This House believes Dubai is a bad idea

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates coming to you from the Gulf state of Qatar and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation.  There are plenty of cities around the world with a cash problem, but Dubai seems to evoke a greater variety of conflicting emotions than most.  Pride in its flashy skyscrapers, disdain for its treatment of immigrant workers, respect for its massive container ports and communications, concern at its lack of transparency and press freedom.  But like it or not, Dubai stands out from the crowd, an icon to some, a nightmare to others.  So is it a magnificent dream that's stumbled into hard times, or is the underlying concept fatally flawed?  Tonight we debate the motion: ‘This House believes that Dubai is a bad idea' and you will decide the issue with your vote.  Our panel of course disagree fundamentally.  Speaking for the motion, Simon Jenkins, former editor of two London newspapers, The Times and The Evening Standard.  Five years ago he was awarded a knighthood for services to journalism and is now a commentator for The Guardian newspaper.  And with him, Sharla Musabih, an Emirati citizen who founded the City of Hope shelter for women and children in Dubai. Previously she campaigned against using children as camel jockeys, a practice which was banned in the Emirates in 2005.  She now lives in the US, working as a Human Rights activist.  Against the motion, Nasser bin Ghaith.  He's a lecturer in international economics at the Sorbonne in Abu Dhabi, and has advised the UAE government as well as the corporate sector.  He's now in demand for his knowledge of bankruptcy and insolvency laws.  And with him Mishal Kanoo, a prominent businessman in the Gulf and Deputy Chairman of his family's group of companies.  He finished school in Dubai and now teaches at the American University in Sharjah.  Ladies and gentlemen, our panel.  So now let me call first on Simon Jenkins please, to speak for the motion.

SIMON JENKINS
Thank you.  Can I say right at the beginning, ladies and gentlemen, nothing is more unattractive than a foreigner talking about your country or your region.  I sit here with great deference and respect that the people of Dubai and in the Gulf, that it is not good form to be impolite to your hosts, and I have no intention of being so.  This evening we're debating a very limited motion.  We're not debating Dubai or the people of Dubai, we're debating the idea which has motivated the recent development of Dubai.  Now, if there is one thing we know from the credit crunch, it's that breakneck, uncontrolled, unregulated capitalism ends in tears.  I'm a passionate and devoted capitalist.  I believe in the profit motive and I believe in property development, all these things that ought to go without saying.  What is abundantly clear is that if you don't regulate it, if you don't control it, if you don't maintain markets in a proper fashion, they will go out of control, and in going out of control cause huge wastes, huge dislocation, and huge human hardship.  When I first went to the Gulf in the 1990s, I first went to Dubai and studied it in some detail in 2006, it was abundantly clear that the idea of motivating this development was going to end in tears.  Plenty of people said so. There was no surprise about what happened recently.  It was clear that this was a property boom built not on resources or on manufacturing industry or even on traditional trading.  It was based on odd money and debt, and when you base something on odd money and debt, I repeat, it becomes a gold rush city, it becomes a bubble, it will burst and it has burst.  I don't think Dubai is going to disappear.  I think probably in the long-term it'll become a perfectly successful part of the UAE and I think it'll be much poorer than it is now.  I think it'll become a refugee centre with very large numbers of people who will become a part of the floating population in this part of the world and I'm sure it'll have a very lively tourist industry, much as Atlantic City or Las Vegas does in America.  But the ambition, the hyperbole, the hysteria that went on over the past four or five years, will seem like a bad dream. It just goes to show that if you allow property development to go at breakneck speed, it will end in tears, it's a mistake, it's a bad idea.  I beg to move the motion, thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Simon Jenkins, thank you very much indeed.  You said breakneck capitalism ends in tears.  Who says Dubai has ended?  You're talking about one of the most vibrant, successful commercial and tourist hubs in the world to date.  It hasn't ended, has it?
SIMON JENKINS
It hasn't ended, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's undergoing difficulty but then a lot of places in the world including London are undergoing difficulty at the moment.  London's more broke than Dubai, isn't it, these days?
SIMON JENKINS
I'm mercifully not speaking for my government.  I think many people would agree that had it been more cautious, had it been more controlled, had it been better planned, had not been quite so ambitious, indeed fantastic, it would have been a better bet.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've warmed to it slightly, because you seemed to be in a hurry to write Dubai's epitaph at one stage.  You said: "The towers of Dubai will become casualties, not of human greed but an architectural folly.  Sand will drift round their trunkless legs, animals will inhabit their basements."  Are you rewriting your apocalypse now scenario for Dubai?
SIMON JENKINS
Not one word of it, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're not taking any of it back?  So you think it's doomed?
SIMON JENKINS
I didn't say doomed.  I said it would be a different sort of place from what it is now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But it works, doesn't it, it works..  Look at it.  I mean, it is one the top ten container terminal ports in the world, it's top fifteen air cargo hubs, top ten busiest airport.  It works, it controls ports in 49 countries.  That's something to shout about, isn't it?
SIMON JENKINS
I don't think it controls them.  It has shares in them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Makes them work.
SIMON JENKINS
And they're looking very sick at the moment.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Are they?  It seems to work, it still seems pretty vibrant.
SIMON JENKINS  
If you export your debt to other countries, at this point Dubai becomes everybody's business, and it is unhelpful.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's unhelpful but look at all the companies that are going there, look at the number of British companies, 2½ thousand British companies, 125 companies in the airport free zone alone.  It's a magnet for trade, isn't it, it's vibrant?
SIMON JENKINS
None of them are cheering Dubai on at the moment.  They're wishing Dubai's debts had been underwritten more securely than they are now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But they're confident that it's going to come up again.
SIMON JENKINS
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you're not?
SIMON JENKINS
I'm not.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Simon Jenkins, thank you very much indeed.  And now could I please ask Nasser Al Ghaith to speak against the motion.

NASSER BIN GHAITH
Well, the main motion of this debate is: "Is Dubai a bad idea" and I would throw a question to myself and to my counter debaters.  What Dubai are we talking about?  From my point of view, there are two Dubais.  There's a pre-2003 model of Dubai and a post 2003 Dubai.  I would agree with Mr. Jenkins that the post-2003 model, which I called being in real estate adventure model, is failing.  That does not mean that Dubai is failing.  Dubai is a vibrant city... the pre-2003 model presented Dubai to the world, and Dubai has been there as a business centre in the region for the last 100 years.   It started in late 19^th century, and I don't think that this crisis will take all this from Dubai.  A model has failed; an attempt has failed, but not Dubai itself.  I don't think it will fail.  I think what happened, Dubai took a wrong turn on the right path. If they could do this, and I think they should be able to do this, just take a U-turn and come back and follow through the previous model, which was there.  I don't think that Dubai was treated fairly by the media and the Dubai model should be evaluated by specialists and by economists.  What the media did, they just went into, in both cases they initially cheered Dubai's model to be followed before the crisis and everyone, you know, cheered Dubai, the promised land, the city dream, and suddenly the very same media, only the outlets, just say that Dubai is now the doomed city, is the city of the fools as Mr. Jenkins once mentioned in one of his articles, I don't think that the media was fair to Dubai when initially cheered it as the model to be followed after 2003, and I don't think they are fair now when they just declare, prematurely to say the least, that Dubai is finished.  I don't think that Dubai is finished.  In Dubai, what is happening is capitalism at its best, not capitalism at its worst... what we are seeing is a correction.  Now, what is the strongest point in capitalism?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you come to a close.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
It is a self-correcting mechanism, that's the strongest point in capitalism and that's what is happening in Dubai, a self-correcting mechanism.  It came late but it came.
TIM SEBASTIAN  
All right.  Nasser Al Ghaith, nobody likes the media criticising them but it's a bit unfair to blame them for Dubai's troubles.  They're merely reporting what they see.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Yes, I'm not blaming them for Dubai's troubles.  They made the picture so nice, it wasn't that nice, I mean, I'm talking about post 2003.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you on the right side?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
No, no, I'm talking about Dubai is not failing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Isn't the reason that Dubai has failed and will go on failing, is because it misses one important commodity and that is a structure of good governance.  It doesn't have a structure of good governance.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
I don't think so.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The decisions rest with one man, not with the law, they rest with one man.  Every decision is referred up to him, and if he doesn't like the criticism, he tells everyone to shut up.  What sort of basis is that for a workable model of a workable society in future, being told to shut up because you criticises him?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
That's one point, but what I ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, please, address that point.  It may be one point but it's important.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
I'll address the point.  It's the very same man who made Dubai.  Dubai is a title for how to make everything from nothing in the Middle East.  Compare Dubai with its single man ruler compared to Iraq or Libya for example or Algeria who made nothing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But we find similarities in the climate of fear in getting people to even come to this debate and talk about it.  A lot of media outlets won't even come and cover this debate here tonight because they're afraid of offending Dubai.  Is fear a good bedrock for a society?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Why do you think that all the foreigners from around the world want to come to Dubai but they don't want to go to Libya or Iraq or Algeria, why do you think that is?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why do you think there's a bedrock of fear?  Why is that necessary?  How is that going to provide an impetus for Dubai to go into the future in a decent state?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
I don't think it's fear, maybe a lack of transparency, and that's one of the questions that's being learned now here.  Lack of transparency is different than intimidation and fear.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.  Nasser Al Ghaith, thank you very much indeed.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I now please ask Sharla Musabih to speak for the motion.

SHARLA MUSABIH  
Intimidation and fear, that's a good one.  I support the motion as an Emirati.  I'm an Emirati national and I've lived there for 26 years, but the past year-and-a-half I've actually been in America.  Why have I been in America?  Because of fear and intimidation, because of slander and smear campaigns against me because why?  Because of my work defending victims of human rights violations as well as human trafficking, domestic violence, something that they don't want me to talk about, so when I speak out loud about victims of human trafficking, and when I speak out loud about the lack of a system for protection of these people, what do I get?  I get accused of being a human trafficker in the media.  I have six Emirati children.  I'm speaking on behalf of the Emirates as a citizen.  I've lived there more than half of my life.  I have a lot of love for that place.  However, it's a betrayal, the non-transparency, the lies...you know, it's an atmosphere that you know, when I speak to the Emiratis about the old days and how beautiful it was, that's the Emirates I know, the Emirates of 25 years ago, the Emirates of ten years ago, the Emirates of  20, 15, even 15 years ago, when it was simple, when it was sweet, when the Emiratis still had their neighbourhoods.  The Emiratis come to me and they say:  "Please, you're speaking on behalf of the foreigners, can you be our voice?"  I said: "Why can't you be your own voice?"  Nahna bnseer wara Alshms ( we are going behind the sun, unseen) Ma ngder netklm (we can't speak) Wara alshms (Behind the sun) Okay, what does that mean, what does that mean?  Ana batla'a wara alshms. (I will go behind the sun, not to be seen) What does that mean?  Intimidation, fear, a lot of intimidation, a lot of fear.  They can't speak for themselves.  What does that mean?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you come to a close please?
SHARLA MUSABIH
So basically my question is, is the Emirates a better place, now with all this development, than it was before?  No.  It was so much nicer before, a nice, beautiful vision went wrong, completely wrong.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, Sharla Musabih, thank you very much indeed.  What do you want Dubai to do?  Close up and tell the rest of the world to go away?  That would be progress as far as you're concerned?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
I think that I would like to see Dubai get some experienced professional advice.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's given many Arabs across the region pride in the best and most vibrant international trading they've never had.
SHARLA MUSABIH
Pride in what, pride in what?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Pride in something that works.  Pride in being a player on the international stage.
SHARLA MUSABIH
Importing Eastern European women to be locked up in flats and used as prostitutes, sex slaves, pride at what?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Pride in a safe environmental, where people can grow up without being shot in the street, without being robbed left, right and centre.  Pride in things like that.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Police, police imported from Yemen and Sudan and Somalia, who don't have any experience in integrating with an international population, therefore when I have to come in contact with a police officer, they can barely understand what I say.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You want every detail correct in the master plan.  What is the bad idea about opening the Arab world to different nationalities, religions and customs?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
That's a wonderful idea.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, that's what Dubai does, doesn't it?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Actually, when you're going to stand up and say: "Come, come, come," then you're not going to say: what are the complications of coming to this country.  Gee, you have a common law marriage, oh, we're going to prosecute you for adultery, adultery, we're going to, you know...there is no integration.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dubai has listened to a lot of the criticism that's come its way, it's listened to the trafficking.  The US actually took it off its watch list a year ago.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
No.  It's on its watch list, right now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well in 2009 the report said it was off the watch list. I'll give you the piece of paper from the State Department.  Dozens of employers have had their licences revoked...they're cracking down on illegal ways of treating people.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
How is taking care of those human rights violations going to have any credibility when the founder of a women's shelter and the founder of the first initiative for human rights in the Emirates has been targeted with a smear campaign, and can't even go back to her own country because of that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Sharla Musabih, thank you very much indeed.  Could I ask now Mishal Kanoo, would you please speak against the motion.

MISHAL KANOO
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.  I want to say from the beginning, I feel a bit offended by the way the question has been posed, because I don't know how could you judge a city by a blip that has happened overnight.  Put that aside.  Let's talk about Dubai.  Dubai is the place where every Arab, if given an opportunity, will still look and say: "This is a place I want to be."  It's still the place that attracts the best and the brightest, to date.  When given an opportunity, when people think about it, consider that we have fantastic Arab cities, whether we're talking about Rabat, whether we're talking about Cairo, Beirut, whether you're talking about Riyadh or even Doha, Dubai still manages to attract a lot of people to itself.  Why is that the case?  This is a question that should be asked.  Because Dubai is a place where it allows the best and the brightest to grow, to prosper, to benefit. And I'm not talking only from within the Arab world, even from within the sub-continent, when you look at the number of companies that exist in Dubai, from the sub-continent, you'd be impressed.  One day you think of where am I going to come and set up in the Middle East as a regional hub, Dubai is a place that comes to their mind, the first place that comes to their minds.  If I look at international companies, international companies think in terms of regional position, where am I going to position myself?  Again, Dubai is the place that people think of.  There's a very simple reason for that.  It is the place where you have most likely the best communications, best transportation, although I must say that other cities are trying, and trying hard, and will pretty much catch up with Dubai, but for the present time Dubai has the best of those.  It has a very easy way of handling business, it has a very simple and smooth procedure, from a business point of view.  This is why Dubai is attractive, this is the model that Dubai has as a bedrock and this is why people look at Dubai.  It is a beacon of prosperity not only for companies but for individuals, Arabs and non-Arabs, international companies and non-international companies.  And the question that beckons and calls up right now is why, all of a sudden, Dubai is in the media, and please forgive me for this, but I was just checking on the website of The Guardian, but in a span of 17 days, from 25^th November to 11^th December, there were 74 negative articles on Dubai, that's about 4.35 articles a day.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you come to a close please?
MISHAL KANOO
The question is, is this justified or is it a witch-hunt?  I strongly hope that you will support our side of the argument and vote against this.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mishal Kanoo, you say that Dubai is the place where the best and brightest can grow.  What about those immigrant workers in the squalid labour conditions, which have been so much talked about by Human Rights organisations?  Are they allowed to grow?
MISHAL KANOO
Ask the companies that employ them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oh it's nothing to do with you, there's no regulation, there's no oversight, there's no inspection?
MISHAL KANOO
If I was to give an example, along the same lines, talk about the people of the FDA and the SEC.  When they couldn't hold and control the companies in the States, they can talk to me.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mr. Kanoo, last year Dubai ...
MISHAL KANOO
We try really hard to make sure that these things try to happen if possible, but remember, you're talking about a growth of five years of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
They simply don't do that.  Two years ago, which was two years after a major Human Rights Watch report entitled Building towers and cheating workers, you had Dubai's own public health authorities saying that 40 per cent of its accommodation facilities, that's nearly 500 facilities in Dubai, violated minimum health and safety standards, 500 facilities violated minimum health and safety standards.  Is that a good idea, does that make Dubai a good idea?
MISHAL KANOO
This is a question whether you're holding the city accountable or whether you hold companies accountable.  The company is accountable ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But governments are supposed to govern aren't they? Governments are supposed to look after people, if they care a jot for people, it would be a different place, wouldn't it?
MISHAL KANOO
The government sets the rules and regulations and tries to enforce them, but you cannot, no country on the face of the earth can enforce all the rules that they have.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All the rules?  500 facilities where you haven't got minimum health and safety standards, is that something to be proud of?
MISHAL KANOO
No, of course not .
TIM SEBASTIAN
So that makes Dubai a good idea, does it?
MISHAL KANOO
This is just one aspect ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you mean, one aspect?
MISHAL KANOO
This is an aspect that focuses on ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
...it's tens of thousands of workers.
MISHAL KANOO
...the companies.  It is not ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So the government has no responsibility whatsoever?
MISHAL KANOO
The government has a responsibility to set the rules and regulations and tries to enforce them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
'And enforce them,' not 'try and enforce them'.
MISHAL KANOO
No, you cannot.  I'm telling you, even in countries like the United States ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Governments are charged with enforcing laws.  I don't know where you live but that's normally the case in most countries.
MISHAL KANOO
Wherever you go, you will have a government that will try to enforce laws.  They will not succeed in enforcing it all the time.
TIM SEBASTIAN
500 facilities, that's not all the time.  Mishal Kanoo, thank you very much indeed.  Just a reminder to everybody, we are debating the motion that 'This House believes Dubai is a bad idea'.  I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the second row, in the purple shirt.  We'll get a microphone to you and if you could just tell us where you're from. 

AUDIENCE (M)
Hi, I'm an Iranian national but I've been born and raised in Dubai.  My question is for everyone. If Dubai is such a bad idea, then why are all the countries around it following Dubai?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Simon Jenkins, would you like to start?
SIMON JENKINS
Yes.  I think this comes back to some of the points made here by the opposition to the motion.  I think, I repeat what I said in the very beginning, I am not interested in politics for society in Dubai, it is not my business.  I'm an outsider, I'm coming along to say something about a particular ideology, which is the ideology by which Dubai was transformed from the state of grace that two speakers at least can recall, into something that has become I think a sort of a nightmare for the rest of the world, not for Dubai itself.  The phenomenal success by which you can attract money, particularly in the climate of the 1990s and 2000s is no surprise, and lots of places have attracted vast amounts of money.  Most of them reinvested it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
This place did something as well, didn't it?
SIMON JENKINS
Dubai decided to do something, it decided to build colossal buildings.  People who build colossal buildings into which there is no use as yet nor I believe will there be a use, they're going to fall on their face.
TIM SEBASTIAN
New York didn't?
SIMON JENKINS
New York didn't.  New York had a hinterland, the American empire, New York also had such a vast population lined up behind it, and Dubai was an idea, and the reason why this motion is expressed as it is, it was an idea for growth, it was an idea for growth not based on oil resources or gas resources.  It was an idea for growth based in some sense on the model of Singapore or Hong Kong.  I just simply think it went far, far too fast, and when you go much too fast, you fall much faster, and that's what happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mishal Kanoo, do you want to come in on this?
MISHAL KANOO
It still doesn't take away from what Dubai is.  I mean, I do agree there are some things that should not have happened the way it happened, but still, you're judging the city, the whole city is being judged at least by this panel and by the ladies and gentlemen sitting out there, whether this is a good idea or not.  I will ask you the very simple question, as an alternative, Dubai is a viable alternative to two things which are two diseases of as far as I'm concerned in the Arab world: nationalism and extremism, and if I don't have Dubai, I have a problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I want to go back to the questioner for a moment.
AUDIENCE (M)
My question was not answered, I asked why are other countries such as Doha, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, why are they all following Dubai 's model?
SIMON JENKINS
Because they're not, they're not.
AUDIENCE (M)
What do you mean, they're not? Look at all the buildings...
SIMON JENKINS
They're not trying to build the biggest building on earth.
AUDIENCE (M)  
Look at Emirate Airlines and Qatar Airways. Look at the train station that Dubai built and then one month later Qatar had a similar plan, just like Dubai.
SIMON JENKINS
Well, the lesson you get from Dubai, which is the same lesson as we get from the credit crunch, is regulate your market, don't go completely crazy.  Don't allow one man's vision to dominate the sanity of the marketplace.  Make sure the market works, it doesn't become completely mad.
AUDIENCE (M)
So you think the whole Gulf region is a bad idea?
SIMON JENKINS
Sorry?
AUDIENCE (M)
Are you saying the whole Gulf region is a bad idea?
SIMON JENKINS
No, I'm not, I'm not saying that. 
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Nasser Al Ghaith.
SIMON JENKINS Dubai is different.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Just talking about the visionary people, history has been made by visionary people.  History has been made by people who, their counterparts think they are fools, and 50 years later they've been celebrated.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They're not always.  Sometimes they remain fools.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Not always, not always, but to say that the Dubai idea is bad is to say that free market with visible hands is a bad idea, to say capitalism, with this celebrated self-correcting mechanism, is a bad idea.  It means that, it's saying that globalisation, market integration is a bad idea.  That's what it means, because Dubai has presented that... I'm not claiming that Dubai has presented that in the best picture, but it is the best possible picture, especially in the Middle East.  People now have hope in the Middle East instead of looking West or looking East to find hope, to find life, economic development and prosperity, they need to look within the Middle East and that's right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question from the lady in the front row, please.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm Indian.  It's to Mr. Simon Jenkins.  It has been announced today that Nakheel is going to pay its $4.1 billion sukuk obligations that was due today, in the next 14 days, in support of the $10 billion bale-out from Abu Dhabi.  Now, doesn't that seem like a stepping-stone to make everything right?  Dubai has this excellent retail banking system, it has an excellent transportation system, they have excellent education, excellent culture, and isn't your argument on very, very loose ground to say that the concept of the entire city is a bad idea?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to let Sharla Musabih have a go at that.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Yes, okay.  Let's just speak to that.  Let's speak to Dubai has an excellent education system, let's just ask, is Dubai better off now than it was in previous years?  Is Dubai actually respecting the rights of the national people? I moved there as a very young girl, I visited there in 1980 and I moved there in 1984.  As I lived there for so many years, I watched as, you know, these compounds popped up and the development went up everywhere, and in the ex-patriate neighbourhoods, there were all kinds of beautiful international schools with playgrounds and speed bumps so that their children wouldn't get killed.  However, in the national neighbourhoods, there were no speed bumps, in fact there was no street.  We had to live with sandy roads while we were building our houses for years and years.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to go back to that?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
And not only that, I would like to go back, but not only that...the government schools: shabby old schools, with cracked walls, unit air-conditioning that sometimes worked, sometimes didn't work, overcrowded classrooms.  The teachers, God bless their souls, would have to spend from their own pocket because they wanted to make the classrooms nice.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, let me hear from the questioner.  How do you like this call to the good old days?
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm sorry but when you're talking about the government schools, it's not like it's exclusive only to Dubai. I'm sorry no..'
SHARLA MUSABIH
That is their right; that is their right...
TIM SEBASTIAN (to Sharla Musabih)
No, excuse me, can you let the questioner just come back?
AUDIENCE (F)
It's not exclusive only to Dubai.  There are a lot of private schools also in Dubai, excellent schools, a lot of universities, I'm sorry but ...
SHARLA MUSABIH  
What comes first?  I'm a UAE national.  My children have a right to an education as UAE nationals.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm just saying that ...
SHARLA MUSABIH  
So, you're an expatriate, you get lots of money in your package.  I have six children, I'm supposed to pay out of my pocket, it doesn't come in my package, I'm a UAE national.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay.  Let her just come back.
AUDIENCE (F)
That doesn't answer my question.  I said, I talked about the bail-out that they got from Abu Dhabi today, and I said, doesn't that seem like a stepping stone to make everything right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes or No? Sharla Musabih, is it a step in the right direction, the bail-out from Abu Dhabi?
SHARLA MUSABIH
It's a step in the right direction.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  That was the question.
AUDIENCE (F)
Mr. Nasser, he said it, he said: "They were going the right way but they took the wrong turn."  So one model has failed, but that doesn't make the whole city a bad idea.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the third row there.
AUDIENCE (M)
Dr. Nasser, you spoke that the media wasn't fair to Dubai.  Mr. Mishal, you spoke that everybody would like to be in Dubai and it's a place to grow and to prosper, it's a beacon to prosper.  What about the 160,000 migrant workers in Dubai?  They are suffering every single day with less than $2 a day, to live and to try to live, to actually build Dubai.  What about those people?  If Dubai was a good idea and as you were saying that it's a place to grow, and a place, a beacon of prosperity, what about the people who are helping to construct this place?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let's let him answer the question.
MISHAL KANOO
You talked about 160,000.  What's the population of the UAE?  5 million, with a balance of 490-something million, 4.9 million, are benefiting out of Dubai.  I'm not saying, I'm not discounting that these people have an issue or have a problem, but this is a company issue.  The government's job is to put regulations and to try to enforce it, but at the end of the day it's a company issue.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Why is the government trying to silence it?
MISHAL KANOO
That is the issue the government has to take up, but coming back to the point, you're talking about 160,000 versus 4.9 or 4.8 million.
AUDIENCE (M)
It is not an excuse to say that the population of the Emirates is 5 million.
MISHAL KANOO
It's not an excuse. If I were to use a rule of mathematics, it's a standard of deviation. But I'm telling you, you're talking about 4.8 million people who are benefiting out of Dubai.
AUDIENCE (M)
160,000 people are suffering every single day to build Dubai, what about those people?
MISHAL KANOO
The issue is very simple.  They have an issue that they have to take up with their companies.  I can't come and legislate everything in your life. I cannot do that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Simon Jenkins, do you want to come in on this?
SIMON JENKINS
I think it comes back to the earlier question really.  I would love it to be the case that Dubai was growing organically, steadily, as a vibrant community in which there were no buildings wasted.  A quarter of the world's cranes work in Dubai.  So many people were being sucked in to live on what are clearly slave wages, and I would love it if this were, what I have to say, a normal, very, very prosperous trading city.  It has gone a little mad.  It's the idea that's gone a little mad.   There's no need for it.  This could have happened calmly, quietly in a regulated market, it's the idea that was bad.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nasser Al Ghaith.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
I mean, with the violation of labour rights, I've heard this a million times, now these labourers, they came based on their free will.  They were not slaves that were taken from West Africa to America.  Let me finish please, let me finish.  If they are living on $2 a day, they're coming from a place where they don't have food to put on the table of their children.  That's one thing.  I'm not defending the violation of your labour rights.  What happened in Dubai after 2003, couldn't have happened before 2003.  After 2003, everything went so quickly.  People lost control, the government lost control.  I can say that.  And it's improving, wait, it is improving, if you see it today, if you saw it five years ago, it's totally different.  It is improving.  You have to be fair with yourself, Sharla, it's improving.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let her say something, let her speak now.
SHARLA MUSABIH
Okay.  Those labourers and housemaids and exploited victims of abuse are in fact trafficked into Dubai.  Now, that is not Dubai's fault. 
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Everybody's trafficked into Dubai?
SHARLA MUSABIH
Yes. 
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Five million workers trafficked into Dubai?
SHARLA MUSABIH 
From my study, from my research, I researched this, the agents ...
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Do you have a maid in your house?  Were they trafficked into your house?
SHARLA MUSABIH
Listen, the agents, the agents go ...  My maids are treated like family members, they've been with us for 20 years.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Everybody says that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's asking for the basis of your survey.
SHARLA MUSABIH
For the past 10 years I have been doing... for the victims that I have taken care of in my shelter and the victims of labour exploitation that I have interviewed, and I have interviewed more than a few thousand of them, okay?
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
According to my study, the victims are trafficked into the Emirates by agents who put them into deep debt.  That is not the UAE's fault, and that I agree with you.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Put them into deep debt where?  Where?
SHARLA MUSABIH
However ...
NASSER BIN GHAITH
To put them in deep debt where?  Where?
SHARLA MUSABIH
By putting them into deep debt by enticing them to come to Dubai..
TIM SEBASTIAN (to Nasser bin Ghaith)
Just let her finish, please.  Thank you.  Very quickly because I've got a lot of people, very quickly.
SHARLA MUSABIH
Okay for example an agent will go to a rural areas and will show them a great opportunity in the Gulf, in the Middle East region.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Where is this taking place?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
This is taking place in Ethiopia and in India and in Sri Lanka.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.  I'm going to move on now.  I'm going to take a question from the lady in the second row.  If we can keep the answers relatively brief, I think that would be helpful because there are a lot of people out there that have questions.  Please go ahead.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening, I'm Iraqi.  My question will be to the proposition side of this debate, and it is, how can you link a city to an idea, whether it's good or bad?  Basically what we understand, or what I'm understanding out of your argument that you are against the administration, you're only looking for the negative side of the action that they took.  Why don't you look at the positive side which is basically Dubai was the reason why the Middle East and the GCC, the Gulf countries got introduced to whole different cultures.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let's get an answer.
AUDIENCE (F)
Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Simon Jenkins.
SIMON JENKINS
I mean, the answer is, Dubai took a very specific route.  It's been much written about by its enthusiasts, not its negative critics, and I've been reading about it for 20 years and you'll see ten times more articles for the hyperbole of Dubai, than you find against it more recently.  It was a very specific decision taken to redevelop Dubai in a particular way, and it effectively said: "Anything goes.  Just build, build, build, spend, spend, spend, borrow, borrow, borrow, do it."  Now we're all suffering from that on the banking front.   Dubai is suffering from it, it is suffering on the property front, that's all I'm saying, but it was the idea of Dubai, the idea to go for growth in this particular way.  Perhaps I just think it was mistaken.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  Very briefly, Nasser Al Ghaith.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
If borrowing is the sin that Dubai has committed, now what I would do is quote the bible: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm Syrian, and my question goes to the proposition.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We need to have some questions to this side as well, okay.  So the next question we have had better be to this side.
AUDIENCE (M)
Right.  I just wanted to mention, they talked a lot about Dubai in terms of finance and debt.  Dubai's debt as a total is $56 billion.  That doesn't even make it on the top 40 countries with debts, so to be honest, the way we can see it as citizens or as people or however we want to take it, is that the only difference between Dubai's financial problems and the other financial problems is press coverage.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we have a question please?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes.  My question is though, if we're going to talk about the social issues, what about all the other positive advantages that Dubai has offered, like Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid offered or funded the largest educational point for Arab citizens, and one of these ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, let's just take that part of the question. Sharla Musabih.
SHARLA MUSABIH
I think you know actually the whole sweetness and the whole vision from the founding fathers of Dubai ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What about the educational fund, not the sweetness and vision, what about the educational fund?  You've had a specific question.
SHARLA MUSABIH
However, I think that the leadership has great vision and I think that they have done some wonderful things.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it is a good idea then?
SHARLA MUSABIH
And I don't think that the leadership part is necessarily the people that are mismanaging Dubai.  I think that the leadership is not being told half of it.  I think that there's a whole layer of cronyism between ourselves as citizens. Why is there this level of fear to speak out?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, we're moving into another area.  I'm going to take some questions for this side of the house, so gentleman up there.  You sir, do you have a question for this side of the house?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, hi.  I'm from the UK.  I've a question for this side.  I'd like to know that it's all very flowery and rosy to say that the way it's growing and all the economics of it, but ignoring all the socio-economic issues that we are currently discussing.   Now I've heard from your opening statements that you would like to, or you seem to be separating the government from all the other developments going on and ignoring all the Human Rights issues.  Don't you think it's about time that the government brings out some solid foundations or some laws to actually implement some of the foundations of the law that can be implemented to actually regulate all these issues?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mishal Kanoo.
MISHAL KANOO
Although I'm not a lawyer, I'm going to talk from a business point of view, and I could be wrong, but as far as to my knowledge, there are laws that are written and put there.  The question is, when you have a boom, how do you implement all the laws and make them work?  This sometimes cannot happen, but that doesn't mean that if there are abuses of these abuses should not be held accountable, and the people who do these abuses should not be held accountable.  I think that these things have to happen, but again, the question is, when you're in a speed train and it's going 100 miles an hour, what do you do?  Do you stop everything and say: "Stop now so I can fix everything?"  This is the question that I'm sure the government must have been thinking of.
TIM SEBASTIAN
In your speed train, is it okay to run people over who just happen to be crossing the track at the same time?
MISHAL KANOO
Well, the question is, why is the person running in front of the track?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ah, okay.  So it's their fault? 
SHARLA MUSABIH
Propaganda, propaganda.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's a rough world, Mishal Kanoo. 
SHARLA MUSABIH
Their solution is propaganda.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
Would you like to come back on that?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, I'd like to say why are you running a speed train or whatever it is, if you can't actually handle it ...
SHARLA MUSABIH
Yes if you're not experienced, you're not able to drive it.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
Let me tell you this.  When it comes to having the regulation, not applying the regulation ...  That's not the case any more.  Let me tell you this.  Today, just today, this very day, the President's brother is put on trial for that event.  He is on trial, he is on public trial.
TIM SEBASTIAN
For which event?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
For the abuse and torture of the Afghani worker.  Let me finish. 
SHARLA MUSABIH
You believe that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please let him finish.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
You can see this on Al Jazeera, on every media, he is the brother of the President, and this is for the Middle Eastern audience, have you heard this before?
AUDIENCE (M)
Well, it's all good to actually, for the media and advertising but we haven't heard anything about the 160,000 labourers.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
He will be certain to be put on public trial.  Check Al Jazeera, he will be put on public trial, and he is the brother of the President, he is supposed to be untouchable. It's an improvement, Sharla, don't close your eyes on improvement.
AUDIENCE (M)
With due respect, do you have any example for 160,000 labourers, of any one of them to be given justice.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
They have proof that one has been mistreated badly.  You know, working conditions, well, listen, working conditions I do agree with that.  Maybe delays in their wages, I do agree with that.  Now we talk about labour price regulation.   There is 11 million in your back yard, Sharla, 11 million illegal aliens (in the USA).  Did you check on one of them?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Yes, I ...
NASSER BIN GHAITH Tell me what's happening there?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Before we move this into other territory, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman at the back.  We are talking about 'This House believes that Dubai is a bad idea.'
AUDIENCE (M)
Well, I want to start from that because it seems to me the word 'bad idea' is referred to what?  If it's referred to an economical structure, it seems to me that we can really acknowledge the fact that any economic structure would be kind of subjected to ups and downs.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we have a question please?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes.  I think if we relate this to the concept of the city and how we create cities that will sort of support the sense of community, then we have a lot of question marks regarding the sustainability of Dubai.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we have your question please?  You haven't got a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
Well, this is exactly the question.  How to differentiate between Dubai as a model for economic development, vs. Dubai as a city that would create a sense of community and a structure that we ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
I think that's a semantic area, slightly outside what we're discussing.  Lady over there, you have a question.  We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE (F)
My question is for the speaker ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are you from, please?
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm from India, and my question is for the speakers against the motion.  So as you said Dubai is undergoing massive growth and I agree, but don't you think that this massive development that encourages workers, thousands and thousands of workers from several nationalities, don't you think that would dilute your local Emirati culture in the long run?  Aren't you worried about losing your culture?
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mishal Kanoo.
MISHAL KANOO 
Of course again you have to take into consideration many different aspects when you're talking about growth.  There is the economic side of it, there's a political side of it, there's the financial side of it, there is the social side of it, and the point you're talking about is a social side of it.  Now, if I look at the majority of the people coming, where are they coming from?  I would say from the Indian sub-continent and I think I'll be fair in doing that.  I look at the culture of the Indian sub-continent, it's really not that far away from our culture.  There might be some nuances and some differences, but let's face it, there is such a strong bond between the Arab world and the Indian sub-culture.  I wouldn't really worry too much about that.  Now, some people will be more than happy to make it into a big issue, but let's face it, if I was to look at it more than just a superficial level, really delve deeper, looking at our history from the region to the Indian sub-continent, there's no worries.  I wouldn't be worried at all.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm not only talking about the Indian sub-continent though.
MISHAL KANOO
Well, they are the majority of the, if we want, the guest workers, in the country.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Where is the voice of the nationals here?  They lost their neighbourhoods, they've lost their language, they've lost their culture, they've lost our identity.  We had beautiful neighbourhoods before.  My mother-in-law can't even go outside because she's so intimidated.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Mishal Kanoo, answer that point about the neighbourhoods.
MISHAL KANOO  
Well, neighbourhoods, everything evolves, yes or no.  Do you agree?  Everything evolves.  Excuse me, in the United States, neighbourhoods in United States in New York, in the turn of the last century, are not the same as at the turn of this century.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Simon Jenkins, you want to come in on this?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Sharla, do you think multi-cultural societies don't exist or that it's a bad idea?
SHARLA MUSABIH
Multi-cultural society is great, with respect and preservation of what you have right there as well.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
And we don't have that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  Any Emiratis who are in the audience, we would like to hear from you.  Apart from the ones who are already on the panel.  Are you an Emirati, sir?  Okay, will you please stand up.  You have a question.
AUDIENCE (M)
I just wanted to ask, I believe that Dubai is a good idea but to negate the misconception of 9/11 for the Arabs, and should this have a good practice to sustain their image?  You know, like in marketing, when you do marketing, you have to sustain your image by putting good practice in it.  Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what are you saying?  Are you saying it's just got a bad image?
AUDIENCE (M)
I do believe that Dubai has a good image because to emphasise the modernisation of Arabs, it's not to exercise the bad stuff that we hear about Arabs, like mainly other people say that like Afghanistan is part of the Arab world but it's not part of the Arab world, so I'm against the motion but I do believe that Dubai is a good idea.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's interesting, how you can do both.  Okay.  We have a question from, up at the top there, yes, you, the gentleman.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hi. I'm Pakistani.  My question is particularly for Mr. Kanoo.  You seem to think that Dubai is a haven for the modern businessman.  You say that people can come here and grow and prosper.  My question to you is, please explain to the audience how a state that has just borrowed ten billion US dollars from Abu Dhabi, can build investor confidence.  Please explain how it is building investor confidence in the region.
MISHAL KANOO
This question wasn't asked a few years ago, when Dubai was starting?  Just because there was a global financial crisis doesn't mean that Dubai's model is unsustainable.  Now, I will agree, with one aspect from the other side, from my opponents in that I don't really believe that we should have done it in 15 years, maybe 50 years, but still, is it a viable proposition?  I think it is.  Is Dubai going to be able to come out of this one?  I think it will, be it by the help of Abu Dhabi or by the help of whoever it happens.  I will tell you, if you are in a business and all of a sudden your business turns sour against you, do you not go and borrow from the bank?
AUDIENCE (M)
But how much borrowing?
TIM SEBASTIAN  
Simon Jenkins.
SIMON JENKINS
Well, there's a serious danger of us agreeing, which would be a disaster for the motion.  Fifteen versus fifty, is the essence of this debate.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Yes.
SIMON JENKINS
But the idea, the idea was fifteen.
MISHAL KANOO  
No, I'm sorry I disagree.  That is not the essence of the point.  The essence of the point is whether Dubai as a whole is a good idea.  Dubai as a whole, how ...
SIMON JENKINS  
Well, either way the essence of the idea was to break through what might be called gradual organic growth.  You've rushed for growth by building huge amounts of buildings.  That was the idea of present-day Dubai.  Someone asked the question about whether it isn't all just bad publicity.  That's rubbish.  Every state thinks it gets bad publicity.  Confidence is the key to capitalism, and confidence has been destroyed, briefly maybe, but it has been destroyed for the time being by going so fast for growth that you have a big collapse, and then you can't even tolerate people debating it.
MISHAL KANOO  
Question:  In 18 months if things turn around and Dubai all of a sudden is back on track, do you think the same bankers who are today arguing against Dubai will not be back here and knocking on the door saying: "Please can we give you money?"
SIMON JENKINS  
I will take you out to dinner if that proves to be the case.
MISHAL KANOO  
Fine.  I look forward to enjoying a very nice dinner.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Do we have any other Emiratis in the audience?  You sir.  Do you have a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
Hello.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You are from ...
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Dubai. My question is to Mrs. Sharla.  She says that Emirati nationals are being mistreated ...
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Not mistreated.
AUDIENCE (M)
... all over Dubai.
SHARLA MUSABIH
No. I didn't say that.
AUDIENCE (M)
The women are being used as sex slaves and prostitutes.  I mean, I've never heard anything like that in my life, about Dubai.
SHARLA MUSABIH
Of course.  You would never hear it.  You wouldn't hear it.  You know why you wouldn't hear it?  Because your bloody media is just so... in the media you don't hear anything.  You don't know the truth.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm not talking about the media.  I'm talking about being an Emirati national, living in Emirati society... I've never heard anything like that.
SHARLA MUSABIH
How would you hear it, how would you hear it?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you let him finish please.
AUDIENCE (M)
It's not about media, it's about the Emirati society that I'm living in.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Where would you hear it from?  Where would you hear it?
AUDIENCE (M)
From any person that I'm living with in the Emirati society.
SHARLA MUSABIH
It's hidden.  It's all, everything is propaganda and hidden.  There are not proper systems ...
AUDIENCE (M)
There's nothing hidden between the society ...
SHARLA MUSABIH
Oh yes there is.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sharla Musabih, will you let him finish.
AUDIENCE (M)
Maybe it is between the media, but it's not in general society.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
You're not talking to a kid here.  I've lived there for 26 years.  I'm an Emirati and my husband's ...
AUDIENCE (M)
I've lived here my whole life, but I've never seen or heard anything about that.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
See that, there you go. "I've never seen or heard anything about it."
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well it's a difference of opinion.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
How, Sharla, you say it's hidden.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
It's hidden.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Well, how can you hide a common practice that's widely practised by a community?  How can you hide that?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
They don't report the truth.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
You don't have to report it if it's common practice, everyone will have two eyes and two ears to see it and hear it.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Well, I don't know where this young man has been, but if you go to Deira they're everywhere.  If you go to (inaudible) they're everywhere.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you an Emirati, sir?  Can we have another Emirati?  Or a Qatari question?  Okay, gentleman at the back
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Saudi Arabia.  My question to Mr. Nasser is about what about the legal system in Dubai?  What about discrimination in Dubai based on religion.  What about the few hundreds of Lebanese Shia workers deported from Dubai few months ago.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Well, that's a political issue.  It's nothing to do with religion, discrimination of religion. That's unheard-of.  Discrimination of religion in Dubai, that is unheard-of.  That's not true.  That's a political reason, these guys have been deported for political reasons.  It's not because they are Shia.  You have 150, more than 150 different religions, listen, you could have another argument but not the religion argument, not in Dubai, sorry.  Sharla.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
That's true, that's true.  That's true, no.  Dubai actually has so much respect for diversity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
A rare moment of agreement between the two sides.
AUDIENCE (M)
What about the religious freedom in Dubai. Why we don't see churches in Dubai?  How many Christians are there in Dubai?
MISHAL KANOO  
More than Muslims.
SHARLA MUSABIH
There are.
AUDIENCE (M)
There are many Christian workers in Dubai.
SHARLA MUSABIH
And they're respected..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I 'm going to move on to a gentleman in the red shirt in the second row.  You, sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
I am an Indian.  My question is to the opposition.   Don't you believe that the plans for Dubai, however far-fetched they are, are leaving the people, and as you said, the resident guest-workers if you will, out of the decisions.  Don't you believe that the government is leaving the people out of the decisions for the growth that they make in the country?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Should immigrant workers get a say in how their lives are managed?
MISHAL KANOO  
May I answer that question?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please.
MISHAL KANOO  
In economically developed countries such at Switzerland where they do have guest workers, they tell the guest workers: "When you've finished your job, go home."
SHARLA MUSABIH
Yes.
MISHAL KANOO
Okay?  So we're no different.  Our government is responsible for us as citizens, inasmuch as your government will be responsible for you.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
You see, every immigrant worker has a say in Dubai.  If he doesn't like it, he goes back.  You can't say more than that.
SHARLA MUSABIH
Not while his passport is being held.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from you, sir, yes.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm Qatari and my question is for the proposition, especially the lady speaker.  How are any of the comments or propositions you've made today unique in any way to Dubai?  It seems that everything you said relates to not only the Middle East, the Gulf region in particular but every emerging nation.
SHARLA MUSABIH
Well, you're absolutely right, you are absolutely right, and there are human rights violations throughout the world, and often when, because I was running a women's shelter and I was working day and night protecting women victims of violence, rape and trafficking and abuse, and as I was walking into the police protecting these women, not only from the perpetrator but from the police, Okay.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So the questioner is absolutely right?
SHARLA MUSABIH
The answer to your question is, how is it different that if I go into a police station in the United States with a victim of domestic violence, the State presses a charge against the man who committed violence against that woman, but the police are not ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let the questioner come back.
AUDIENCE (M)
Emerging countries, you're talking about the United States.  I'm talking about rapidly growing economies. 
SHARLA MUSABIH
Okay.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Simon Jenkins, come in.
SIMON JENKINS
I find this part of the conversation very difficult.  It is not my business, I'm a foreigner, I do not like commenting on other people's countries or how they run their countries, it is literally not my business.  I wish my own country wasn't pretending to run other countries at the moment, throughout this region.   I am appalled by what we're doing.  The sinner does cast stones in his own house, as well as in other houses, you're absolutely right Nasser.  I do think, however, and this is a very tentative suggestion à propos of the motion that the pace in which you I believe recklessly allow your city to build, literally build, invites problems that wouldn't be there if you were growing organically like most cities do, and I do think it is one of the faults of what happened to the idea of Dubai, if I can come back to the motion, that it actually produced within itself these stresses and strains that do seem to be peculiarly unjust.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Well, actually when you import your police from places such as Yemen and Sudan ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You made that point before.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
No, when you do that ...
NASSER AL GHAITH
What's wrong with that?
SHARLA MUSABIH
... and you don't give them any training ...
NASSER AL GHAITH
You are discriminating based on nationality.  You're a human rights activist and you are discriminating based on nationality.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to get back to the questioner.  I'm going back to the questioner.
AUDIENCE (M)
I apologise for taking up so much time.  I'd rather this goes out to the audience.  However, I'll just come back to the point.  If I understand you correctly, then you're saying that rapid growth, regardless of where it is, is a bad idea as opposed to Dubai in itself is a bad idea.  However, that's not the motion here today.  Please if you could tell me what specifically in what you're proposing today relates to Dubai because if I understand correctly, then you're saying that rapid growth in Qatar, in Kuwait and the rest of the GCC is also a bad idea.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Simon Jenkins.
SIMON JENKINS
Forgive me if I was drawing a false distinction but I do think there's a distinction here.  I mean, all over the world, there are the wreckages of cities that expanded too fast, and they all incurred horrendous social disruption because they expanded too fast.  There is a difference between expanding within what might be called the terms of your own market, which I think applies to most of the Gulf.  Most of the Gulf is very rich with oil for instance, and expanding on the basis of one man's vision of dreams of architectural glory, that is the distinction and it has produced problems.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nasser Al Ghaith.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Yeah, I don't see the link between growth, rapid growth and human rights violation or abuse.  There is more human right violation in Africa, there is no growth there.
MISHAL KANOO
To come back to this point that you mentioned, what is wrong, seriously what is wrong with wanting to have the best education system possible?  Now I can't say whether they achieved it or not, but wanting it, what is wrong with wanting the best health care system available?  What is wrong with wanting to have the best financial system available?  Now, I'm not saying that they managed to achieve it, but I'm saying that's what they want, that was the goal, that was the aim, wanting those things for the citizens and the benefit is for the non-citizens as well, where everyone can benefit out of this.  I think that something which we can all aspire to.
SIMON JENKINS
I totally agree, nothing is wrong.  My country at the moment wanted the best banking system in the world, thought it got it, wanted the best education, wanted the best Health Service.  As a result of wrecking its banking system, it's going to have a poorer health service and a poorer education service.  These things are linked.  If you don't control capitalism, it will run away with yourself and it will mess you all up.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I'm going to take a question from the gentleman up there in the striped shirt, yeah.  We'll get a microphone to you please.  Thank you.  Could you tell us where you're from please?
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Pakistan.  I don't think Dubai is a bad idea.  I think it just became a victim of the financial tsunami, which was caused by American institutions like the Lehman Brothers, and the whole world is affected by it.
SHARLA MUSABIH
I think that Dubai indeed was somewhat of a victim of exploitation, and I think that when you study the whole issue of human trafficking and how it works, it actually does start in the area of where the labour is coming from, and so when you have companies coming into Dubai and setting up, their whole mandate is to traffic those workers into Dubai and exploit them.  It's just that we need to be honest and realistic and transparent, and not just create a façade and not create propaganda saying that this doesn't happen.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.
SHARLA MUSABIH
We need to think about it.
MISHAL KANOO
I don't think anyone ever said that it doesn't happen.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Yes, they do.
MISHAL KANOO
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we'll move on to a question.  We have moved on, thank you.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Thank you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi, I'm from New York but I live and work in Qatar right now.  Putting the financial situation aside for a moment, is Dubai a good city with a strong Arab culture and heritage or is Dubai just a Las Vegas on steroids?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nasser Al Ghaith, would you like to answer that?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
You're coming from New York, do you think New York is a good idea?  Is there any New York culture in New York.  Do you think there is a New York culture in New York?
SHARLA MUSABIH
You see, this is the thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you please, you've had a say on the last question, thank you both.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
The problem is, you say the thing and you say the opposite thing at the same time.  Are you promoting multi-culturalism or are you, what are you proposing precisely? Now, what is the culture of New York, what it's like?  New York is the most successful city in the United States.  Are there New Yorkers in New York?
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes, very many.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Really?
AUDIENCE (F)
... and I think it's got a very strong character.  But having been here, I think the Arabic culture is absolutely lovely and I think your heritage is wonderful.  I just don't see it in Dubai.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
Okay.  I'm an Arab, I was born and live in Dubai.  I think my culture is very good.
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
But it's a culture among other cultures.  Do you want to see a whole one culture city or a multi-cultural city, what do you think?
MISHAL KANOO
Could I also add on to this one?  Would you like me to impose Arabic on you, would you like me to force you to wear what we have to wear?  Would you like me to force you have to drink the way we drink?  What do you want?  We're talking about a multi-cultural city that is a beacon to the... even within the Arab world.  Which Arabs are you talking about?  Are you talking about North Africa?  Are you talking about Yemen, are you talking about Iraq?  Which Arabs are you talking about?  Please be more specific on that one.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to take a question from the lady in that row.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm Arab/American, and I have a question for you, Mr. Jenkins, about the idea that it was bad ideology that set Dubai in place.  My question is whether with a crash course in globilisation, you can tell us if in 1997 we would have had the same conversation about the emerging tigers of Asia, so my question is, are we just in the business of disposable cities, cities that emerge and are eclipsed by another city? And therefore to you Emiratis, is Dubai just being, the throne of Dubai is being shaken a little bit after it has eclipsed other cities in Asia, and who's next to all of you, if we're still in that ideology?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Simon Jenkins.
SIMON JENKINS
It's a very good question.  I mean, we're all in the prediction game here.   Everybody in this room is trying to predict something.  We're not describing what's happened, we're trying to predict what's going to happen.  I hate it when I see cities die.  I've seen Machu Picchu, I've seen Angkor Wat, there are cities in the desert which have died.  I don't want that to happen to any city today.  I mean, it causes appalling dislocation and waste, human suffering.  It tends to happen usually when one very ambitious ruler simply got too big for himself, excited, he tried to build castles in the sky.  That tends to happen ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're shaking your head.  Do you disagree with that?
AUDIENCE (F)
But first talk about bad ideas, bad ideas tend to die and it seems to me that if you're describing that as an ideology that motivated the emergence of Dubai, my question to you is that the same ideology that had these emerging Asian tigers a while back and it doesn't seem to me like it's a bad idea.  It's sustained till today and will go further.
SIMON JENKINS
I'm sure Machu Picchu seemed a terrific place once, but coming back to the question about Las Vegas on steroids, I mean, I think that's a terrible description of a future for a city, but it's not totally inconceivable.  It could well be that the city states of the Gulf race ahead because they've done it more carefully, more organically, and Dubai is left as Las Vegas on steroids, or Atlantic City to New York, which is a better parallel I think.  Perfectly conceivable but I don't think it's going to happen but it's conceivable.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
Mr. Jenkins, Dubai as a city will die, but Dubai as an idea, it won't die.  Cities do die.  Cities are just like human beings, they're born and they grow up and they flourish and they get old and they die, just like empires, they rise and they decline.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you think you'd be popular for saying that in Dubai?
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
Sorry?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you think you'd be popular ...
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
As I said, it should die.  I mean, where is Damascus, where's Baghdad?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm not sure Mishal Kanoo agrees with you.  Mishal Kanoo, you don't agree with that, do you?
MISHAL KANOO
Actually I was going to ask the question of how would you define death. How is Dubai dead, or how will it die?
SIMON JENKINS
Well, Angkor Wat is dead .. cities do die.
MISHAL KANOO
We're talking centuries later. 
SIMON JENKINS
Yes we are.
MISHAL KANOO
How is it going to die?  I'm still trying to figure out how is it going to die.  Are people going to stop functioning?
SIMON JENKINS  
Coming back to Nasser's point, Nasser thinks the idea will live, but the city will die.  I think the city will live, but the idea will die.  The idea will prove to have been a mistake.  You should plan your cities, you shouldn't have visions for them.
SHARLA MUSABIH
You should manage them, you should manage them, not mismanage them.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
You just mentioned controlled capitalism  Well, that's an oxymoron   Capitalism is more about freedom, and free markets, how can you control capitalism?  You can't have it both ways.
SIMON JENKINS
Capitalism requires a framework of the market.  The market requires control.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
And who's going to control the market, the government, do you want the government to control the market?
SIMON JENKINS
Yes, yes. Look what's happened when they stopped.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Stopped what?
SIMON JENKINS  
The credit crunch. That's the result of the failure of government control.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
That's because of regulation.  During the 90s there was more regulation into the market than it used to be in the 70s.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question ...
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
Is that the government failure or the market failure?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I'm going to take a question from the lady up there.  You've had your hand up for a while. 
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening.  I'm from France and I would like to ask a question to the opposition side.  If you think Dubai is such a model, why hasn't it taken its responsibility on environmental issues seriously?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you.  That's a question that hasn't come up so far.  Environmental responsibility.  You have the largest carbon footprint per head of the population.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
Who has taken the environmental responsibility in the world?  That's not a fair question, question why environmental policies.    Who did?  Who did, tell me.  China, United States, Europe,  Who did?  Nobody did.
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Every time they ask a question about Dubai, you divert on to something ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You had something to say.  I'm trying to give you a platform here.
NASSER BIN GHAITH  
I don't think it's a good idea for you to play this environmental card.  Nobody has dared take his role in saving the environment.  Everybody is polluting, starting from China.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mishal Kanoo, please answer the question, somebody.
MISHAL KANOO
Just to give you an idea, would you say that Europeans are very much environmentally conscious?
AUDIENCE (F)
There is a ...
MISHAL KANOO
Okay, if you come to Dubai and see the number of SUVs that exist in Dubai and who owns these SUVs and then come and tell me what about the Europeans affecting the environment.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  A quick question from the gentleman in the third row, please.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hi.  I'm from the States.  My question is to Dr. Nasser.  Earlier in the evening you said that countries in the Middle East now have a beacon of hope in Dubai, and they no longer have to look to the West, but what beacon of hope can other countries in the Middle East have when Dubai, where this beacon of hope, are you say, has come crashing down right in front of their very eyes?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Well, I don't agree with the final statement you made, but I think you can learn from the success in Dubai, as much as you can learn from the failure of Dubai.
SHARLA MUSABIH
I agree with that.  I agree with that.  I think that you can learn from its success and you can look at the amount of the propaganda in human rights violations and say: "Where did we go wrong?  How could we have saved those lives, how could we have been a voice for the voiceless?"
NASSER BIN GHAITH
It's capitalism at its best.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to Nasser bin Ghaith)
Could you let her finish.
SHARLA MUSABIH
"How could we have been a better voice for the people that are suffering exploitation."  Oh my God, you know, we have all of these victims and all of these stories that we're covering up but yet they're coming out ...
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Who's covering up?  How many years have you been an activist in Dubai?
SHARLA MUSABIH  
Hmm?
NASSER BIN GHAITH
How many years have you been an activist in Dubai?
SHARLA MUSABIH
I've been working since 1991.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
‘91 until 2003, 4, 5?
SHARLA MUSABIH
... until 2008.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
For 15 years you've been an activist in Dubai, and nobody stopped you.
SHARLA MUSABIH
2008 is when I ...
NASSER BIN GHAITH
What happened in 2008?
SHARLA MUSABIH
Smear campaign.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right. 
NASSER BIN GHAITH
Why?  After 15 years, what happened?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we've covered that.
SHARLA MUSABIH
I refused to accept a position in a government organisation, I said it was a conflict of interest, I need to stay an NGO, they took offence at that and that's ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  Thank you.
NASSER BIN GHAITH
They allowed you to do your free work for 15 years.  They allowed you to do that for 15 years.
SHARLA MUSABIH
They should allow me to do it for another 15.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, thank you very much indeed, thank you.  We've come to the point, ladies and gentlemen, we are going to vote on the motion "This House believes Dubai is a bad idea."  Before you use your voting machines, let me just explain how they work.  If you want to vote for the motion, that is the side represented by Simon Jenkins and Sharla Musabih, it's button one, the yes button.  If you want to vote against the motion, that's the side represented by Nasser bin  Ghaith and Mishal Kanoo, it's button two, the no button.  Whichever button you want to press, would you do it now.  You only have to press once.  Through the miracles of modern science your vote will be communicated to our computers and we should have it up for you on the screen in a moment or two.

There's the result: 38 per cent for the motion, 62 per cent against.  The motion has been resoundingly defeated.  All it remains for me to do is to thank our distinguished panellists for coming here tonight.  Thank you to you, the audience, for your questions, and the Doha Debates will be back again later this month.  Till then, from all of us on the team, have a safe journey home.  Good night.  Thank you very much.  Good night.