This House believes Hezbollah had no right to fight a war on Lebanon's behalf

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to this, the start of our third series of Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. Over the summer, Southern Lebanon and Northern Israel became the world's latest war zone. Lebanon suffered by far the heaviest casualties, counting its dead in the hundreds with hundreds of thousands displaced from their homes and thousands of those homes destroyed. For more than a month, Israeli forces battled with Hezbollah fighters. But who asked Hezbollah to fight for Lebanon, and are they saviours as many in the Arab world believe, or terrorists, as labelled by the West. Well, our motion tonight goes to the heart of the issue, 'This House believes that Hezbollah had no right to fight a war on Lebanon's behalf.' Speaking for the motion, Oussama Safa, he's General Director of the Lebanese Centre of Policy Studies, a think-tank based in Beirut. He's also a founding member of the Lebanon Conflict Resolution Network and has been active in helping to develop civil society programmes. With him, Hisham Kassem, Vice-Chairman and CEO of Al Masry Al Youm, the first independent daily newspaper in Egypt since 1954. He's Chairman of the Egyptian Organisation for Human Rights and Vice-President of Foreign Affairs for the Al Ghad Party. Against the motion, Mona Makram-Ebeid, a former member of the Egyptian parliament, now Professor of Political Science at the American University in Cairo. She also lectures in politics at the Middle East Diplomatic Institute at the Foreign Ministry. With her is Ibrahim el Moussaoui, Head of Political Programmes at Hezbollah's al Manar TV in Lebanon. He's been both a teacher and a journalist, and has lectured widely in Europe. Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. Now let me please ask Oussama Safa to speak first for the motion.

OUSSAMA SAFA
Thank you, Tim. I am for the motion, absolutely I am for the motion because, well, for several reasons. First, this has brought for us dire consequences. I am coming today from a fractured country, really literally a fractured country that was barely back on its feet after 16 years of post-war recovery and now we're back to square one. This has been a major fact of instability for us. This is extremely unsettling for me and for millions of other Lebanese, really truly, to be able to see military surprises, to be able to be caught off guard as we were on July 12th. We were caught off guard by the military operation that we absolutely had nothing to do with, that has brought us really crippling consequences. The Lebanese are tired of war; the Lebanese are tired of any military surprise. I also support this motion, Tim, because I think what has happened has proved any military decision outside state legitimacy is absolutely ineffective. It brings no deterrence, it brings no protection, it only brings havoc and destruction. I do come from South Lebanon myself and I have lived throughout all the Israeli wars on Lebanon. I have never seen so much mayhem and such destruction, villages on end are ruined. In clear conscience, I cannot but support this motion. This has been an extremely tragic situation. There is so much rebuilding to re-do, unfortunately re-do. We were on a fast-track course of recovery, and then we were rudely interrupted, millions of plans have been interrupted. You ask the Lebanese on the street today, "Are you better off than you were on July 12th?" The question is definitely no. There has been extremely severe consequences, extremely dire consequences that we still need to live with, we still need to find ways to cope with, if we can try. The cost for all of this has been way further than we are able to pay or we are able to cope with, and this is extremely dangerous for me and for my countrymen. I think I would really like to leave the audience with a couple of sobering questions. We are faced with two choices. Does Lebanon have to continue to be a fortress of resistance, a fortress of fighting that will only bring havoc and destruction that will keep it poor, will keep it disintegrated, or should Lebanon be a liberal, open, and a culturally diverse country and a pluralist country? Do the Lebanese have the right to dream? Do the Lebanese have the right to have ambitions, to have future goals without these goals being interrupted? Why should the Lebanese live in Qatar and elsewhere in any other country except in Lebanon? Why should they feel so disconnected from Lebanon as this latest war has made them feel? All of these are really major questions that right now we're trying to grapple with.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oussama Safa, thank you very much. The blame for this bleak picture that you've painted of your home country you lay at the door of Hezbollah.
OUSSAMA SAFA
It's not just a question of blame, I mean ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you say they had no right, you support that motion, they had no right to fight a war on Lebanon's behalf.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you were taken off guard?
OUSSAMA SAFA
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You knew that they were building up their stockpile of weapons for years.
OUSSAMA SAFA
They were at the same time part of a national dialogue.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you knew the weapons were being built up?
OUSSAMA SAFA
The weapons were there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What did you think they were for?
OUSSAMA SAFA
The State of Lebanon was weak enough to not be able to do anything about it. They were trying to address this through a dialogue, through a national political dialogue that looked as if it was going well, as if it was going somewhere, and then suddenly there was some secretive planning, there was some planning with absolutely no consultation with anyone, and we were found in this situation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Did they renounce their core belief that Israel had to be liquidated? They never did, did they? They kept building up their weapons; you knew that the weapons were not for decoration, the weapons would one day be used. You had to know this, and the rest of Lebanon acquiesced in it.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Absolutely. The dream was that these weapons could be put into a defence strategy for the good of Lebanon.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Iranian weapons to be used as part of your, you're not serious..
OUSSAMA SAFA
The whole concept, the weapons to be part of a defence strategy. However, again we were caught off guard, we had planned as if we were going east and then we suddenly found ourselves going in the opposite direction completely, and that is really unsettling for the political situation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But it's a bit late to cry about Hezbollah actions now. Where were the anti-Hezbollah demonstrations in Lebanon? There weren't any, were there? Where were the protests about the build-up of weapons? There weren't any.
OUSSAMA SAFA
It was not an anti-Hezbollah demonstration. There were efforts to bring in Hezbollah as a full political activist, as a legitimate political activist, but its military wing has been on the table as something to discuss, as something to negotiate and it seemed like negotiations were serious over this, but then suddenly this has happened, has really destroyed any trust that has been built before with the party, with Hezbollah, between the government.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Oussama Safa, thank you very much indeed. Now let me please call on Mona Makram-Ebeid to speak against the motion.

MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
I am certainly against this motion for the following reasons. First of all, fighting a resistance war to liberate one's occupied land is legal according to international law. What Hezbollah has done is a reaction to decades of Israeli violations of human rights, of UN resolutions and of assault and occupation. Hezbollah is not only an armed resistance movement, but it is also a political movement with two ministers in government, with the largest constituency in parliament, and it has a grass roots organisation that nobody can rival today. It had informed the government at a ministerial meeting last year that it was serious about the prisoners' release. This was not hidden from anywhere. It is not the first time that Israeli soldiers have been captured. Both Israel and Hezbollah had negotiations in the past as recently as the year 2004. Hezbollah has been pressing the issue of Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails, along with Lebanon's claim to the Israeli-occupied Shebaa Farms. Both these claims were supported by the Lebanese government. Furthermore, this is not only a Lebanese issue but it is a regional issue. Hezbollah was not acting only on Lebanon's behalf, but its influence has grown to become a symbol of resistance, an awakening in the Arab and Islamic world. Arab governments such as Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, which started to blame Hezbollah for creating the crisis that led to war, had to shift their position in the wake of public anger in their countries about the Israeli bombing. And even as it faces criticism in Lebanon, Hezbollah has gained millions of supporters in the Middle East. People in the region have compared its steadfastness with the swift defeat of three large Arab armies in the Six-Day War in 1967. Nasrallah has become a household name. In my own country, Egypt, where Hezbollah's action garnered 75% of approval in a recent public opinion survey. You can see The Washington Post on the 23rd August for that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mona Makram-Ebeid, thank you very much. So being a household name is sufficient licence to go to war, and then incidentally bungle it?
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
It did not bungle it; it came to a draw with Israel. It's the first time that an Arab force resists Israel's continued and sustained and institutionalised assault against civilian populations in the Arab world.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, we had Hassan Nasrallah almost apologising, didn't we, on August 27th ...
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
No, he was not apologising.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... saying, 'If I had known that the operation to capture the soldiers would lead to this result, we would not have carried it out.' So it was a huge miscalculation, he's admitting a miscalculation, 'We got it wrong.'
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
No, it was not at all a miscalculation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's saying he got it wrong.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
He wanted a local attack; he wanted the release of Lebanese prisoners. He did not want ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's saying he got it wrong and now you want to give him a licence to bungle at any time.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
He didn't want an escalation of war. It is Israel who has escalated the war and has seized this pretext to escalate a war that was planned beforehand and premeditated.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mona Makram-Ebeid, you would give this self-styled group of adventurers a licence to declare war on Lebanon's behalf whenever they want it and bring down destruction of that kind.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
They are not self-made adventurers.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm using Hassan Nasrallah's terms, he says, 'We in Hezbollah are adventurers.'
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
He says they're adventurers?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, 'And we have been adventurers since 1982,' his phrase.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
I never read this phrase. They are not adventurers in my opinion.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He says they are. Well, you disagree with him, that's interesting.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
They are a political movement, they are a resistance militarised movement that has grass roots organisation which we must not forget, meaning that it has 87 support of the Lebanese people, and it is today the only one that has come to the rescue of the Lebanese people, before the Lebanese government, which is a weak central government, and it is Israel that is the cause of this reaction.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Mona Makram-Ebeid, thank you very much indeed. Now let me call please on Hisham Kassem to speak for the motion.

HISHAM KASSEM
Well, Oussama has just spoken about the Lebanese perspective and I will speak about the regional perspective. To begin with, Mona Makram-Ebeid just said Hezbollah got 75% support in a poll that was carried out in Egypt. That is 25% decline from July 1st. Had you carried out that same poll on July 11th, you would have had 100% support for Hezbollah. We all have Hezbollah in mind as the liberator that did liberate the south of Lebanon. Now there is a debate, you see, so it really meant that they did lose ground, but that's the simple part, the easier part. On again July 11th, the whole world was concerned with the tragic Palestinian situation, we have eight Palestinian ministers abducted, 29 Members of Parliament, and the speaker of parliament, or the chairman of parliament was abducted later and the whole world is not paying attention because Hezbollah managed to create a tragedy far greater than the Palestinian tragedy to the point where we're forgotten, you know. I'm sure a lot of us in the past or since this broke out did forget the original tragedy and the roots of the Arab-Israeli conflict. We look at the situation internally in Israel. They've managed to shake the Olmert government. Right now that's the best choice for the Arabs, because if Olmert goes down, it's going to be Binyamin Netanyahu coming in with the Likud, and that is a government basically or a party that is saying, 'Peace for peace,' not land for peace like potentially a discredited Labour Party in Israel, or as Kadima is trying to do now. No, he's not willing to give up an inch and insists to continue to erode Palestinian territory with the settlements. Again, Hezbollah has succeeded in creating a unified Arab/European/American/Israeli position. This is unprecedented. Face it. The major three players, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan have taken up position against what they call Hezbollah's adventure, this is unprecedented. Israel always kept you at arm's length. They insisted that whatever involvement would be, unilateral, bilateral with the United States and kept Europe out. Now they're inviting Europe in because they've managed to unify the European and the American position. Now, I commend Hassan Nasrallah for the apology he made and did say that had he known he would bring about havoc and destruction on Lebanon with this operation, he would not have done so. Unfortunately I think it came three weeks at least too late. From week one, we knew this was not going to stop. All diplomacy had come to a halt and Israel unleashed its army and brought about the horrible destruction of Lebanon. He should have backtracked. The fact that he held on was really to save face. In 1945, the Japanese emperor realised that the rest of Japan is going to be destroyed, he showed statesmanship and put down his sword and now Japan is the second most powerful economy in the world. On July 12th, Hezbollah did not only kidnap two Israeli soldiers, they kidnapped Lebanese sovereignty and have failed to show any statesmanship since then.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hisham Kassem, thank you very much indeed. You think the Lebanese should sit cringing in fear of an even tougher Israeli Prime Minister, and that's why Hezbollah shouldn't act, that's a reason for Hezbollah not to act?
HISHAM KASSEM
Certainly. Look at the history of Israel and how it's dealt militarily with the Arab region, and look at the balance of power. There is nobody who is capable of standing up to Israel, and if we look from the Haganah gangs ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... but is that a glorious position? The army offered the Israelis tea, didn't they, when they came in? Was that a glorious position for the Lebanese army?
HISHAM KASSEM
It's not a glorious position; it's a position of responsibility. You do not stand up and involve your country in a confrontation where others will suffer.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But nobody was supposed to resist, no sovereign state has a duty to resist somebody who barges in through their borders?
HISHAM KASSEM
What about negotiations? Over 80-something percent of Arab occupied territory was liberated through President Sadat's initiative, through serious negotiations, that was an alternative. Shebaa is nothing in comparison in size to Sinai. Sinai is even bigger than Israel. Now, when somebody took the initiative and went out there and showed some leadership, he liberated over 80-something percent of Arab occupied territory.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You said that Hassan Nasrallah had liberated foreign powers like America and Europe, but he's actually done something for the Arabs as well. He's united the Arabs, hasn't he?
HISHAM KASSEM
I'm sorry, 'liberated'?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Unified.
HISHAM KASSEM
Yes, he's unified them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's unified the Arabs, hasn't he? He could be emperor of the Arab world tomorrow.
HISHAM KASSEM
I said earlier it used to be 100% support for him and according to Mona Makram-Ebeid, he's gone down to 75.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's not much of a drop, is it?
HISHAM KASSEM
It is a drop.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But he's the most popular man in the Arab world.
HISHAM KASSEM
Certainly.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So he's done something, he's united them.
HISHAM KASSEM
Yes, that I'm not denying.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And he's something that the Arabs have been crying out for.
HISHAM KASSEM
Well, okay, because of the failure of Arab regimes on another front, diplomacy, but when we did see the initiative taken from an Arab leader, President Sadat or King Hussein later, we did see them liberate their territory.
TIM SEBASTIAN
This view from a villager in the mountains above Beirut: 'My aluminium plant has been ravaged but we've finally lifted the heads of the Arabs. What none of the Arab leaders could do, confront Israel, one person, Hassan Nasrallah, is now doing.' Pride.
HISHAM KASSEM
Yes, certainly, but that's not ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That doesn't give them a licence, that doesn't give Hezbollah a licence to fight a war?
HISHAM KASSEM
No, certainly not. If Hezbollah wants to assume the position of statesmanship, they should show it, and sometimes you have to take difficult decisions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hisham Kassem, thank you very much indeed. Now let me please ask Ibrahim el Moussaoui to speak against the motion.

IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Let me first say that I come from a country, from Lebanon, I'm a Muslim, I'm an Arab, and I come here just to lay to the floor, to the ground, what I'm going to say now. First of all I'm against this motion because I have unshakable conviction that Hezbollah has the right to fight a war on Lebanon's behalf for the following reasons. It's one of the basic rights of any human being, of any group, of any individual, to fight for his liberty, independence, sovereignty, pride and dignity. What Hezbollah fights, it's not starting a war. You're talking about a response, you're talking about reaction, and when we talk about Hezbollah resistance here, we're talking about the question of legitimacy and the question of authorisation. I want to draw your attention that the Lebanese government, the Lebanese cabinet of Mr. Siniora that has gained the confidence of our parliament in June 2005, they submitted a ministerial statement that say in words literally, 'The resistance has the right to continue its operations against the Israeli occupation to liberate Shebaa Farms and to retrieve the Lebanese hostages in the Israeli prisons, and to act as a defence for Lebanon.' This was the ministerial statement of our government that gained the confidence of the government, of the parliament according to it. So when you talk about authorisation and whether Hezbollah has the right to do or not, you have to ask the Lebanese government, the Lebanese parliament which is representative of the Lebanese people. Again, if Hezbollah does not have the right to fight a war to defend its country, I want you to tell me who has the right to do so. We don't have an army, a mighty army. We all know now the formula and the equation in the words today: might is equal to right. United States is a superpower, they can manipulate anything, they can manipulate the United Nations even and no-one can raise a hand in order to say no, so when our classical army, and we all know that the United States has guaranteed the supremacy of the Israeli troops over all the Arab troops, in this case, people have to resort to other measures to defend themselves, and here starts the story of Hezbollah and its resistance which leads back to 1982. With the absence of an effective way to stop the Israeli aggressions and continuous massacres and atrocities and violation, I want to bring your attention to one simple thing; that you can go back and dig it down. From the year 2000 till the year 2006, the Israelis have violated our sovereignty in air and in sea and on ground more than 11,984 times, skirmishes here and there, so you're talking about a state that is always under permanent threat from the Israelis, continuous aggression, massacres, aggression, atrocities, and Israel is not waiting for Hezbollah to do any operation in order to carry out a large-scale offensive. In the year 1982, the Israelis have used the alibi and the pretext of an attempt on the life of their ambassador in London, and they started a large invasion to Lebanon, they reached to Beirut, they imposed a system on the government and they imposed a president on the Israeli terms, they brought him to the presidential palace in Baabda, so what was the reason? The attempt on the life of the Israeli ambassador. Is this a proportionate reaction to what happened, and then it turned out to be, now we read the pamphlets that the Mossad has started all this. Now, has the United Nations resigned from its job and tends to become a mere tool that can be operated by the United States? The time is finished? Let me finish with one simple thing. I believe that Hezbollah in its operation, in its war, it is resistance against the Israelis, it's doing its job, it's a duty and it's right. The Hezbollah is doing this, this is every Lebanese job, it's every Lebanese duty, every Lebanese group duty and right to do it. If they are not doing it and Hezbollah is doing it, I believe Hezbollah should be praised and hailed and they should be blamed for that and not Hezbollah. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ibrahim el Moussaoui, thank you very much indeed. You weren't actually fighting a war on Lebanon's behalf; you were fighting a war on Iran's behalf, weren't you? Iran has made it quite clear it wants to wipe Israel off the map, it gives you the weapons and orders you to fire them at Israel and you gladly carry out the duty, but you get the retaliation on to Lebanon.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Good question. When we started fighting in 1982 against the Israelis, we were fighting this for the Iranians and for the nuclear capabilities, and if we are fighting for Iran, the same is for Iraq, for Iran and for Syria, for anyone. Every party, if it's a client/partnership relationship, then you want to maximise your profits.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you think they gave you the rockets for, out of charity? They gave you them to use them.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Of course they gave us to use them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Exactly.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
But not use them to be mercenaries for the Iranian state. We were using them for ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It just happened to coincide neatly with what they wanted you to do.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
... to keep the sovereignty of Lebanon, to keep the heads of the Lebanese up, and more than that. If the Iranians are giving us the arms to do it, then Hassan Nasrallah would send his son to die for the Iranian state, for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and for Bashar Al-Assad? I don't believe it that he would.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What did they give you the rockets for?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
It you want to maximise your profits, you don't kill yourself.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ibrahim El Moussaoui, what did they give you the weapons for? To use against Israel. What other possible reason could there be to give hundreds of weapons that you let loose, bringing the destruction back on Lebanon. What was it for?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
The destruction was going to happen anywhere and they did produce evidence about the Israeli hostility and enmity and destruction. We're fighting, we were ready to take, I mean, it happens that Europeans because they are the lovers of Westerners and the Americans, they are the lovers of freedom and liberty and independence.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mona Fayad, a Shia academic writing in An-Nahar newspaper ...
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
You didn't let me answer.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I gave you quite a lot of time. She asks, 'Who is a Shiite today? Someone who takes his instructions from Iran, terrorises fellow believers into silence and leads the nation into catastrophe without consulting anyone.' This is a Shiite academic.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
This is another massive evidence that we believe in democracy and everyone, they can say whatever they want. They can say whatever they want. I believe this is a credit for Hezbollah, not against Hezbollah.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
I have a question for you.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
I just want to ask her two or three things. One day we are talking about legitimacy and about the destruction, they were talking about negotiations, and so it's not a matter that, you know, comprises more area than Lebanon or wherever, this is not the issue. The issue is completely different than that. Negotiations, adventures, etc., tell me, those wise people, what did they bring from the negotiations? The Palestinians have been negotiating for 20 years. What did they do? Yes, they were able to retrieve Sinai, the Egyptians, they were able and Sadat was able to retrieve Sinai back to Egypt but he gave all of Egypt to the Israelis and to the Americans.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Ibrahim el Moussaoui, thank you very much indeed. Right, we're going to throw the questions open to the audience. You're going to have your say, and we have a gentleman up there, please. Just briefly, just briefly, before we go to the questions.
OUSSAMA SAFA
There are a few provocative statements here by both Mona and Ibrahim. First, that the Hezbollah is liberating occupied land, what occupied land? In 2000 they were liberated. We celebrated this liberation and we were happy and our heads were really up.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
The Israelis are still inside.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Now they are, after this war.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
They were.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Hilltops of all the villages, unfortunately they fly Israeli flags. Right now we are occupied. Right now Lebanese citizens are abducted on a daily basis, and we know this and we see this in newspapers.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Don't you recognise Shebaa Farms as part of your territory?
OUSSAMA SAFA
Shebaa Farms is a small sliver that can be a wonderful subject of a diplomatic battle.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Even if it's one inch, it's sovereignty.
OUSSAMA SAFA
You are part of the government, you are part of parliament, you can introduce a motion to the Council of Ministers to launch a diplomatic offensive and you can see if this works or not. If at all this fails, then maybe you can consult over a military initiative, but you have no right to do this militarily initiative. Besides, Ibrahim, you say the army is very weak. Why did you allow it to deploy in the south then if it's very weak? Why did you just give it security in the south? Right now it's deployed and a more painful question than this, why did you forbid the army from deploying before July 12th and why did we have to go through so much destruction, through so much damage?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very brief answer and then we're going to go to the questions.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
This question should be addressed to the Lebanese system, through all of the ages and the years, because you know the dogma in Lebanon or the title that Lebanon's strength is in its weakness. They didn't make a very strong army, they didn't allow to have this kind of belief that Israel is its enemy. We all know that, you know that, we go back to history, this is one thing and when it comes to Shebaa Farms, and you say you have to give a chance for negotiations, for God's sake, the United Nation resolution, the 425, it has been there for 22 years and they didn't put it to implementation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Right, we could spend the whole night debating this.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Now we're going to go to a question from the gentleman up there, thank you very much.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much, good evening. My question is: would this conflict have still occurred if the Syrian army were still in Lebanon?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who's your question to, who would you like to answer it?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Whichever. Thank you.
OUSSAMA SAFA
If the Syrians were in Lebanon, I mean, it's really a difficult question to answer, it's a bit of an abstract question, but the Syrians in Lebanon played a very, very strong role in really beefing up the military capabilities of Hezbollah, and in supporting Hezbollah, and they're still doing this to this day. Whether they would have attacked or not, well, probably not, who knows, or probably they would have just to get done with this, but there is 1559 resolution that the whole international community entrusted us to implement peacefully, that was beside the point whether the Syrians were there or not, and 1559, we gave to a year-and-a-half of negotiations, of peaceful negotiations to try to settle it including the honourable disarmament of Hezbollah. It did not work. So I think the international community became impatient with this and unfortunately gave a green light to destroy, but whether the Syrians would have supported, who knows.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to come in on this?
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Yes, of course I want to come in on this. In 2004 there was an exchange of prisoners and Syria was there, so there was an exchange of prisoners between Hezbollah and Israel and negotiations took place and the Germans mediated that, so this is not new, and it was after a capture of Israeli soldiers too, so this is not new, that is what I'm trying to tell you. This is not new, this is a plan that was; this capture has triggered a plan already premeditated by Israel in concert with the United States. One question I want to pose to you, Mr. Tim Sebastian.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to ask the questions, not answer them.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Who finances Israel?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, you know who finances Israel.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Okay.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So there you are. We have a lady there who wants to have a question I believe. Can we get a microphone to her please?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is for the motion Imagine going back in time and Hezbollah did the exact same thing and they kidnapped two soldiers, and you were a policy-maker, you were let's say the President of Lebanon. What would you do, how would you respond if Israel replied back with bombing Lebanon, the South of Lebanon, how would you respond, and would you like forbid Hezbollah of fighting back and resisting?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hisham Kassem.
HISHAM KASSEM
I don't think they could have responded any different from President Lahoud. What could they have done?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
What would you have done?
HISHAM KASSEM
What would I have done?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
What would you have done? Yes, sorry.
HISHAM KASSEM
Well, I mean, it's a question of what I'd be capable of doing, and I don't think the President of Lebanon ...
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Do you think you would, for example, bring your army back into the south to fight in the war? Would you just stand there doing nothing? Would you ask for negotiations? What would you do?
HISHAM KASSEM
Frankly I don't think I would have reacted any differently from the existing government in Lebanon.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
So you would leave Israel to bomb Lebanon?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Meaning you would have sought negotiations?
OUSSAMA SAFA
But the point is that with or without fighting, the Israelis bombed Lebanon. It's not like we stop the aeroplanes or we stop the destruction of villages or we stop the destruction of the infrastructure and the killing of 1500 Lebanese and the displacement of one million. With or without the fighting, the point is resistance is ineffective in deterring, it's ineffective in protecting and it's ineffective in stopping the bombing, and so beside the point whether we reacted or not, the country is destroyed, so with or without a military force, and that's the other point, that resistance is a spent option, it's a spent force. It really did not protect us against this extremely vicious and savage bombing.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
It's a spent force if you want to give in. If you want to give in, but if you feel humiliated and abused for years, and somebody raises your dignity, I don't think ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me, just one person at a time.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
When you have been subjugated and subdued and abused and humiliated for decades, and now the first Arab force that resists Israel for 33 days and you're saying we didn't have to do it?
OUSSAMA SAFA
Who said Arab dignity is under threat?
HISHAM KASSEM
What sort of dignity is there in destroying Lebanon?
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
This is not the dignity, this is not the dignity. This was not the objective of Hezbollah. Hezbollah did not want to expand the war. Hezbollah wanted to confront a particular point which was the release of Lebanese prisoners and in particular Samir Al Qantar and he has said it and repeated it, and the government knows it. It was not a surprise for anyone.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Oussama, there is one major flaw, a shortcoming in your analysis or your argument. It isn't that you are attributing in a sense to Israel, as if Israel is not going to do the same thing. They're going to kill you anyway, so you are resisting. This is the choice of resistance, this that is one thing. If you're saying this because Israel has all of this might, then we have to surrender, we can do nothing about it, I believe that all the Arab states after Israel have to resign with all of their arms and arsenals, if they go I don't know where, maybe we have all to do and file for asylum in a certain country, because Israel could resort to the nuclear bombs as well. What can we do about it?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to answer that question? Let him answer.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Very quickly, very quickly. Israel is aggressive, is criminal, that is something I don't know. I have lived the wars, I know Israel's behaviour, I know Israel's crimes against humanity. My family and my village directly have been affected by this. I know this all too well, and this is all the more a reason not to provoke the Israelis this way, this is all the reason not to give them a pretext to attack us and destroy us like this. This is really in '82, all the more, in '82 war, did we get a pretext to come to Lebanon?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
What happened in 1982 is far more graver than what happened now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him say something. You ask him questions, let him say something.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Why was it Lebanon? Why didn't they invade Syria, why didn't they invade Iran? Why was it only Lebanon? Because they did have, as they have now, a non-state actor armed, roaming free and threatening instability in Lebanon and in the region.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Why don't the Americans invade Iran?
OUSSAMA SAFA
In 1949 we had stability with the new state.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to go to another question, and the gentleman in the front row, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to Oussama Safa. If Hezbollah did not take any action against Israel regardless of who started the war, who else from the Lebanon government would fight against the massive power of Israel force against the attacks on the capital Beirut?
OUSSAMA SAFA
I mean, again, this is the kind of answer that I did give to the lady. Let me be clear on this. First of all there are historical battlefield successes registered by extremely courageous and tenacious resistance fighters. There's no question about it for me to justify here. However, did the fighting by Hezbollah protect Beirut? Did the fighting by Hezbollah protect the bridges?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, let him answer please.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Have you been to the southern suburbs? Did you see the bombing, did Hezbollah protect it? The southern suburbs are a part of Beirut. Was it able to protect? Again, this was supposed to ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You ask a question, please let him answer it.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question was not about home protecting, but I mean, when Beirut the capital was bombed by the Israel force, who else if not Hezbollah, would take the action against them? Would the Lebanese government just stand still and see their capital, the first attacks were against the Beirut International Airport. Would the Lebanese government stay still and watch them bombing the airport? Who else would take the action from the Lebanese government, who else?
OUSSAMA SAFA
Of course not, of course not. The government nor any other government, nor all the Arab governments combined can stop such an aggression when an aggression is taking place. However, the Lebanese government ...
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But did Hezbollah have its role to stop the war, the ceasefire or ...
OUSSAMA SAFA
Hezbollah had a chance to stop the war.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But it had a ceasefire.
OUSSAMA SAFA
I'm not sure the ceasefire is due to Hezbollah stopping it. There was also in the huge diplomatic feat that was pulled off by the government, a huge diplomatic success in the nick of time that really was able to save the country. However, the party and Israel were locked down in a confrontation, in a very severe and destructive confrontation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Say something briefly, we've got a lot of questions out there.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
The ceasefire was delayed for four weeks and the Israelis were screaming, Condoleezza Rice didn't accept, even Tony Blair didn't accept the ceasefire to be broken because they were giving a chance to the Israelis to try to do something, to achieve something on the ground which they were not able after 33 days.
HISHAM KASSEM
To save face, to save face.
OUSSAMA SAFA
But there is also the fact that if Hezbollah accepted to return the prisoners in the first week of the war, we could have been spared all the destruction, there is also that fact. Let us not forget this.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right. I would like some questions for this part of the debate please, for those who are against the motion. Who has a question for those against the motion? The lady in the front row, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to Mr. Ibrahim. If we allow a private organisation such as Hezbollah, a religious organisation, to defend their country, we slowly have organisations worldwide like Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, and the government won't have control over their weapons, and then destruction would take place all over the world. I don't have a solution for the prisoners that are kept, but I know what we shouldn't do and that's not to kidnap two more soldiers and have Hezbollah defend the country, because slowly that's just going to cause destruction around the world.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Well actually it's not a private organisation. You're talking about the people, the grass roots; you're talking about villagers, people who live in the south. If you go to the villages, to Ayatashab, now they are familiar to you, to Aytaroon, to Bint Jbeil, to places, it's the villagers, the people who live there, the farmers, the pharmacists, the teachers, the shopkeepers, and they were fighting against the Israelis, they were fighting for their dignity, for their land, to make the country sovereign. They are not fighting for anyone else, they are not mercenaries, and when you talk about private organisation, al Qaeda and others, and not allowing or not having the, the country or the state does not have the mandate over their arms, I mean, the Lebanese army was not there, and this is due to in effect the Lebanese system, that they didn't build a strong army in order to fight the Israelis. Even the classical army, even if it was there, they couldn't fight the Israelis, it needs a guerrilla warfare, a different kind of classical war to fight the Israelis, so I mean, this is the kind of thing that we have to look for.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mona.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Yes. Another thing is that if the government; every Israeli assault was diminishing the capability of the formal government, so other people had to step in to be the opposition and the resistance force, because at every assault of Israel, you diminish the impact and the efficiency of official government, and this is what happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
A brief word from this side, then I'm going to go back to the questioner and see if she was satisfied with the answer.
HISHAM KASSEM
No, they stepped in to diminish the whole of Lebanon. If you're complaining that Israeli assaults were diminishing the government, we saw the destruction of Lebanon as a result of this intervention on Hezbollah's part.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let me go back to the questioner. Are you happy with the answer you've had from this side?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Well, I believe that, okay, it might not be a private organisation but I don't see, because if it's not of the government, I consider it private, and if we slowly have them defending their country, we have bin Laden, he's considering he's defending Islam and it's portraying Islam to the whole world, and he thinks he's defending Islam. I don't believe he is defending Islam, but they're sharing their point of view, that what they believe is right without concerning the government, without going back and asking the people who are in control, and their role is to ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you. We're going to take a question from the gentleman right at the back please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The question here is for Mrs. Mona or from the panel there. While Hezbollah carried out their action on behalf of Lebanon, did they consider the impact or consequence on the rest of the population of Lebanon which constitutes the other big majority considering the Druze, the Christians, the other Muslims?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mona Makram-Ebeid, what do you think? You weren't there but what do you think?
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
As I told you before, the Hezbollah did not have the intention of escalating into a confrontation and into a war. This was a localised thing which they had announced they wanted to release their prisoners.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You really believe that with the hundreds of missiles that they had stockpiled, they didn't want to escalate, you really believe that?
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
No, I do really believe so, they wanted to have a swap, seize the two Israeli soldiers and in return get the release of Lebanese prisoners who have been there for 20 years unjustifiably detained. This was the main objective, they had no other objective, and then it so happened that it triggered a premeditated plan to attack Lebanon. This was not an ordinary reaction on the part of Israel, as before that, there was negotiations for an exchange of prisoners and as recently as 2004.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. You want to come back and say something.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, just let me remark quickly, that does confirm that what Hezbollah did was certainly an inconsiderate adventure when they didn't seek in advance of what that would bring to Lebanon, of simply going into Israel territory and kidnapping two soldiers and then bringing back havoc to Lebanon.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you've had your view. Lady in the front row, a question from you please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Don't you think that this war was going to happen in any case, and that the incident of the two soldiers kidnapped was just a pretext to start it, and in the same sense, the real reason for this is the waters of the Litani and not the release of the soldiers.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oussama Safa.
OUSSAMA SAFA
I know there are reports that said that this war was going to happen anyway. It did happen but as Mona said, Hezbollah provoked it, Hezbollah gave it a pretext that made us lose the international support that we would have had, had Israel started it with no pretext. We lost the moral high ground. We lost the fact that we can defend our case with ironclad support. We no longer had that support, because of the actions of Hezbollah that did trigger, that did provoke this war. Whether or not it's going to happen, we know again, we know Israel's aggression, we know Israel's ambition for Lebanon.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Yes, but what international support, for 20 years?
OUSSAMA SAFA
We've always had international support.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
In doing what, in releasing your prisoners? In liberating Shebaa Farms?
OUSSAMA SAFA
In implementing resolution 425, and drawing the blue line, and we were continuing the international support.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Resolution 425 has been implemented after 20 years, why? Why didn't they put it into implementation after one year?
OUSSAMA SAFA
There was an honourable resistance of occupation, Ibrahim, but right now we had no occupation.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Since when did governments or international organisations release prisoners, since when, since when?
OUSSAMA SAFA
In history precedents are abundant with it.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
No, we're talking about Lebanon.
OUSSAMA SAFA
The Palestinians released 2000 prisoners in negotiations.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, could one person talk at a time.
OUSSAMA SAFA
The Palestinians released 2000 prisoners in one negotiation. In another negotiation, they released 600 prisoners. Did we try at least? Wasn't it worth a try, or $15 billion of destruction and havoc and thousands of dead is a more realistic option? At least it would have been worth a try.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
They were able to release 2000 Palestinians, next round 600, you know, after what, after the Israelis have put 10,000 in jails.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let's take a question from the gentleman up there on the left please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Actually my question is for Mr. Ibrahim el Moussaoui, but I would just like to say that everybody seems to forget the Lebanese prisoners in Syria so ... But the question is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you from Lebanon?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I am a Lebanese. My question is concerning everything you have said about Hezbollah, and considering that Hezbollah was really looking out for the best of Lebanon, don't you think its militia of 50,000 men and 22,000 rockets should have joined the Lebanese army and wouldn't it strengthen our classic, weak army in government?
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's to you.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Don't you think they should have joined, your militia should have joined the army?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
We're not a militia, first of all, a resistance movement, and now if you look what we're doing, they have always been fighting for Lebanon, whether with the Lebanese army or without the Lebanese army, when this army was not assuming a role, which the Lebanese army should have done. I believe this question should be asked for the political leadership, that didn't allow the Lebanese army to assume a supporter role. This is one. The other thing, when it comes to the Lebanese in the Syrian prisons, Hezbollah was doing every effort in order to try to help secure their release and they were having close contacts even with the Free Patriotic Movement in order to do something about it. The things that happened recently after the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri and the Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon complicated the thing in a way that didn't allow the track to go on.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oussama Safa, what were you going to say?
OUSSAMA SAFA
Syrian soldiers ...
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Syria is not an enemy state, first of all. You're putting Israel and Syria on equal footing, this is a big problem I believe.
OUSSAMA SAFA
I'm putting the strategy on equal footing.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
You talk about the Syrians, I'm not defending them here, I'm not talking on behalf of Syria, but many Syrians have been abducted in Lebanon and killed and many Lebanese were kidnapped and they were in Syria and Hezbollah was trying to do something about it, and negotiations had already started on this when this drama with Hariri happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's go back to the questioner. What do you think about the answers you've had? Are you happy with that?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, but it's just that Hezbollah was given the opportunity of being part of the Lebanese army and having command of some troops, so it could strengthen it. I don't see why they always blamed the others for not wanting them there and they just think that their resistance was something in Lebanon's name.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you think that Hezbollah should disarm now?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Maybe not disarm but join the Lebanese army which they claim weak.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
But joining the Lebanese army does not necessarily mean that we'd be part just like a brigade, one of them there, with the checkpoints and everybody sees that Hezbollah is there. We're part of the Lebanese army in the defensive strategy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. Questioner in the front row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
First of all I would like to say that when the war started, Saudi, Jordan and Egypt announced that this is an uncalculated or a non-calculated adventure from Hezbollah. This has given some cushion to the Israelis to at least accept the whole situation and go as hard as they can, but the question is that this adventure, whether uncalculated or not calculated, we have to look at the other side. Was Iran behind it, because the Israelis were talking about a pre-emptive strike on the Iranian nuclear facilities? Why not the Iranians have pushed Hezbollah one way or the other to start any skirmishes that will show the Israelis that in case of a pre-emptive strike, Hezbollah can do a lot of destruction at Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mona Makram-Ebeid.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Why not reverse the question and say that Israel was being pushed by the United States in order to show Iran that it can get to Iran through Lebanon?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But eventually they could not get to Iran. They destroyed Lebanon, but the Israelis have learned that, you know, Hezbollah could do a lot of damage, so I think it should be the other way round, that the Iranians wanted to send this message, because this frontier, this northern frontier to Israel is open. We know that Jordan will not fight, we know that Egypt will not fight, we know that Syria will not fight. They've been controlling themselves for the past 40 years; they are the masters of self-discipline when it comes to things with Israel.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Very good, excellent, I will clap to that.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
So I would love to hear Mr. Moussaoui's thoughts. I'm not against you but I just want ...
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
What's your question exactly, rephrase your question please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The question is that we know that Israel and the Americans were talking about pre-emptive strikes within the foreseeable future on the Iranian nuclear facilities. Why not?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
That Hezbollah is acting on behalf of the Iranians in this war, this is what you want to say?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
One way or the other, to show them that we can do damage to Israel.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Look, listen. You have to have a very calculated, a very trustworthy information to be able to talk about this. Hezbollah is not a pro-Iranian infrastructure, Hezbollah, yes, is supported by Iran, is supported by Bashir, and Hezbollah is ready to be supported by anyone. Now the Qataris are supporting Hezbollah, they're building many facilities for Hezbollah. I'm telling you, I mean, we welcome any support from any Arab or Islamic state or even state who are ready to help in resistance or in any other thing, so when it comes to this, we don't work for any Iranian agenda, we work for a pure Lebanese agenda, domestic agenda, that takes into interest first and above all the Lebanese interests.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, we've made that point. Gentleman in the second row in the blue shirt.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
First of all to Mrs. Mona. You say that there were no demonstrations by the Lebanese people against the actions of Hezbollah upon Israel. Well, we're a democratic state and other Lebanese do not want to undermine other groups within Lebanon when it comes to the Israelis, so just because some Lebanese did not counteract Hezbollah's actions does not mean that all Lebanese agreed with it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What is your question?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question, for Lebanese prisoners within Israel, is it worth all the destruction that has happened to Lebanon economically, socially, monetarily, and humanitarianly. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ibrahim el Moussaoui.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
When you say that, as if you're telling me that Israel is that innocent state, they have no ambitions in Lebanon ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, he's asking you whether it's worth it.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
This is what we've been talking about from the beginning, about a premeditated plan by the Israelis in order to destroy Lebanon, they have a mission with Lebanon. They were not waiting for the pretext or alibi to do it, so when Hezbollah gave this operation Hassan Nasrallah came after two hours to make a press conference to say just directly, 'We don't want to lead to any instability or any escalation. We want two things, indirect negotiation and this one,' and this has happened many times before, not one time, and it worked. Why didn't it work this time? You have to see the Israeli plans and the American plans. This is something that was being done in the American and Israeli departments.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, come back briefly. Wait one moment. Oussama Safa.
OUSSAMA SAFA
There is one point of view that has not yet been made, that Israel has lost a pilot in Lebanon, his name is Ron Arad and they want the remains of this pilot. If they get back the remains of this pilot, we get back the prisoners. There would have been an easy diplomatic swap if Hezbollah was willing to work for it really a bit harder than this, rather than abduct the soldiers.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, a brief word from the questioner.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I'm a person who does not support Hezbollah but I do claim that Mr. Nasrallah is a very smart person. In saying so, if Hezbollah does know that Israel is waiting for anything from the Lebanese or from Hezbollah's side, in order to enter Lebanon, you just gave them the entire initiative to enter.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just go to the gentleman over there in the third row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to Mr. Hisham. A recent study or article in the Middle East newspaper shows that a big percentage of Israeli people during wartime have trusted comments stated by Mr. Hassan Nasrallah whereas they didn't trust much of the comments by official Israeli governments. Doesn't that give Hezbollah some credibility in their cause of defending Lebanon? Thank you.
HISHAM KASSEM
Okay, certainly, if these reports are correct, it would give Hezbollah credibility, but again, do you think that giving Hezbollah credibility is worth the destruction of Lebanon?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No, of course it's not worth the destruction but it's a point of aspect that you have to look that Hezbollah didn't go into this war for certain reasons, it's only for defending the country, not in order to gain power or some story or stuff that people say about it.
HISHAM KASSEM
Well, I'm not really sure how you came to that conclusion but OK, I'll accept the argument.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
But have you forgotten that Hezbollah is a popular movement?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Everybody's talking at once, please, just one person. You're arguing amongst yourselves now.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Hezbollah is a grass roots organisation. It is the only movement that has penetrated the people, and it has the support of the people, that's the difference. Today, that makes it genuine, that makes it authentic and that gives it the legal right to talk or to act for the protection of Lebanon.
OUSSAMA SAFA
No-one's questioning Hezbollah's legitimacy but people are questioning its military wing. Absolutely Hezbollah is a legitimate political party, it's a huge player with a very large following and constituency and yes, it is accepted absolutely, it's part of Lebanon, but everyone is questioning its military wing and its military decision and its military wisdom.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Ibrahim el Moussaoui.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
There is one major distortion that keeps happening in the discussion I believe. It has to do with Israel, because you are talking about two parties fighting each other, Lebanon and Israel, with Lebanon represented by Hezbollah.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, that's the motion, that's actually the motion that we're discussing
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Yes, okay, well this is what I want to say, I mean, always is it worth this destruction, as if we are innocents and Israel has no ambitions, no conspiracies against Lebanon. I did give an example about the 1982, the invasion of 1978. I'll give you one example. From 1948 to 1965, such a long period of time which had never witnessed any kind of resistance, not Lebanese, not Palestinian, not whatsoever, the Israelis have violated our sovereignty, penetrated our territory, kidnapped many people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm not sure that's quite the issue we're discussing.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
So I mean, Israel is not waiting for an alibi or a pretext to destroy or to carry aggressions. This is something that we have to keep in mind.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. We'll go to a lady in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to Mr. Oussama Safa. Are you trying to justify Israel's attack on Lebanon this summer? It's just a yes or no question.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Absolutely not. I'm not a spokesman of Israel.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
So why are you saying that Hezbollah was the reason why villages were wiped out in southern Lebanon? I mean, you're missing the bigger picture. Israel was the one that attacked villages in south Lebanon, not Hezbollah. You said yourself that Lebanese people have the right to dream and they do. They have the right to dream that they'll get their prisoners back from Israeli dungeons and to get their dignity. That's why Hezbollah did the action it did. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oussama Safa.
OUSSAMA SAFA
And the Lebanese have the right to know when they're going to go to war, and the Lebanese have the right to know that there are other options other than war. And the Lebanese have the right to know that it's one single state, legitimate state institution is the one who decides when and how to get the prisoners back, and not one armed faction that represents maybe one-third of the population that will do this and will incur the devastation.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Why didn't you do it before?
OUSSAMA SAFA
What?
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
If the army had done it before, if the Lebanese government had done anything before, or if any Arab government had done anything before ...
OUSSAMA SAFA
I'm sorry, Hezbollah is part of the government.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
... Then you could accuse Hezbollah, but nobody had done anything. It's the only Arab force that stood up to resist Israeli occupation, the only Arab force that asked for the release of prisoners.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you said that before.
OUSSAMA SAFA
It did so in 2000, it stood up to the Israelis brilliantly in a wonderful and dignified way.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
But it shouldn't have done it in ...
OUSSAMA SAFA
We didn't have to do it again six years later. Is this Lebanon's fate, to have a war every five to six years, to prove that it can stand up to the Israelis?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Oussama, it did it according to the ministerial statement that the government gave the confidence of the parliament according to it, they didn't do ...
OUSSAMA SAFA
A serious statement adopted the principle, embraced resistance, but did not give you a free card to secretively plan and take people off guard and do any military operation at will.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
You have to go to the wording of the ministerial statement.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're actually going to the woman in the pink jacket.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
We have been told, during the national dialogue, Hassan Nasrallah told Hariri, they told them, 'We are going to carry out an operation to take Israeli captives in order to swap them with our hostages,' they know that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take another question from the lady in the second row here please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is for the motion. If Hezbollah had no right to go in war on behalf of Lebanon, who else then has the right? I mean, do Israelis have the right to go in a war on behalf of Israelis for instance, and if they do, so what are the justifications for them to do so, to go to the war against Lebanon?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hisham Kassem
HISHAM KASSEM
Look, the only justification to go to war is to expedite a political purpose. When a political track comes to its end, then you go to war, provided you can get to your political purpose with this war. To enter a war to lose does not make sense. This is not a question of legitimacy which I see both Mona and Ibrahim keep talking about or maybe your question that it's their right or so, and nobody is defending Israel's right to destroy a country or any other country. The question is, you enter a war to win, not to get your country destroyed.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
This is the core of the argument, the core of the argument that Hezbollah had no right to go to a fight. So it's a legitimate question, that's why we're talking about it.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Well, who has the right? It's very simple; it's legitimate state institutions in Lebanon.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
They are not doing their job, they haven't done their job in 30 years, in 50 years.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can Hisham Kassem come back on this, please?
HISHAM KASSEM
What you say is basically a serious breach of the idea of nation states of government. The fact that three ministers in the government, or four, I'm not sure, take the decision to take the country unilaterally into war and then Mr. Hassan Nasrallah comes up saying that the only reason they decided to handle it this way was because minutes of a cabinet meeting leak out, therefore we decided to take the country into war, is basically ...
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Distortion of the facts. This is not what happened in Lebanon actually. You're talking about the continuation of the resistance. From 1982 they started, the Israelis reached to Beirut, they occupied Beirut ...
HISHAM KASSEM
Yes, they reached Beirut because the PLO was there and that was the problem.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
No, no, no. Sabra and Shatila massacre, Qana massacre, the resistance was able to force them to retreat from Beirut.
HISHAM KASSEM
I'm sorry, Sabra and Shatila was carried out by Al Kataeb.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Under the supervision of the Israelis.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've made the point. Let's go to the lady in the fifth row up there please. She's been waiting patiently for a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
If America is able to give weapons to Israel without anyone saying anything, why can't Syria and Iran give weapons to Hezbollah to fight back and defend themselves and Lebanon?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hisham Kassem.
HISHAM KASSEM
They certainly can, you see, nobody is questioning the legitimacy in that sense, but you say to defend Lebanon. No, they took weapons and ended up destroying Lebanon. What we have are volleys of Katyusha being fired into Israel that landed in parks and the sea; did minimal damage in comparison, so nobody's contesting that, yes. If the United States gives Israel weapons, Iran can go ahead and give Hezbollah, but it's not to defend.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, gentleman in the third row there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Somebody mentioned that are the prisoners in Israel's jails, was that worth the destruction that has happened to Lebanon? The question now: are two captured, not murdered, are two captured human beings worth the destruction that happened to Lebanon? Actually Israel started that war.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm sorry, we've already answered that question.
HISHAM KASSEM
And again, nobody is defending Israel's actions, OK, nobody can defend action that was taken against Lebanon or any other country.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, gentleman in the striped shirt up there, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
First of all, my question is for both for and against, so Mr. Hisham said that the war was bad for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Mrs. Mona said that there was a great sort of support from the Arab Islamic public, and that is somehow related to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, because you see it all against each other.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we have the question?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
So the question is, was this war good or bad and this for both, for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mona Makram-Ebeid.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Right, I believe that on the contrary, today there's a great opportunity for peace because now they are talking about the peace process which they have forgotten for 4 or 5 years. The quartet was set aside, the US didn't care, the Arab governments, because they are allies of the US, didn't speak anything in the name of the Palestinians. Today there is an opportunity to open up the peace process and maybe to get somewhere.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oussama Safa.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
And I'm sure that Hassan Nasrallah will help in doing that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oussama Safa.
OUSSAMA SAFA
I think it distracted attention from the Palestinian cause, I think it really did a large disservice to the Palestinian cause, it put it off the map for a while, and allowed Israel to again prolong the suffering of the Palestinians, prolong the bombing and the mayhem against the Palestinians, and this was really something the Palestinians did not need, so I think definitely it did hurt the Palestinian cause.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, woman in the front row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Mr. Oussama, you said that Hezbollah should not have the right to fight against Israel, so are you trying to say that Israeli blood is worth, of more value than Lebanese blood?
OUSSAMA SAFA
Me. I did not say it doesn't have the right to fight against Israel. I said it does not have the right to drag Lebanon into a war. Hezbollah is a resistance; it has all the right to liberate the country when it was occupied. It liberated in 2000, it's a legitimate actor in this. By all accounts all over Lebanon it really benefited from the united stand of all Lebanese to liberate the country in 2000. After 2000 basically Hezbollah's fight was no longer legitimate in the eyes of all the Lebanese. It split the country.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
But the government let it, the government gave, let it, and so did Israel.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Where did you bring this from? All the Lebanese?
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
The government has let it.
OUSSAMA SAFA
It was no longer legitimate in the eyes of all the Lebanese.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
In a poll conducted by Beirut Centre for Studies, 87% of the Lebanese were behind the Hezbollah resistance, and you say all the Lebanese were against Hezbollah continuing its resistance? Where did you bring this number?
OUSSAMA SAFA
I would like a referendum today, I would like a referendum today, after the destruction, after ...
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
We all worship God, we all worship God.
OUSSAMA SAFA
... Where Hezbollah's position stands.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What's your point?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
But a volcano takes, erupts or earthquake happens and people say, 'What did God do for us?' And if you go and make a poll for God, people say, 'Wow, we are 75% only with God not 100.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Our country was free. There was no occupation on July 11th; there was no occupation in south Lebanon on July 11th.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Not recognising Shebaa Farms as part of your country? For God's sake, the Lebanese government says, Hassan Nasrallah stood up and said, 'Let the Lebanese government say Shebaa Farms is not Lebanese, we will stop our resistance.' You know it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you let him answer please, could you let him answer?
OUSSAMA SAFA
The international community says Shebaa Farms is not Lebanese.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Who says this?
OUSSAMA SAFA
The whole world says Shebaa Farms isn't Lebanese. The United Nations says Shebaa Farms is not Lebanese. Still we are willing to liberate Shebaa Farms.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
But the Lebanese say it's Lebanese.
OUSSAMA SAFA
You know what's very ironic is that Shebaa Farms might be liberated through a diplomatic battle. Right now Shebaa Farms is on the table of discussion.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
And because of the resistance of Hezbollah, because of the tenacity of Hezbollah, that's why they were left.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to hear from Hisham Kassem. Could you let Hisham Kasssem speak please? He's waited patiently while you spoke, thank you.
HISHAM KASSEM
Because of the resistance of Hezbollah, instead of only having Shebaa Farms occupied now, the full south is occupied by Israel.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
The full south is occupied, I believe I know the South better than you! There are only six points, six points on the outskirts of the villages that the Israelis are there.
HISHAM KASSEM
Is that more space than Shebaa Farms or not?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Absolutely not, absolutely not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're itching to come back in, you've got something to say, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes. I'm trying to say, doesn't Hezbollah have the right to fight because, you know, he's protecting his country, he's very patriotic.
HISHAM KASSEM
What protection? There is no protection. We do not deny the right of Hezbollah to fight if they're going to bring something to Lebanon, not to bring destruction and military defeat to Lebanon. That's the point of contention.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Destruction is coming anyway.
HISHAM KASSEM
I don't know where this point is coming from, this theory that there was going to be an invasion in September.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you. Let's take a question from the lady up there please, at the end of the row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening everyone. My question is for the motion. You're talking as if Hezbollah attacked Tel Aviv right from the start. Hezbollah did something that it's always been used to do, it captured soldiers in an attempt for negotiations to release the rest of the Lebanese people in the Israeli prisons, so if destroying the airport and if wiping out the villages and cities, and most importantly if killing the children and innocent civilians is not reason enough for us to fight back, and mark my words, I'm saying fight back and not take the country to war, if that is not reason enough, what is reason enough? Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we've covered this to a large extent, but we'll just have a brief answer. Then we'll move on. We don't want to repeat all the questions.
HISHAM KASSEM
Simply this is not the motion. You see, nobody is defending Israel's actions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Right, thank you. The lady in the third row.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
The motion is biased from the very start, what shall we do?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You accepted to come on and speak about the motion. You may say the motion is biased, the motion is provocative, I would call it.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Why are we questioning why Iran gave Hezbollah weapons and even orders, when Hezbollah has free will, they could reject the offer?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hisham Kassem.
HISHAM KASSEM
I'm really not sure if Hezbollah has free will to reject the offer really. Nothing really makes sense in this offensive that Hezbollah launched, and to me the only interpretation is they have been pushed into this by Iran.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Believe me, Hezbollah has a free will more than most of the Arab states and more than any other organisation and more than another party.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady in the front row, your turn.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
If the Lebanese government had not feared international rejection of Hezbollah, don't you think that they would have supported Hezbollah?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oussama Safa, do you want to take that?
OUSSAMA SAFA
The Lebanese government is not rejecting Hezbollah. Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government. Again we had an ongoing national dialogue, we had an ongoing consensus for finding a reasonable and honourable defence strategy for Lebanon, and then suddenly this happened that has reshuffled the cards.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Not suddenly, I mean sorry. They were told about it.
OUSSAMA SAFA
You knew about July 12th?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Sorry.
OUSSAMA SAFA
I didn't know about July 12th.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
You did.
OUSSAMA SAFA
I would have liked to have seen 1500 families of the dead who have been told they would be protected.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
They were raising their hands and saying, 'It's all sacrifice for Lebanon, for Nasrallah,' everybody heard them saying that. This is what they said, and maybe in that time you were in your office under your condition, writing something while they were under the debris and the rubble. They can't say, 'We have victory.' This is what they said, this is what happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let him reply to that.
OUSSAMA SAFA
I was in Beirut and my house is very close to the southern suburbs.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
And had no air-conditioning.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much. You weren't in the country.
OUSSAMA SAFA
And I was being bombed and you're right, Mona, I had no air-conditioning because I had no electricity. And I was watching the planes.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
But you were safe, you were safe.
OUSSAMA SAFA
And I was watching the planes.
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Watching planes, they were under the bombs of the planes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you let him speak. He sat back and let you speak, thank you very much. There are some rules here. Will you let him speak? Thank you.
OUSSAMA SAFA
Luckily I was safe, so was my family and so were you, Ibrahim. We did our part of the resistance, yes, writing is part of the resistance absolutely, but that doesn't mean that 1500 people, all of them wanted to die. That doesn't mean that one million people, all of them wanted to be displaced, and that doesn't mean they did not have the right at least to be told, to be warned, to be protected on July 12th.
MONA MAKRAM-EBEID
Why are you talking about all this dying and not dying? Nobody knew that this was the carnage that Israel would bring upon Lebanon. What are you talking about?
IBRAHIM EL MOUSSAOUI
Given what you're saying, I don't know what you were writing; maybe you were writing about things that most of the Lebanese won't like to read.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to take a question from the lady in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This question is to Hisham. I think it is really ironic that you said that Hezbollah had to withdraw from Lebanon to save face, because I think to most Arabs it was actually that Hezbollah was saving our face and it was Israel that was embarrassed and had to withdraw from Lebanon because of the resolution that was passed, and for once Israel really listened to the UN and actually pulled back, so I want you to actually try to think of it as why did Israel pull back when continuously ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we have a question please?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, why has Israel only chosen to pull back from Lebanon when resolutions continuously have been passed in the UN and Israel has chosen to ignore them?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hisham.
HISHAM KASSEM
Look, to me the only reason I am on this side of the motion is that the action of Hezbollah has brought about destruction to Lebanon, and I do not believe in entering a war to lose it. Simple.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. We have come to the point, ladies and gentlemen, where we are going to vote on the motion. We are going to vote on the motion that 'This House believes that Hezbollah had no right to fight a war on Lebanon's behalf.' Will you please take the voting machines. If you want to vote for, will you press button 1, the yellow button. If you want to vote against, it's button 2, the red button, and would you please do that now. You only have to press a button once and your vote will be recorded by the computers and sent to the screen. We should be getting the vote up now on screen, there it is coming up. You can see the figures, 37.4 for the motion, 62.6 against. The motion has been resoundingly defeated. My thanks to our eminent speakers for making the journey here, not that they did much listening to each other, but thank you anyway. Thank you very much to our audience. The Doha Debates will be back again next month. Until then, from all of us on the team, good-bye, good night and thank you very much.