and good being positive, yes, but we've also got to be negative and say, 'There's the nub of the problem, guys,' and unless we're open about that, I am sorry we will never get around the issue.
MOEZ MASOUD
And I agree with you and let me ask you, so who's doing more right now, the radicals doing the damage or the orthodox institutions who are doing the repairing?  What do you think?
ED HUSAIN
Right now the jury's out.  It remains to be seen in 10 years' time which side wins.
MOEZ MASOUD
Well, so therefore then this motion can't really be voted for.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, no, it can because if you look at it, the radicals, they're getting the air time.
MOEZ MASOUD
See, that takes us back to a non-representative sample with a loud voice.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
But Moez, perception is reality.  Hold on.  The rest of the non-Muslim world is woefully under-educated and ignorant about Islam, and so when they see olive-skin males with beards and turbans toting AK 47s, talking about how they want to kill the infidels, you know, they might not have any negative preconceptions about Muslims, but I assure you, once you see that on the evening broadcast every single night, you're going to start to think, 'Maybe I don't want to be around these people'.
MOEZ MASOUD
Then put this orthodoxy on the broadcast every single night, that's what we're doing and calling for.
DAISY KHAN
I think there's a major shift going on here and that is why I said I think that Arab extremism is over, and I'm not saying it's over, over, over.  I'm saying it's over.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
What's the difference?
DAISY KHAN
Well, there's a graph.
MOEZ MASOUD
Well, one's three, one's one.
DAISY KHAN
It's a blip, it's waning, it's going down. 
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Over means finished, whether you repeat it three times or say it once.
ED HUSAIN
The Arab prisons are full of extremists.
DAISY KHAN
I know that.
ED HUSAIN
Western intelligence is busy hunting these guys down up and down the world and you're telling me ...
DAISY KHAN
They're just bad guys.
MOEZ MASOUD
Do you appreciate the efforts of Tasheeh Al-Mafahim, the correction of understandings, that happened with Jama'at Al-Islamiya renounce terrorism?
ED HUSAIN
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
MOEZ MASOUD
And you still draw a conclusion that it's a failure?
DAISY KHAN
What I was going to say is, I want to thank the Doha Debates.  This is the first time I'm actually on a forum like this.  I've been cited in many media.  I've been cited in almost 22 media outlets in the last four months.  I'm saying this is the first time somebody has asked me to discuss this very issue, and I hope with the 200 million audience that you have or whatever staggering number of audience that you have, that the world will begin to see the work that Muslims are doing, and I do really ask you to vote for this side, because there are many of us doing this work and you don't want to disempower us.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, we're going to take a question from the lady in the third row.   
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to the panel against.  I really appreciate the work you've done for combating extremism, but I also feel that how do you view and how do you hope to combat and probably negotiate with extremists, power-hungry maniacs or bombing countries and killing so many people?  I mean, how do you want to make that difference and how do you want to get them to care as much as we do here?
MOEZ MASOUD
How I do it personally and it works, is that I get rid of false religion.  I get rid of self-righteousness masquerading itself as spirituality.  I talk to them about principle, and this is where Ed and I would be in agreement again, about principle and how not to give up principle at all, no matter how much you are being dealt with unjustly, and that really works with Muslims because that's real spirituality, again only exclusively available at orthodoxy.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, gentleman in the fourth row.  You have a question.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The question is addressed to the panel against the motion.  You have been talking all night about the tidal waves going around, but what about the extremism in countries where there is no understanding of this tidal wave?   
DAISY KHAN
Well, I think that amplifying this on BBC today, I hope that this will reach many people in the region and in the world, and people will begin to recognise that they are courageous people in the world, because everybody needs to be led by somebody else and we need visionary leaders who will lead the way for others, and I'm hoping that this tidal wave that I see certainly in the United States, I see a cross-section of people coming together to create peace and tranquillity and this is why I agree with that side of the panel just on this one issue, that I think that by voting a new President, we will have a sea-change in America, because America is fed up of extremist thought, and they too are creating the change.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Arsalan Iftikhar, a brief point and then we'll take a final question.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
We are all a part of this tidal wave.  We have all done the work, trying to give an accurate picture of Islam and Muslims.  Daisy talked about the 22 media outlets that she's been on.  I've been on every media outlet in the world and the first question that they ask me is, why don't we hear Muslims condemn terrorism more, and I have gotten so sick and tired of that question because for many people, I will agree, if every Muslim stood on every street corner with a megaphone and yelled, 'We condemn terrorism for the rest of our lives,' some people would not listen.  But to somehow say that what we have done is enough is being complacent.  It is not consistent with the teachings of Islam, it is not consistent with our role as Muslims in this world today.  It is imperative, it is imperative for us as Muslims, as self-reflective Muslims, as sincere Muslims who want to see the advancement of Islam as a global player in the world for centuries to come to not only have the moral clarity to point out the flaws of foreign policy initiatives around the world, but also has that equal moral clarity to look within ourselves.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, all right.  We're going to take a final question from the lady in the fourth row there, you have your hand up.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question's to Mr. Iftikhar.  You keep alluding back to this neighbour statistic and all this stuff.  I was wondering, do you want us to apologise for all these statistics, because I feel what you're trying to say is that we should apologise for what's going on, even though I think that by doing so, it's pretty much us taking the blame for what's going on, like what people think of us, so I'm not really sure what you have to do.
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
Well, I can rattle off about 30 more statistics that would pretty much startle you.  What I'm trying to say is that unfortunately to people who are under-educated or ignorant about Islam, they see Islam as a monolith.  They think all Muslims are Arabs, all Arabs are Muslims, vice-versa, complete fallacies about Islam, and I think that it is our duty to educate, and so when I quote statistics like this, I think that we are not doing enough in order to combat this mis-education, this mis-information and Islamophobia, latent Islamophobia that is going on.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Let me just put the question to Ed Husain.  Do you want Muslims to apologise?
ED HUSAIN
Apology isn't enough.  We need Muslims to rectify, we need Muslims to put an end to extremism, and it's not about apologising and then everything's back to normal.  It's about admitting that we have a problem and I think that's where passing the motion in favour tonight puts our colours on the mast and says, 'Muslims in the heart of the Middle East, here in Doha, in Qatar, realise, recognise, admit that we have a deep, deep problem,' and it's from this point onwards that we commit globally in the public space to solving it, and you know, apologies are jolly good, but let's get beyond apologies and get to real action.
TIM SEBASTIAN  (to questioner)
You wanted to come back on that?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes.  Isn't it kind of like taking the blame though, because I know that roughly two percent of the two billion Muslims out there are the ones with these extremist views and stuff, but ...
ARSALAN IFTIKHAR
There's collective German guilt for the holocaust 60 years later after it's happened.  Demographics have taken collective guilt.  I'm not saying that it is our responsibility but it does become our responsibility when co-religionists of ours claim to use our faith in order to springboard their own perverted political agenda, it is our duty to reclaim that and that is why we need to all vote for the motion.

TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ladies and gentlemen, we've come to the point in the proceedings, we're going to vote on the motion, that 'This House believes that Muslims are failing to combat extremism.'  Would you please take your voting machines?  If you want to vote for the motion, that is, the side represented by Ed Husain and Arsalan Iftikhar, please press button one, the yellow one.  If you want to vote against the motion, that is the side represented by Daisy Khan and Moez Masoud, would you press button two, the red one, and would you please do that now. 
All right.  There's the figure on the screen.  70.4% for the motion, 29.6 against.  The motion has been resoundingly carried.  All that remains for me to do is to thank our distinguished speakers for coming here tonight, you've come a long way.  And thank you to you, the audience, for your questions.  The Doha Debates will be back again next month.  Till then, from all of us on the team, have a safe journey home.  Good night.  Thank you.