This House believes that Gulf Arabs value profit over people
Monday November 17 2008
MOTION PASSED
by 75% to 25%
Transcript
Order of speeches
- Introduction
- Najeeb Al-Nauimi
- Sheikh Mohamed Ahmed Jassim Althani
- Mansoor Al-Jamri
- Tarik Yousef
- Audience questions
- Vote result
Introduction
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates coming to you from the Gulf State of Qatar and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. The global financial crisis may be hitting hardest in Europe and America, but here in the Gulf States, profits have been slashed, jobs endangered, and major projects put on hold. In other words, there'll be a visible human cost and plenty of questions about how the Arab states in this region will handle it. After all, some say that while building their shining new countries on the revenues of oil and gas, they cared little about the welfare of their workers. Others claim that with huge investment in education and health, they've given everyone a life-style beyond their wildest dreams. Well, what's the truth and what will the states do now for their people? Our motion tonight is intended to get to the heart of the matter: ‘This House believes that Gulf Arabs value profit over people', and our panellists as ever have strong and divergent views on the subject. Speaking for the motion, Najeeb al-Nauimi, who served as Qatar's Justice Minister in the ‘90s, and was lead counsel for Saddam Hussein. He's worked on numerous human rights cases and has represented detainees at Guantanamo Bay. With him, Mansoor al-Jamri, co-founder of the Bahraini Alwasat newspaper, and its editor-in-chief since 2002. Before launching the paper, he lived in the UK where he was editor of the Islam 21 newsletter, which examined the concepts of Islam and democracy. Against the motion: Sheikh Mohamed bin Ahmed Althani, former Qatari Minister of Economy and Commerce, who played a central role in the development of the country's energy sector, and with him Tarik Yousef, Dean of the Dubai School of Government. He's been active in some of the key international bodies so much in the news at the moment: the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. So now let me call first on Najeeb al-Nauimi, please, to speak for the motion.
Najeeb Al-Nauimi
Speaking for the motionNAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Thank you very much. This House actually supports that the Arab states - it's called Gulf Arabs but it's actually the Gulf States - value profit over citizenship. The profits are actually the aim of the states of the Gulf, and their aim is particularly actually based on how they make more profit rather than looking into citizenship affairs. I base my argument actually on a number of ideas. The first one is poverty. It would be a bit strange to understand that we have poverty in the State of Qatar, we have poverty in the Gulf, and if I would say, you know, how can I select this one with evidence, I would say King Abdullah (of Saudi Arabia) was once in front of you, of the people, said, after he had visited a poverty area, or what we call some suburbs, he said, after he really saw the poverty there, he said: "I will call upon the businessmen, I'll call upon charity, to support these poor people on their standard of living and to have them [inaudible]." He did not say that we as a state, we will support them, he referred them to the private sector. It is very clear that he did not care much about really using the sources of the state, which is about 10 million barrels per day. Another thing was that our radio in Qatar stated once, one of the people who called, he said that: "I am staying with my three families, me and two of my brothers, in one house." It's very strange to have three families staying in three bedrooms with their wives and with their kids, because he could not find, or he was not actually given the land to construct. He was poor. A number of people now, if you go to the Eid charity, will find out that there is an increase in families in need, Qataris and non-Qataris, looking for support to help them out of this poverty. Poverty comes in the definition that we are not talking about Somalia, we're talking about Qatar and the Gulf. If Somalia is dying, we know they don't have money, but for people in the Gulf, to have problems and not to have suitable services, that is a big problem. There are tricky things which the states use in the Gulf. For example, salaries are always based on allowances. You'll see one salary where we will have something like 40 percent allowances. When he retires, he loses 40 percent, 50 percent. Another point actually, there are in the Gulf, in the Emirates, many people who have problems, not to have really a proper standard. In Kuwait, you know, the status of people who cannot have citizenship, there is the inflation, in fact versus the wages and the same of the Gulf citizens which is not really tackled by the state. You have to understand labour actually among the human beings who are serving in the Gulf, labour has been very much been killed in a way where you have a lot of strikes and demonstration. We can elaborate on it later on. Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Dr. Najeeb al-Nauimi, thank you very much indeed. You're talking about Gulf Arabs valuing profit over people in a year when the UAE for instance has announced that it's going to spend $10 billion on education. You're sitting in Education City, here in Qatar, where hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent per student, in some of the most sophisticated campuses in the region, and you're saying that people aren't valued here?
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What could be better value? What could be better evidence of valuing people?
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
I am sorry. The people who have to come to this education, they have to pay money. They're not coming here for free, if this is going to be free, what we call it, students to be enrolled in this educational system that's good...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And if they're sent abroad, they receive stipends and their education bills are paid abroad.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Education, you see, the services in Qatar are supposed to be free education, free hospitals, free services of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you don't pay taxes. You have it pretty good here. Do you want everything in life free? You should come back to London with me if you think this is bad.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
No, no, no, I wish we can pay tax but I need against that tax a democracy, I can elect who I want to elect, I can ask who has to be really the Prime Minister, I will pay the tax and that's normal.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you can't say that money is not being invested in people. It's being invested in education, it's being invested in Qatar's future, that's undeniable.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Investment in education is different. You have private sectors and you have the public sector. The public sector has been absolutely relinquished and been thrown out, and the services in the normal schools in Qatar is really a lower standard. Go, you will find a crowded pupils sitting about, 45, 50 students in one room.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your state pensions are higher than in the West, you don't pay taxes, you don't pay for water or electricity as citizens, and you can fill up your petrol tanks for $10. You don't know how lucky you are, do you?
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
No, you wouldn't imagine, you wouldn't imagine that the salary or pension or social security in Qatar is 2,900 riyals. Would you imagine an elderly man with his divorced daughter receiving 2,900 riyals per month? He spends half of it for the driver, for serving the driver who cannot get somebody to help them, they are desperate. We have poverty, we have to recognise we have poverty in the Gulf.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We'll come back to this. Dr. Najeeb al-Nauimi, thank you very much indeed. Now please, can I ask Sheikh Mohamed bin Ahmed Althani to speak against the motion please.
Sheikh Mohamed Ahmed Jassim Althani
Speaking against the motionMOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
We are definitely against the motion. Tim, I will go above the discussions that I have heard so far. The Gulf States in the last five years only have spent $361 billion on health, education and infrastructure. If we look at the health improvements in the life of the people of the Gulf, you measure it through the life expectancy at birth and the mortality rate. Life expectancy has improved from 55 years 20 years ago, 25 years ago, to almost from 55 years to 75 years, 76 years. The mortality rate has come down from 98 to almost 14. This is an equivalent to the most advanced I would say countries. On the education side, we have almost all I would say children in primary school today in the Gulf. If we look at the initiatives and what has happened in this area, look at us today: from 1998, I would say the revolution that this country has led and its leadership, especially where we are sitting today. I mean, everybody here should look around and see how much money has been invested, not only money but ideas and how to bring the best quality of education and health-care and social services to the people of this country. We in the Gulf have what we call the 'good neighbour effect' and the good neighbour effect is that this has spread to Dubai, to the UAE, I would say from Oman today to Kuwait, we see a vision to 2025, you see Qatar's vision to 2030, where we have a vision. The first three pillars of it are the social, the economic, the social and the human capital are the key issues here. I want to say one thing also. This Education City here in Qatar has brought something that we have never seen in the Arab world. It has brought really diversity on the education side and democracy to the education. The education here, I bet anybody that governments of any country, state, would influence. We don't have any influence on the freedom of what really the young generation here can have. What I would say is, the leadership has really walked the talk. I need to continue, I still have three more points.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, we're running out of time. I think you've made some very good points so far.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I would say that you have a positive environment going. Let's not spoil it. We should really make use of it. Can I add to my three points?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Brief, very briefly please because we're running out of time.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
We have a growing population in the Gulf, almost the highest in the world. We have 3.5 percent growth. We need to create 280,000 jobs a year. We have to have economic growth and there is nothing wrong with a liberal economy that will give them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sheikh Mohamed, thank you very much indeed. Your good neighbour effect conspicuously seems to have left out the treatment of migrant workers who haven't benefited from this. It's nothing short of an international scandal, isn't it, the way they've been treated in this region? You'd admit that, wouldn't you?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I don't admit it at all. I disagree with it. I think...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So Human Rights Watch are wrong, the State Department is wrong, all the reports into this are absolutely wrong?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I am not saying they are wrong. No, Tim. We have faulty I would say cases, but look at the commitment from the leadership down.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You have migrants, says Human Rights Watch, who face intimidation and violence at the hands of employers, supervisors, sponsors, police and security forces.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
These are I would say cases where employers, even Western employers in Dubai were bankrupted and left.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And diplomatic representatives who visited camps here and found the majority of unskilled labourers living in cramped, dirty, hazardous conditions without running water, electricity or adequate food.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
In Qatar you mean or in the region?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, yes.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I haven't heard that report. I would be happy to see it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's a State Department report, it was issued in March this year and you're saying they got it wrong?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Would you let me speak please? If you look at the laws, as we speak there is a conference which just finished in Qatar on labour protection. The laws have been really very strict, on their civil liberty or whatever, or on their, I would say human rights issues. We have three bodies at least in Qatar. We have the Labour Ministry, we have the Human Rights Committee, and we have another one, I really don't recall ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm glad you mentioned the labour conference, because do you know what the Head of Jordan's Labour Union said at this conference? He said: "I believe the main reason behind the rising number of Asians working in the Gulf region is the fact that violating the rights of this group is easier. We have to give them their rights first before thinking of replacing them with Arabs." Was he wrong too?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Can you allow me to, I'll tell you honestly. Those people, really they are the most unskilled labourers who come to the Gulf.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it's okay to mistreat them?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
No, no, no, no, let me finish please. They come here and they enjoy an opportunity to work under their governments' approval who look at each contract and approve it. They are, these contractors are registered and protected by the law of the land here. If you see demonstrations of labourers in front of the Human Rights Committee, the owners will be taken to the Public Prosecutor. The commitment is there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
What I would say, everybody's committed to rectify it, but there are abuses, there will always be abuses unfortunately, which I admit, I don't say there are not, but they are trying to solve it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sheikh Mohamed, thank you very much indeed. Now please let me ask Mansoor Al-Jamri to speak for the motion.
Mansoor Al-Jamri
Speaking for the motionMANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Well, I support this motion that Gulf states value profit more than people for a basic reason - that the Gulf governments' philosophy is based on the availability of funds that are generated from the oil wealth, that they use this fund in a way to - instead of trickling it down to the people - they use it either to silence the elite or to bypass their citizens and ignore their political rights, or to import people from the Indian sub-continent and abuse their rights, and therefore human beings are being used as a means to generate a profit. We witness from the fact that for the last, since 2000 up until now, we have had 5 percent in real terms growth, but the money has been pumped, 70 percent of the money that we have has been pumped into real estate, and real estate creates a fictitious image of prosperity, but we do not realise - I have seen myself, that these foreign workers live in conditions that cats and dogs will not accept. That these people are cheated and abused. Not only that, they are being used to suppress the political rights of the citizens. For example in Bahrain we have people who are ready to work, but they are asked to work within the same conditions as the Asian workers, and this is not possible, and as a result, the average salary in the private sector has decreased 15 percent over the years. We also witness that more than half of the population are waiting for residential units since 1992. At the same time we witness the construction of five luxury cities, all designated for the super rich as a second home or as a weekend home. I understand that investment cities will generate profit for the few, but half of the population will have to wait, will have to be crowded in one single house. We have four families, a father, a son and a grandson living in the same place, waiting since 1992. If it had been that the money would have been used for the benefit of the people, the infrastructure would have been prepared, the educational system which is under pressure now from the extra spending on so many, importing of lots of labour, would have been better and the health services are in dire circumstances. Quantitively we are okay. We have a higher health, better conditions, but if you look at it, the miserable situation that these people live in cannot be accepted. Human beings can never be used for profit. They are not a means, they are the end of any human endeavour.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mansoor Al-Jamri, thank you very much. If people are not being valued and they're as unhappy as you say, why are they so optimistic about the future? Why do 65 percent of Saudi youth, according to an American poll, 50 percent in the Emirates, feel that their country is on the right track? That's a considerably higher proportion than feel the same way in Western countries.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Yes, it depends as well, I mean, about ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
If people are undervalued, they don't feel optimistic about the future, do they?
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
No, the sampling and the questions that are being put to the people will be different and the answers will also be different. I believe if you ask the people, they think that the state will continue to be a provider for them, to quieten them. We have, if you ask Kuwaitis, Kuwaitis expect to be employed in government sectors.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But they are providing for them, look at the charities now set up to help people like Qatar Charity for instance, look at the new social services, look at the encouragement to students to get involved with charities. Look at things like the Supreme Council for Family Affairs, for the first time looking into domestic violence. People are being valued because their issues are being addressed.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
In return for relinquishing political rights, they are being given hand-outs, and the people are being silenced by hand-outs, and when all the oil prices come down ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the people are happy, according to the opinion polls they're happy.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
I'm not sure they are, I'm not sure they are. I don't think there is a human being ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
65 percent in Saudi Arabia thinking that their country is going the right way, 57 percent in the Emirates, that's pretty high. It's 34 percent in the West.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Well, let me put it this way. If you ask me, where are these true development projects that we're talking about. In the entire Gulf Co-operation Council countries, we have 12,000 factories. 4,500 are in Saudi Arabia. This is what is available in Singapore, which is smaller than the smallest in terms of area of the Gulf Co-operation Council. If you look at...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You seem to want everything.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
No, I don't want anything.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've got happy people, you've got people who are optimistic about the future, you've got people who are well-housed, you've got people who have access to education and health-care. As has been pointed out already, their standard of living has risen, their life expectancy has risen. What more do you want?
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Have you looked at the public services?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You live longer and you have more money, how good can it get?
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Have you looked at the public services? These are oil countries. Some of the public services are comparable to Africa. If the rain comes down, you will have the water coming to the houses. I'm surprised that the infrastructure and those projects that denote ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That happens in Britain, but maybe we get more rain than you do. Mansoor Al-Jamri, thank you very much indeed.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Now let me ask Tarik Yousef please to speak against the motion.
Tarik Yousef
Speaking against the motionTARIK YOUSEF
I think, Tim, as a matter of historical record and documented policy, the motion is inaccurate. If anything, I would claim, like many others including my colleague, Sheikh Mohamed, that the Gulf states, and since we're talking about states, let's focus on them, have demonstrated for a very long time a long-standing commitment to spending generously on their citizens at the expense of profit-making. How else can you justify the free housing, free health-care, free education, guaranteed employment in the public sector, allowances for marriage, even subsidies given to the private sector. I think the biggest surprise for many of us, especially from outside the Gulf Arabs, is the emergence of the Gulf in the last 10 to 15 years. The advances in social indicators, the rapid economic modernisation, especially relative to when these states became independent and started building themselves, and certainly compared to the rest of the Arab world. This much about the Gulf Arab States I think is undeniable and difficult to argue with. People vote with their feet. In a recent poll around the world, of the destinations that people wanted to seek for relocation, for opportunity, some of the Arab states in the Gulf topped the ten cities that were mentioned on that list, including Doha and Dubai. I think to view it differently, the Gulf Arabs, and rightly so, care about both people and profits. I would want them to do so. I like and have been impressed by how the state and the private sector work together, co-operate, co-ordinate, I am impressed by the nature of public/private partnerships. I'm impressed by how this model has now found itself to the rest of the Arab world and is now being emulated: a harmonious, co-operative relationship between segments of society, to further the interests of everyone, and other Arabs and other neighbourhood countries are benefiting from this, whether it's workers, remittances, foreign direct investment. It is difficult to argue with, or it's difficult to state the proposition that these Gulf States only care about the bottom line. Don't get me wrong, there are concerns, there are reservations, you've pointed them out. Sheikh Mohamed has admitted to them, but to state that profits or the profit motive is over-riding is simply wrong. If anything, these countries, these societies, have been founded on the notion that governments provide and states get their legitimacy on the basis of government provision, so states have to make profit to invest it back, to redistribute it back, and governments as such do redistribute and do honour at least a big portion of these commitments.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Tarik Yousef, thank you very much indeed. You said you were impressed by the spending, you said that the states spend generously on their citizens. Are you impressed by their spending on conventional weapons, for instance, the ten billion or so that the UAE spent between 1998 and 2003, most of which is sitting out in the desert, gathering dust?
TARIK YOUSEF
And probably for the wrong reasons, although you can not...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're impressed by that?
TARIK YOUSEF
I'm not impressed by that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
While there's still poverty in the UAE, while there's hardship.
TARIK YOUSEF
Nor would I justify that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But explain the logic to me then. If you care about people, why will you spend all this money on conventional weapons?
TARIK YOUSEF
I think you can do both and you should do both when the motives arise. The Gulf States are extremely vulnerable. It doesn't take one looking back far in history to realise that only 15, 20 years ago, one neighbouring country did invade another neighbouring Gulf country, and within a matter of hours ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're not suggesting that there's a reason for these purchases other than to make money through the deal.
TARIK YOUSEF
I think there are reasons that have to do with making money, but there are legitimate security concerns that we cannot ignore.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you have concerns about this kind of expenditure.
TARIK YOUSEF
Absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You'd rather see the money spent on people.
TARIK YOUSEF
I'd like to see it spent on people, at minimum I'd like it to be more transparent, I'd like more accountability, but the end result is not going to be zero expenditures on military hardware, because there are serious legitimate security concerns that smaller Gulf states face, in a neighbourhood where neighbours are arming up, another neighbour is building nuclear capabilities. Only two decades ago, one neighbour invaded another Gulf country. Until these security concerns are resolved, Gulf countries will spend, maybe they will overspend, and there will be wasteful spending as a result of this, but Tim, to suggest that this alone can wipe out the other side of the ledger ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's an example, it's an example. It's flagrant wastage, isn't it?
TARIK YOUSEF
Absolutely, and some of this by the way ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Which side do you want to be on on this issue? Do you want to change and sit over that side?
TARIK YOUSEF
The origin of some of these bad deals and the abuses that took place actually came from the UK and the US.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oh, we're to blame again, all right.
TARIK YOUSEF
Well, you're partly to blame, you should take responsibility.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Tarik Yousef, thank you very much indeed, thank you. I'm going to throw it open now to questions from the floor. Just a reminder of the motion: ‘This House believes that Gulf Arabs value profit over people.' Gentleman in the blue shirt, on the fifth row, you sir. If you could tell us where you're from.
Audience questions
AUDIENCE (M)
Egypt. Sheikh Mohamed, how are workers in the Gulf countries getting their rights, when 45 workers live in one room, when 65 people have to run to a bus to get back home, when the workers work for 11 hours a day for 7 days a week, when workers are not allowed to go to malls, when they're not allowed to go to public places because they're meant for families - how is this valued by the people?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Yes, I got the point. I'm not denying there aren't any of these abuses, but they are individual abuses that companies or employers exercise on their, unfortunately, on these poor workers. Remember these workers also get abuses back home. Before they arrive to this land, they have to pay commissions to, - you name it. They unfortunately get these abuses and I can assure you, and assure everybody in this country or in the Gulf, that they are very serious about correcting these problems. There are inspections that go now to these camps. I am not going to sit here and defend contractors who abuse these workers unfortunately and their supervisors are also from their same countries.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the state has a role as well in this, don't they? The state is responsible.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I can say the state is not keeping a blind eye on this, it's taking really extremely and all kinds of enforcements to stop it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just go back to the questioner for a moment and ask him, I think he has another point to make.
AUDIENCE (M)
Sheikh Mohamed, you said that there is strong and strict regulations. How could you explain after a building burning where six workers died, a week later the construction started. How is this valuing the workers?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, please let him answer.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Can I answer? These accidents will always happen, but they don't rise to the question of are we valuing, you know, profit, the state or the people is profiting from this. Let's look at the bigger picture, Tim. We don't want to get ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, I'm sure we're going to be looking at lots of pictures. Najeeb Al-Nauimi, you wanted to say something.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Can I say one point please.
TIM SEBASTIAN
One please, yes.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I have one point. I have read recently that Bahrain has increased its budget by I don't know how much, 40 percent, to make this waiting list zero for their waiting list for their houses.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Najeeb Al-Nauimi, yes.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
But I have read it somewhere recently that there is a zero waiting list for homes in Bahrain.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Let me explain actually to you that the states actually value profits over people. Labourers here in the Gulf have been through so much suffering. Let me tell you that 120,000 went in Dubai one time, walking on the street - don't you think these people actually have been, their money has been devaluated, which actually the money they had received around 460 dirham or 600 to live for about 12 hours working and at the end of the day they had to go on the street, they have made a petition to the contractor, to the state: "With the money we have, it's not sufficient." They did not listen. They had to go. One of the senior people actually on the developers' side told me: "We had to solve it within two weeks because we acknowledged ...", after they walked out on the street, they acknowledged that their money is worth not much. They had to increase it by 25 per cent. In Qatar, just a few days ago, about 200 Nepalese have been kept for six months without salary in a miserable life - and they have to be deported. In Sharjah they have done the same. In Kuwait, the Bangladeshi issue, they went through so much frustration...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to answer that, Tarik Yousef? Let's just let him answer those points.
TARIK YOUSEF
At least since I'm familiar a bit with what's happening in Dubai, in Sharjah. What happened as a result of these riots, of this unrest, as far as the policy community, the government is concerned?
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
They increased their salary 25 percent.
TARIK YOUSEF
Now only the salaries. The Ministry of Labour went back, is in the process of hiring something like 600 inspectors. They centralised the payment system so that companies now will be caught if there are any delays, and they can monitor, and they have started slapping hefty fines on some of the violators. I think what Sheikh Mohamed was earlier trying to point to was precisely the point here. There are laws, there are challenges to these laws. The problems arise in the enforcement of these laws.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We've got a lot of questions out there.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
You have got to the point - enforcement of the states are not sufficient to cope with the problems here in the Gulf.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take another question. Lady in the front row, please.
AUDIENCE (F)
First of all good evening and I am really grateful for all of you that you gave this opportunity for us ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are you from, please?
AUDIENCE (F)
I am from Pakistan. So my question is: what would you say about this, that my father, he worked here for 40 year, I was born here and I have a sense of belonging to this country, Qatar. My brother is working for the army. My father is paying his rents. I am getting paid for my education, I am paying for it, and it's not free, for hospitals and everything...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what is your question?
AUDIENCE (F)
My question is: I didn't get the education free, so what would you say about this?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You expect to have everything free, do you?
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You do? That's quite an expectation.
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes, because I am born here. I have a sense of belonging to this country, so my question is that what would you say about this, that you said education is free. It's not free.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tarik Yousef, have you raised expectations too high?
TARIK YOUSEF
I think I have, and by the way, I did not condone the free provision of education. I think people ought to pay for some of these education costs as well as for many of the other welfare expenditures, otherwise governments get into trouble and nobody has anything in the final analysis, but I think the questioner here is pointing maybe to a set of other concerns, having to do with differences between the national and the expatriate community, legitimate differences, although we all, as expats, including myself in Dubai, do benefit from highly subsidised services that are given to all of us. I would be more in favour of making all of these services on a cost basis, so that the nationals and the expats share in helping to subsidise.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Mansoor Al-Jamri, is the questioner asking for too much, what do you think?
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
No, I think in a way that she was, anybody who is born somewhere, in the country, and they have sincerely been in one certain environment - they belong. The idea that we will bring people from outside, we will use their services for our benefit to keep down and compete with locals so that we don't need locals, so that locals will not, when they ask for their political rights - is not working, and the evidence is in front of us. This is a generation that were born here and they are demanding their rights. The international agreements now that are promoted by the United Nations provide civil rights for migrant workers.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's a right to get everything free, is it?
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
No, it's not a right, it is equality before the law. If you have a law... I don't mind paying provided I get rights for that. I pay tax in exchange for rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right. I'm going to move this on to a questioner in the front row. You, sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is for Dr. Nauimi. Well actually I'm a Qatari citizen, I worked, I went through the whole education system in Qatar and also it was free, I went and studied abroad and it was free, came back, worked. I got, you know, not minimum wage, I got, you know, pretty decent salaries, and the question is: are we, I mean, education is basically free, even in Qatar Foundation or Education City it is free, as you mentioned, it is free for Qataris. It is paid by the government. Yes, it is.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
You must be working at the Foreign Office.
AUDIENCE (M)
No.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Your father works in the Foreign Office.
AUDIENCE (M)
No, my father worked with the government.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
There is sponsorship. Yes, go ahead.
AUDIENCE (M)
Exactly. The other thing is that we are really focusing on labour. I mean, why are you guys looking at the glass half-empty. The citizens in Qatar, if we're focusing on the citizens of Qatar, they are getting land for free, they are getting loans for free, I mean, basically loans that they're paying over 30 or 40 years, these are the things that we need to focus on, these are the things that are actually happening, and what you're talking about is cases.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let's have a former Justice Minister answer your question.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Okay. First of all you have to understand, you are lucky, okay, one of the people who've been lucky.
AUDIENCE (M)
Most of Qataris are lucky.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
No they're not. You don't know the situation. Let me tell you something. You spoke about you've been educated, you've been educated in a private school or in a public school?
AUDIENCE (M)
Public government schools.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Public government schools?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes. Before the independent schools started.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Before the independent schools, then you are too old.
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, I am too old.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Okay, sorry.
AUDIENCE (M)
I graduated from high school in 1997.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Let me tell you something. I have written so much about the education in Qatar. I had columns in the newspaper, I was promoting that independent schools have to take a role to improve the educational system but not to be paid really because ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you answer his point, that he's done pretty well out of a system which clearly values its people, according to him.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
He knows that he had to wait for about ten years to get the land and the land is not for free.
AUDIENCE (M)
No, no, no, no. It's not two years. I graduated in 2004 ...
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
And you got the land the next day?
AUDIENCE (M)
... and worked in 2005, not next day, two years. It wasn't that long.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
I told you from the beginning, you are lucky.
AUDIENCE (M)
No, no, no, I'm not lucky, I'm a normal citizen.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're not going to get very far on this. Just very briefly.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Do you know, the land's now relinquished, at your time you had one thousand square metres.
AUDIENCE (M)
I still have one thousand two hundred.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Now your guys are being given six hundred metres. Relinquished, relinquished.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. Excuse me, instead of talking over each other and me, we're going to take a comment from Sheikh Mohamed.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I'm very proud to have a Qatari who will stand and say this before us.
TIM SEBASTIAN;
I thought you'd say that.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Myself and Dr. Nauimi went to free education, he got a PhD, I didn't have the privilege of PhD on the government. What I'd like to say, Tim, can I, we have to look at the bigger picture. The Gulf has very limited people. Bahrain today has almost 50 percent foreign workers. I don't think Dr. Jamri will accept to neutralise them and make them citizens. I am sure he will not accept that because they have limited population. What I want to say, let's look at the Gulf in the bigger picture. The Gulf today is economically a success story. Nobody can deny it. Today we need to look at ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It didn't look so good in the stock exchanges the last few days, did it?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Let me just... we have three things that the Gulf is focusing on really: to have a quality educated human capital, we are doing that; to have a robust and good private sector, we are doing that; and to have really an export economy. Today we are ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Mansoor Al-Jamri, do you want to come in on that. You've had your three points. Let the other side respond to that.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
This will make us creators of jobs. That's what we need. We don't want government jobs.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, Sheikh Mohamed.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I don't want government job, I want private sector job.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
First of all, I think as I say, the principle used by governments is wrong. They use the surplus amount of money to silence a small class or elitist class, to bypass their rights. We do not have political rights and therefore we accept giveaways and we accept, the state provides for some of the people, not all the people. If they can bypass all the people, because it is not a broadly based policy. You mentioned that some people are benefiting. Let me give you an example of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly please, briefly.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Okay, let me give you an example of how people are waiting, and you mentioned Bahrain, people are waiting since 1992 for a residential permit. You go to the new areas, there are no parking spaces, do you know why? Because it brings more profit to fill up every plot of land by developers, and do you know who the developers are? They are well into the decision-making circles, so what I'm trying to say, you have a fictitious image of a prosperity by high-rise buildings but humans don't matter...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take a question, excuse me, we're going to take a question in the second row, a lady there. Could you tell us where you're from?
AUDIENCE (F)
Hello, good evening. My name. I'm a Qatari citizen and my question is for Sheikh Mohamed. My question is, why doesn't the government set a profit for construction companies to help them with accommodation and like medical health checks for the labour workers here?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I'm not the Labour Minister to answer, but what I know ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You were Minister of Commerce.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Yes, I tried my best to make sure we raised the bar on these companies and I think we did. Now, it's policing them actually.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, isn't that also the job of government, to police the companies?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Yes, of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You police everybody else.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Of course we regulate, the government regulated this and they are stricter now than even three years ago. They really mean to solve this problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your question assumes that you don't believe that answer.
AUDIENCE (F)
Not really because my uncle actually owns a construction company.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can she just finish what she was saying?
AUDIENCE (F)
My question is, why doesn't the government set up like a budget for them, because construction companies, and we know now land costs a lot and health checks cost a lot of money, and these construction companies who have a lot of labour workers need that, need the support of their government to help that ...
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
No, no.
AUDIENCE (F)
... that's why they're putting these people in such small areas.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI The company should run on a profit and loss, so the government cannot support a company to take care of their labourers, that's their problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
But you think the government should have played a bigger role in this?
AUDIENCE (F)
Of course, the government should, of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN
In the treatment of migrant workers.
AUDIENCE (F)
Exactly.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
To regulate the abuses that the gentleman there talked about.
AUDIENCE (F)
The companies here are under a lot of pressure from the government. They check the accommodations with these workers, then they don't like it. Well, these companies, it costs so much money for them to just get a land and put a lot of people in it, so why doesn't the government just help them with that. If you want the workers to be treated well, why don't you just help the companies?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, you think the government should take more. We'll take a question from the gentleman in the second row please, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you, Mr. Sebastian. I'm from Kuwait. I would just like to say that in the past, most of the Gulf countries have mostly invested abroad and they've supported a lot of countries abroad, and we've ignored a lot of social aspects in our own countries in the GCC, and most recently we've developed and invested domestically. The link between the foreign labourers and the development of the GCC is that the infrastructure and the development that's been going on is linked to the foreign labourers, specially the unskilled workers who have been building the streets, building the buildings, and have created this development and the progress of the Gulf today in a way. But I believe that the link between the labourers and the government, especially with the recent laws that have been coming out, I think that a lot of the NGOs that have criticised the Gulf governments for not doing much, I believe that the unskilled labourers' own governments should take responsibility for the agencies that have sent them here and have not taken care of them properly.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you don't think it's the role of governments? Najeeb Al-Nauimi, come back on this.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Yes. You are from Kuwait?
AUDIENCE (M)
That's right.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
I think the best thing should be done by the Kuwaiti government is to nationalise the stateless there. You have a stateless number which is huge, it's a big breach of a human rights. People were born, for years and years, and they're not being given the chance to be a citizen. That's one thing. It's more important than really to just regulate it through a number of governments and through their embassy for the labourers. Labourers have been very harshly really hit on their heads. I can't disagree that the governments don't have laws or don't have regulations, or don't have enforcement power that they have to correct things and do things in a proper way. They have, but there are points where you find the labourers being very misled and labourers' departments always work on documents. I'll tell you a story. I received about four people with a burn on their faces ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let the questioner come back.
AUDIENCE (M)
I believe that recently the governments have done a lot, for example Sheikh Maktoum in Dubai has publicly listed the companies that have abused the workers and this is a step forward. If we were talking about the past, that would be a different issue, but we're talking about today and things have changed a lot today. In regards to your statement about the stateless in Kuwait, we agree that a lot of them do deserve the citizenship but it's a complicated issue, it's a stalled issue. We hope the best for them but we are talking about prosperity today in the Gulf.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. All right, thank you. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the red shirt, please.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening ladies and gentlemen. My name is Mohamed from Yemen, and my question is for the panel ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... who are for the motion.
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes. Everyone knows this well-known fact that this region is very attractive for foreign employment and investors. Are you claiming that the people that come here such as investors, educators, researchers, workers, economists and politicians, they come here to be unvalued?
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
I think we cannot always claim that because we give a few dollars more to these cheap unskilled labourers, then we have done them a favour. I believe what you have, there are excuses being used that we have a construction boom. It's the same excuse we used in the mid-70s when we had an oil boom, we used the surplus, we imported, we allowed lots of people to come. We denied them their rights as well and we depressed the living standard for the locals. The locals have been used to being on the margin, in return for some handouts. They are not sharing in the decision-making process, they don't share equally the wealth, and there is a very wrong procedure going on, or process, which will end up in changing the face of the Gulf. In the future, by the way, let me say, in the future the Gulf countries, their decisions on what goes on inside their countries will not be in the hands of their governments. It will be in the hands of international bodies as well as important governments that are rising in power.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you. We're going to take a question from the gentleman in the yellow shirt up there please. You, sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hello. I'm from Palestine, and this is a question directed to Dr. Najeeb. Do you not think that with the simple implementation and enhancement of welfare offices and trade unions, that workers would not remain stranded and unpaid, as you said?
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
I think I believe they should have their own unions. I believe they should have their own organisation, and I believe that they have to find a way to get themselves in a better position, because in this case it's very difficult. Let me add something: the gentleman spoke about people who coming who are not real labourers. By the way, these guys are still at risk. The Gulf States have a discretionary power, the ministers, to deport anyone they want at any time they want without giving a reason. We have about 700 - 800 now laying down in the cages waiting for deportation. If there will be some kind of union, some kind of organisation, we think these guys can challenge at least the government's decision and the government discussions to deport people out - not only labourers - even very eminent doctors and teachers, and a number of people have been put on the plane. They asked me: "What did we do wrong? We tried to communicate with the Minister of Interior." They said: "We don't need to give a reason."
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
"This guy is out." So, we need an organisation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to ask Sheikh Mohamed why there are no rights to form trade unions here, why not?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
The Justice Minister is here ...the former one..
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but he's advocating the trade unions, why does Qatar and other states, why don't they.. I'd like to address that issue.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
We're going into labour discussions where we live in a region which needs these workers. Even Bahrain today, the population is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And what about trade unions, why not?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Trade unions, I think this region is not ready for them because ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What does that mean, it's not ready for them?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Let me finish. The problem here, we have the oil industry and we have made these big, our hydrocarbon is the main thing. We cannot afford to have unions at this stage, especially in that industry. There is, I don't think, there is no right yet to reach that level but they are coming to something like this. I think Kuwait is pioneering this and I think they have something that has started close to the trade unions, I'm not sure.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
There are trade unions, even if I may say. We have also trade unions in Bahrain and there are trade unions in Kuwait but they are deprived of the powers of collective bargaining as well as all the rights that are mentioned in the International Labour Organisation. The problem here is that we've been always told: "This is not the right time for your rights." I have lived my life and I've lived long, I mean, anyway, I've always heard this statement mentioned in our newspapers, in our media, by our officials. "It is not the time, it's not the right time for participation of the people. We will give you free education, just shut up. We will give you free health services and just don't talk about anything, don't criticise," and this is not right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mansoor.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
I happen to come from a country outside of the Gulf and I am almost certain that in most countries outside of the Gulf, in the last ten years, we have seen reversals in every sphere of civil liberties and political participation, notwithstanding the rhetoric. Media, freedom of the media, freedom to gather, freedom to form parties, freedom to hold officials accountable, in every single country outside the Gulf we've seen this. You happen to come from one of the Gulf countries where there is in fact a vibrant experiment going on, with parliamentary participation, with elections, with empowerment of women, with the inclusion of opposition parties in government. How fast do you want the train to go? How fast do you want to push
TIM SEBASTIAN
You asked him a question, please let him answer the question.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
First of all, I don't want this to be country-specific, so that we do not divert the attention, but we can take examples. The failures of Arab republican regimes do not justify our failures and delays in the political in catching up with the world class environment in politics and in economy. When we go to Norway or other places, they might be digging something between mountains that will never, ever bring them profit, but it will link up one side of the country to the other. The Channel Tunnel does not provide profit maybe but it has to be there ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, please.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Assuming there is no society, that we can run our country like an enterprise, like a private enterprise - is coming to an end, whether it is a Republican regime ...
TARIK YOUSEF
Mansoor, I don't think we disagree, I don't think we disagree.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Fine, fine.
TARIK YOUSEF
What I am trying to suggest, Mansoor, I don't disagree.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
If we don't disagree, we should consider that there exists people, citizens or foreign people.
TARIK YOUSEF
Mansoor, what I'm trying to say is, we believe both in the principle of good governance. We want our countries and societies to be properly governed.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
And we can do it.
TARIK YOUSEF
We can do it.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
We don't have to wait.
TARIK YOUSEF
Mansoor, I'm not saying we should wait, I'm not saying we should not do it. In fact we should do it. All I'm asking you to do is to recognise, Mansoor ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you please stop talking across each other?
TARIK YOUSEF
Mansoor, all I ask you to do is to admit that there is a trend of greater empowerment taking place in the Gulf countries relative to their past and relative to others in the Arab world, and if we start questioning this experiment at its inception and start derailing it, start pushing it in all directions, we might end up as nothing in the end.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, briefly, Sheikh Mohamed, briefly.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I think there is no shortage of good ideas. The problem with Arabs experimenting with what Dr. Mansoor wants is really going first to correct the political situation and then go economic. I believe personally, I'm not talking for any country... I believe that economic success for this region will bring economic success, good education will bring the right people to lead this region. That's why it failed in Hamas, it failed in Algeria. We don't believe in the way he is talking about and I think we should let the economic success take its place, then we're going to ... it's going to be automatic.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, I'm going to take another question. Lady towards the back.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hello, I'm from Canada. The gross domestic products of the Arab nations have been increasing, and the labour costs in the world have been declining and this has all been caused by globalisation, therefore do you believe that globalisation has caused the Arabs valuing profits over people today?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tarik Yousef.
TARIK YOUSEF
I think globalisation has served us well, in many ways. Globalisation has made us test ourselves, it's allowed us to compete with others, it has allowed us to prove that in fact we can have a stake in the global economy and compete with others at home and abroad. There are issues with globalisation that need to be dealt with, and that's the role of government. Our governments have to step up.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. All right. Gentleman there.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening. I'm from Lebanon. When I read the motion, I think of the saying that all generalisations are wrong, including the one I just said. Now, having said that, I'm from Lebanon, I come from a foreign country, I've never lived in Qatar, though I had a sponsorship from Carnegie Mellon University last year, and for that I'm very grateful for QSTP and for the Qatari government. Having said that, I would like to ask the people who are against the motion, how would they think about the, I don't want to be harsh in words, however, what about the sponsorship of the people who work in certain companies and cannot move to other companies without the consent of their sponsors.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The sponsorship laws that prevent moving freely from one company to another.
AUDIENCE (M)
There's a very big question mark about that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Sheikh Mohamed, do you want to take that?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I think we have a famous statement by our Prime Minister in Qatar who said, you know: "We are going to solve this. We are looking at it and we are going to ease this problem." I think all the GCC countries or the Gulf countries are looking ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When is it going to be solved?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
Well, they are, I can assure you there is a commitment to look at this sponsorship issue. I think it will be sooner than later.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.
Let me take a question from the gentleman in the third row please.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening, I'm from Egypt. My question is for the opposition team, whether Dr. Tarik or Sheikh Mohamed. Are you aware that if we go right now to the industrial area here in Qatar, you'll find labour worker camps that are in such bad shape that they make refugee camps in Palestine look like seven-star beach resorts? They are in such poor shape that it's not even fair to call them houses, they're more like piles of stones with no roofs, made of carton. It doesn't match any international standard for health, safety, security or anything.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Have you seen these yourself?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, I've been there, I go there every year and help with charity work. These people, they live sometimes 12 people in a room four metres by five metres. Would you call that valuing people over profit? They take salaries less than 1,500 riyals a month and sometimes even less than that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Which of you would like to take this question?
TARIK YOUSEF
I have a question for you, why do they come here?
AUDIENCE (M)
Well, I mean, you claim that just because their countries treat them poorly, so that if here in the Gulf we treat them just a little bit less poorly, that makes it okay?
TARIK YOUSEF
They come primarily for economic opportunities.
AUDIENCE (M)
Of course they do, of course they do.
TARIK YOUSEF
These people are guest workers, contractual workers are not here to secure citizenship. They plan to come, spend a few years ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think the questioner was talking about citizenship.
TARIK YOUSEF
...accumulate some funds, accumulate some funds. They usually agree on the contractual arrangements in their home countries, and I can assure you, I have lived in India and I have seen the conditions of unskilled workers there. I do not condone nor support anything you may have observed, but I can assure you, this is not something that some official government has condoned, okayed, given the green light to and is not planning to do anything about it. You guys have had plenty of time, I think it's time to shift a little bit towards our side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've had time too, you've had time too.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
All right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to make sure you both have time.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
On the basis that these are actually poor guys and labourers coming from abroad to Qatar because they are desperate to do so - maybe yes, but why, why, this is my question, and it's a case I have seen it in front of me: why you have to bring out 400 people, you contracted with them to work in Qatar for a project and this project was not won on a tender, and you have to keep this guy six months without salary, and after you had to tell them: "You want to leave, you can leave." So these guys have spent money, sold houses, took a debt on themselves, they borrowed money to come for that, it has happened here, in Qatar.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, we've heard some examples. Let me go to a lady in the third row there, who's next to you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening. I'm Qatari and this country has done so much for me that I really don't, I don't think they've done it to shut me up. I think they've done it because they care about me and my question is for those for the motion. I've been given a claim that our state prefers profit over their people, and the only argument I'm getting is because of the labour workers. Do you have any other arguments? I do agree that it's a fault, but there is a fault in every country, but do you have any arguments to give me the claim that ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's hear from Mansoor Al-Jamri and then come to you.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Yes, I can give you lots of examples which are country-specific but I would like to generalise first and then come second to this. First of all there are about 35 million people in the Gulf Co-operation Council. About 40 percent of them are foreigners, which represent about 80 percent of our work force. Sooner or later you will find this society is totally different from what you imagine, because we will become a minority, even if we are privileged or not, so the new, the model that is being used, the market forces model that is used in the United States, Reagan's time, and Thatcher in the UK, where there is trickle-down effect, there is no trickle down effect here. It goes and it stays in pockets here and there, and if you come to ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's the same in every society.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
No, no, it's not. I mean there is social protection. If you go to European countries and others, there's more than 20 percent of government finances which is going into social networks to protect people equally. Over here what you have, you have a distorted society of haves and have-nots, and what we are creating, not only a class society inside one country, but the entire Gulf Co-operation Council is nothing but...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think she wants to come back at you.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
... there is no integrated economy, there is competition on this cheap labour.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mansoor Al-Jamri, let her come back to you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Okay, but I've been given a claim that I myself prefer profit over people, you're talking about everything that that shows in the public. In my university for instance we have programmes where we educate the workers, we teach them English and that's something that we ...
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
But the general trend is not what you are. I'm not saying that there does not exist bright spots here and there. This is a bright spot but this is not the Gulf, this is only part of the Gulf which is a small percentage, even if you take it in large amounts ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But give her some other specifics, she's asking for specifics.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
I think seventy percent of our money in the Gulf goes into the buildings and real estates for developers. It doesn't come to you basically to the wider public in terms of infrastructure, in terms of everything that we aspire in the next fifty years for our children...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let her come back, she wants to come back.
AUDIENCE (F)
I would just like to do something other than the labour argument. I think it's a fault.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's ask Najeeb Al-Nauimi.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Wait, wait. I will tell you things which are not related to the labour. Fine, we know the situation is really different with labour. Let me give you an example of a citizenship here who received 2,900 per month, do you know that?
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Riyal.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Do you know - riyal - do you know they get about less than $800, an old man who had worked for the government for years and years, an old woman.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's more than they get on the state pension in Britain.
AUDIENCE (F)
Okay, but did they have ...
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
Another point. Do you know, do you know that elderly people who've been given one room, one bathroom, they don't own it and the day they died they have to leave the house for the government?
AUDIENCE (F)
Okay, you're talking about the jobs, okay, you are talking about citizens who are not having jobs. But you know, look at the bright side, look at the students. I'm in one of the top universities and I don't pay for anything. All I have to do is get average grades, not even good grades. All I have to do is get average grades and I'm getting education for free in one of the top universities.
NAJEEB AL-NAUIMI
There are some women who've been divorced because they were married to foreigners and their kids were brought up here in Doha and they cannot get what you have, because the father's actually a Bahraini or somebody, a different nationality, they've been deprived from their natural rights as people who've been born in Qatar.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, Sheikh Mohamed.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
But I think we are misleading this good discussion to go to the labour and looking at ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we've looked at labour.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I think why don't we look at the brighter picture. I mean, if we are talking about the money and the profit, I mean, I felt in this motion which I have to say something about the investment that the Gulf States make. I wanted to make one for my Kuwaiti friend here. The Gulf has been also successful in its investments outside. I mean, let's not look at the situation now, but Kuwait was financed by its investments when it was occupied by Iraq, you know. Let's look at the Gulf as a unique example really of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But there have a lot of unsuccessful investments, haven't there?
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I don't want this crowd to be misled by the bad treatment that the labourers get. Let's not forget that these workers remit from the Gulf $100 billion every year. I want also to make another point. Look at the US for example. We are almost a capitalist model in this region. There is no region in the world that does not care for profit. If you don't make profit, you don't employ your people. We cannot look at the people before the profit, they go together.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
One more thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
In the US there are three million Mexicans or I don't know, from South America, who are in this case of, you know, being citizens or not being citizens, three million of them. Nobody has talked about it in the way that some students went to look at camps which fortunately they can report them to the Labour Department, I assure you. The police will be there the next day.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, good, okay, we'll take a question from the lady towards the back, up there, if we can get a microphone to you please.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi, I'm from Algeria. I just wanted to ask you if someone works in Qatar Petroleum and they pay him 21 or 22,000. How should he like pay the rent or like for his kids or for his food or his health things and stuff, and you said that the governments will give us the, what we need, like you're getting to it, right, but ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What point are you making, that the salary is insufficient?
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes, but when is that going to happen, like people are getting nothing.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
21,000 is not nothing! He's very lucky.
AUDIENCE (F)
Well, college, it's 50 and above, right.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
I think this is a different subject.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, we'll take a question from the gentleman in the fourth row there please, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Eritrea? The development and it's, the progress is very loud, but there is something that is not deniable. The labourers who, the Asians, I heard him saying that they are enjoying the opportunities, they are unskilled labourers. How come, unskilled labourers - why you brought them and how come he says they are enjoying the opportunities. I think they deserve that, so how come, it seems to me that there is a contradiction in Sheikh Mohamed.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
What I am saying... the countries that I have seen where this labour comes from, they make sure that the Gulf States allow them in. They really want their workforce to move to the Gulf to make a living for their own families back home. They know these are unskilled workers, they have agreements between the countries that protect these labourers; the embassies in this land look at these contracts, test them and approve them. The Ministry of Labour insists on clear contracts. Now, if you have seen wrong in these camps, please go and report them to the Labour Department and see what happens. That is what I am saying. These people I think make good living for back home. Now the situation maybe change, the currency has changed, the dollar was falling ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right. I'm going to take a question from the lady in the third row there please.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm from Egypt. I just wanted to ask the people who are in opposition, you don't want the discussion to be about the labour, while the labourers are considered people, by the way, they are considered people. The question is, why is the Gulf so proud of the towers and the construction development when you can't provide the people who build them, with their basic right of living a good and a respectable life.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we've really looked at that issue. We'll take a question from somebody which is not about the labour issue. Say one thing briefly and then we'll move on. We have looked at them in some detail.
TARIK YOUSEF
Can I make my point now? Other than what we all seem to agree on, which the governments need to do a much better job of enforcing the laws and protecting workers. What are you suggesting by way of a solution - not bring workers here? Tell the millions of unskilled workers in Asia that we're no longer interested in bringing them because we don't have the capacity to enforce the laws. Is this a solution?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question which is not about the labour issue.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you have a question which is not about the labour issue?
AUDIENCE (M)
Hi, I'm an Indian citizen. My question is for Dr. Mansoor. You're talking about profit and the overall development and betterment of the people of the Gulf States, but they're in complete disregard of a very important aspect of the economy and profit-making - that's cost of living, and cost of living in the Gulf States is sky-rocketing at the moment, even though we have foreign investments and stuff like that. There's a dire situation when it comes to housing or real estate, food supplies and costs are increasing exponentially.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, question please.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
Okay, are you supporting me? You are supporting me.
AUDIENCE (M)
I want to know what you think about this situation.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
I think you're asking the wrong people. I think you want to ask him. Tarik Yousef.
TARIK YOUSEF
He does not want more development to be built so that the cost of living will keep on rising in fact.
MANSOOR AL-JAMRI
No, what I think is, I can comment on it, really the economic model. I'm not talking about the politics now which is wrong. It's the economic model is wrong as well. It is based on two factors for growth: oil prices and cheap labour - and take some of this oil income and silence portions of your citizens. I think this is wrong. It is unsustainable because oil is volatile, it goes up and down. We are starting to suffer now. They're telling us that we are immune from the global financial crisis. We're not immune. It's coming to us. It's already started to come to us. The other thing is that the cheap labour will not be cheap for long, because the Indian economy is growing and they're going to be more experienced. They represent now a working-class, a middle-class, an upper class. We as citizens of the Gulf represent a marginal class. We have been marginalized by the political process.
MOHAMED AHMED ALTHANI
But Tim, the market, if the labour costs go up, they will pay high prices. The Gulf today cannot have workers, where do you get these unskilled workers to build the buildings we are in today? The only way, this is the market, it's a labour market, labour market prides itself on supply and demand.
Vote result
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we've come to the point in the proceedings, we are going to vote on the motion that ‘This House believes that Gulf Arabs value profit over people.' Now, let me just explain a bit about the voting machines. If you want to vote for the motion, that is the side represented by Najeeb Al-Nauimi and Mansoor Al-Jamri, you will press button one. If you want to vote against the motion, the side represented by Sheikh Mohamed bin Ahmed Althani and Tarik Yousef, you press button two, and would you please press your appropriate button now. You only need to do it once and your signal will be sent directly to the computers and we should have a result for you in just over 20 seconds' time. All right, the votes should be there now. So, we have 75 percent for the motion, 25 percent against, the motion has been resoundingly carried. All it remains for me to do is to thank our distinguished panel for appearing, thank you very much indeed. Thank you to you, the audience, for your questions. The Doha Debates will be back again in January. Till then, from all of us on the team, thank you for coming, have a safe journey home. Good night, thank you.
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