This House believes that Arab governments have failed the Palestinians

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome back to the Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. This is the start of our second series here in the Gulf, and we're determined to keep up the pressure, pressure for tough open analysis of controversial issues, pressure on our speakers and on you, the audience, to come up with new arguments and new thinking. Tonight the motion goes to the heart of some of the bitterest sentiments of the Arab world, 'This House believes that Arab governments have failed the Palestinians'. Well, whichever way you vote, we hope this will serve as a catalyst for some lively debate about one of the most divisive issues in the region, who helped the Palestinians, who stood in their way, and did the Palestinians ever really help themselves. Let's see if we can sift some of the truth from the volumes of fiction. Four speakers tonight, all with instructions to be brief but persuasive. Speaking for the motion, Hussein Ibish, who's a Senior Fellow at the American Task Force on Palestine, a frequent writer and broadcaster on Middle Eastern affairs. He co-authored the book entitled The Palestinians Right of Return. Born in Beirut, he now holds both US and Lebanese citizenship. Ghada Karmi is a Research Fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Exeter University in England. Based now in Ramallah, she is also an Information Adviser to the Palestinian Authority. She has found time, in her busy life, to qualify as a Doctor of Medicine, and contributes regularly to a number of journals and newspapers. Now against the motion, Ahmed Maher, a career diplomat who chose to retire after a long and distinguished career but was made an offer he couldn't refuse and became Egypt's 71st Foreign Minister, a post he held until he really did retire last year. Well, three years ago during an interview on Iraq, I accused him of sitting on the fence. He replied disarmingly, 'But we're all sitting on the fence.' Not tonight though, I'm sure. And Michael Tarazi who's a Palestinian lawyer, now advising the Palestinian Authority's Minister for Jerusalem Affairs. He's previously served with the PLO in the Negotiations Affairs Department. Hard to know whether that was more or less challenging than his time practising securities law in New York. Suffice it to say that he's used to a variety of different pressures, a great qualification to sit here as the fourth member of our panel. And now let me call on Hussein Ibish to begin by speaking for the motion.

HUSSEIN IBISH
Thank you very much, Tim. I'd like to start by inviting all of you in the audience to join me in a thought experiment. Let's look at the present situation of the Palestinians and let's say, for the sake of argument, that this does not constitute somehow failure. Let's not call it success, let's call it something like neutral maybe, and then let's extrapolate in our imaginations a downward spiral in the direction of failure. Now, can you imagine what failure would then look like? Neither can I. I mean, how much worse would things have to get before we could say to ourselves, 'Arabs, your governments have failed the Palestinians.' Of course Arab governments have failed the Palestinians, of course they have. Across the Arab world, while the Palestinian issue has often been used cynically by governments as a rallying cry, a diversion and an excuse for internal repression, Palestinians themselves have all too often been feared, at times hated, and sometimes even persecuted by Arab regimes. The outrageous and shameful behaviour of the government of Lebanon, my home country, towards its own Palestinian refugee population would probably be exhibit A, excluded as they are from so many professions, hemmed into some of the most wretched refugee camps in the entire world. There are many other key examples, of course, including the expulsion of Palestinians from Libya and Kuwait, one could go on and on. I doubt anyone in this audience is unaware of this sorry record. It's a sad but true commentary and one that we need to face up to, that Palestinians living in my adopted country, the United States, have more rights than they do in any Arab state. Worse still, Arab governments have consistently encouraged the Palestinian national movement to adopt a set of self-defeating strategies in the pursuit of national liberation. While almost all Arab states have developed pragmatic policies of their own towards Israel, they have promoted political stridency and militant rhetoric among Palestinians, encouraging them to live in a fantasy world in which a simplistic formula of armed struggle, steadfastness, you have to love these buzz words, steadfastness, and worst of all, the very worst buzz word of all, martyrdom, are framed as a serious response to the incredibly complex challenges facing Palestinian national liberation. Many Arab governments have uncompromisingly championed the Palestinian cause with words, of course, only with words, encourage Palestinians to confront the vastly more powerful Israelis alone and virtually unarmed, and then fetishised images of dead and dying Palestinians on satellite television, while fearing and mistreating Palestinians, live Palestinians, in their own states, and at the same time doing all sorts of business, whether openly or covertly, with Israel. In effect, many Arab governments have been willing and committed to fight the Israelis till the last Palestinian. Three quick provisos on this. First, no doubt, Arabs generally as individuals and as societies have cared deeply about the Palestinians and have done much to help them. Second, most of the blame no doubt for the terrible situation and suffering of the Palestinians belongs at the feet of their main persecutors, the State of Israel. Thirdly, the international community led by the United States has failed the Palestinian people, as has the historically poor if not at times wretched leadership of the Palestinian national movement. But this debate isn't about any of those actors or any of those things. We are here to discuss the spectacular failure of the Arab governments towards the Palestinians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hussein Ibish, thank you very much indeed. You talked about the Arab governments fighting to the last Palestinian. The Arab governments launched five wars against Israel ...
HUSSEIN IBISH
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... on behalf of the Palestinians.
HUSSEIN IBISH
In the distant past.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is that not good enough for you?
HUSSEIN IBISH
In the distant past.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They shed a lot of blood, didn't they.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Yes, certainly that's among the things that I meant when I said individual Palestinians, individual Arabs had suffered for the Palestinians. Many had fought, in the distant past.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's because their governments went to war with ...
HUSSEIN IBISH
That doesn't constitute success.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you can't criticise them for not trying.
HUSSEIN IBISH
It depends. I mean, I would argue that the intervention in 1948 was too little too late, and that in 1973, countries like Egypt were fighting to recover their own territory, and they were satisfied they'd achieved success because they ended up on the other side of the Suez Canal, and when they couldn't achieve their own particular national aims, which everyone should and could respect, which had to do with regaining their territorial integrity through war, they did it through negotiations, during which the Palestinian cause was put aside.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But had they succeeded, the Palestinians would have been the main beneficiaries, wouldn't they?
HUSSEIN IBISH
In 1948, yes. I don't know about 1973 because it was about regaining occupied national land of sovereign states. It's certainly possible. This is a counter-factual argument. It doesn't go to demonstrate in any way that Arab states have succeeded in supporting the Palestinians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It may not have succeeded but they tried. The issue is kept alive at every major forum. They try at every major forum to bring up the issue of the Palestinians, it's raised by the Arab League, raised by Arab governments, it's not forgotten, it's continually used as a lever and that tool isn't good enough for you.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Right, because what I think is that it's being used rhetorically for often cynical political reasons, as I say, often domestic reasons, often regional reasons, but I think that for the most part, certainly since 1973, Palestinians have been left to face the Israelis on their own and Arab state after Arab state has developed their own pragmatic policies towards the Israelis and I believe that, given the rhetoric prevalent in the Arab world ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
There are only two peace treaties, there are only two peace treaties, aren't there?
HUSSEIN IBISH
There is a lot more to dealing with the Israelis than making a fully fledged peace treaty. There is a lot of stuff that I referred to, sort of not necessarily covert but below the radar screens, there's a lot of dealing with Israel, which is perfect for Arab states that have to confront the reality that Israel is there and Israel is not going anywhere. The problem is, in many cases they have encouraged Palestinians to persist in behaving as if the Israelis somehow were going to go away ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Which Palestinians, they're split, aren't they, which factions have they encouraged? Did they encourage Yasser Arafat?
HUSSEIN IBISH
I mean, that's another question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, he didn't need encouragement, did he?
HUSSEIN IBISH
Well, look. There is no doubt, as I said, the Palestinian leadership has often been poor and I certainly wouldn't defend the historical record of the Palestinian leadership, but there is no question in my mind that Arab states have encouraged a simplistic formula which was bound to fail, and have not supported Palestinians in trying to develop a much more sophisticated nuance posée that might actually have led to national liberation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Hussein Ibish, thank you very much indeed.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Thank you, Tim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Maher, can I ask you to speak against the motion please.

AHMED MAHER
Thank you, Tim, for having tried to get us out of the world of fantasy, because what I heard is a lot of fantasy, a lot of innuendos, and what one gets from this speech is that the Palestinians are not players in this game, they are pawns of countries that are using them, and they have no cause to defend for themselves.  I believe this to be absolutely wrong.  The question is, I think that you said that Israel is still there.  It is there and it is still going to be there, but the failure is the failure of the world to support the Palestinian cause.  What the Arab countries did was fight at the United Nations for the Palestinian cause, fight on the terrain for the Palestinian cause, fight diplomatically, fight through political action.  I think the Arabs did a lot that they had to do, but the world failed the Arabs and failed the Palestinians.  If you speak about Egypt, and I think Camp David was mentioned, '73 was mentioned, we fought in '73 to recuperate all Arab territories, starting by Egyptian territory, because it was believed, and I think it is true, that a stronger Egypt would be in a stronger position to help the Palestinians, because we believe, and the Arab countries believe that their national security is linked to the Palestinian question.  We believe that without the solution of the Palestinian question on the basis of justice, there will be no stability in the region, there will always be a situation very difficult for everybody, and that is why, in '73, I was there at Camp David, when we were talking not only about the recuperation of the Egyptian territory, but also about the Palestinian problem, and we came out with two documents, one concerning Egypt and one concerning the negotiations for the Palestinian question.  It is true that this was not accepted at the time by the Palestinians but it did not prevent us getting into very thorough and difficult negotiations in order to get the Israelis to recognise the existence of the Palestinian problem, the existence of the Palestinian people,. And if there has been a recognition later on of the PLO, or the Palestinian Authority by Israel, it is in fact due to efforts by Egypt, to the steps that Egypt has taken.  What we see now is the situation where we have tried everything we could and I think what remains to be seen is how the world reacts to the attitudes of the Israelis and support also the Palestinian people, which is a moral obligation as much as a political obligation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Maher, thank you very much indeed.  If, as you say, you did all you could, why did Egypt pass a series over the years of restrictive laws against the Palestinians about their right to return to the country, travel documents which insisted that they get visas outside the country before they were allowed back in, restrictions on the students, the kind of education they could have and the jobs they could have.  Why so many restrictions on the Palestinians if you were playing the role of friendly uncle?
AHMED MAHER
Let me tell you that the number of Palestinians working in Egypt and studying in Egypt, having studied in Egypt, is enormous.  There were some restrictions but one of the main reasons of these ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why?  There were a lot of restrictions.
AHMED MAHER
I'll tell you why.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not just some but a lot.
AHMED MAHER
This was a position of all the Arab countries.  They did not want the Palestinians to leave Palestine because this would in fact evacuate the whole problem.  If you allowed the Palestinians to go all over the world, this would mean that the Israelis would have achieved their goal of putting an end to the existence of the Palestinian people on the Palestinian territories.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But once they're there, is that a reason to mistreat them, or not to give them equal rights?
AHMED MAHER
There was no mistreatment, there were some regulations, but I still tell you that the numbers of Palestinians who are working in Egypt today, who have been working in Egypt for the last years, 20, 30, 40  years, the number of students who came to study in Egypt and who are studying in Egypt is by the thousands.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Palestinian students have been banned from joining colleges of medicine, pharmacy, economics, political science and journalism in Egypt.  Why?
AHMED MAHER
I don't believe this is true.  I believe that the Palestinians have been allowed to study in Egypt.  At one time they did not come, but as of today, if you count the number of people who graduated from Egyptian universities, if you count the numbers of Palestinians who have been very successful businessmen and working in Egypt, you will find this to be quite a lot.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the work was restricted.  Let me cite to you presidential decrees 47 and 48 in July 1978, which cancelled earlier decisions which treated the Palestinians like Egyptians, from then on the Ministry of Human Resources also prohibited the employment of foreigners including Palestinians in trade, particularly imports and exports, except those who were married to Egyptians for more than five years.  That's pretty restrictive.
AHMED MAHER
In '78.  That was the time when the re-affirmation of the existence of the Palestinian people, of the personality of the Palestinian people was important.  Maybe some of these restrictions were not absolutely justified, but the whole idea was to maintain the existence of the Palestinian people as a Palestinian people, not to let them disappear in the midst of other people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Ahmed Maher, thank you very much indeed. And now Ghada Karmi to speak for the motion.

GHADA KARMI
Thank you. I speak with a heavy heart because as an Arab, I should not attack fellow Arabs, but it is not the Arab people, who have always supported the Palestinians, that I mean. It is their governments who so often do not represent them. What I say will earn me no favours with Arab governments, but I believe that if we are to progress, we Arabs must not be afraid to be self-critical and to face our faults honesty. Yes, the Arab governments have failed the Palestinians. Now the other side argues, and I knew it would, that they'd helped them a lot. We don't deny that, they did help. They have given them funding, they have given them help, the sort of thing you've heard about, Jordan gave them citizenship and so on, but look closer. The Arab states never succeeded in defeating Israel. In 1978, which His Excellency has referred to, Egypt, the only state which could have, left the battle front with the Camp David Treaty. Since then, the rest have been trying to make peace with Israel, a state that occupies Arab land and kills Arabs. Today, they are falling over themselves to recognise Israel. Why? Because Israel vacated a few settlements which were illegal anyway, and look what we're reduced to. Egypt, that great power, is now Israel's policeman on Gaza's border, and the rest watch helplessly while Israel kills and bombs the Palestinians, and steals their land, and Israel's best friend, America, lays waste to that great country, Iraq. I am not unsympathetic to the Arab governments' dilemma. They owe their support, and in many cases their very existence, to American favour. America is Israel's greatest ally, so if they fight Israel, they risk losing American support and threaten their own survival. It is an unenviable position, but no matter what the cause, for the Palestinians it comes down to the same thing: the Arab governments have failed them. So I urge you tonight to vote with your consciences. You know that I'm saying what most of you think but do not say. I urge you, vote on the side of truth and honesty, vote to support our motion.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ghada Karmi, thank you very much indeed. Since we are talking about truth and you want to be self-critical, perhaps one of the reasons that the Arab governments have not supported the Palestinians as much as you like is because perhaps the Palestinians have failed the Arab governments, or at least the Palestinian governments have failed the Arabs.
GHADA KARMI
Look, we're not talking about the Palestinian failure. Of course there are Palestinian mistakes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mistakes? Spectacular corruption, nepotism, brutality on a grand scale?
GHADA KARMI
No, no, let's get this in perspective. It's not spectacular at all. If you want to actually ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, Edward Said referred to it as spectacular and he had some pretty intimate knowledge, didn't he?
GHADA KARMI
Edward Said is great, I respect him but he wasn't right about everything.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What about the former Palestinian Minister of Supplies. He called it 'inconceivable moral degradation.' This is Ali Shahin, former Palestinian Minister of Supplies.
GHADA KARMI
Who is defending corruption? All I'm saying, don't call it spectacular. Please look at the state of the Arab world.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hundreds of millions of dollars is not spectacular? You wanted to be self-critical and open.
GHADA KARMI
OK. We are not discussing whether the Palestinians themselves could have done better. They could, but that's not our motion. The motion tonight is, did the Arab governments fail them, and I've just shown that they did.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And I'm saying that perhaps the Palestinians failed the Arab governments. Perhaps they didn't want to support a regime that was as corrupt and nepotistic as the one they had to deal with over many years. That's what some of them say.
GHADA KARMI
But the Palestinians, they didn't have a regime for decades, and they did not receive the support they needed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yasser Arafat wasn't their leader, in control of their funds?
GHADA KARMI
Yasser Arafat indeed was their leader.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Exactly.
GHADA KARMI
He was their leader but ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
In control of the purse strings or not?
GHADA KARMI
In control of the purse strings but this is not about Palestinian corruption or not. This is about whether ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's about the attitude of the Arab governments to the Palestinians. You're saying they failed them. I'm telling you why the Palestinians may have failed the Arabs.
GHADA KARMI
It's about Arab government performance with the Palestinian cause, and the Palestinian cause isn't just Yasser Arafat and a few corrupt ministers.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It isn't?
GHADA KARMI
It is not, of course not. It's a world cause. You know very well what it is.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ghada Karmi, thank you very much indeed. Michael Tarazi, let me ask you to speak against the motion please.

MICHAEL TARAZI
I have to admit that when I first heard the motion tonight, I thought to myself, 'Well, how can you have a debate?' I mean, everybody knows the Palestinians have been failed by the Arab governments, what's anyone going to say?' And then I started thinking about it and I thought to myself, 'This is actually making me angry, because not only is it false, but it actually imposes a double standard on the Arab governments.' Why does this resolution focus on Arab governments? I mean, we all know that it's the international community as a whole that has failed the Palestinians, and yet this resolution focuses on the Arab governments. Why? Because there's an unstated but understood assumption behind the question that all we brown people in the Middle East should have a tribal allegiance to each other that supersedes the obligations of the international community. That's simply not true. It is not the responsibility of the Arab governments alone to enforce international law against Israel. That is the obligation of practically every member of the United Nations, so why are we focusing on the Arabs? Let's focus a little bit on history. It wasn't the Arabs that gave away Palestine to the Zionists, was it? No, that was Britain. It wasn't the Arabs who helped develop Israel's nuclear technology. That was France. It's not the Arabs that gave Israel billions of dollars a year to help violate the rights of Palestinians and to build illegal settlements. That's the United States. And here we are blaming the Arabs. Why do we fall into this double standard and self-flagellate and say this is all our fault? To vote for this resolution is the equivalent of voting for a resolution that says, Arabs have an obligation to clean up a mess they didn't create, that they didn't want, that they don't exacerbate and over which they have very little authority. Why would we take on that obligation when it's not our fault? The second reason, aside from the double standard this imposes on the Arab governments, to oppose this resolution is that it's patently false. I'm shocked that there hasn't been a reference from the other side about the military efforts by the Arab countries. OK, they failed, but they tried, and they tried economically with the oil embargo in the early 70's. OK, it didn't have the results we wanted but they tried, and they tried again just recently in 2002 with the diplomatic initiative in which the entire Arab League, every Arab government, in a rare display of unity said; 'Israel, we will give you peace with all of us if you just abide by international law and get out of the occupied territories,' and Israel said, 'No, thank you very much,' and they invaded Ramallah the next day. The third reason and final reason to oppose this resolution is it's extraordinarily dangerous because it plays right into the Israeli strategy, of blaming everybody but themselves. I agree we should be self-critical, but I'm not going to jump on the self-criticism bandwagon just because Ghada tells me so. Let's think logically. Don't allow the Israelis to say that even the Arabs in Qatar say that the Arab governments have failed and so therefore Arabs treat Arabs that way, how do you expect us to treat them any better? Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Michael Tarazi, thank you very much indeed. You posed the question, why focus on the Arabs? Because the Arabs focus on the Palestinians the whole time, they raise it at every possible opportunity.
MICHAEL TARAZI
That's right. They do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They pledge large sums of money and only one of them gives it, Saudi Arabia, so they don't live up to their promises to the Palestinians, do they?
MICHAEL TARAZI
They raise the issue, which is a hell of a lot more than the rest of the international community.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And they don't live up to their pledges, do they?
MICHAEL TARAZI
And there's proof of the fact that they actually do help the Palestinians more than everybody else.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They don't live up to their pledges. They don't help them more. In 2004, the World Bank Trust gave budget support grants of 118 million, the EU gave 50 million, the US 20 million. Only one Arab country lived up to its pledge.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Tim, you think helping the Palestinians is throwing money at them so they feel more comfortable under occupation?
TIM SEBASTIAN
... not giving them the money that you pledged them, is that good help?
MICHAEL TARAZI
My goal as a Palestinian is not to live comfortably under occupation. My goal is to end that occupation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Wouldn't you like the money that was pledged?
MICHAEL TARAZI
How dare you treat me as if I just want money. I want my freedom.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Wouldn't you like the money that was pledged?
MICHAEL TARAZI
Where is the contribution for freedom?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who pays the salary of the Palestinian Authority?
MICHAEL TARAZI
I'm getting paid by the Norwegians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, exactly, exactly, that's my point. The reason the Arabs focus on it is because they raise it at every conceivable opportunity.
MICHAEL TARAZI
You're saying that the Arabs have failed the Palestinian people because they don't pay Michael Tarazi's salary. Well, that's great, thank you, Tim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And they don't give you the kinds of conditions to work in the other countries, in Lebanon for instance which Hussein Ibish talked about. Why not?
MICHAEL TARAZI
You know what, because that's not my goal. I was born in Kuwait ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you don't care about the conditions of Palestinians in other Arab countries?
MICHAEL TARAZI
No. I was born in an Arab country and I'm very grateful to Kuwait for giving me an opportunity that no other country did and we didn't know ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So I'm all right, Jack, and I don't care about the refugee camps in Lebanon.
MICHAEL TARAZI
I'm an example of the fact that not everyone's in a refugee camp in Lebanon, so why do we focus ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But what about those who are? No interest to you whatsoever.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Of course there's an interest but our goal is not to be integrated into Arab countries. Our goal is to liberate our own country...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You don't even mind about the mistreatment from Arab countries.
MICHAEL TARAZI
We're mistreated not just in Arab countries. Have you looked at the United States after September 11?
TIM SEBASTIAN
But we're talking about the Arab countries here.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Why? That's my whole question, why do you keep focusing on the Arabs?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Because they raise the issue of the Palestinians continually.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Thankfully, and that's actually evidence ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You can't have it both ways. You're arguing from one side and from the other. You want your cake and eat it.
MICHAEL TARAZI
No, of course I can have it both ways.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Michael Tarazi, thank you very much. Hussein Ibish, you want to come in here, and then I'm going to take some questions.
HUSSEIN IBISH
No, you got him in that huge contradiction, but I mean, what I want to point out is that Michael's statement actually made our case for us, perfectly, that they fought wars, they failed but they fought wars, then they put a diplomatic resolution and it failed. You know, it is a kind of punctuation in your entire speech that came back to recognising the truth of the proposition on the table, which is that Arab states, have they tried things? Yes. Are we saying they've done nothing at all? No, we're not. What we're saying is, have they failed? Yes. You said it yourself.
MICHAEL TARAZI
No.
HUSSEIN IBISH
I don't think you listen to yourself carefully enough.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Unfair. You are basing the failure on whether or not they were able to produce results, and I'm basing it on whether or not they tried. If you're basing failure on actually producing results, then the whole world is guilty.
HUSSEIN IBISH
No, no, no. The resolution does not say, 'The Arab states have tried but failed to help the Palestinians,' or it doesn't say, 'The Arab states have never done anything to help the Palestinians.'
MICHAEL TARAZI
It's how you judge fairly.
HUSSEIN IBISH
The Arab states have failed the Palestinians.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Great, that was my question to begin with. If this isn't failure, what is?
AHMED MAHER
The motion says, 'Fail the Palestinians.' It did not say that it failed in its effort to help the Palestinians.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Right.
AHMED MAHER
In fact what the motion says is that the Arabs did not achieve the results.
HUSSEIN IBISH
It doesn't say that.
AHMED MAHER
And we all know why they did not achieve the results.
HUSSEIN IBISH
And it doesn't say that either. You were right on the first point but you're wrong on the second. It doesn't say, ' ... have failed to achieve the results.' It says, 'Have failed the Palestinians.
HUSSEIN IBISH
That's not what it says. You are re-interpreting this question.
MICHAEL TARAZI
This is blaming the Arabs. It doesn't mean that it's failed.
HUSSEIN IBISH
It is not blaming, it is not.
GHADA KARMI
I appeal to our chairman, what is this motion about? It appears to be everything that the other side wants it to be about.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's usually the case I'm afraid, Ghada.
GHADA KARMI
It's about the international community, it's about anything but what the motion is about.
HUSSEIN IBISH
It says what it says, but there's a simple way of judging it. When we look at the present situation, is it a success or is it a failure? If it is a failure then ...
MICHAEL TARAZI
... it's the Arabs' fault?
HUSSEIN IBISH
No, I certainly did not say that.
HUSSEIN IBISH
The three provisos said specifically, right, that Arab individuals had tried to help, that the Palestinian leadership had been poor and the international community including the United States, all had failed, so you're attacking the straw man.

TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to bring the audience in here. Gentleman in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is, actually it's a comment, to Mr. Ahmed Maher. Arab regimes have not only failed the Palestinians, but many Arab regimes have in fact tried to hinder the peace process. Whenever calls for freedom are raised in Arab dictatorships or fake democracies, the Palestinian conflict is used as a justification for the very existence of those regimes. Whenever someone asks about their rights, they tell them, 'Look what's happening to the Palestinians, you're way better than them.' These instabilities threaten those regimes. Do you not agree that stability and peace in the Middle East would mean that more democrats would rise in the Middle East and threaten dictator and authoritarian regimes in the region?
AHMED MAHER
I did not get the question, I didn't hear very well, but what I want to say is that the facts are that we in Egypt for instance fought three wars for Palestine, '48 because that was an extremely unjust situation where people living in a country were being expelled in order to allow for other people to come and take their place. In 1956 we were attacked by Israel in co-operation with the British and the French because we were helping the Palestinians. In 1973 Egypt fought a war to liberate all the Arab territories from the Israeli occupation, and in fact all the efforts of Egypt, the sacrifices that Egypt made for the Palestinians, is not something that we are telling them that we have been very generous, but in fact because our national security is linked to the national security of the Palestinian people, to the liberation of the Palestinian people. In fact you can find any justification to say that we have not achieved the result that we achieved.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you tried and failed, this is what you're saying?
AHMED MAHER
Well, the motion doesn't say that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but I'm asking what you're saying here.
AHMED MAHER
No, I am saying that we tried but the world failed the Palestinians, failed justice, failed helping a people who have been evicted from their country. This is what happened. The United States' position, the British position ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, we're talking about the Arab governments' position.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I don 't think the real reason why those things happened in the Middle East were to help the Palestinians, but I think it was to further create more instability, because many unpopular regimes, like the one in Egypt, which don't have very strong popular support would like to create instability in the region, to promote their life-style.
AHMED MAHER
I don't think the Palestinians would agree with whatever you say, because they recognise the importance of the role the Arab countries and Egypt have played, they recognise it, and if you do not want to recognise it, if you do not want to recognise the responsibility of the world community for failing the Arab countries in their efforts, for failing the Palestinian people, for failing justice ...
HUSSEIN IBISH
We recognised both. We recognised the failure of the international community. I certainly did, and no-one has said here that Arabs have done nothing, these are both strong men. The question is, are we looking at success or are we looking at failure?
AHMED MAHER
Well it's not a very simple question.
HUSSEIN IBISH
I think that's an amazingly cynical way of looking at this.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we just let Michael Tarazi answer, can we have Michael Tarazi.
MICHAEL TARAZI
You identify failures in absolute terms because you're eager to blame. I want to define failure in terms of relative ability to do something about it. That's how you do it.
GHADA KARMI
Please, I want to bring our audience back to what we're actually talking about, what the motion is asking of us. I'm sorry, maybe that's how my mind works, I'm logical, we follow what we're asked to talk about. We're not talking about everything in the world. Now, there is no doubt that the international community has a role to play, that the Palestinians have a role to play. We're talking about Arab government performance, given that there are difficulties within a context in which the world is very difficult too, and so on, we understand that. Have they done as well as they could in those terms, have they succeeded? Now, actually we're saying we have to judge by results, not by intention.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't want to get into a debate about semantics here.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Let's return then, in which case let me suggest looking again at the way Arab states have treated Palestinian refugee populations in their own countries.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Lebanon.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Are you going to recite my entire opening speech again? That's exactly what I said. I said look at Lebanon, and by the way Lebanon has been attacked repeatedly by Israel because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict spilling over into Lebanon, that is not an excuse for the deplorable, wretched, outrageous, shameful treatment of the Palestinians by the Lebanese government. There is no excuse for it, there is no reason for it, and if that isn't failure, I don't know what failure is.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me take another question, gentleman standing there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for Mr. Hussein. Don't you think while not so strongly supporting the Palestinians, the Arab governments had not failed the Palestinians, and had they interfered and supported the Palestinians, they would have put more pressure on the Western countries to act in favour of Israel and disintegrating the peace process?
HUSSEIN IBISH
Yeah, as a matter of fact, I think there's probably a lot of truth in that, which is why I really don't think either of us have made the case that more failed wars or more wars were really the solution. The failure was not a failure in my view primarily to persist in wars. That is not the solution to the situation post 1948, and I think we've had to learn that the hard way. I think most serious people understand that. The solution is two-fold, first to treat the Palestinians in various Arab states much better than most states have done, Lebanon is, as I said, exhibit A, but there are many others. Secondly, and this is more important and this is the substance of what I'm saying, to help the Palestinians develop a pragmatic strategy for national liberation, one that understands and accepts the basic realities that exist, not exist in a fantasy world where Israel somehow can go away or where Israel can be confronted in an armed struggle by lightly armed gangs of Palestinian resistant fighters, but rather to engage the full complexity of what is going to be required to bring a Palestinian state into existence, a Palestinian state with its capital in East Jerusalem.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The gentleman on the right, I want to get a bit more from the audience and then we'll come back.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for Mr. Tarazi. Why won't rich Arab countries help Palestinians refugees financially, why are they living in such bad conditions?
MICHAEL TARAZI
They are actually helping them. I mean, the United Arab Emirates I think are spending $100 million in Gaza to recreate an entire city, for housing for Palestinian refugees in Gaza, so I don't know what the basis of your question refers to.
HUSSEIN IBISH
$100 million?
MICHAEL TARAZI
I think it's approx 100 million.
HUSSEIN IBISH
$100 million?
MICHAEL TARAZI
Perhaps less, I'm sorry, I mean, I don't know the exact amount. They're spending a lot, they're spending more than a million let's say. I mean, they're spending money.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Billions, we need billions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who's 'we', are you Palestinian now or ...
HUSSEIN IBISH
No, I'm saying in order to achieve the result that we all agree on.
MICHAEL TARAZI
But I don't know the basis of your question. They are actually sending large sums of money.
AHMED MAHER
I would agree with Mr. Ibish's description of what the role of the Arab countries should be, helping the Palestinians realise the conditions to create their own state. This is exactly what we've been trying to do. That is why it is preposterous to hear somebody say that Egypt is playing the role of policemen to the Israelis, this is absolute nonsense. I mean, what we are trying to do is help the Palestinians in Gaza build their authority and re-affirm the authority of the national Palestinian state.
GHADA KARMI
Why is the Egyptian army policing the Gaza border?
AHMED MAHER
We are not playing the role of policeman. This is not only outrageous, it is preposterous. It's not true.
GHADA KARMI
But you don't police any borders normally.
AHMED MAHER
We are not playing the role, we are sitting on the borders between Palestinians and Egyptians, no Israelis are involved in this thing.
GHADA KARMI
Well, why are you putting your army on the border?
AHMED MAHER
We have the right to defend our borders, I mean, this is very clear.
GHADA KARMI
From whom? From the Palestinians?
AHMED MAHER
I mean, the borders with any country, you defend them.
GHADA KARMI
From the Palestinians? Or are you actually there to do Israel's dirty work for them?
TIM SEBASTIAN
The lady in the fourth row there please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is directed to the people for the motion. You say that the Arab governments have failed them, but maybe the Palestinians are asking too much of the Arab governments.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ghada Karmi, would you like to answer this?
GHADA KARMI
I understand that question, you know, because I actually referred to it in my statement. Yes, I think it may be asking too much of them for the reason that I tried to say, which is that the Arab governments are caught in a trap. They depend on American favour, I cannot stress this too much, and if they challenge Israel and really fight Israel, which is what we need. We don't need money, we need somebody to fight our enemy, to help us. They can't fight Israel because they know that they will incur American anger, and they cannot afford to do that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you happy with that answer?
GHADA KARMI
So in that sense, you're right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you happy with that answer?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But maybe you're asking the Arab governments to risk too much, to risk relations with other countries maybe for the Palestinians.
HUSSEIN IBISH
For the Lebanese state to treat the Palestinians living in Lebanon as full human beings .. that is not asking too much.
GHADA KARMI
That's not the question.
HUSSEIN IBISH
No, no, it goes to the question. Are we asking too much, that's the question.
GHADA KARMI
She asked me, are we asking too much? I gave her a very honest answer, because we on this side are actually speaking very honestly, we're not playing games.
HUSSEIN IBISH
And let me say, we're not in full agreement here. I take a slightly different view than Ghada does. I want two things that are not asking too much and that are not going to bring Arab states into conflict with the United States. One is, treat the Palestinians who live in your countries decently, that the United States is not going to object to. There would be no problem if Lebanon stops abusing Palestinians in Lebanon and restricting them and keeping them in these miserable conditions. Number 2, help the Palestinians to develop a plausible, serious, realistic national strategy for liberation and move away from this horrible rhetoric about steadfastness and martyrdom, this nationalistic rubbish.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK, we've covered that.
AHMED MAHER
I mean, this is past history.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Oh no, it's not. Don't you read the paper?
AHMED MAHER
I mean, what they should do is to help Palestinians in a negotiating process to regain their rights. What he is talking about is old history.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady in the first row please, can we take your question?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Dr. Ibish, since I am Lebanese and I want to support the Palestinian cause, you mentioned four or five times the abuse of the Palestinians in Lebanon.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Yes.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, it is a shameful point, but you never mentioned that the Lebanese were supporting the Palestinian cause. No, Lebanon had faith, and I think are still paying for the Palestinians.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Yes, oh yes, I did mention it. Excuse me, I did mention it. I mentioned it in response to the Ambassador. He talked about Egypt, I mentioned '78 and '82 and I would agree with you, the Lebanese have paid a heavy price, more actually. Let me say that the integrity and the future of the Lebanese state has been called in question on a number of occasions, so the Lebanese have paid a very high price, much more than most of the Arab societies. At the same time, the treatment of the Palestinians in Lebanon isn't brilliant, both are true.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Let's have some questions please. The lady towards the top there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is directed at Mr. Tarazi. He says that the Arab governments aren't to blame just because they didn't start the damage. Do we think that Arab governments, just by observing, are increasing the damage that is happening in Palestine? I mean, just watching Palestinians being slaughtered every day, that is just increasing the damage that's happening in Palestine?
MICHAEL TARAZI
No, I'm not saying that they shouldn't do something, but I'm simply saying that they shouldn't be held to a higher standard than everybody else. I think the greater damage is done by powers that actually have an ability to do something, like the United States and the European Union that could withhold aid to Israel, they could impose sanctions. What sanctions are the Arab world going to impose on Israel? They don't have trading with them to begin with, so I'm not saying they're excused from helping out, but not to impose upon them.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But even if it's a boycott. Bahrain has just lifted the boycott against Israel.
MICHAEL TARAZI
But no, the Palestinian Authority doesn't oppose relations with Israel. The Palestinian Authority ...
HUSSEIN IBISH
But helping the Palestinians doesn't necessarily mean attacking Israel. Look at Gaza. The Palestinians have just been handed an almost impossible situation. At the same time there's an incredible windfall of new revenue in oil exporting states. Where are the billions flowing into Gaza? 100 million? I'm sorry, that is really peanuts. What's required is at least $2-3 billion a year, and you know it and it really should not be a problem ...
MICHAEL TARAZI
So they should be economically dependent on the Arab world? That's right, you're helping the Palestinians.
HUSSEIN IBISH
You just mentioned the aid that the West gives to Israel, and I think it is perfectly reasonable for a people, by the way a people who've been attacked and traumatised like this and who are in the state the Palestinians are, to expect and receive aid to develop their society, and if you think that's demeaning, I can't help you, I'm sorry.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you very much. Could we take the question from the lady up there in white.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is for Mr. Tarazi as well. So you object to this notion of sort of brown people being held responsible to solidarity, which is why you object to this notion of Arab governments being held responsible? So on what basis do you think then that nations should be held responsible, is it per capita or is it by political systems or ...
MICHAEL TARAZI
On the basis of being human beings, not on the basis of being a certain tribe.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But isn't that just a little bit idealistic?
MICHAEL TARAZI
Well, not necessarily.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Are we asking that all governments based on the notion of common humanity should come forth and help Palestinians?
MICHAEL TARAZI
Yes. That's what the universal declaration of human rights is all about, is declaring a common humanity, and that's why we have international laws and treaties that are signed by all governments, regardless of the ethnicity.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
And so you would rather see the motion of this house be: 'Have all governments failed the Palestinians?' is that right?
MICHAEL TARAZI
That's right, yes, has the international community failed the Palestinians, that's a very different question. I resent the idea that we're imposing upon Arabs a greater sentiment.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
So you don't think there's any argument for Arab solidarity.
MICHAEL TARAZI
I think a rather strenuous, perhaps even a racist one perhaps.
HUSSEIN IBISH
But why would there be a Palestinian identity that would confer upon you particular responsibilities, but not an Arab identity that would confer upon you particular responsibilities. You're picking and choosing.
MICHAEL TARAZI
There isn't.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Oh, there isn't a Palestinian identity?
MICHAEL TARAZI
That's a nationalist identity but it's not based on ethnicity. As you know, we have Palestinians who are different ethnicities and different religions.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Right, you want to pick and choose then. So certain ethnicities, according to you ....
MICHAEL TARAZI
No.
HUSSEIN IBISH
... a Palestinian identity is a real and important thing, but an Arab identity is irrelevant. That's silly.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Nationalism and ethnicity are two different things.
HUSSEIN IBISH
All these things have an effect.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, we've made the point. Can I move please to the gentleman sitting in the fifth row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
In 1977, peace negotiations were held between Israel and Egypt in the luxurious Mena House Hotel in Cairo. When a Palestinian delegation was invited to attend to discuss the Palestinian situation no-one showed up. Flags were placed but the offer was snubbed, in my opinion a golden opportunity was squandered. The justification for that sort of stance by Yasser Arafat was that President Sadat was betraying the Palestinians by merely sitting at the same table with Israeli officials. I mean, what is your response ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I ask Ghada Karmi to take that question?
GHADA KARMI
In Camp David?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
It was a pretext for the Camp David negotiations.
GHADA KARMI
You are talking about Egypt, you want to bring Egypt in, and Israel. Look, the problem was that Egypt was negotiating a deal with Israel, in which there was an unequal emphasis on the Palestinian issue. Now the Palestinians had a view that they should themselves be able to represent themselves, and that's been a problem all along for the Palestinians, other people always speak for them, they negotiate on their behalf. They're never allowed to actually be fully grown-up adults, and the problem with Egypt representing the Palestinians and everybody else representing the Palestinians is the Palestinians never get to put their own point of view in a free context, not within the limitations set by Sadat or Egypt or whoever it might be. That was one of the reasons why he didn't attend.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very quickly, very quickly please.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Number 1, the Israelis were not prepared to talk to the PLO at the time. Number 2, the rest of the Arab regime supported Arafat's decision which I agree was a mistake, but it was heavily supported by the Arab governments generally, so your point goes to our side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Question to this side of the room please. We need to put some pressure on Ahmed Maher who's been silent for a while. Gentleman up there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I do actually have a question for Ghada Karmi. Well actually let's imagine that we are in a perfect world and in this room we have the rulers of the Arab countries, and as you say that the Arab governments, they do not really protect the Palestinian cause, what would you request from them now? What you do suggest? And maybe I have another question. I do know that you support the idea that the Palestinians and Israelis can live in one single country. Can you elaborate?
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you want from the Arab regimes?
GHADA KARMI
Well, I want from them something which would be very revolutionary. I want them to recognise that their long-term future lies best in creating a representative government for their own people, in actually being democratic in the true sense, in working with their people rather than against them, and if they were to do that, that would be the start of the right path towards liberation for themselves and for the Palestinians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Maher, would you like to comment on that? The question was, what would the Palestinians like from Arab governments. Ghada Karmi says they'd like to have a representative government. Any chance of that in Egypt?
AHMED MAHER
Of course. I mean, you have seen the evolution in Egypt, you have seen what happened and you've seen the elections.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Selections.
GHADA KARMI
23%.
AHMED MAHER
No, it's an election.
GHADA KARMI
23%.
AHMED MAHER
But this is irrelevant to what we are talking about. What we are talking about is a situation where Egypt, under all regimes, has helped the Palestinian people as much as it could, that it has, you mentioned the Camp David negotiations. We did negotiate on behalf, without having been asked by the Palestinians, a very good agreement for the Palestinians which in fact was later accepted by the Palestinians. Egypt has done its role in war, in peace, in helping the Palestinians and I think it is very unfair to come and say, 'Why didn't we help the Palestinians?'
HUSSEIN IBISH
This is utter nonsense.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mr. Ibish, do you want to come back on that?
HUSSEIN IBISH
Three things, three things that they can do. One, stop exploiting the issue in a populist and demagogic way. Number two, treat the Palestinians in your own country better and properly, and number three, give the requisite aid to President Abbas in the form of billions, not millions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, all right, lady in the front row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is, Mr Ahmed, after all these agreements and Camp David negotiations, and Egypt has a very long history with Israel, how can you define very clearly your relation, I mean, the Egyptian government's relation with Israel now, and how does this relationship help Palestinians?
AHMED MAHER
I think our relations with Israel are relations that are geared in particular to helping solve the Palestinian problem. There is no country that has been more involved in attempts to solve the Palestinian problem, and what we are trying to do now is help the Palestinians recuperate their land. It is not by criticising the policies of Egypt that you will achieve what the Palestinians want, because in fact the Palestinian Authority, which is representative of the Palestinian people, appreciates the efforts of Egypt, supports the efforts of Egypt. And the impediment to an agreement is Israel, so our friends here should address the position of Israel and those who support Israel, not those who are trying to help the Palestinians, have achieved results for the Palestinians, will continue to achieve results for the Palestinians. I am very astonished at a position taken that pretends not to recognise all the efforts that Egypt has achieved, Arab countries have been exerting. And the real impediment is those who do not recognise these efforts and try to make it appear as if the Arab countries are not trying to help the Palestinian cause.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just return to the questioner for a moment.
AHMED MAHER
They are more Palestinians than the Palestinian Authority itself, it's an amazing situation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I ask if you were happy with that answer? Do you accept what Ahmed Maher said?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Actually, I agree with you, but I don't think the Egyptian government did the best they could. I mean, they can do a lot, much better than they did.
MICHAEL TARAZI
I'm always wondering, we always criticise, but what more do we want the Arabs to do that they haven't already done?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let her answer, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Actually, sir, we know that Egypt and Israel have a lot of, what can I say, a relation but, it's like behind the scenes, like you announce something in the media and you will do another things.
AHMED MAHER
There are no relations behind the scene between Egypt and Israel. Our position is very clear, it is known to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are very grateful for the efforts that we are exerting.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It would be one of the few times in history that countries didn't have back-door relations, wouldn't it.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Yeah, if you don't have behind-the-scene relations, you don't have a diplomatic corps, I mean, you're paying people for doing nothing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ghada Karmi, you wanted to ...
GHADA KARMI
Listen, I can't believe I'm hearing this. This lady's question is excellent. Do you know that before I came here tonight, do you know what's happening in Gaza, have you looked at your televisions? Do you know how the Israelis are bombing the hell out of Gaza? Why does Egypt maintain relations with a state that does this to the Palestinians?
AHMED MAHER
These relations have been helpful to the Palestinians all along.
GHADA KARMI
Why don't you show them ...
AHMED MAHER
They allowed us to play a quantitative role.
GHADA KARMI
She asked you what Egypt could do. One thing it could do is show that it does not agree with the way Israel behaves at the very least, by breaking off relations. It's never dared to do that.
AHMED MAHER
No, no, it's not a question of breaking up relations.
GHADA KARMI
It's never dared to do that.
AHMED MAHER
These relations have been used to serve the Palestinian cause, and don't be, I mean, demagogic by saying these things. You know that this relation is helping the Palestinians...
GHADA KARMI
Are they though?
AHMED MAHER
... we're trying to promote the cause of the Palestinians ...
GHADA KARMI
By being friends with Israel?
AHMED MAHER
... and it is very easy for you to be here and say these things that are not true.
MICHAEL TARAZI
I really have to take exception to this idea, because it's a throw-back to the 1960's. You want them to isolate Israel again, that didn't help us, Ghada, it didn't help us, so let's start thinking in a different way, and secondly the Palestinians have relations with Israel and this is another typical example of how you are blaming Arabs because they're not more pro-Palestinian than Palestinian official policy itself, and that is ungrateful and wrong.
GHADA KARMI
Allow me to, I need to clear this once and for all, I need to clarity this because you're going to hear this many times.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Last point on this question.
GHADA KARMI
The Palestinians are obliged to deal with Israel because they are occupied by it.
MICHAEL TARAZI
No we're not. We can refuse to negotiate.
GHADA KARMI
The others are not obliged to do this, and Egypt, which is a great country, is not obliged to maintain ...
AHMED MAHER
I say that Egypt is helping Palestinians much more than what you are saying, than anyone else, and this is true.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, we're going to move on to the next question. Gentleman in the front row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much. I think we are missing a point here, that when the Israeli/ Palestinian or Israeli/Arab conflict started and everybody said that the international community has failed the Palestinians, the international community was looking at Israel as a state and as an existence, but then the Arab community at that time were not looking at Israel as in existence, so either take it all or forget it, and now, when every country started talking to Israel and started their own diplomatic relationship with Israel, the international community is putting a lot of pressure on Israel to start negotiating with the Palestinians. So I think the Arab countries have done a lot of work, but it was done in a completely different format that had failed, because the international community at that time was not with us, it was against the Arab community, so I would like to hear Mr. Maher or Mr. Tarazi on this and then your comments.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Maher.
AHMED MAHER
We are using this relationship to promote the Palestinian cause, and I think Egypt has played a very positive role, and we see that despite the fact that some people do not want to understand the role that Egypt is playing, we have been very helpful to the Palestinians, to the Palestinian cause, and I think our efforts have not been successful but at least they have been much more successful than the efforts of those who sit there and say, 'What are you doing there, this is wrong,' and just pass judgments on things that they do not know of. What Egypt has done and continues to do with the Palestinians, for the Palestinians, with the Palestinians, is something that is extremely positive in a very difficult situation, and we know that the Israelis are resisting recognising all the rights of the Palestinians, but I think that the role that Egypt has played is and will continue to be a positive role on the side of the Palestinians. It's easy to speak, but doing things on the terrain is much more important.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think you've said that many times. Lady in the centre please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
All right. I want to ask, Mr. Michael Tarazi said that expecting the Arab governments to help Palestinians is like expecting them to clear up a mess they hadn't started, but then why is it that countries like Kuwait choose to support the US in Hurricane Katrina, a mess they hadn't started, and not help the Palestinians?
MICHAEL TARAZI
No, I agree. I'm not saying that they shouldn't, as human beings, do this. My problem is simply that we shouldn't impose upon these people a greater standard for involvement than we would to non-Arabs as well, because in my view this is a human disaster, not an Arab disaster, and we should all as humans, be concerned about this. I'm not saying they shouldn't with Hurricane Katrina.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Do you think the mountaineers of Bolivia have the same interest as people from Morocco to Iraq in the Palestinian situation? I mean, I understand, your argument about the great and the powerful perhaps is important and I agreed in the beginning that the international community and the United States are certainly, you know, culpable in this situation, but I think it can't be absolutely universal, this is silly. The African peoples felt a particular responsibility to address the apartheid regime in South Africa. In all of these colonial situations, peoples whose identity are close to the victims, this comes up. I really don't expect the villagers of some mountaintop in Bolivia to have the same attitude on this ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me take a question from the lady in the second row, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The saying goes, 'Keep your friends close but enemies closer.' I don't see how you can find a resolution for the Palestinian people by just cutting all your relations with the Israelis, by boycotting them, you know. First of all if you're just looking in the Arab world, we don't make half the population. If you're looking in the Muslim world, that doesn't just incorporate the Arab world. Second of all, you talk about self-criticism. If there's anybody in the Arab government that we need to criticise, it's the PLO. Had they been clear and transparent like the States, for example, the Arab countries would have donated a lot of money. The PLO, who do you go to and where do you go?
GHADA KARMI
I keep hearing this from various people. The PLO and the Palestinian leadership and many things about the Palestinians can be criticised, there is no doubt about it. Nevertheless we are here to discuss the role of Arab governments, and in reality you talk about not isolating Israel. You know, I have to tell you, I disagree with you. If the policy had been to isolate Israel wholeheartedly and properly from the beginning, and it had continued, it would have been highly effective. I think we need to agree that Israel is not the friend of the Arab people, not just the Palestinians, it's not a friend of the Arabs. We need to understand this. Therefore we have to actually find the best method to deal with it. Now, you may think it's through having relations. I happen to think that if you can isolate it, but isolate it not half-heartedly as the Arabs have done, Arab government boycotts in reality, we don't have relations with Israel, but behind the scenes we have all kinds of secret meetings. If you do things properly, then you actually achieve results. How would it be if the Africans had recognised apartheid as legitimate, apartheid?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You don't look very happy with the reply you've received.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
How do you isolate any country in a globalised world, in a globalised economy, how do you do it? I mean, if you have a way, please tell us.
GHADA KARMI
Well, you know about South Africa, you know how South Africa, sanctions worked against South Africa. You know how it was isolated, nobody was allowed to deal with, and nobody did deal with it, in the end, culturally or in sports. Of course you can do it, of course you can do it, but my point is that it has never been properly attempted by Arab governments because frankly they're too scared to do something effective against Israel.
MICHAEL TARAZI
If I can comment, I actually agree with Ghada, that total isolation is possible. Look at Iraq, how it was isolated before the war in terms of economic sanctions and all sorts of other issues. You can take action. My problem with Ghada's argument is simply that if the Palestinians themselves had not called for an isolation of Israel, why do we continue to blame the Arab governments if they hadn't been more pro-Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves? If the Palestinian Authority said, 'We're demanding a total boycott and isolation,' and the other Arabs said, 'No, we're not going to help you with that,' then Ghada would have an argument and I'd be on her side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hussein Ibish, one very quick point.
HUSSEIN IBISH
There was a time when that was the case. I agree with the presumption of your question. I think I don't blame Arab states for having pragmatic relations with Israel. I blame them for not encouraging the Palestinians to develop their own pragmatic strategies.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, gentleman who's been waiting up there a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for Ghada Karmi, so you ask us to isolate, the entire Arab World, to re-isolate itself from Israel, and then again isolate itself from the only existing super power in the world. How risky is that for us?
GHADA KARMI
Well, of course it's risky, of course, of course. It's too late now, it's too late, and of course my point ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oh, you're not asking for that now.
GHADA KARMI
No, I was answering her, that actually isolating Israel would have been extremely successful if it had been done consistently and properly from the beginning. But I actually take your point, that is one of the things that is very depressing about all this, the fact is, you have got this one super power, the fact is that the Arabs made a strategic decision not to challenge either Israel or the super power, to remain, for Arab governments to remain in power by virtue of American favour and American support very often, not all of them but very often, they made that decision. As a result, once you've got that sort of relationship, there is actually, you have no room for manoeuvre. You have to obey orders.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, lady in the middle. You've been waiting very patiently.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I have a question for Mr. Maher. You mentioned earlier that you want the Palestinians to stay in Palestine instead of going to different countries like Egypt to study or to live there. However, did you not consider that perhaps they were really forced to leave their homes, that, you know, they had nowhere else to go and that by refusing to let them into your country, you're basically hurting them instead of helping, that's another way you failed them?
AHMED MAHER
I believe that the Palestinians should be allowed to return to Palestine, otherwise you are negating the whole problem, you are just striking the whole problem, Palestinians are to be allowed to live in Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That wasn't the question really. The question was whether they should live decent lives when they're in countries such as yours.
AHMED MAHER
I believe they live decent lives in a country like Egypt, and you can ask them, I mean, don't ask me, ask them. The Palestinians are living a decent life in Egypt. They're allowed to live with their brothers and we are helping them.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
However earlier you said that you think that they should be living in Palestine, that the Palestinians should remain living in Palestine.
AHMED MAHER
Well, I believe that if they want to go back to Palestine and this is what they want, they should be allowed to go back to Palestine, but I don't understand the gist of your question. I mean, you want us to allow the Palestinians to live in Egypt and not to reclaim their own territory, their own land, so that we achieve the goals of the Israelis to get all the Palestinians out of Israel? This is a very difficult question, and the choice is the Palestinians' and the Palestinians want to go back to their land.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You want to come back in.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Even if all the Palestinians went back to Palestine, there's still a war going on, there are still going to be killings. At least the people that can get out or that can go and study or live elsewhere, they should at least have the equal opportunity to have whatever they need wherever they need it, like Lebanon for example. People in these countries don't have a chance to live normal lives, nor can they go back to Palestine and live normal lives, so don't you think the Arab countries owe it to the Palestinians to give them equal opportunities to live?
MICHAEL TARAZI
Why Arab, why not anybody else.
HUSSEIN IBISH
But that's what they are.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Why Arab, why not anybody else. Why does Egypt do something and not the United States or not Norway or not Britain that caused the problem for me.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to answer Dr. Tarazi's point. Do you want to answer his point?
MICHAEL TARAZI
I actually, I agree with you. I think people, refugees, should be taken in but my question is, why do you hold Egypt more accountable for me when Egypt wasn't the cause of this problem?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
It's just, I'm just asking the question because he brought it up. However, in the United States you have equal opportunities. How come we don't have ...
MICHAEL TARAZI
Refugees are allowed to go to the United States and get citizenship?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, I think Palestinians.
MICHAEL TARAZI
When they're allowed in.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
When they're allowed in, so it's the responsibility of the whole world. It was directed to Egypt because they brought it up.
MICHAEL TARAZI
I agree but it's the responsibility of the world.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, I'm going to take another question from the gentleman up there who's been waiting a long time. You, sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is directed to Mr. Tarazi. Isn't the fact that Palestinians have been living in refugee camps for over 50 years now enough evidence to see that the Arab governments have let down the Palestinians?
MICHAEL TARAZI
No. First of all, Jordan I think is the only country in the world that has ever taken in such huge numbers of refugees from neighbouring countries and given them equal rights. I don't think you're going to find any place in the world that opens its doors up to refugees and automatically grants them citizenship. It doesn't happen anywhere, but it did happen in the Arab world with respect to Jordan. I'm not saying that Lebanon and Syria are justified in their treatment, but to extrapolate from Lebanon and Syria, and then the say the entire Arab world had failed the Palestinians I think is simply unfair.
GHADA KARMI
But Michael knows very well what the questioner's talking about. He's saying the Arab states didn't do anything in all those years to try and get those people, either to treat them decently or to allow them to return to their country. They never did either.
MICHAEL TARAZI
In Jordan they are not treated decently?
GHADA KARMI
I'll tell you about Jordan. Jordan took in the Palestinians for a very good reason, and they gave them citizenship for a good reason and it was nothing to do, or very little to do with being generous and humane. It was to do with building up Jordan, which is a tiny country with a tiny population, and I'm afraid it's cynical but it's true.
MICHAEL TARAZI
And where else in the world have you seen a country like Jordan take in a majority of refugees of the population?
GHADA KARMI
Because there's no other country I can think of like Jordan, which had virtually a miniscule population and was desperate to form itself as a state.
MICHAEL TARAZI
What country has taken in that many refugees, period.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Look, it's right, Jordan deserves some praise in this context, Egypt some praise in some other contexts that you mentioned before. No-one is sitting here saying no Arabs ...
AHMED MAHER
And Kuwait.
HUSSEIN IBISH
The history of Kuwait on this score is not one to be trumpeting. Well, there was this minor matter of 1991/92 so, but let's concentrate on the big picture. The bottom line is, I think there's a lot of truth to what the questioner said and certainly a number of Arab states and a good deal of the Palestinian leadership over the years had preferred, for the public logic being the one the Foreign Minister here has mentioned, not to keep people in refugee camps. That would be playing into the hands of Israel. But I think there was a calculation, that keeping people poor and miserable and angry would somehow be a good thing for the movement, and I don't think that's been the case, and if you don't think this was a matter of policy, both Arab and Palestinian, you are very naïve.
MICHAEL TARAZI
You're taking Lebanon and Syria and you're whitewashing the entire Arab world and you're guilty of the same kind of generalisation that the Israelis are.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, all right, don't let's repeat that. Lady in white, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Mr. Michael Tarazi, you keep saying that the Arab governments are not the only ones to blame, but the question is whether they are to blame or not.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Right, and I agree with you, and so if you take a look at what they were able to do, which was the second point in my discussion, in terms of military capacity, what they actually tried to do economically with the oil embargo, in terms of diplomatically recently in 2002, to say that they haven't done anything and they have failed the Palestinians, I mean, let's be serious, the Arabs are not a military super power, so given the limitations that we had to work on, let's not pretend we're super heroes, given the limitations that we had, we have done the best we can.
HUSSEIN IBISH
Oh, please.
MICHAEL TARAZI
And to blame them for that I think is very unfair.
HUSSEIN IBISH
This is the best. But the oil embargo, perfect yes. That's a case in point. It achieved absolutely nothing except making most ordinary Americans believe that Arabs or Saudis and people in the Gulf were criminals who were picking them off, did zero to help the Palestinians and actually covered up the fact that US oil companies were responsible for raising the price of oil. It was insane.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. Gentleman in the fifth row up there.
HUSSEIN IBISH
I mean, if you want a failure, that's the grandest failure you could ever imagine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much. Gentleman in the fifth row, you had your hand up sir. Yes.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Frankly, I don't understand why diplomatic inroads are being so neglected. I mean, when we call for isolation and whatnot, that's a prelude to war. I mean, you cited Iraq being in isolation, but you see what's happened there, and then you expect to isolate Israel, a nuclear power, and hope that it just reacts well. I don't see how that, in the entire Arab world, only two countries, Jordan and Egypt, making diplomatic gestures towards Israel, both heavily dependant on US foreign aid, can be cited as credible examples when the rest of the Arab world should follow suit.
GHADA KARMI
Look, it's too late, I said it's too late actually now to isolate it, it's too late, the opportunity was missed, but if you break off relations or if you withdraw your ambassadors it actually sends a signal. It sends a signal to the Palestinians who are dying under Israeli bombs that actually somebody cares about them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're saying it's too late but you still want a signal sent.
GHADA KARMI
No, no, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Which is it?
GHADA KARMI
I'm talking about an isolation of Israel, but two issues you talked about; isolating Israel and the other was cutting off relations. Cutting off diplomatic relations, it actually does send a signal which I think is quite important.
HUSSEIN IBISH
It is much better to empower the Palestinians who have an elected leadership that for the first time in a long time it's pursuing a plausible diplomatic strategy. They need aid in the form of billions and the present-day scandal, the scandal of de jour, the scandal of the moment, is that billions are not flowing into Gaza right now to support President Abbas and he needs the support and that is what is necessary.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We have time for one quick question. You sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is directed at Mr. Tarazi. You've mentioned numerous times that the Americans and the Israelis are allies, and there's no country in the EU that wants to be in a position where they're opposing the US, so who is it that the Palestinians can depend on other than the Arab world? Who can the Palestinians turn to other than the Arabs, their neighbours.
MICHAEL TARAZI
I actually didn't say that.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
You said that the Americans and the Israelis are allies.
MICHAEL TARAZI
Yes, Americans and Israelis ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So he's asking if the Palestinians can't turn to Arab countries, who can they turn to.
MICHAEL TARAZI
I think they should be turning to everybody. They should be able to turn to Arab countries but not hold them to a higher standard, that's my only point. I'm not saying Arabs are absolved of any responsibility, but I as a Palestinian would focus my efforts on the very people that could actually make a difference with respect to Israel. The EU is the largest trading partner with Israel. If they just bothered to enforce their own free trade agreement with respect to the settlement products, that we have an economic impact along the lines that Ghada's talking about and shouldn't require a whole lot of initiative on behalf of the EU.
HUSSEIN IBISH
The States are not powerless.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
You don't think that the United States would respond to that by for example cutting off communication?
MICHAEL TARAZI
Well, that's right and that's what Ghada is saying with respect to the Arabs as well, they should be doing it to everybody, so our real goal should be addressed towards the United States. We should be focusing on the US rather than on blaming the Arabs for it.

TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we've run out of time on the questions, and we come to that point in the proceedings where we're going to vote on the motion that 'This House believes that Arab governments have failed the Palestinians. Would you please take your voting devices, you press 1 if you are for the motion, you press 2 if you are against and would you please do that now. You only need to press once, you don't continually need to press, just once and we'll get the results very quickly.
The vote is coming up now. You will see it any moment now, and it looks as if the motion has been carried resoundedly: 72.3 for the motion and 27.7 against. It's been carried decisively. Thank you very much.