This House believes that George Bush has kicked open the door to democracy in the Middle East

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and a very warm welcome to this, the latest in our series of Doha Debates here in the Arabian Gulf at the headquarters of the Qatar Foundation.  Now, if you are with us for the first time, this is a forum where we argue over the most controversial issues in the Arab and Islamic world, and our motion tonight is no exception.  'This House believes that George W. Bush has kicked open the door to democracy in the Middle East', a blunt motion that's bound to produce some pretty blunt speaking in support and against it.  In favour of the motion, Fouad Ajami.  He's President of Middle Eastern Studies at Johns Hopkins University in Washington DC, and a passionate supporter of American intervention in the region.  Salameh Nematt is the Jordanian-born Bureau Chief of the Al-Hayat Newspaper in Washington.  Not afraid to make himself unpopular, he says there isn't a single regime in the Arab World that could run a free election and win.  Opposing the motion, there's Syrian national Ghayth Armanazi.  For ten years he was the Arab League's representative in London.  He's also the founder of the Arab International Media Forum.  And with him is Azzam Tamimi, the Palestinian director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought in London.  He's a supporter of the militant group Hamas and he's just returned from groundbreaking talks in Beirut between an American delegation, Hizbollah and Hamas. Ladies and gentlemen, this is our panel.  Now let me call straightaway for Professor Fouad Ajami to speak in support of the motion.

FOUAD AJAMI
Thank you very much, thank you, Tim, thank you ladies and gentlemen. I'm really honoured to be in Doha. This is my first visit to Qatar and I'm really touched and thrilled to see such an exercise in this place. Now, I just, since I am a university professor, that's how I earn my living, I just need to ask if there are any students in the audience, and I would like to see a show of hands. Professors always do this to students, show of hands. It's great to see you here. I know that this is your spring break, and your dedication to public issues that you will take time from your spring break to be here is touching. I can't say I would have done it myself. I think I would have been on spring vacation, but I'm really touched that you're here.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're not going to appeal for votes all the way through, are you?
FOUAD AJAMI
I am already, that's exactly it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Audience, be warned. It's a tactic.
FOUAD AJAMI
I should also tell you something which I'm reluctant to tell students. Salameh and I did no preparation for this debate, because we felt our case was so easy and so good and so airtight that there was no need to do any preparation in advance. With this, I just have a few opening remarks about the contribution of George W. Bush to political liberty and political freedom in the Arab, Islamic world. I want you to know that I call President Bush the Christopher Columbus of political liberty in the Arab World, and I'll explain. As you know, when Columbus left the port of Palos, he was looking for a route to India, he was looking for some spices, and he ended up discovering the New World. Now, maybe that was a monumental blunder, shall we say, but it was great. Now Bush we know was looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and when these weapons were not found, he stumbled upon, tripped over, if you don't like him, he stumbled upon the cause of political liberty, and it began, the search for political liberty, and this accomplishment began, as we know, in Afghanistan when a narco-terrorist state was overthrown and a decent government open to elections was chosen. We then continued the journey, I say 'we' meaning the American journey, we continued the effort and we struck into Iraq and we destroyed the regime of Saddam Hussein. We demolished the statues. We tore down the statues and we chased the dictator to a spider hole, and we broke the spell of dictatorship in the region, and thus began the revolution of Purple Ink. Next came Palestine and the change in the Palestinian world where President Bush held the Palestinians to a higher standard. He refused to deal with Yasser Arafat. Thirdly, there was the Kefaya Movement in Egypt, enough is enough, enough of the dictator. Then came the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon, where we pledged American power with the help of the French and the international community, to evict Syria out of Lebanon, so the Cedar Revolution. All in all we were willing for a change to that on the cause of freedom and liberty, and I think that there is something, I just want to read you two sentences and I'll stop. In a celebrated speech before the National Endowment of Democracy in 2003, President Bush said what follows: "60 years of western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty." We decided we would take liberty's risk and we would ride this roller coaster of freedom in the Arab Islamic World, and it was not a moment too soon, it was time, and I think there is much to commend about this effort. It's halting, it's dangerous, it's not always consistent but the march toward it has begun. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Professor, thank you very much indeed. If America has been serious about the march of freedom, why does it go on paying for those regimes it's regarded as repressive? That would have been a clear signal, not just the words.
FOUAD AJAMI
Well, I mean, remember, he himself, it was a mea culpa, when he said American policy has been wrong. He acknowledged ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And he's in a position to change it ...
FOUAD AJAMI
And he has changed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... but he hasn't.
FOUAD AJAMI
Well, he has changed it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why? Has Egypt stopped receiving $2 billion a year?
FOUAD AJAMI
No, but in fact we've begun to tackle the question of Egypt. You know, the 9/11 commission report talked about Saudi Arabia and Egypt, and it described them as problematical allies. We have begun to deal with problematical allies.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And in Iraq, what has been the march of freedom there? Thousands of dead Iraqis, unregistered by the people who may have caused their deaths, and a partial election which has caused political deadlock.
FOUAD AJAMI
Well, look, I am a hawk on the war in Iraq. I believe and still believe in this war. I think it was a just war, I think it was a good war, and I think that the results for the Iraqi people have been vindicated. 8½ million people went to the polls, risked life and limb and chose political liberty and chose to break with a history of tyranny in Iraq.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Professor, thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ghayth Armanazi, I'm sure you don't agree with very much that's been said so far. Please, your thoughts against the motion.

GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Thank you, Tim. Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to appeal for your support in soundly and decisively defeating this motion. There is indeed a stirring of democracy in our part of the world, which is a good thing, which is something we all should be supporting, but I put it to you that this stirring of democracy has happened despite, and not because of US intervention, because US intervention comes with self-destructive baggage of its own making. The baggage, I will refer to them just in cold words: Palestine, Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, Abu-Ghraib, take your pick. This is the baggage that US policy is bringing with its drive, or so-called drive for democracy in the Middle East. Is that an example we ought to be looking at? I doubt it very much. Let's also perhaps look at the gurus or godfathers of US democratisation, offensive that we're seeing today. Who are they, who are these people? One of them for example is supposed to have been the inspiring force behind George W. Bush, is Nathan Sharansky, the Israeli right-wing politician. Nathan Sharansky makes Sharon look moderate in terms of his support for Palestinian human rights, so to speak. We know all about what he's doing in Palestine, what he stands for in Palestine. He's against for example even the withdrawal from Gaza, yet he is supposed to be helping George Bush, or inspiring George W. Bush in his approach to democracy in the Middle East. How can he have people like that supposedly being your gurus in that campaign? Another person is Elliot Abrahams, convicted by the way of lying to Congress about the Iran Contra affair back in the 80's. This man is now appointed in the National Security Council of the United States as Director for Democracy, Human Rights, and wait for it, International Operations, International Operations, the mind boggles at what that means. So there we have it, these are the people we're dealing with. Of course all of these people are run by one organisation in particular in America and they are the driving force, it is AIPAC, it is the Zionist lobby in America, they are behind much of what we see today as a rhetoric coming from Washington towards the Arab countries. The more the US beats the drum of democracy, the more precarious, I say to you, the position of advocates of democracy in the Middle East. It is like the kiss of death to democrats in the Middle East who want to transform their countries, but by association with the kind of people and forces we see in America, they are defeating their own cause. Look at for example the difference the American approach and the EU approach to the question of democracy. The EU gives one billion dollars a year to help reform and democratic change in the Middle East, but it doesn't make a brouhaha about it, it doesn't shout on the rooftops that 'That's what we're doing,' it doesn't make that as part of some kind of strategic campaign in defence of its interests. That's how politics works in our part of the world, not the battering down and the forcing into submission of peoples and societies.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ghayth Armanazi, please, come to a conclusion.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Yes, well, my conclusion is, if somebody comes down kicking at your door, that is illegal, unlawful intrusion, and don't be surprised if they then slam that door in your face. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much. Do you seriously think Hamas and Hizbollah would have been sitting down with an American delegation where Dr. Tamimi was present in Beirut if America hadn't shaken the tree in the region?
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Well, it depends. I believe it was more the Americans realising what a force Hamas is and what Hizbollah is rather than the other way round.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the meeting still took place.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
They have started to recognise that these are genuine expressions of a particular section of Palestinian and Lebanese society that cannot be ignored.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would a new Palestinian president by the same token have done more to curb militants in weeks than Yasser Arafat did in years if it hadn't been for American pressure in the region?
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
But can I remind you that Yasser Arafat is a democratically, or was a democratically elected president of Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And so was Mr. Abbas.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Those claiming that we are in favour of democracy should not have dealt with Arafat, and ostracised him and forced him into a position that he was forced into.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you didn't see democracy with the Palestinian elections?
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Yes, but democracy didn't start now. There were Palestinian elections in 1996, democratic elections. Why aren't they mentioned today? Why are we supposed to believe that elections and democracy started with George W. Bush?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Salameh Nematt, please, will you speak in favour.

SALAMEH NEMATT
I'd like to begin by saying that democracy is not an invention of George W. Bush. It's a humanitarian value and it's a right for every human being. Now, I'd like to also begin by not what Bush is saying or is promising for the region now, but I'd like to start by what he's done already in the first four years. Most importantly he brought down the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, a regime from the Dark Ages I do not need to tell you about, and he brought down the regime of Saddam Hussein. He was looking for weapons of mass destruction. Now, what George Bush has missed and it seems many people in the region, is that Saddam Hussein himself was the weapon of mass destruction, being responsible for the death of about one million people in his war with Iran, his invasion of Kuwait, his killing of his own people, and it's really scandalous for everybody including the western media that we only found out about 300,000 people buried in mass graves after the fall of the regime, although the western media was in Baghdad throughout that period. As far as I'm concerned I couldn't care less if it was the devil himself who brought down that regime, because freedom, when somebody is sitting on your chest, you really don't care who's the one who's going to save you, you just want to be saved. In that sense I wouldn't go as far as saying that George Bush decided he wants to do good in the world and he wanted to free all these people in the Middle East, but at least I think that George Bush's nationalist interests meet today with those of the reformers in the Middle East, and I think that in the sense that the Bush administration has linked terrorism with a lack of freedom, with the presence of tyrannies in the Arab world, tyrannies that do not allow freedom of expression, drive people towards extremist solutions including desperate solutions such as committing suicide in order to kill others rather than resolve things politically, and if George W. Bush's aims which are American national security interests, meet with mine, I'm not going to oppose democracy simply because he is promoting them. In Iraq the moment the Saddam Hussein regime fell, almost a few days later newspapers started sprouting all over the place, dozens of political parties were formed. They did not need the Americans to help them do it. All they needed is just to get rid of the grip of that bloody dictator. 140 newspapers today, 60 or 80 political parties in Iraq, did not need licensing from anybody. This is much better than anything we have anywhere else in the Arab world. Not a single Arab country will give you a licence for a television or a newspaper unless you go through the security system and you are one of their cronies, and this is happening in Iraq today. Who's doing the killing today? Everybody points at, look at Iraq, do you want this democracy as you see it in Iraq, and I tell them, the ones who are doing the killing are the terrorists and those who are linked with regimes in the region who are afraid of the success of the Iraqi experiment. There is no genuine, legitimate resistance in Iraq. There are murderers who try to kill democracy, it is resistance to democracy, not resistance to the Americans. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much indeed. Do you seriously think that the number of newspapers compensates for the failure of the occupying powers to provide security to the citizens of Iraq?
SALAMEH NEMATT
No, it does not. Security is important, but I believe that those who are responsible for the failure of security are the ones who are outraging ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But whose responsibility is it to provide security, to put sufficient troops in there to provide security ...
SALAMEH NEMATT
I think ultimately it is the responsibility of the Iraqis themselves, but they need time before they build their own security and their own military establishments to be able to handle it themselves, and I think that the Americans on their own cannot do it. The Iraqis are the ones to do it but let's take into consideration the Iraqis are in the neighbourhood that is opposed to the democracy project in Iraq. They de-legitimised the elections before they took place, they ignored them after they took place. The Jordanian newspaper published the results of the elections on page 19. They do not want to see any democracy because they're afraid that this virus will spread in the region. These are the people trying to undermine it. Not a single Arab leader has visited the Iraqis to try to give them some kind of support against the terrorists undermining the democracy project. Not a single Arab leader visited. They were visiting Saddam all the time.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, Condolezza Rice even cancelled a visit because she didn't have a government to talk to, so you can't blame the Arab leaders. She didn't go either.
SALAMEH NEMATT
The American president visited Baghdad, many top officials have visited Baghdad despite the security situation. I don't see why the Arab leaders find it more important than the American president.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the democratic project is deadlocked, isn't it?
SALAMEH NEMATT
It's not, it's not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They are supposed to have a constitution by November. They're not going to have it.
SALAMEH NEMATT
It's a functioning democracy. It's good that they did not hook up a government very fast. They're doing consultations with all the political forces in the parliament.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And it's not a dangerous vacuum?
SALAMEH NEMATT
This is after 35 of a bloody dictator. You cannot just expect things to work out so smoothly as if there'd been an ancient democracy. It will take time but they're going on the right track.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Azzam Tamimi, are you convinced by that? Please, you comments against the motion.

AZZAM TAMIMI
Well, ladies and gentlemen, I do urge you to vote against the motion. It's a motion that does a great injustice to the victims of the policies of this administration in Washington today. It is pathetic in my opinion to give credit to George Bush and his administration that have been creating crimes against humanity all over the world. I am a strong believer that the Arab world, the Muslim world, and the world at large, and the American people themselves would be much better if there was genuine democracy in this part of the world. If the Arabs and Muslims were to democratise, then it will better for all of us to including the American people. Other successive American administrations have always hindered democratisation in this part of the world. Enormous influence by the Zionist lobby, by the supporters of Israel, caused these successive administrations to think that democracy was not in favour of the American interests, that if the peoples in the Arab world or in the Muslim world were to choose freely, were to be free, that might have resulted in governments not to the liking of the White House. Now, this current administration is even worse because this administration has added an ideological component to the strategic position. It is an administration that is fuelled by a Straussian philosophy, a philosophy that believes that society is divided into two classes: the class of the masses who need to be told only what they need to know, and the class of those who rule, a philosophy that believes that the masses don't know what's good for them and therefore you have to do what's good for them, a philosophy that believes in the power of religion, not a faith, not as a source of a code of morality, but as a tool in order to control the population. Machiavellian and Hobsian at the same time, this is what Strauss was about and this is what Perle, Wolfowitz and all the people who are behind this administration are about, anti-democratic, illiberal, the most undemocratic of all the administrations in the history of the United States of America. Now, the fact that the United States of America is in real predicament, is in real trouble, is what motivates this interest. It's a camouflage, it's a language to cover the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, a failure in the policy in the Middle East, and the reason why the Americans came to Lebanon, to meet Hamas and Hizbollah is that these former American officials can see that the country is in real trouble and they've come to see for themselves if there is an exit out of this predicament in which George W. Bush has put them in, so vote against the motion because George W. Bush and his administration are not interested in democracy. They are only interested in their interests and their primary interest now is to get out of the predicament they have placed themselves in. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Tamimi, if it was all such a failure, the actions of the United States, how do you get away from the fact that they've held democratic free elections in Iraq, the first for decades, and the Palestinians have successfully held their democratic elections for president, despite the fact that you warned the elections would be fixed before they took place?
AZZAM TAMIMI
Didn't you laugh, Tim, when you heard George W. Bush say that the Syrians must get out of Lebanon because elections cannot be held under occupation, didn't he allow ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, could you answer that question first before we discuss whether I laughed or not.
AZZAM TAMIMI
How can you hold an election when the Sunni community of Iraq, which is not a minority, by the way, is excluded from the proceedings?
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're saying the election was invalid.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Of course invalid under occupation, just as George W. Bush said.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And yet millions of people turned out and exercised their democratic right despite the problems, you don't take any account of that.
AZZAM TAMIMI
They turned out because of the power of religion which George W. Bush knows very well how to manipulate. Grand Ayatollah Sistani helped them by mobilising people to the election booth but when the election results came out, the Americans were taken. 'Oh, there's going to be another Iran in Iraq,' so they wanted people to go and elect and vote so that ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it was an invalid election, you are saying.
AZZAM TAMIMI
In my opinion, Iraq must first be freed and then let the people decide what they want to do with themselves.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And the Palestinian election, that was invalid as well?
AZZAM TAMIMI
The Palestinian election is done ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You warned that it would be fixed beforehand. You were very sceptical about the Palestinian election.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Of course the presidential elections were fixed. Didn't you see what happened to Marwan Barghouti, they sent them invoice after invoice to tell him in prison that if you did not withdraw your candidacy, no help will come from the European Union, no help will come from the world community. Mahmoud Abbas had to be guaranteed as the sole ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you seriously think the Palestinians listened to that when they voted?
AZZAM TAMIMI
They knew, the Palestinians knew that ...
SALAMEH NEMATT
Something like 8½ million Iraqis who went to the vote, you're saying that they were told how to vote by the American occupation, and you're insulting the Palestinians who voted for Abbas, 70% of the people actually voted, went to the polls and they voted for him in a majority, and you're saying that they were all basically forced to do that because of the occupation, that they basically, you know, did not say, you know, vote for whom they wanted.
AZZAM TAMIMI
You see, a democracy is not just an election. If you reduce democracy to an election and then manipulate the election the way you like, decide who the candidates are, who can stand ...
SALAMEH NEMATT
You said the Sunnis boycotted, the Americans did not exclude the Sunnis from the election. Zarqawi is the one who convinced the Sunnis not to go to the polls ...
AZZAM TAMIMI
No, it wasn't Zarqawi.
SALAMEH NEMATT
... because he's against democracy, that democracy is bad for you.
AZZAM TAMIMI
It was the mythical idea that there was a Sunni effect in the mythical Sunni Triangle that the Iraqi opposition so corruptively sold to the Americans, and the Americans bought it. When the Americans entered into Iraq, they bombarded the Sunnis, they dehumanised the Sunnis and turned the Sunnis into enemies of the occupation. The Sunnis probably would have reacted differently had they not been targeted primarily by the Americans.
SALAMEH NEMATT
The Sunnis decided to boycott the election, and the terrorists, they allied themselves with the terrorists who did not want the election to take place, because they know that they're losing power because they're in the minority. They do not want a majority to take over.
AZZAM TAMIMI
You come into the country, you destroy it, you destroy its army, you destroy its infrastructure, you impose yourself on it, you open the borders to all sorts of people, you create a haven for people who want to ...
SALAMEH NEMATT
So you say Saddam Hussein with his mass graves was doing much better?
AZZAM TAMIMI
It's the Americans who caused havoc in Iraq, who caused the anarchy and who are responsible for everyone that is killed in Iraq.
SALAMEH NEMATT
And who supported Saddam Hussein in the past? They supported him, they provided him with weapons.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me hear from the other two members of this panel for a moment. Fouad Ajami, would you come in?
FOUAD AJAMI
Look, it's kind of pathetic, even the style, even the argument, I mean, this is the voice of the past, the way you've done that, the way you've responded, the way you've responded to the critique, the way you phrase this argument. The Arab world has had it with all this. The idea is to change this region, the idea is to change it, not to just simply keep shouting at it. So what are we saying about democracy? We're saying of course all democracies spring from every society. It's not so much that Bush has remained in this region, but the fact that American power is so dominant in this region, it matters greatly that the dominant power in the world signals a choice, that it has made a choice in favour of liberty. Ladies and gentlemen, you should know that the pax Britannica combated and destroyed piracy, combated and destroyed slavery, combated and destroyed widow burning in India. This is the burden, this is the burden of imperial or dominant or leading powers in the world. America is the leading power in the world. Our ships patrol the Persian Gulf and our power is felt throughout this region. If we wink at dictatorships and say we accept it, it matters greatly. These young people in the plazas of Beirut, if you tell me, if you tell me that these young people would have gone to the street had America been on the side of the autocracy, of the Syrian autocracy, had it signalled that the deal concluded between Bush Senior and Assad Senior 15 years ago, if the people believed it, they would not have gone into the street.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to bring the audience in a moment but Ghayth Armanazi has a point that he wanted to make. I'm going to turn it over to the audience in a second or two.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
You mentioned Lebanon. Can I read to you something written by Professor Charles Harb of AUB, to my knowledge not a Syrian agent. He says ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
American University of Beirut.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Yes. "Many of those promoting this free and democratic revolution are the same autocratic war lords who tore the country apart 15 years ago and have been undemocratically jousting for power ever since. Current developments must be seen, current developments in Lebanon must be seen in the light of opportunistic exploitation by local, regional and international players rather than as a democratic revolution." Professor Charles Harb.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Right. All right. Gentleman in the front row, you have a point to make. Can we get a microphone to you over here, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you. Question for Mr. Salameh. He was talking about the parties and the newspapers. Do you realise that there is no government in Iraq to apply to anywhere, and everywhere else in the world, even in Britain in many instances you have at least to make an application to somebody or another? Iraq is a country without a government, do you agree with that or not, and the question for ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just if we can confine people to one question please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
A question for Professor Ajami: can you have democracy with occupation? I thought democracy by definition is for the people who are free. Thank you.
SALAMEH NEMATT
Well, I'm afraid you got it wrong. There was an Iraqi government, interim Iraqi government. Before that there was a ruling council and they did take many decisions regarding the media. Most important, they did not put any conditions on the licensing, meaning anybody can issue any newspaper, television stations, they can broadcast without any hindrance from the government. This doesn't happen anywhere else. There was an interim government, it was headed by Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, if you haven't heard of him.
FOUAD AJAMI
I mean, this is a very disrespectful view of what happened in Iraq. I was in Iraq, I've gone to Iraq three times since the fall of despotism of Saddam Hussein. I met an interim president, one of the most decent men in public life I've met, Ghazi al-Yawer. I travelled to Kurdestan with the Deputy Prime Minister by the name of Barham Salih, again one of the most talented young leaders of Iraq. Look, you tell me can there be democracy with occupation? The occupation is temporary, my friend, it's temporary, and you know what? Look at Japan, what it did with the gift of a temporary occupation, American occupation, from 1945 to 1952, and what it was able to do with its future and its economy afterwards. Give the Iraqis time, you have to grant them that patience.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azzam Tamimi, I'm not sure everybody heard your interjection, you said 'puppet government,' so you dismiss that idea?
AZZAM TAMIMI
Of course the Americans come in, occupy Iraq, they remove a puppet and bring in a puppet. I mean, who created Saddam Hussein in the first place? Come on, grow up. Saddam Hussein was armed to the teeth by the United States of America, was given chemical weapons to fight the Iranians and kill the Kurds, and then ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But who got rid of him in the end?
AZZAM TAMIMI
Yes, well, they are the masters. They brought someone, they've removed him, they've brought somebody else. Let's talk about the real thing. There is no real democracy unless the people themselves decide to go for it, not a bunch of collaborators going to Washington, begging for intervention and occupation of their country.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Question from the gentleman with the coloured shirt, the 4th, 5th row. Sir, a question please and not a statement.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes. This is directed to Fouad Ajami and I'm just saying every empire in its official discourse has claimed to be different from the others. I think there is a much broader and historical side to a political problem that you have not addressed. How does the US's intervention in Iraq differ from what Britain and France have done in the Middle East erstwhile?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your question is, did in the Middle East and failed, is that the implication of your question, so you're saying, 'This is going to fail as well,' is this the point that you want to make?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes. I just don't think it's different from what the colonial powers have done before in the Middle East.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Professor.
FOUAD AJAMI
Well, I wish you were in my seminar at Johns Hopkins. I invite you to come any time. Look, it's not like we're saying this is this bright moment in the history of the Arab world. I am willing to take the risk of freedom. That really is what I'm willing to do, and I'm willing also to give President Bush and American power, and American diplomacy the following credit. I want to leave you with this phrase that President Bush used when he said, 'We should not succumb to the soft bigotry of low expectations.' There were always low expectations in this region, that the people had, they didn't have democracy in the DNA, they couldn't take that. All we've said now, this is just the beginning, what we've said is, the Arab people can also participate in this democratic wave that have remade major portions of the world such as East Asia and Latin America, and have so far bypassed the Arab world, that's all.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Professor, you talked about an experiment ...
FOUAD AJAMI
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... freedom experiment, thousands and thousands of people have died in this experiment. This is an expensive experiment.
FOUAD AJAMI
Yes. But look, history is cruel. I mean, look at what happened in Syria under the autocracy. That tyranny has nothing to do with American power, yet it heaped enormous sorrow on the Syrians. The tyranny of Saddam Hussein regardless of this business about giving him chemical weapons, the tyranny of Saddam Hussein grew out of the culture, the culture of Tikrit and culture of the Ba'ath Party, and the culture of dictatorship, and the politics of charisma that has wrecked the Arab world, so yes, there has been enormous violence in this region.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mr. Armanazi, I just want him to come in.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
I for one would wish the Iraqi people well and I wish to God they could transform their system into a good democratic system, and as things stand today, they're the worst, the worst example of democratic transformation you can present to the rest of the Arabs. If you ask any Arab today, I can assure you maybe 99% of the Arabs, if you told them, 'You have now a tyranny or an autocratic government, right? In order to replace that government, we give you 100,000 dead from your people,' that's what happened in Iraq, 'we give you lawlessness, we give you all the problems that exist in Iraq today, we give you murder and crime and starvation, everything, the health service is run down, everything that happened as a result of the American invasion,', how many do you think would say, 'Well, I like that democracy, let's do it, let's go that way, let's also experience what the Iraqis experienced for the sake of democracy.' I'm afraid that really gives democracy a bad name for the Arab world.
FOUAD AJAMI
You're almost kind of nostalgic for Saddam Hussein. You're making it seem like it was paradise then.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
No, I don't, but is it worth the price I've just quoted to you? Would any Arab society accept that price as the cost you have to bear in order to pass ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We'll have to move on.
SALAMEH NEMATT
The ones detonating the bombs and killing innocent Iraqis are not the Americans, it's the terrorists who are opposed to the democracy. They're trying to undermine ...
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
More Iraqis were killed by Americans than were killed ...
SALAMEH NEMATT
I don't know where you get your statistics, but I tell you ...
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
The statistics are there to prove it.
SALAMEH NEMATT
... the Second World War 37 million people died.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Instead of talking about numbers, could we ...
SALAMEH NEMATT
Nobody is saying getting rid of Nazism and fascism was a bad thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentlemen, let's stay with the Middle East, and the lady in the sixth row there, you have a question.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Why do Salameh Nematt and Fouad Ajami think that they can come here and preach these pre-packaged neo-conservative ideas or ideology? When the US administration run by these neo-cons has undermined democracy inside the US through undermining civil liberties, and according to all human rights organisations have committed more atrocious human rights practices than any other institution in recent years. So there's the undermining of civil liberties in the US and then we have Arab names promoting the neo-conservative ideas here.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Which of you would like to take that?
FOUAD AJAMI
Well, since I am, as the cat said, I resemble this remark, right, since I am the closest to a neo-con, I don't think Salameh is a neo-con and since Paul Wolfowitz is my colleague and Dean at Johns Hopkins University, I suppose we can respond to this very easily. Look, it's not perfect. Democracy is never perfect. It's a journey, and these remarks about what happened to civil liberties in the United States after September 11 are really false, they're just false. People were you know worried what is going to happen to the Arabs in America. You know what? Nothing happened to the Arabs in America. They're doing extremely well, thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
There was plenty of racial profiling that went on, wasn't there?
FOUAD AJAMI
Yes, but something did happen on the morning ...
AZZAM TAMIMI
Thousands arrested without trial.
FOUAD AJAMI
Something did happen.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Is it worth one of my friends, one of my friends, his wife and his five children in a London suburb don't know why their father was kidnapped from an African country going there on a business trip, ended up in Guantanamo Bay without any redress, without any lawyers speaking for him, without any justice on the earth of America?
FOUAD AJAMI
I don't know anything about your friend, and you know what, a lot of ...
AZZAM TAMIMI
Of course you wouldn't know because you are representing the neo-cons.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But address the principle, you may not know the individual case but address the principle.
AZZAM TAMIMI
The children weeping day and night, waiting for their father to come back.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please let him address the principle.
FOUAD AJAMI
I will be more than happy. Almost every terrorist, I can give you any bet you want, anyone in the audience here, almost every terrorist we have seen, including the father of Mohammad Atta who flew a jet into the north tower at 8.48 am on September 11th, 'Oh, my son is innocent,' 'My husband is innocent.' You know what ...
AZZAM TAMIMI
No, but the Guantanamo guys, the Americans don't have a case against any of them, they don't have a case against anyone, no, I'm talking about the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, let's talk about them, forget Mohammad Atta and his father. What about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners? The Americans cannot put one of them on trial, not a single one.
FOUAD AJAMI
I'm sure they're not the nicest, I'm sure you wouldn't want to go on vacation with any of them but maybe you would, but I wouldn't.
AZZAM TAMIMI
What sort of humanity is this? How can you pre-judge them, how can you judge them as terrorists just because they are arrested by the American neo-cons?
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, you've made the point.
FOUAD AJAMI
They were on vacation in Afghanistan, right, when they were rounded up they were just enjoying the beaches of Kabul?
AZZAM TAMIMI
They were kidnapped from Africa, some of them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, there's a gentleman in the red shirt up there. You have a question?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. I totally agree with Mr. Azzam Tamimi when he says that America is only interested in regimes which support American policy. I have a question for Mr. Ajami. How can a dictator like Saddam Hussein be bad and a dictator like Pervez Musharraf can be good when he is sitting on piles of nuclear arms and he's selling it to others? Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm sorry, could you repeat the question because I'm no sure it was very easy to hear and perhaps a little more slowly.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
What I'm saying is that a dictator like Saddam Hussein is bad but a dictator like Pervez Musharraf who's violating all the democratic laws, he's good and he's given the most favoured nation status. Thank you.
FOUAD AJAMI
Our policy not always consistent. You heard it here first, I'm sure. Life is not consistent, and I know Musharraf, many Pakistanis called Musharraf 'Busharraf', right, Bush and Musharraf. Look, I think Musharraf is a good man. I think he is a modernist. I think he's a modernist. I think he's caught in a terrible bind, in a terrible situation, and I think we've cut him some slack. It's not perfect. You do not have Jeffersonian democracy in very difficult and tormented and poor and disorganised countries, which is the fate of Pakistan. We've judged that Pakistan under Musharraf is better than Pakistan left to the warlords and to the chaos.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
So the drive for democracy as presented to us by George W. Bush is just admitting it is a cynical exercise in opportunism and in serving national interests of the United States of America, otherwise they would have been telling Musharraf, 'Where is democracy in Pakistan?'
FOUAD AJAMI
We sell this problematic alliance, we have been telling the Saudis and the Egyptians were even more important to the American imperials, if you like the word, than Musharraf. We've been telling them, 'Boys, the time is up, it's time to reform, you must open up your societies.'
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
By giving F16's to Musharraf, you are actually telling him how much you want him to actually reform and become a democrat.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me try and do the impossible here and bring you slightly back to the motion in hand, 'This House believes that George W. Bush has kicked open the door to democracy in the Middle East.' Can we take any questions on that particular issue? The lady at the back.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This question is directed at Fouad Ajami. You say you compare George W. Bush to Christopher Columbus who discovered America. Do you seriously think that George W. Bush discovered democracy? I cannot understand how a person like him who goes into a country and totally devastates it, kills the people, and you try to tell me this is democracy? Isn't democracy all about the right of choosing for yourself, the right of freedom? I don't call it freedom killing all these people, devastating a whole country and then saying, 'Yes, I just introduced democracy into the country.'
SALAMEH NEMATT
I think, you know, to start with, I don't think that George Bush decided to go into Iraq just because he enjoys killing people. He went there because American national security required him to go there because that regime was representing a threat to American interests in the region, and threatening his neighbours. We shouldn't forget this regime invaded two countries, Saddam Hussein invaded two countries, and you know, I'm really surprised, you know, while everybody complains about the victims, and of course it's always sad when there's war, you know, it's bound to be ugly, the victims, you know, of the Saddam regime, OK, and nobody complains about, you know, the hundreds of thousands who were killed by Saddam Hussein, nobody cares whether, you know, the Iraqis have a chance at freedom now. Everybody seems to be saying, you know, 'No, no, no, we prefer our dictators, we prefer Saddam Hussein killing people systematically and, you know, let's forget about this democracy business.'
AZZAM TAMIMI
Salameh, this is not the issue. We all agree that if ...
SALAMEH NEMATT
What is the issue?
AZZAM TAMIMI
... a dictator is a brutal person, he deserves to go to hell, there's no question about it. Saddam Hussein and all the dictators in the Arab world who show no respect to their citizens don't deserve even to live, in my opinion, but what we are asking here, why did America do it? Did America go into Iraq to rescue the Iraqi people or because George W. Bush lied to his people and to the world and claimed that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
SALAMEH NEMATT
Everybody knows he had weapons and he used them against his own people.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Then when it was discovered, if I just could complete the sentence, when it was discovered that there was no weapons of mass destruction to be discovered, the whole rhetoric of democracy and civil liberties came to the fore.
SALAMEH NEMATT
Well, the intelligence services were wrong on that. Maybe the weapons still do exist, I don't know.
AZZAM TAMIMI
What is so right about this administration and its services?
SALAMEH NEMATT
I don't know. You know, how can it be, I don't care. You know, if regardless of George Bush's intentions, if his intentions meet with my aspirations to free my people from dictatorship, I'm going to support him.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Can we go back to the questioner. Were you satisfied with the answers that you received? Can we give the microphone back to you please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'm not saying that what Saddam Hussein is doing is right. It's far from right, it's very wrong, but when George W. Bush did not find any weapons of mass destruction, he has gone in and introduced media hype all about democracy. It is not about democracy. Some mistakes cannot be forgiven. I mean, look at what he's doing to a whole country. It's devastated completely and then he tells me all about democracy?
SALAMEH NEMATT
Who's doing the devastation now? Who's doing these bombings, killing of the Iraqis, it's terrorists.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
It's terrorists but this is the aftermath, this is what happens when you devastate a whole country.
SALAMEH NEMATT
But how are you going to win the war?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
It cannot be justified with democracy, you cannot justify this with democracy.
SALAMEH NEMATT
How do you change the regime? You know, many people tried to convince Saddam, you know, the United Arab Emirates tried to convince him to step down to save his people. He doesn't give a damn about his people.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Of course, but what George W. Bush is doing, he's just like Saddam Hussein now. Isn't your argument all about Saddam Hussein killing people?
SALAMEH NEMATT
Yes, but go tell it to 8½ million Iraqis who voted in a democracy that they never thought they would have under Saddam, go tell it to the 8½ million people. The Iraqis tell you that we support finishing off Saddam Hussein, we're willing to take the cost, and we sitting here think, 'No, no, no, the Iraqis shouldn't accept it.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, questions please to this side of the house. Who has a question for this side of the house? You, sir. Let me get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
David Hearst, who is a exceptional correspondent, for years covered the Middle East, wrote on the eve of the war that in the end, despite all the arguments against intervention in the war, from the point of view of the Iraqis who tried every possible way to get rid of Saddam Hussein, even when they in 1991, when the majority of provinces had risen up in revolt and they were crushed, he posed the question, 'What other way is there to get rid of Saddam Hussein?' He said, 'From an Iraqi point of view, anybody who'll get him off their backs will be welcomed even if they're distrusted or disliked,' and my question to you is, if this war is intrinsically wrong, and I'm not talking about the motives or intentions ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your question is to this side of the house.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, I'm asking our friends who are opposed to this resolution, then if this war were intrinsically wrong, then what other way would there be to have ended probably the bloodiest regime in the world since the end of World War II or the Cambodian dictatorship?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azzam Tamimi.
ASSAM TAMIMI
Well, I disagree with you that he was the bloodiest ruler on the face of the earth. There are some Arab rulers who are as bad, if not worse, than him.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you name some?
ASSAM TAMIMI
Colonel Qadaffi who is now your friend, who sold you all the information about nuclear weapons, who put Pakistan and Iran in jeopardy, who had turned from an enemy no. 1 of the United States of America into a beloved one you'd go to bed with.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we go back to the question, the point that the questioner made.
ASSAM TAMIMI
People were hanged on his university campuses in the hundreds. Students who opposed his regime used to be hanged in the hundreds in campuses.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you just deal with, please, with the question that the questioner put to you, please.
ASSAM TAMIMI
Well, I would say, I'd like to remind you of what happened in 1991, when George W. Bush Senior told the Iraqis in the south, the Marsh Arabs, to rise against Saddam Hussein and he said to them, 'We are behind you.' And then somebody advised him from the neo-cons again, 'The alternative would be very bad for us. Let's not go all the way to Baghdad.' He helped Saddam Hussein crush that revolution. You see, what protected the dictators all the while was the same sort of imperial mentalities in those capitals that were only looking for their interests and not the interests of the people in the region.
SALAMEH NEMATT
They changed their minds. They used to back dictators.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Can I say something to that as well?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, I think the questioner wants to reply as well, so say something quickly.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Are you saying, my friend, that this is supposed to be now the legal status for dealing with autocratic regimes and tyrannies around the world? There must be more than a few around. Are you saying that because there are theses tyrannical regimes that it gives the United States in particular and George Bush some kind of legal authority to go in and then overthrow these governments? What kind of law of the jungle are we then advocating?
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, can he answer that, can we get a microphone back to him please. Perhaps you'd better hang on to it for a little while.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, my answer is precisely that in 1991 we, the United States, did betray the Iraqi people and that's a debt that has hung over the United States. It could have been answered in '92 or '93 with continuous violations by the Iraqi regime of the ceasefire agreement, and on that basis, and not weapons of mass destruction which never particularly interested me, but the fact that 80% of the Iraqi people were having their blood bled, you know, leeched by this regime and we betrayed them in '91. That's why I think this particular situation is different, just as, you know, it would be a similar case in World War II.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady at the back of the hall.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Assuming the United States only wanted to eradicate the totalitarian governments in the Middle East and terrorism ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
This is for this side of the house, is it?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
For the people who are arguing for the statement that was presented at the beginning ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, well, now you've started, I really wanted to take some questions to the other side. Please continue.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I wanted to know if they really want, genuinely they want to eradicate totalitarian governments and terrorism, shouldn't they have sent an army who was educated, who would return a positive image of the United States to the Middle East and to Iraq? The images that we received from the prisoners of war who were tortured with such an inhumane, such an inhumane way, we couldn't even, some pictures we couldn't even look at. Where's the human rights?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Fouad Ajami, do you want to answer that?
FOUAD AJAMI
I'm glad you asked this question. I think there is a very straight answer to it and again, let me repeat, I've been in Iraq three times, I've stayed with American military, I've travelled with them, I've lived with them, I've shared their food, I've shared their thoughts about this. You would be amazed. These are the most decent young people that you would have. Were there terrible abuses at Abu Ghraib? Of course. These people are being tried. They are rogue soldiers who acted outside the law and they were being punished and they are being punished. It's not like America is infallible, that there is something, fallibility to the American practice, but if you go all around Iraq and you talk to Iraqi children about the bond they have with the American soldiers, about the regard that the American military has for the life and the property and the dignity of Iraqis, you'll be amazed. These soldiers at Abu Ghraib, the reservists who tormented these people, they were shameful and everyone in our government has repudiated them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Question please for this side of the house. Gentleman up there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you. I'd just like to find out about the actual reformers in the Arab world because they obviously are an integral part of us. The gentleman, Mr. Nematt, made a statement saying that reformers and President Bush have the same agenda currently. Now, obviously looking at the last few years, we've seen Guantanamo, which is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
This is a question for this side. (Against the motion)
AUDIENCE Q (M)
It's for them. Detention without trial, we've seen Abu Ghraib which is humiliation, we've seen the bombing of al-Jazeera office in Iraq, which is a free press, and we've seen countless innocent people being killed, so obviously this doesn't seem like the agenda of a reformist. This seems more like the agenda of the status quo, so maybe you can tell us a bit about actual reformers in the Arab world, who are these people and what do they want. Thank you.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Can I say something about the Arab world?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
As we speak here, some of us have been at this conference going on in Doha on Democracy and Free Trade. This conference is the fifth annual conference, so it started long before George Bush invented democracy for the Middle East, so there are indigenous forces at play here, and we need to nurture these forces, and we need to support them, but we do not go in all guns blazing with tanks and aircraft and battleships in order to impose some kind of democracy, it's something home grown and this is something we ought to be developing and looking at, and there are examples all over the Arab world, and I gave just one example from what's happening here in Qatar.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Salameh Nematt
SALAMEH NEMATT
Well, I'd like to just clarify, I'd never, you know, I don't advocate the use of military power to introduce democracy at the point of a gun, but I do at least expect from the United States to put its money where its mouth it. I would expect it to start isolating and exposing these dictatorships and stop co-operating with them. I feel that the US president should confess that they made a mistake, the United States made a mistake in the past 60 years backing these dictatorships. I'd expect them to start now disengaging with the dictatorships and re-engaging with the reformers and the people, but you know, we'll have to wait and see. This is just announced at the second term of the president and we know the results.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the front row, you've been waiting a while. We'll get you a microphone.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thanks. For the supporters of the motion, you both acknowledge that the American involvement in the Middle East now is for supporting and having American national interests, and this is the main rationale behind a call for democracy in the region. That's fine. What if in 10 years' time another new Columbus discovered, American president discovered that the American national interest lies in the hands of new dictators in the region. Would you change your mind for backing authoritarian regimes in the region then?
FOUAD AJAMI
I'm gratified that my Columbus metaphor has caught fire this evening. I'm really happy. I came up with it at 4 am, facing the anxiety of facing this audience. Look, we're not saying that America is in this region for benevolence. We are drawn to this region by American interests, we know that, it's elementary. We are drawn into it this way. I think as Salameh has so well indicated, when the conclusion was made that autocracy breeds terrorism, autocracy breeds terrorism, that you give $60 billion over 30 years to Hosni Mubarak, and then you get Muhammad Atta to strike at you, we decided it's time to really have a whack at these systems of tyranny, systems of authoritarianism. Now, empires and imperial orders are not Boy Scouts. We know, of course, about the primacy of oil in this strategic calculation, so it's not something, everything is perfect here.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're not convinced by that answer.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The question is, what if in 10 years or 15 years you rediscover that to suppress these terrorists, you have to deal with dictators and they can do the dirty job for you, would you change from democracy to undemocracy?
FOUAD AJAMI
Well, look, we know the democratic wave, since I am a professor I should do this, Samuel Huntington, people know him for the theory, as you know, the clash of civilisations, but he has the more interesting book on democracy, that democracy has waves and then it has reversal. It's very conceivable that this moment we're living in, because the question has been raised whether 2005 for the Arab world is like 1989 for Eastern Europe. We don't know if democracy will stick. We don't know if these reforms will succeed. I can't tell you what the future will bring. I can tell you that now, in the year 2005, there has been a coming together of these Arab experiments, the Arab yearning to name their world and to change their world and reform it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azzam Tamimi, you wanted to come in.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Well, I think as The Economist once said in a lead article, what democracy means to the United States is two things: market economy on the one hand, and not posing a threat to US interests on the other. Now, what would be the attitude of the United States of America if there were genuine democracies somewhere in the world, in Egypt for instance, and the Muslim Brotherhood overwhelmingly won the election. The United States of America would be preparing probably its fleets to attack Egypt and rescue Egypt from what it would consider to be the wrong choice of the people, just as Algerian people's choice was destroyed through the coalescing of both the Europeans and the Americans.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, let's get an answer to that.
FOUAD AJAMI
I didn't see any Americans on ships being launched to Algeria, I mean, that's ridiculous.
AZZAM TAMIMI
No, they had the army do the job for them, the Algerian Army did the job.
FOUAD AJAMI
You know what, there are some things that happen in the world that America just doesn't know anything about and isn't involved in. Ponder that. It's an open possibility.
SALAMEH NEMATT
I think the Americans didn't particularly like Sistani but they didn't do anything about him.
AZZAM TAMIMI
They made use of him. He was an asset.
SALAMEH NEMATT
I think he used the Americans.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Without them they could never have done it. The Sabris were a real potential challenge.
FOUAD AJAMI
I think Sistani is a smart politician in that sense.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, just to remind us that the proposition before us is that 'This House believes that George W. Bush has kicked open the door to democracy in the Middle East.' We're more than halfway through, well over halfway through the programme and we're going to ask you to vote at the end on this. There's a gentleman in the first row here, you have a question for this side of the house, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, thank you very much. I would like to ask you a question. Prior to September 11, as you mentioned only one or two countries started these reforms and elections and on the way of democracy, but after September 11, these countries who have never thought about it running and putting municipal elections, talking about parliamentary election, so they are afraid that what happened in Iraq might be a repeat scenario that will happen somewhere else, but if that's not the case, who do you think will take the action, who will encourage people to do so? For 60, 70 years these regimes have been in power and they've brought back these countries into a complete retardation, poverty, everything. People are running away, you live in the UK, you don't feel the heat like everybody else, but how about the people who live under these regimes? Do you think that standing will get them a democracy? Look at them in Egypt, have been jailed, look at them in Saudi, they've been jailed, look at them in other countries. Even Qadaffi, do you think Qadaffi by shaking hands with the US will remain in power? I think the time will come for Qadaffi and for these regimes to move, and if we plant the seeds now, we'll get them in 10 or 15 years but we cannot wait and say, 'No, no interference and we will not listen to that.' I would like to know who will take that action.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ghayth Armanazi here.
GHAYTH ARAMANZI
It's a good question. I would like to put it to you, my friend, that it wasn't the attack on Iraq or the invasion of Iraq that brought awareness of democratic needs and the reform needs in the Arab world. There have been people struggling in the Arab world for decades if not longer to get reforms and to start on the path to democratic change. A lot of these forces, of course, were suppressed by governments who were supported by Americans and the West at the time. Now, I believe, and I put it to you, that a lot of what is going on today, a lot of stirrings, if you like, of this democratic spirit is not due either to Iraq or to George W. Bush. A lot of it is due, and we were talking about that at the conference this morning, a lot of it is due to the information revolution that has taken place in our world, in the Arab world in particular, with the satellite broadcasting, with the news coming home to people, with governments no longer being able to control the news agenda as they used to do. People are aware now of their condition, people are aware of the interplay of power and politics, much more so today than ever before, and that is, I believe, one of the principal causes, not the rhetoric coming from Washington, for the changes that you are seeing in Arab society.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you give him a chance to reply, Ghayth Armanazi.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
... by the Americans themselves because they don't like some of this freedom of information in the way it's being broadcast.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But my friend, nobody likes war, we agree on that. Everybody would like to have their freedom but they couldn't get it. Who would initiate such a thing? You think that people wait for another 30 or 40 years till we have second and third and fourth generation who can stand up? I don't think so. The regimes are afraid and they had to start certain reforms, but those reforms will bite them eventually.
AZZAM TAMIMI
My friend, this agreement is not about the yearning and longing of peoples in this part of the world for democracy. We all want to see democracy and I assure you that from my London position I can see the world very clearly and I was part of the democratisation process in Jordan when it started and Salameh probably remembers. I was the director of the Islamic Movement's parliamentary office there when in 1989, the Islamic Movement participated in the democratic process. Now, what we are debating here is whether the United States of America is actually doing it because it wants to see democratisation of this part of the world, but I ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Actually what we're debating is whether they're doing it.
AZZAM TAMIMI
What I say is they don't do it for this reason. They do it because of the oil, they do it because of Israel. See, the invasion of both Afghanistan and Iraq were on the neo-conservatives' agenda long before George W. Bush came to power, long before, and they proposed this area to Bush Senior, and Bush Senior didn't accept it. They proposed it to the Clinton administration, the Clinton administration didn't take it from them. I do recommend to you strongly a wonderful 3-hour documentary produced for the BBC called The Power of Nightmares, that tells the story of the neo-conservatives, because we've been out ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, just briefly.
AZZAM TAMIMI
... to conclude by saying that America is doing it for the wrong reasons and we shouldn't be helping it. We should help ourselves, the people should rise, the people should change their conditions and not wait for George W. Bush to destroy their country and their society in order to give them democracy.
SALAMEH NEMATT
I have to agree that America's not doing it because, you know, America's not doing it because it loves to see freedom for the people. America's doing it because its national interest dictates that. They intervene to basically push for democracy because there's a threat coming from that part of the world, threat of extremism, so I agree with you on that. Now, as the receiver in the Arab world, if my aspirations for freedom somehow meet with those of George W. Bush, he wants to end terrorism, I want to have freedom, do I oppose freedom because George Bush adopted the programme.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Of course I do oppose him because you are not right in your analysis.
FOUAD AJAMI
The results are more important, the results are more important.
AZZAM TAMIMI
I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why. I want freedom but what he wants is the oil and strengthening Israel.
SALAMEH NEMATT
Why?
AZZAM TAMIMI
No, I wouldn't allow it. Our real problem here in this region is Israel, Israel is our main problem.
SALAMEH NEMATT
But now you don't have oil and you don't have your freedom. I am willing to take freedom and give oil.
AZZAM TAMIMI
He doesn't give you freedom, he takes the oil, strengthen Israel and you'll become a slave.
SALAMEH NEMATT
You don't have the oil now. It's the dictators who run the oil, not you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, I'm going to move on here at this point. There's a lady at the back who has a question.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'd like to ask, instead of going around in circles as to whose fault it is and why Iraq is devastated right now, this question is to Mr. Nematt or Mr. Tamimi. I would like you to give me one solution as to what we should have done instead of coming into Iraq and destroying it. I would like one solution, and I would like to ask you if we think, I am completely against this notion, but if we think that what Bush did was so wrong and that this intervention is so wrong, then how come we right now are arguing against what Bush did instead of working towards a solution for the Arab society to get us to a proper solution to free countries like Iraq from regimes like Saddam.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Azzam Tamimi.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Well, my dear sister, Saddam Hussein was strengthened by the regimes of this region, if you remember, when he fought against Khomeini in Iran. Saddam Hussein was strengthened by the United States of America.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That wasn't the question that she put to you.
AZZAM TAMIMI
She said what can we do, what could we have done. That's the question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes. You're not answering her question.
AZZAMA TAMIMI
I'm going to, I'm going to. The world's, the world's the late 90's, remarkable changes were taking place within Iraqi society. Iraqi society was becoming gradually stronger and the regime was becoming weaker, and I think these movements that are taking place in Lebanon, that are taking place in Egypt, that are taking place wherever people are asking for democracy, are genuine movements, genuine concerns. People should continue to work provided nobody comes from outside to protect, the regimes will eventually fall. The problem is that as the people start moving, protection comes from outside.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're saying Saddam Hussein's regime would have fallen by itself?
AZZAM TAMIMI
Would have fallen by itself.
TIM SEBASTIAN
When, what signs were there that it was in any kind of danger at all?
AZZAMA TAMIMI
Well, the Iraqi people were working on it. Why should the Americans come and, see, the Americans didn't come to help the Iraqi people continue the process. The Americans came for weapons of mass destruction, they came because they claimed Saddam Hussein had links with Al-Qaeda, that was proven to be totally wrong. They actually came because they wanted the oil and they wanted to strengthen Israel.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
There's nothing more patronising, nothing more opportunistic than to say that the Arab people cannot do it on their own. Somehow somebody has to come ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But they didn't do it on their own. Well, that's the point the questioner is making, they didn't do it on their own.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
There's a lot of reasons why they couldn't in the past and a lot of it has to do with interference.
AZZAM TAMIMI
It could have happened, it would have happened.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
But to tell the world that somehow the Arab countries or the Arab peoples are incapable of transforming themselves without us actually, the West or America, coming in devastating our country, coming in with their ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
... armies, that is an insult, an insult to Arab people and to Arab society.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, the question was also to put to Salameh Nematt.
SALAMEH NEMATT
Well, an insult but you know, you have a problem when they do actually go and vote, 8½ million Iraqis, you dismiss it as nonsense simply because it came via the American route, and you know, to answer your question, I think that, you know, Eastern Europe was transformed with the help of Western Europe. The Americans led a coalition that destroyed Nazism and helped finish Fascism in Europe. This was foreign intervention. I don't see the Europeans complaining about getting rid of the gas chambers in Europe. And you know, in Iraq the Saddam regime was killing every person who thinks even what is democracy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me, I want to come back to the questioner. Are you at all impressed by any of the answers that you've heard?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No. Sorry. If you want to make your argument substantial as to that this is not the right way to get democracy, I would like you to give me one solution of a way to get democracy in the Arab world, just one where you can get Arab democracy in the Arab world without killing. Can you give me one solution?
AZZAM TAMIMI
It has to come from the people. The people become aware of their rights, of their basic rights.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
What is one solution, give me one solution.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Let's concentrate on civil society, with all the efforts combined, educating people, enlightening them about their life, people to stand up for their rights. If people don't stand up and demand to be respected as human beings, as dignified creatures of God, then they deserve to be oppressed. We have to rise against oppression, we have to call for our rights. We have even to offer our lives for this.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, we're going to move on here. The gentleman in the third row, been waiting a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for Mr. Azzam. Since you oppose the motion of this house, what do you think caused the sudden democratic movement in the Middle East, the massive Iraqi vote, the demonstrations of freedom in Egypt, and the images that came out of Beirut. Were they three random events?
AZZAMA TAMIMI
Well, I don't call it sudden because it's been simmering there for generations. You know, Rifa'a al-Tahtawi was once called the father of Arab democracy, because almost 200 years ago he started talking about the necessity of democratisation in the Arab region. People, generation after generation have paid with their blood in order to improve things. This process of revival started way in the 18th century, and then we had colonialism, then we had the emergence of the modern territorial state with the despotic regimes, the struggle has to continue and this is part of the struggle. Now, to cut this from the past and to claim that this suddenly came out of the blue is an inaccurate reading of how things have been going on. Now today the people are more educated, the people are more aware of their rights, and we should thank Al-Jazeera for much of this by the way, because for a change we have an Arabic satellite station that is free to tell people what people would like us to discuss and talk, and if we have similar channels from Saudi Arabia, from Egypt, from all, instead of the filth they pour on the Arab population, then you will see even a quicker change, a catalyst making the change much speedier.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Lady at the back.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to the two gentlemen supporting the motion. I'm just wondering if somebody goes up to one of the victims of 9/11 and goes, 'Hey, you know those people that just completely devastated your life and bombed your country, they're here to make your life better and they're here to improve the quality of your life and to impose democracy,' do you think that'll get across? It'll be like, 'OK, sure, go ahead, continue what you're doing. I completely agree with you,' because that just happened once in the United States of America, but it's happening 24/7 in Iraq and in Palestine and it's not just happening to a certain group of people, it's happening all over the country. Blood is being shed regardless of who or what or why, so I mean, if it's not going to get across to the American people, why are you assuming that it's going to get across to us, to the Middle East? Why are you assuming that this is the method? Why are you assuming that this is the solution? Why aren't you just, I mean, democracy is based on, 'Hey, this is what I think. If you agree, you agree. If you don't agree, I'm not going to beat it into you.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to take that?
SALAMEH NEMATT
Yeah, I would like to take that. I think, you know, many people here watch Al-Jazeera and only Al-Jazeera. The people killing the Iraqis in Iraq today are the terrorists who are trying to undermine the project led by the United States in Iraq. The murderers who are doing this are the terrorists. America is fighting these terrorists so that the democracy project can rise on its feet and so that the Americans can get out. They cannot wait to get out of Iraq. This is their exit strategy. They do not want to stay in that country. We keep getting it wrong, you know. You know, my colleague here, the legitimacy given in the Arab media, and we shouldn't forget, we're talking about the media run by dictatorships, autocratic governments, this is not independent media, make no mistake about this. These are the people who are giving legitimacy to the murders taking place.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let's come back on this.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But during the war in Iraq, there were certain times, well, not certain times, the majority of times, the media wasn't allowed into certain cities in Iraq to see what the American army was really doing there. They were just allowed in there after they devastated the entire place, after they did what they wanted to do and they're like, OK, after that, go ahead, and you tell me that terrorists are the ones who are killing the people, so you're telling me if someone comes in and starts killing your family, you're just going to let them without standing up and defending yourself? I just want to say one thing to Mr. President Bush.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Briefly. There's a verse in the holy Qur'an that says (in Arabic). I'm just telling Mr. Bush why are your actions not supporting your words, this is not democracy. (in Arabic) That's all I'm saying to Mr. Bush.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, thank you for your comment. Gentleman in the front row. Can we get a microphone to him.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you. If George Bush is for Arab democracy, this question is addressed to those for the motion. When will he recognise Hizbollah as a legitimate political party since it already has several M.P.'s in the Lebanese parliament?Thank you.
FOUAD AJAMI
Actually President Bush already answered your question but in a very persuasive and very reasoned way. What he ended up saying is the following. When the Hizbollah demonstration was held, the President was asked about it. He said, 'Fine, they can participate in a peaceful demonstration, in a peaceful political process,' and I think there has been a subtle shift in the American policy on this. There has been subtle shift. There has been acceptance of the French position, not quite full endorsement of the French position, but an acceptance of it, that when Hizbollah lays down its arms, when Hizbollah if you will is no longer an armed militia, because you can't have a sovereign government and an armed militia operating on the territory of the sovereign government. Ever since the state was invented, the state was about order, a monopoly on violence, so when Hizbollah lays down its arms, participates in the political process, becomes a philanthropic and political association, the door is open, but if Hizbollah insists on carrying weapons in Lebanon, its problem will not be, by the way, principally with the Americans, its problems will be with the Lebanese who will insist that there is no room in that country, in a country that seeks to heal itself, for a power structure independent of the power of the army and independent of the power of the sovereign government, so it's already been answered.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, we have time for one more question please, back to the motion before we vote on it, 'This House believes that George W. Bush has kicked open the door to democracy in the Middle East ' to this side of the house please, the final question. Gentleman in the third row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to Dr. Azzam Tamimi. You said that if people want democracy, like there are people, if they want democracy, they'll get it, so I want you to tell me what happened to the people of Halabjah, if you heard about the massacre, and what happened to Al-Ikhwan Al-Muslimūn in Halab in Syria and what happened to the people of Hama that also wanted to have a revolution. Their whole city was bombarded. So if you're telling me that people who want revolution will get it, tell me what happened to those people. Thank you.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Well, nobody sympathises with a dictator that mass kills any community of his citizens, whether it was in Halabjah or in Hama or anywhere. What I'm suggesting to you is that democracy is a process. Malik ibn Nabi calls it an educational enterprise. It has to be nurtured within us. We have to teach this to our children from young age. It has to go through our society, our mentality, it has to become a culture. Democracy is not something that comes packaged from outside, and therefore if we want to struggle for democracy, if we want to struggle for change, let's look inwards just as Allah Subhanuhu wa Ta'ala says in our Qur'an (in Arabic). Allah will not change the condition of a people until they look inwards and change what is wrong with themselves. What is wrong with us is that we don't seem to care when others are victims of oppression. We have all to start caring, coming together, working together and then a tyrant cannot afford to be a tyrant.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very briefly, are you convinced by that? We're running out of time. Please just let the questioner come back on that.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Just to point something out. One member of my family was killed in one of the massacres that I mentioned and my whole family was a part of that revolution, but we wanted to change but the change never came, so I think the big percentage of people in those countries, they want revolution and in the end you get a 99% for the voting that our deterrent should continue.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Armed revolution does not bring democracy by the way. It brings chaos and anarchy and killing. What we need to do is strengthen our civil society so as to empower the individual. The problem with despotic regimes is that the state is so powerful that the individual has no protection. That individual can be protected by strengthening civil society.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But there wasn't an armed revolution. There was just a formation of a party that was against the government.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Where are you talking about, which country?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Syria.
AZZAM TAMIMI
Well, there it was an armed revolution, my friend, it was, it was an armed strike.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just come back to the questioner for a moment and ask him, what do you think is the road to democracy in the Middle East? George Bush's version or not? Excuse me, can he just answer that question?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Well, I think, I think that George Bush did not discover the democracy. Democracy is not found yet in the Arab world. It is there, it lies within people and it is not, it cannot be brought by killing people and forcing, you can say it was an armed revolution in Iraq, an army, a whole army came to kick out Saddam Hussein, that was an armed revolution.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Final comment, Ghayth Armanazi, very briefly.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
Yes, can I say, what is the difference between Halabjah and Fallujah? Does that make Saddam Hussein the same as George W. Bush, are they the same? What's the difference between the two?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The difference is that they were both against democracy.
GHAYTH ARMANAZI
So you agree about Bush, President Bush and his approach to the war in Iraq is similar to the way Saddam Hussein behaved?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I'm against this motion, but I'm saying, if we can't find, if we're saying that George Bush did not give those countries the democracy and we are against that, then what should be the solution that we should find?

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, ladies and gentlemen, we've come to the point in the proceedings where we're going to vote on the motion that 'This House believes that George W. Bush has kicked open the door to democracy in the Middle East.'  Would you take your voting machines, please.  Would you press one if you agree with the motion, and two if you are against it, and you only have to do this once and would you please do it now. 
We now have the vote coming up on the screen.  27% for and 73% against.  The motion has been resoundingly rejected.  My heartfelt thanks to our panellists, those who won and those who lost, and of course to you, the audience.  We'll be back in a month's time.  Thank you very much for being here tonight and a safe journey home.  Thank you very much.