This House believes the face veil is a barrier to integration in the West

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and Gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. A piece of black cloth known as the niqab or face veil is now being seen by some as a symptom of the failure of Muslim minorities to integrate into Western society. Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair called it a mark of separation. His Italian counterpart Romano Prodi told a news agency 'you can't cover your face; you must be seen. It is important for our society'. So, is it simply a question of the freedom to wear what you want, or do mainstream Western societies have legitimate concerns about the niqab? Tonight's debate seeks to answer those questions. Our motion is that 'This House believes the face veil is a barrier to integration in the West', and it's a topic our speakers know well. For the motion, Lord Ahmed of Rotherham, the first Muslim to be created a life Peer in the British House of Lords. Born in Pakistan, he emigrated when he was seven and has been active in British politics, chairing the South Yorkshire Labour Party and founding the British Muslim Councillors' Forum. At one time he also ran a chain of shops selling fish and chips, now sadly relegated to Britain's second favourite food. With him, Reem Maghribi who founded the English language Sharq magazine, which covers Arab culture and life-styles and is based in London. As editor-in-chief, she has turned the publication into an international on-line magazine. She's also a trustee of British Muslims Secular Democracy, a group that campaigns for a clear separation between religion and state. Against the motion, Ayshah Ismail. She teaches science at a Muslim girls' school in the northern English city of Preston. She's also helping to set up a charity to assist children affected by war, poverty and natural disasters. She wore the hijab (head scarf) for eight years and took up the niqab of her own free will a year ago. And with her, Ahmed Younis, a former National Director of the Muslim Public Affairs Council in the United States and soon to become an adviser to senior American government officials. He's also the author of a book about the debate surrounding Muslims in America in the aftermath of 9/11. Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. And now let me call first of all on Lord Ahmed to speak for the motion.

LORD AHMED< br />I support the motion because I believe that the niqab is seen as a mark of separation, because Muslims who wear the niqab cannot take part, cannot participate or integrate into European or Western society, whether it comes to working in the courts, immigration service, customs or banks or shops or as receptionists. I believe that Muslims are part of the British society and they need to be in every sphere, in every arena within the British system. I don't want the state to ban the veil like in Holland and in France and in Germany. I want a sensible debate, a sensitive debate. I don't want the veil to become a symbol of Muslims or Islam like Abu Hamza and Omar Bakri, the fanatics who became the voice of Muslims. I want the Muslims to be part of the European society. When I went to the United Kingdom long before them, during the Second World War, Muslims fought for Britain, they fought against the Fascists. They contributed in British society, in rebuilding the countries, France, Britain, in the steel industries, in the textile mills, in the infrastructure. Britain is the fourth richest country in the world today and I'm proud that Muslims have made that contribution. So I don't want no-go areas for Muslims in the United Kingdom. When I went to Britain, my identity was, I was a Pakistani Kashmiri. Then I became British Pakistani, British Kashmiri. Then I became a British Muslim. I am a British citizen, a European citizen, who has a faith of Islam. When I went to the United Kingdom, our national dish was fish, chips and mushy peas. Today Alhamdu Lillah (praise be to God) it's chicken Tikka Masala, and that's how Britain has evolved. Britain has 300 languages, for instance. We have 13 major religions, 1400 mosques. I want these mosques to continue to grow, and also I want Muslims to participate. I want Muslims to build bridges. Islam is about peace, it's a religion of peace, it's a religion of moderation and not extremism. Islam encourages engagement and not segregation. 9/11 and 7/7 have changed our world. It has put fears and suspicion and intolerance in many Europeans and Western people, but you know, we also have a problem with Muslims who have identity crises, radicalisation and extremism. This does not help in integration and that's why I believe that a veil, on the question of veil, we need to use wisdom, as the Prophet Mohammed salla Allahu alaihi wa-sallam (peace be upon him) taught us, that we need to have wisdom and that's the way we will integrate in the Western European societies. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lord Ahmed, thank you very much indeed. Who is to judge what is an appropriate level of integration for niqab-wearers? Not the House of Lords in Britain, surely.
LORD AHMED
Absolutely not, but it's the British society and ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're seeking to do that.
LORD AHMED
57% of the British public said that Muslims need to do more to integrate in the British society. There's obviously a feeling, 22% of the British public said ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, but they don't attribute that to the niqab, do they.
LORD AHMED
No, I think 57% of the British public supported Jack Straw on the niqab. Now, I had a different feeling on Jack straw's debate, because I think the teacher that was being targeted, there was another issue of sub judice. However, I think that there is a real issue, that when you have a section of the community that does not take part, that is seen as separate because they are associated with a religion and they're seen as some aliens, and these are not people who have become like this because ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why are you calling them aliens? They take part in all sorts of jobs that are part of normal, everyday life in society. What happened, Lord Ahmed, to British diversity, what's wrong with British diversity?
LORD AHMED
We celebrate British diversity, and I think that's something we need to support.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're not celebrating the fact that people can come and wear a niqab in Britain when in other countries they can't and this is a freedom that is given to them. Isn't that something you celebrate about life in Britain today, that the freedom is there, and you now call it a barrier to integration? They're simply exercising their freedom.
LORD AHMED
I have no objection to people wearing a niqab who are coming in as holidaymakers or those people who don't want to participate in the society, but ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why should you have an objection at all to them, why? They're simply doing what they want, they're wearing what they want to wear.
LORD AHMED
If the Europeans came to Riyadh or Tehran and they didn't wear the hijab (head scarf), I am sure that they will not be welcomed, as these, the people who are wearing niqab are being seen as aliens in many parts of the United Kingdom and Europe.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm sure that's a topic that our audience will want to take up later. Lord Ahmed, thank you very much indeed. Now let me ask Ayshah Ismail to speak against the motion please. Now let me ask Ayshah Ismail to speak against the motion please.

AYSHAH ISMAIL
Assalaam alaikum (Peace be upon you). First of all, thank you. I mean, it's an absolute delight to be here. First of all, let me just ask and I might be reiterating Tim's point there, what is integration? Let me define what integration is. It's the behaviour towards an individual that is actually in harmony with society. Now, the question is, how does someone decide when you or myself are in harmony with society? Are there particular check boxes that we have to have in order that we are in harmony with society? Let me make this personal. I am sat here and as you can see I'm a veiled Muslim woman. I took it up a year ago voluntarily, and I reiterate that, of my own choice. It wasn't done because I was asked to do it. I believe that in my understanding of Islam that I have to cover and that's why I've done it. Since then, I have found no change in my lifestyle. I am Alhamdulillah (Praise to God) by profession a teacher. I work, I drive to school. I shop at the local supermarket. I go to the gym, although not too recently I haven't been. My lifestyle is just as similar to my non-Muslim colleagues and friends as a veiled Muslim. Now, can anyone say to me that I'm not integrating into my British citizenship? I am a proud British citizen and I do everything that I can do within my power to integrate into that society, and I don't allow this simple piece of cloth to stop me from doing it. What I find with regards to the motion is the face veil a barrier to integration, no. Is it an excuse for those who want to use it as a barrier to integration? Yes, it is. The only barrier I can see with the face veil is not a particular piece of cloth, it is the lack of understanding, it's ignorance on the part of those who don't understand what the veil is for. Now, I don't want to go down to a debate as to what the veil represents or why we wear it, but if people understood, if non-Muslims or other Muslims as well, if they understood why we cover, I think they wouldn't find it as hard to communicate with me or to actually be direct with me, and I think I have to underline that point, in fact. It's not the veil that is the barrier, it's ignorance surrounding the actual veil. As a veiled niqabi in Western society, I live my daily life, like I said, living a normal life. However, the way I choose to display my personal relationship with my Allah, I don't impose on anyone else. Walking down the street, I'm minding my own business, I'm not harming anyone else, and surely is that not a matter of my choice? For me to wear the veil as a badge of my belief, should that not be within my realm, if I believe that I am fully integrating into society? So I ask you, and I just want to finish off, just the fact that I am sat here, the fact that I have flown over from the UK, is that not proof in itself that I am integrated into society?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ayshah Ismail, thank you very much. So what you're saying really is the people who don't understand your position are simply ignorant.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're dismissing mainstream society as ignorant.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Not mainstream. I think if you see circumstances or situations where the niqab has been an issue, if we delve deeper, if people actually understood why I'm wearing it and they don't tar us all with the same brush, that niqab wearers are all oppressed subjugated woman, then I believe that they would be more welcoming to them. I do believe that a lack of ignorance is a big factor there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the fact is, you're asking for understanding from the mainstream society, but you're not prepared to show any to them. Why not? And did you just dismiss them as ignorant?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
It's not so much as dismissive. I do believe that as well as ignorance, I do believe there's a lot of media hype and distortion.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But societies rely on compromise, don't they. You're asking for understanding but you're not prepared to give any understanding to those people who might be concerned or frightened or put ill at ease, but you dismiss their fears as ignorance.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
No, no, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You do. You said they were ignorant.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Yes, I did say they're ignorant but I didn't say I'm not doing anything about it. I work for a lot of non-Muslim organisations, and for the people that approach me, and I've done that myself, I've taken a first step, to say that yes, this is why I wear it. And Alhamdulillah (Praise to God), I have to say that the reception I've got is 'how interesting', 'how refreshing to see that', and yes, I have done that, taken the first step, and if other people took the first step towards me, if they actually understood why I wear it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, but if kids are frightened or old people are frightened because they're not used to seeing somebody veiled, you show no understanding of their position. You're basically saying, 'Take it or leave it,' there's no compromise. Societies, particularly free societies, rely on people exercising their freedoms with a view to trying not to offend other people, so you may have the freedom to wear the niqab but you're not taking account of people's reaction to it. It may be quite legitimate but you think it's just ignorant. So it's an inconsistent position you have here.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
The view that people have of the veil, is it just their own or is it because it has been worked on, it has been distorted or it's been blown out of proportion, especially in the recent months? Is it because there's been a lot of media hype in the media, a lot of distortion about the veil, is that why people have this ignorant attitude, so to speak?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Again, a question I think we'll be putting to the audience. Thank you very much indeed. Reem Maghribi, can I ask you to speak for the motion please.

REEM MAGHRIBI
I am for the motion. I do believe that the veil is a barrier to integration. We certainly have the right to practise our religion. However, like most rights, that is not absolute. There are five fundamentals of Islam, and the British government has ensured that we have the ability to practise those beliefs and those rights. In fact they have undertaken many initiatives to promote integration through legislative and cultural activities. The veil is not in the Koran, it is not a requirement of Islam. It was practised centuries later and is more of a custom. With regards to human rights, there was a case recently of a teacher who wanted to wear the veil. She taught five-year-olds. She wanted to wear the veil in front of her male colleagues while teaching. Well, what about the rights of those toddlers? Do they not precede the rights of the teacher? Do they not have the right to communicate openly with that teacher, to not have to worry about concerns of sexuality? They're too young to understand that, as is the 12-year-old now fighting for the right to wear a veil in an all-girls' school. We should ask what are her motivations for wanting to cover up in front of the male teacher and that's what the British welfare system is there for. They are concerned with her interests as a pupil and the pupils in her school. We also have to understand that Britons fear the unknown. After 9/11 and 7/7, they do not have an understanding of Muslims, and we have become 'the other'. So it was a few unrepresentative people who carried out those attacks, but if we as Muslims are to represent ourselves and our religion as the pragmatic and peaceful religion that it is, then certainly fighting for a right that is not required by Islam, that instils fear in others, that hinders communication, and under the banner of Islamic rights, then ultimately we're hindering integration, and this in fact is mentioned in the Islamic doctrine, The Abuse of Rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Reem Maghribi, thank you very much indeed.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sitting opposite you is Ayshah Ismail. She teaches in a school. How much more integrated do you want her to be? She pays her taxes, she votes.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Yes, I do understand that she participates in society, but the society in which she lives sees her as 'the other'.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Some do, not society as a whole, some do.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Many British people feel that Muslims have put themselves in a position by presenting themselves physically as different, they see us as 'the other.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
But in a free society, you choose the level of your integration.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Very few rights are absolute rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Unless you want to live in North Korea, for instance. I presume you're not holding up that as a great society to integrate into.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Even in a democracy, very few rights are absolute, and if one person's right hinders another to feel safe, to feel free, to be able to communicate, then that is what makes it not an absolute right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you ban the veil?
REEM MAGHRIBI
I wouldn't ban it outright, but I would want discussion with Muslim groups in order to ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When you say you wouldn't ban it outright, you would want to get to a stage where it was banned?
REEM MAGHRIBI
No, not outright, where there was legislation that in my opinion this is important there was an age restriction, so that a 12-year-old ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So a restriction imposed and backed up by law?
REEM MAGHRIBI
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's a dangerous path to go down.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Yes, but not a complete ban, not to say women cannot wear the veil.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but the restriction?
REEM MAGHRIBI
But certainly you can't wear it in court, you couldn't wear it if you wanted to be a police officer.
TIM SEBASTIAN
An age restriction on how you dress.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What's next, age restriction on how you tie your tie or how you put your shoes on? What's next?
REEM MAGHRIBI
No, we're concerned with the welfare of the children. A 12-year-old in a girls' school wants to cover up in front the male teachers. Why aren't we concerned that she feels under attack by this teacher, or she feels like a sexual object? She's 12, she shouldn't have to feel this way. And that her parents encourage her to insist that she wants to wear that veil or she won't go to school, that's sending a message that, 'Oh, I am a sexual object and this male teacher's looking at me.' She shouldn't have to have those concerns, and 5-year-old children noticing, and they notice everything, that, oh, their female teacher covers up when a man comes in, ooh, what's the difference between men and women, how do they interact? You don't want to get into sexual territory with 5-year-olds.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Reem Maghribi, thank you very much indeed.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Thank you. Ahmed Younis, interesting that you were clapping for the other side, so let's ask you to speak against the motion, thank you.

AHMED YOUNIS
Well, I'm exercising my Muslim values in clapping for the other side. And dear brothers and sisters, it seems to me that the most reasonable thing to do here is to turn down this motion. It seems that symbols alone cannot be a block of integration but concepts themselves can. For example if a Muslim believes that voting in a Western society is haram (forbidden), that seems to me to be a fundamental block in his or her ability to integrate into a society. But for a person to go to their congressman or senator, to go to their Member of Parliament and say, 'You represent me, I have problems in my district, I need you to come and talk to the community, we need to find solutions together,' you're telling me that this is someone that is not integrated? You're telling me that this is someone who is not part and parcel of a society that is built upon comity amongst a group of people. To be quite frank with you, I think that much of this debate is not about the identity crisis of Muslims. It is about the identity crisis of the United Kingdom and many European societies. What is British identity? I can surely tell you what American identity is. It is founded upon a specific set of principles that the founders came to put to fruition, and that many communities, be they at the hands of oppression or be they the people that had the power, have found a way to bring those values to their daily life and to their lives on a regular basis. And finally I would say this analysis, it enables a clash of civilisations. It supports and legitimises those that say there is a fundamental disjunct, there is a fundamental friction between the world of Muslims and Islam and the world of the West. And I would humbly pose it for all you that this will simply increase the violence and the extremism, it certainly will not decrease it at all. And at the end I would just like to say, many a right has been taken away without a law that says that you do not have that right, and I surely worry when we are expected to believe in the good faith of governments to allow us to exercise our rights. Thank you, sir.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Younis, thank you very much indeed. The former Foreign Secretary in Britain, Jack Straw, caused a lot of controversy by asking some of his constituents to remove the niqab. Any problem with that?
AHMED YOUNIS
Well, if one man's comforts supersedes the importance of another person's comfort ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who said it was superseding? He was merely asking.
AHMED YOUNIS
Well, he was asking because he feels uncomfortable. That means that he believes that his comfort is more important than ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, no, it's not a discussion of more important, he asked whether they would mind, they didn't mind. As it happened, they took the veil off.
AHMED YOUNIS
And they are free to do so.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They were free to do so, and yet they were free to keep it on. He didn't say, 'I'm not going to talk to you unless you take your veil off.' It wasn't prescriptive. He was merely asking them to come a little bit into his comfort zone, as they were asking him to come into theirs. That's fair, isn't it, in a democratic society?
AHMED YOUNIS
Oh well, it seems to be based on this concept of multi-culturalism which means, 'I'll give a little bit away of what I am.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, it's compromise, that's how societies are supposed to work.
AHMED YOUNIS
No sir, that's not how societies are supposed to work.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No? So you don't want people compromising in society? That's going to be a pretty prescriptive society you're recommending here.
AHMED YOUNIS
No, no, no. There is a difference between us compromising so that we have much less than we came in with, and us finding a third alternative, a third solution that is based on a pluralism, a pluralism that says that there are founding principles that bring us together, but I can be 100% Muslim and 100% American without any dissonance or friction between them. So I would humbly suggest to you, sir, that I do not have to give up any of what I believe in my deen (religion), in my way of life, in order to be a fully contributing component of a Western society.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And what about recognising other people's concerns, which you don't share, recognise that your freedom might impinge on their concerns?
AHMED YOUNIS
You're absolutely right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You won't even go down that road.
AHMED YOUNIS
No, of course I will, Tim, of course. We must always recognise the concerns of others and I am not here saying ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you would recognise and dismiss them.
AHMED YOUNIS
Oh well, sir, I am not obligated to take upon myself the ignorance of others. I am simply obligated to allow them to exercise their beliefs.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Younis, thank you very much indeed.

TIM SEBASTIAN
The lady in the front row. You have a question?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening, Mr. Sebastian. You're as provocative as ever tonight, so I recognise you immediately. I must say that the four of them have really discussed their points very well, but I think that freedom of choice is freedom of choice. We have to bear up with punks, we have to bear up with hippies, we have to bear up with a lot of, you know, freaks in the society. So I think that the person herself or himself will eventually decide when to give it up. I personally, when I teach, it puts me a bit ill-at-ease to find some of my students with a niqab.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it's a barrier?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, it's not a barrier.
TIM SEBASTIAN
If you're ill-at-ease, it doesn't assist then, does it.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
They put me ill-at-ease because, well, I think that their eyes have much more mischief than their hair.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lord Ahmed.
LORD AHMED
in a society where a veil is probably seen as alien, as I said earlier on, where people fear, there's nothing wrong with those in a free society, if you're a punk or if you're wearing a short skirt or a niqab, there's nothing wrong with that, but can all of those people participate fully in a society, can they get a job? People with punk hair, can they get a job as a receptionist, in the banks, in the police service? Well, I'm afraid they don't. Actually in reality, what you're actually doing, you're restricting. We're not talking about religion, if it's a religious symbol like the hijab, this (niqab) is not a religious symbol. This is a sign of defiance and some of it has happened because of the American policies, the great values that Mr. Ahmed has been talking about. The Asian young people who have been doing it, their mothers wear the burqa, they don't wear a niqab and they've do ne it now just to ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let Ahmed Younis reply to that.
AHMED YOUNIS
What's so problematic here Nazir is that you are defining integration as being able to sit comfortably in every nook and cranny of Western society. I promise you I am fully integrated into America, I am not interested in walking into bars, I am not interested in supporting any kind of prostitution, I am not interested in supporting any injustice, but I am fully a part of Western society. There are many women that do not wear a veil that are not interested in becoming pirates or not interested in becoming police officers, so this zero sum game, all or nothing, you either fit everywhere or you fit nowhere, this is a double standard. It's not a standard that you make for any white Westerner.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the fourth row, your question please, sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is that GCC countries (Gulf Cooperation Council - a grouping of six Gulf states) are involved in supporting those radicals who are promoting the veil. People like me who are moderate are not welcome to go to conferences, seminars etc. So in regards to security, how do I know that a niqab wearer is not a man wearing a veil going make some trouble somewhere in our petro-chemical industry?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm not sure that any of our panel particularly can respond to your question.
AHMED YOUNIS
Allow me to just pick up on one point, and that's the word 'moderate'. In the West, we are forced as Muslims to define moderate as a point on the spectrum between Conservative and Liberal. But of course for us as Muslims, we know one can be religiously conservative and a moderate, and one can be religiously liberal and a moderate, because the litmus test for moderation exists in the Koran, they do not have to do with one's political ideologies. A moderate is not someone who goes to the West and tells those governments what they want to hear, because then Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden and Muammar Gaddafi were moderates. A moderate is someone who follows the sunna (traditional social and legal custom and practice that constitutes proper observance of Islam) of the prophets of the law in the Koran.
REEM MAGHRIBI
The question of the veil is not in the Koran, and it was only practised centuries later, the face veil was only practised centuries later, after Islam's birth. It's not a requirement of Islam.
AHMED YOUNIS
And we are in full agreement on that. And this is not a religious discourse. I am not arguing that the veil is a part of Islamic law.
REEM MAGHRIBI
But when we present it, we present it as an Islamic right. People now think ...
AHMED YOUNIS
It's not an Islamic right.
REEM MAGHRIBI
But that is how it's presented. I am a Muslim and I practise the five fundamentals, and I believe I am a Muslim, but I do not belong to the image that Muslims in Britain have given themselves by fighting for something frankly so irrelevant compared to what's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we have the gentleman in the fourth row please?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to Lord Ahmed. Sir, you have reported that 57% of the British community believe that Muslims and their society are not doing enough to show a sign of good faith, and you say by removing the niqab that's a step in that direction. But I say we celebrate diversity and freedom but how can you celebrate democracy when you are forbidding an individual's choice and a person's right? That's my question.
LORD AHMED
Thank you. Integration is a two-way process. I think you're absolutely right that British society also needs to reach out and make sure that Muslims feel part of British society, and that's why I'm saying that we need to also enjoy the wealth of our nation. We need to be participating. These are some of the faults that we have. You see, with all due respect, Ayshah, when she talked about her role in integration in a school, she teaches in an Islamic school, she goes to a supermarket probably run by a Muslim and in the community ...
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Lord Sainsbury. (former chairman of the British supermarket chain Sainsbury's)
LORD AHMED
The point is, we have parallel communities in Britain today, and that's not helping the society.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Ayshah Ismail, you want to come back on this.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
It's fair to say, Lord Sainsbury is not a Muslim, he's a Jew.
AHMED YOUNIS
And the getto-isation of Muslims... 
LORD AHMED
But the school that you teach is that a Jewish school as well?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
No, no, no, I'll come to that. I have chosen to work in a Muslim school and that was actually before I took up the niqab. Yes, it is easier for me to teach without my niqab.
LORD AHMED
Would you have gotten a job in a mainstream school?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
No. Personally speaking, from a teaching perspective, I don't feel I could teach with a niqab. However, for me that's not ...
LORD AHMED
I rest my case.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
No, no, let's not rest my case. For me, I don't see that as taking a step backwards. What I actually see is, yes, I have taken a step sideways. There are particular niches in the community that I will fit in a lot easier. That does not necessarily mean, like Ahmed said, I don't have to put a tick in every box that I should be viable for everything. There are particular things that I will fulfil a lot better and I can do at the same time being at ease with my deen (religion).
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you pay a price, don't you, for wearing the niqab?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Yes, I do. But does that mean that I'm not a fully contributing member of my society?
REEM MAGHRIBI
I think it's wonderful that you work in a Muslim school and you want to represent and help your community, but unfortunately you've put yourself, you've given yourself a barrier that when British people want to hear you, automatically they see you as 'the other', so however wonderful, whatever your words are going to be, they've already downgraded you. It's an awful feeling, and we have so many big issues to talk about that it's in our own benefit not veil ourselves, not to put a barrier between ourselves and those in whose society, whose country we now belong.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
I'm an active member of the Stop the War Coalition.
REEM MAGHRIBI
That's preaching to the converted, they already believe, they already are fighting for the same cause.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
I'm just talking about getting my words across, and I've got a rally to speak to on Wednesday night. I have no problem whatsoever in conveying my message about my anti-war stance, that yes, the war in Iraq was wrong, and I don't want to go down that road by the way, but ...
LORD AHMED
But would you stand for local elections and stand as a candidate?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
And the non-Muslims in the audience and the Muslims have no problem in listening to my words, and I have a good effect on them. I don't want to stand for local elections.
LORD AHMED
But how can you represent your people if you were no t in a place where you have power? The Stop the War Coalition is good, but it is only a campaigning organisation. You have to be working as a councillor, as a Member of Parliament. You need to be in power, in places of power where you can help people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let her answer.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
But Lord Ahmed, we're not talking about representing people. Reem made a point that I will find it difficult getting my words across. No, I don't.
REEM MAGHRIBI
You're preaching to the converted in the Stop the War Coalition. They do fabulous work, but you actually have become a representation of me, and that's not fair, because I want to be heard, and when people hear that I'm Muslim, they automatically assume, 'Oh, radical, they want to wear a veil.' This is an image that has been put on and it doesn't represent me.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Younis, you want to come in.
AHMED YOUNIS
You want to super-impose your perspective upon her perspective.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Should I as a Muslim be represented by someone who's not veiled?
REEM MAGHRIBI
I think as Muslims it's in our interest, if we want to be heard by the West and we all agree they misunderstand us completely, we have big issues to fight, and they refuse to listen to us because they see us as backward because we sexualise women by making them cover their face. I am not a sexual object. I want to be involved in politics, I want to be heard.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, very briefly, let me just ask Ahmed Younis to make a point very briefly and then we're going to move on.
AHMED YOUNIS
I must humbly ask Nazir, did the chicken come before the egg? Was it not a parallel society? Were Muslims in Europe not living in a parallel ghetto-ised society before the face veil ever came around? Are we not blaming ourselves for the oppression that has been brought upon us because of the lack of an ability to be part and parcel of society? I mean, you are a member of the House of Lords. It seems to me that you would take responsibility initially for this parallel life, this ghetto-ised existence before you are to ask a Muslim sister to take away something that defines her identity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Briefly. We have a lot of questions out there.
LORD AHMED
You have to understand, Muslims have been making progress in British society. There are no no-go areas. There are 10 members in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords, and I have to say, the first one has just entered in the (US) Congress and I welcome that. You need a lot of work to catch up with the British society, the way British has embraced Muslims and Islam in the United Kingdom.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is about nudism. Do you think if someone on the street came out nude, is that called diversity and should it be allowed?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ayshah Ismail.
LORD AHMED
No.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why not?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
No. I believe that it is infringing on other people, I know, I don't want to contradict myself. Yes, I maybe make people feel uncomfortable. I think a nude person would be infringing other people's comfort zones in terms of you've given them no choice. I am covered. I think in a society where modesty is prevalent to a certain extent, I think a nude person versus a covered person, a covered person would be a lot less in-your-face so to speak.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Reem Maghribi.
REEM MAGHRIBI
That's just talking about your comfort zone, but no, it's unacceptable because the majority feel it infringes their freedoms and their rights, and the same has happening in Britain. People voiced that they feel somebody covered infringes their freedom and their safety and their rights, and in fact, Ahmed, it happened recently, somebody escaped the police by wearing a veil. She made people feel unsafe. They couldn't be identified.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
But Reem, you could say that about a lot of symbols. Let's take for example the balaclava that's used in winter. That is a symbol that can be abused, and I agree, there will be abuse of the veil.
REEM MAGHRIBI
The balaclava is not allowed to be worn in certain areas and certain offices. That's what we're saying about the veil, in certain areas and certain positions of responsibility, sections of society, it shouldn't be allowed to be worn, not a complete ban ...
AYSHAH ISMAIL
In what sections would that be? In what sections should it not be allowed?
REEM MAGHRIBI
Where it's a security issue, where it infringes the rights of others, in my opinion in schools.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
But this is fine. Just take for example, my understanding of Islam, that it is not as black and white as that. I flew over here, I had to remove my veil for security issues, for my passport, and that was fine. Islam does not say that, you know, you put others at risk with your beliefs either.
REEM MAGHRIBI
We're not insisting on a complete ban. What we're saying is, Muslims are doing themselves no favour by making themselves 'the other' because we won't get heard on the bigger issues of Iraq and Afghanistan, because the British people don't want to hear us, they don't connect with us.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I think we've covered that issue. Lady in the third row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Just listening to the debate, I was just wondering how come the niqab is such a big deal. I mean, there are other religious groups who have identifications. It could be a dress or a ring or any of those kinds. Why do we always sit and debate about this and not about any of the other kinds of coverings.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, actually this in fairness to the Doha Debates, this is the first time we've debated this issue. Lord Ahmed.
LORD AHMED
Well, in Britain people wear the hijab, people wear the salwar kameez (a traditional dress worn by both women and men in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India and Pakistan), they wear all sorts of dresses. We don't have a problem with that. People can wear whatever they like. We have a society that allows that. We have as I said 13 major religions, 300 languages that are spoken in London, we have no problem with people wearing turbans, the hijab or even their religious dress. The niqab, for all the points that have been made earlier on, is a sign of separation because there's a fear of the unknown, because it's a new phenomenon within the young radical people within Britain, because people think that those who become radical will become extremist, they may lead them into even further extremism like those who were involved with 7/7, God forbid, or anything else. My worry is that a person wearing the niqab will become a symbol of Muslims and Islam, and will exclude me and many others from representing my point of view.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Lord Ahmed, can I just say one thing. When we're talking about niqab wearers, we're talking about a minority within a minority. The Muslims are already a minority so we're talking about the hundred, the hundreds, of women actually covering. But can you please tell me, of the niqabi-clad women, how many have committed any crimes? How many have actually been a threat to society? We're the most if anything peaceful, law-abiding citizens of the country.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think that was the issue actually, was it?
REEM MAGHRIBI
I want to remind people what this debate is about. It's not about whether we have the right to wear the veil, it's about whether the veil hinders integration, and it does, and it's been proven to do that in Britain at the very least because they see us as 'the other', and they don't only see people wearing a veil as the other, because people wanting to wear a veil have fought under the right of Islamic rights, and therefore they've hindered integration for all Muslims.
AHMED YOUNIS
Let's say that we could clearly articulate that the veil, the niqab, is not a barrier to integration in other Western societies such as the United States and Canada, would you still support this position which is that the niqab is a barrier to integration in the West? I am telling you this conversation is irrelevant in the United States, and that leads me to believe your position is born out of your context.
LORD AHMED
In America, Muslims are second-class citizens anyway, my friend, since 9/11 and the way they've been treated, Abu Ghraib and ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think before this breaks down completely, we'll move on to the gentleman who's waving the folder, right at the back.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to Miss Reem. I would like to quote you; you said the niqab stops communication between students and their teacher if the teacher is wearing a niqab. How can that happen? Is the niqab like gagging the teacher or is it attacking students? It's not stopping them from talking, and communication is talking, so I mean, Miss over there, she's wearing the niqab and I understood everything she said, and there was no problem.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Other than the fact that Ayshah's wearing a microphone under her veil, my concern wasn't about the ability to communicate, it was about 5-year-olds wondering why is a woman covering up when a man comes in. Then they start considering that men and women are different. Then they get into the territory of sexuality, and I believe 5-year-olds should not go anywhere near that, so that was my main concern.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, lady with the niqab in the third row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I don't always wear the niqab. I sometimes I wear niqab. I'm a British-born professional and I do feel that your point of view Lord Nazir, you're just playing your political cards right. I don't feel you're fairly representing the community. As I said, I don't always wear niqab, but I would defend the right of the people that do want to wear the niqab. I would also question you and Reem, you say that if we want to integrate, we have to be like the society. Believe me, I've lived for 35 years in the UK. You will never be fully accepted, as long as you want to call yourself a Muslim, you can integrate but don't assimilate.
REEM MAGHRIBI
But why add to it? If you already feel that you're treated differently, why add to it by also covering your face? You already feel that you're separated or the British society have separated you. Instead of trying to meet them in the middle and encourage them to have a dialogue with you, you're covering your face. I mean, what does that say to them? 'I don't care actually. I don't want this dialogue.'
AUDIENCE Q (F)
There is a very basic point of the people that do wear niqab that I do have to defend, and they do believe it is Islamic, so they're not doing it for me or you, they're doing it for their love of their deen (religion) and for the love of Allah, so you have to respect that.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Islam is a thinking man's religion and it's a progressive one. Abuse of rights, it's very important in Islam, and the abuse of rights doctrine of Islam says that no right exists absolutely if it actually affects the progress and the message of Islam, and if we by wearing the veil are showing that we are not willing to communicate, then we are actually abusing Islam.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I put on a hijab at British university. That was my own choice through my own education.
REEM MAGHRIBI
I have no problem with the hijab.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, so why not?
REEM MAGHRIBI
Some people do have a problem with hijab, mainstream British society.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Of course they don't recognise hijab.
REEM MAGHRIBI
We're talking about the niqab. You're worried about the hijab so you add to it by wearing the niqab.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Why is the hijab all right then? Of course I know when I wear a hijab in British mainstream society, I am looked at as different, so for my sisters who want to wear a niqab, why refuse them that right? It is their basic right.
REEM MAGHRIBI
People feel unsafe.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just ask you a question. Why do you alternate between wearing the niqab and not wearing the niqab? What is the niqab to you?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The basic reason is a positive barrier, it is as a protection. The whole idea of covering and the hijab is for protection, modesty and most importantly obeying the laws, the Koran and the sunna (traditional social and legal custom and practice that constitutes proper observance of Islam). So it's just the religion, it's just something religious. Now, for some people I know, they really believe wearing the niqab is a religious obligation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But sometimes you want that protection and sometimes you don't.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, absolutely. Sometimes when I go down to the souq (market) here in Doha and I'm at the fish market and it's full of men, I enjoy wearing my niqab because I don't want to be stared at by all those men. It depends exactly where I am and at what time. Some people like my sister in the UK, would never take her niqab off. I respect her right. She's not going to be a fully integrated member possibly of society, but she has the right to at least wear the niqab.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I just ask the audience, are there any other niqab-wearers who would like at this point to say something about it? The lady there in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
First of all I wanted to ask Miss Reem a question please. Who said that niqab is not mentioned in the Koran? Who said that niqab is not a religious dress, it's not a religious obligation? And even if it's not something that's loved by, that God loves, the point is, we're not here to discuss whether it is in Islam or not. We're not discussing whether there's an obligation or not. We're just discussing if it's a barrier or not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your position on that is obviously it's not, it's not a barrier?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
It's not a barrier. You're supposed to accept me as I am, and this point of us being in the second place or whatever, we've made it. We are developed people. If we do the same as other developed countries, if we work harder, we're not going to be in second place any more, we're going to be in the first place actually, and people are going to accept us as we are.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let me ask Lord Ahmed to speak to that.
LORD AHMED
Well, first Surat al Al-Ahzab, verses 58-60, when Allah Subhana wa Ta'ala (be He glorified and exalted) tells his prophet to tell the Muslim women and he's ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please let him speak, please.
LORD AHMED
I'm saying it in English, I'm not an Arab, but basically it says to tell them, tell Muslim women and your wives to cover themselves and to put a cover over their face so they are not harassed. My point is, today they're harassed because of that so it's time to take it off.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
May I please respond to that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This is a subject for scientists to discuss, because they know more of the Islamic religion.
REEM MAGHRIBI
We are all scientists, we are all part of the growth of Islam.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'm sorry we're not fully aware of what Islam says on this point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much. Let's take a question from the lady in the fifth row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening. First I wanted to say the first speaker, he said that we have to comply with all the laws that are in the society that we live in. Well, differences are what makes humans unique. We are all different and we have to be accepted that way. The second speaker, she said that she's wearing niqab because it's in Islam. Obviously it's not in Islam, it's not in Koran, and the Prophet Mohammed has said that you cannot make halal of Allah haram (something right when God has said it's forbidden) on yourself.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
If we go through this whole thing of it, we could be here all night, and the thing is, it's my personal opinion, I'm not imposing it on any Muslim women out there. It's my understanding of Islam and if I choose that understanding, then it's up to me. That does not mean that I want every woman to dress like me, and I think it's pretty fair, I mean, you get different interpretations of Christianity. Not all Christians believe or practise their religion the same. Not all Jews practise their religion the same, and allow me to take my own understanding. By no means do I profess to be a scholar, I'm not, I'm far from it, but this is my personal understanding.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Of course. And the last speaker, he said that you can be 100% American and 100% Muslim. Well, not after 9/11. You cannot be 100% American and 100% Muslim after ...
AHMED YOUNIS
Why? What laws changed after 9/11 that said that you have to pray three raka'as (units of prayer) instead of four raka'as?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, they're your personal rights. Those are all the things that you can do in private, but when you go to the public, do people accept you?
AHMED YOUNIS
I'm on television almost every single day and believe you me, come to the train station with me, people accept me.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady in the front row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
We're hearing a lot about how the veil isn't integration, you're seen as the outsider. I'd just like to ask the question, does any of the fault lie on the other side? Does any of the fault lie on the side of those who are seeing a barrier, those who do not look beyond a simple piece of cloth, to try to get to know what's behind that. Are we valuing an image? I remember personally the first time I saw someone in a niqab. I did not grow up a Muslim, I am a convert, but I thought that they were very different, but then when I saw them without it, I was frankly, I was ashamed at how much I had let a simple piece of cloth be a barrier, so my question is, to all panellists, does some of the blame lie with the other side?
REEM MAGHRIBI
Yes, very much so. However, they have the upper hand, they are stronger. If we are in, we're talking about Western society, we, even if it was three or four generations ago, moved to their country and we want to be integrated, we're putting the barrier up. It is certainly partly their ignorance, but if we want them to listen to us, it's our responsibility then to make the change, to have them listen to us, and your example shows that people, I mean, we live on public image, that's life, that's politics, and that's what happened. If we want to change, if we want to be stronger, then we have to do it, we can't expect them to do it for us. So it's not about the right to wear it, it's about look at our situation, our circumstance now, do we want them to listen to us? Yes. Should we put a barrier, a literal barrier up for them not to listen to us, to have an extra excuse not to listen to us? I don't think so.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you think of that? Do you accept that argument?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I think again you're kind of putting the blame on the other side.
REEM MAGHRIBI
The responsibility, not the blame.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Responsibility, but is there no responsibility for the other side. We're saying we want to be...
REEM MAGHRIBI
They're stronger, they don't need to.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
We're saying we want to be a multi-cultural society. What is multi-cultural? Multi- cultural is just a hijab and not a niqab?
REEM MAGHRIBI
Let's be realistic.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Who decides that?
REEM MAGHRIBI
Let's be realistic.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
You and I decide it because we are comfortable seeing someone's face but how about we learn to be comfortable seeing someone's eyes.
REEM MAGHRIBI
How are you going to teach them, how are you going to teach them?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
You tell me. You tell me. We've got brains, we're smart people. Let's share.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Yes, but compromise. The very step, getting somebody, this works in life, business, politics, the very first step to getting somebody to hear you, to listen to you is to move closer to them.
AHMED YOUNIS
So do you feel like in the West when Jewish Americans were oppressed and the Holocaust was happening and people were taking off their yarmulkes and they were changing their names and they stopped eating kosher food, would you support that, you support someone leaving who they are in a society that is supposed to be built on pluralism, in order that they yield to the oppressive majority, so that they can make the oppressive majority feel comfortable? Do I as a person ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let her answer that.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Is the Jewish community, based on your argument, you know the US better, is the Jewish community strong in the US? Yes. Did they have to sacrifice to get there? Yes.
AHMED YOUNIS
No, no, no, no.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Do they have a strong cultural identity now? Yes.
AHMED YOUNIS
No, no. It just so happens that that's the example that I used. Let's use a race based example, so let's use a race based example. So does a black American have to act like a white man in order to get a job in a white man's firm?
REEM MAGHRIBI
What does acting like white man mean? What have they given up?
LORD AHMED
What happened in New Orleans during the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we have just one person speaking at a time, otherwise nobody will be able to understand you.
AHMED YOUNIS
This idea that the person who is suffering oppression has the primary responsibility to alleviate the discomfort of the oppressor is an unjust concept.
REEM MAGHRIBI
We're talking about the real world. We're not talking about what's just, we're talking about the real world. You want justice, you move closer to them. You endear yourself to them, then you bring them to your side, to your side. We're talking about real life, politics, life, religion. What are we going to do, just sit there and say take it or leave it? You know what they'll do, they'll leave it and we'll stay behind.
AHMED YOUNIS
We're not saying take it or leave it. We're saying make a space in the public square for each individual or community that wants to realise their identity in a specific way.
REEM MAGHRIBI
But they're not doing it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we've gone as far as we can on that question. I think we'll go to the gentleman in the fourth row please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
This debate so far has been on women wearing the niqab. But I as a man, and there's an idea of mine from 1998, sometimes I actually chose to cover my face as a Muslim as well, and that is because I didn't want to be recognised in certain situations because I was doing certain things where I was actually helping say police clean up a drug community or something like that, and it was actually appreciated. So far this issue has been about women, when actually men sometimes also wear the niqab especially in countries in West Africa like Mauritania, and it's never been a problem. The question for the panel is; if it's a barrier, it's a barrier to whom, to the Muslims, because it was never a barrier to me.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lord Ahmed.
LORD AHMED
I have no problem with the niqab being worn in Saudi Arabia or in Doha or in Tehran or anywhere else. I see in Europe there's a trend in Holland, the niqab has been banned, in France, in Germany. I don't want the niqab to be banned from the UK from everywhere. What I want is a sensible approach by Muslims that we are part of British society, a society that has given us equality more than any other country in the world, but there is a fear, there is a genuine concern and I believe as Muslims, we have a responsibility that we make, I know one hadith (traditions relating to the words and deeds of Mohammed) of the Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, is that if there is any non-Muslim who fears Muslims, fears about his life or his property, that Muslim cannot be a Muslim. Today I tell you, my brother, there are millions of people who fear from some of these extremists. I don't want my religion to be seen as extremist. We want to engage with the rest of the world and we want to have that dialogue, and the only way we'll do it is by going halfway.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sorry, Ayshah, you wanted to say something?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Yes. Lord Nazir, you say a sensible approach, you want us to take a sensible approach. What would that sensible approach mean? A self-imposed ban of the Muslims?
LORD AHMED
Well, obviously we have to look at this. Is it an identity crisis? Is it because it's Islamic dress, that it is because it's in the Koran? Why did young people only suddenly realise that this is an Islamic identity in the last 5 to 10 years?
AHMED YOUNIS
They didn't have rights that they're allowed to fight for, Islamic rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me, please, let him finish.
LORD AHMED
Because we are talking about a religion, because we are seen, we are perceived as the enemy within the society, and then this, the whole niqab business and the veil is related to a religion. Because if somebody with the veil says something wrong, for me, when there's a gesture by a woman with the veil, it shows that all Muslims are like that. I don't want it to be like that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're going to hear a bit more from this side.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
You could say that for hijabi woman, if a hijabi woman makes a comment, so would you then expect her to remove her hijab because she represents Muslims as well.
LORD AHMED
You want me to answer that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes. It was directly to you.
LORD AHMED
Well, when a hijabi woman, because you are making this as an Islamic issue, then obviously you are taking responsibility as for the whole Muslim community, rather than as an individual, as a British citizen who does something wrong.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'd like to hear her response too.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
But Lord Ahmed, anybody who has a visible sign of Islam on them will be associated with you, so are you saying that every Muslim removes every, any piece of Islamic identity?
LORD AHMED
Absolutely not.
REEM MAGHRIBI
It's the act of wearing the veil itself that speaks.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Yes. Lord Nazir has got a problem with that. If I say something wrong, so it's going to be reflected back on him. Had I not been wearing this, had I been wearing a hijab and I said something wrong, it would still be reflected back on him. So do you want me to take this niqab off?
REEM MAGHRIBI
It's more about the act of wearing the veil, and I'd like to respond to the gentleman convert. I don't think you are a man who wears a niqab. You are a Muslim who occasionally covers his face to do good deeds, and the good deeds that you did were signs of the virtue of Islam and you represented us beautifully and that's why people in your community took you into their heart. It wasn't related to you covering your face.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. We're going to go to a lady in the fifth row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening. My question is to the people against the motion, there are enough barriers between the West and Islam. Don't you think that having another barrier is a problem now, especially nowadays?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ayshah Ismail.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Where did those barriers come from? Are they Islamic barriers? Is it because our religion is not accepted, or is it because and I believe so, that is it to media distortion and mass hysteria? Is it because we as Muslims in the West have been demonised due to recent events? So in doing so, should we penalise those that are trying to practise their religion, because of these self-made barriers by the West themselves?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I agree that you have the right to wear the veil, but since you are in a European society and you're trying to integrate in that society, don't you think that we have enough problems and we have really enough of a bad image that wearing a niqab and trying to fight to wear it is not relevant at this time?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
I am fully integrated. I believe I am fully integrated. In terms of bad image, I think that's where the lack of education and the media distortion comes up. If someone is ignorant about Islam, if they have a bad image, then it's our duty to go out there and teach them the true image, but I don't believe that should be done at the expense of your beliefs, and I wouldn't do that at the expense of my beliefs either.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
And how can we teach them, how? By communicating to them?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Yes, by communicating.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I don't think you communicate with them.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
I do it regularly on a daily basis. Let me tell you sister, that it is possible to communicate with non-Muslims and Muslims alike, with this on, believe me.
AHMED YOUNIS
Can I just say very quickly that even the discourse, even the words that we're using, there is no them. I am them, I am a member of a Western society and I am a Muslim and we are creating camps that exist in certain contexts, even in the United States. The second thing, very quickly, there are so many barriers that exist. What about the level of education? What about the level of human rights? What about economic development? What about bridging the divide whether it's leaders like Sheikha Mozah and this debate, or whether it's Brookings Doha or what-have-you, why is it that we go to the peanuts and say that we're going to alleviate the barriers that exist? Why don't we get into the meat and potatoes of the barriers that exist?
REEM MAGHRIBI
We are fighting for the peanuts. We're not fighting for the meat and potatoes. Everybody, the people in the West just see us fighting for the peanuts, forgetting about the meat and potatoes, and that's an abuse of Islamic rights and actually our responsibility as a movement, and there is a doctrine, the abuse of rights, first and foremost you have to, and this is in Islam, you have to consider Islam as a progressive and peaceful religion and promote it as such, otherwise you are abusing it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady in the third row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. My question is to the panel against this motion. Do you believe that the Muslims will in fact get anywhere with this image of extremism that we have? See, this motion is talking about integration into Western society, and even sitting here, I feel that if I was wearing the niqab, I would not be completely accepted and would in fact stand out. Looking around here, and I hear you say that going to the supermarket, you feel completely comfortable. However, think of someone who was not wearing the niqab. Do you feel that you are equally as comfortable? I mean we have to be realistic here.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Walking down the street, to tell you the truth, I sometimes forget I'm covered. Really when I'm walking down the street, I sometimes think, 'Why do people give me funny looks?' and it's then I remember that I'm wearing the veil, and yes, there will be a level of acceptance but, and again, I keep homing on to this argument, if the issue of niqab was explained properly to them, then I don't think that level of acceptance would be different in either of the cases, and I've been there, I've done it as a niqabi and I've done it ...
REEM MAGHRIBI
How do you explain it to them? You said it a number of times, if it was explained to them, if they were educated about the niqab. What's the education here?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Just because I wear niqab, just because I'm blatantly Muslim does not make me extremist because, let's put it, that is where the fear lies.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Sorry, that's not the education, why do you wear it? You said, 'If they understood why I wear it.'
AYSHAH ISMAIL
So you're asking for my understanding as to why I cover, my interpretation?
REEM MAGHRIBI
You said, 'If they understood why I cover, they wouldn't see me as an extremist or a bad person.' Okay, so what is it you would offer them as an explanation.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
What I meant is the fact that they associate me with an extremist Muslim, I'm no longer moderate. For me I'm not practising extreme aspects of Islam. For me, I am practising my day-to-day Islam, so that in fact in itself does not make me extremist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just let the questioner come back in.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Miss Ayshah, you say that, however, do you feel that you have actually gotten anywhere? Have people in fact heard you? Do you feel that women wearing the niqab are completely integrated into society, because surely you have to be realistic and see that Muslims are in fact being portrayed wrongly now?
AYSHAH ISMAIL
They are.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
And we are not getting anywhere by this, and so what Mrs. Reem is saying is true, that we do need to in fact compromise to get somewhere and integrate more into Western society.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
Again, it's at the expense of whose principles? If we're bending over backwards, if we keep on bending over backwards, and you said this point before, we've got to go forward. What happens if they then take a step forward, do we still then keep on going forward?
REEM MAGHRIBI
Which principle is more important, your personal belief and your want to wear the veil, or your responsibility as a Muslim within the Muslim community to move us forward, because we are so far backwards from where we were a thousand years ago. I'd like Ayshah to answer that please.
AYSHAH ISMAIL
In essence, if I do not feel comfortable in my own sphere as a Muslim, how can I be responsible for moving Islam forward, because I don't think I'm doing it in a most viable push, I don't think I'm doing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm sorry, we're going to move on. Gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I want to ask Reem, she said that women who wear a niqab are seen as 'the others'. Why would I care if I'm satisfied and am convinced? Why would I care how people see me? Don't you think if women take off the niqab, then they afterward may take off the hijab and this will make us look more like the West because this is what the West wants? Why do we have to do what they want?
REEM MAGHRIBI
So your first question is, why do you care?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Do you not care at the poor state of the Muslim nations? Do you not care that the West, who are the ones who are seeing us in this bad light, are using it as an excuse to rob us of our rich history, of our culture, of our wealth even? Do you not care that our identity is being used against us?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are they robbing you of your wealth?
REEM MAGHRIBI
As a nation, yes.
LORD AHMED
Can I just say that you may not care but the Muslims who are living in the West do care. In this society, in the Middle East and in the Muslim world, you have no problem. We're not arguing that we shouldn't have niqab in the Muslim world. You don't have to have it. We are living in British society, in European society, where there's a fear. In Holland they have banned it, in France and in Germany they have banned it. There's a trend, for whatever reason, for whatever reason. I don't want it to be banned.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him come back.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I study in UK and I see many women wearing the niqab in the streets and it's OK with them, even with the British citizens, it's okay. I don't see anything that's wrong with that and I don't know what the problem is, people can do what they want. It's freedom of choice. In Qatar we have some Muslim people who wear short skirts and wear bikinis in the swimming pools, and it's okay with us, so why it's not okay with them.
REEM MAGHRIBI
If this was a theological debate, nobody would win, but the argument, the debate today is, does it hinder integration, and it does and we are the ones suffering, because we're not being heard.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I don't believe so. If we do this, we will lose our dignity and our values and our beliefs, that's what I believe.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Wearing the veil?
TIM SEBASTIAN
We have time for one more question. The lady back there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. Good evening. Isn't turning a flimsy piece of material into a physical and psychological barrier further stigmatising women who follow Islam, and I'm saying this as a non-Muslim Westerner. I come from France and I believe that as an educated person, I can accept someone who wears a niqab, and that it doesn't make a difference to me.
REEM MAGHRIBI
Though it's not directly relevant to the argument of whether it hinders integration, I do agree. I think it's unfortunate that we have sexualised women in such a way and that we have been so negative towards men that we seem to say that all they can see women as is sexual objects. We do work both in this community and in the West, we work together, men and women, we have equal rights, and this is a fact, there have been surveys, we now that covering our face is creating a barrier that Western people, particularly British people. In the case that I know, they do not feel that they can relate to us, but we're fighting for that right, even though if they do relate to us, we could fight for bigger rights like the importance of not attacking the next Muslim country.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just ask Ahmed Younis to come in.
AHMED YOUNIS
I'm just going to say, Reem, that it's very problematic to me. I am someone who has no family members that wear the niqab or the hijab, and it is my Western identity that has me sitting on this side of the table, and much of what you're saying sounds quasi socialist or communist, that the individual must give up their own identity, their own freedoms for the benefit of the whole of the community around them. Just leave aside that I'm Muslim, as a Westerner I feel that's not how I run my life. I don't sacrifice an individual's ability to become a part of society for 'the good of the general community.'
REEM MAGHRIBI
But the way it's worked, that's how it is, because they have labelled all Muslims, they have given media time to the more radical or what they call extremists. That's the way it will work. It's intentional because politically they need to suppress us, so they make us look at a whole, they pick the examples that make us look the most fundamental and extreme and so the whole point, concept of Islam is to move us forward.

TIM SEBASTIAN
I think there we've come to the point in the proceedings, ladies and gentlemen, where we're going to vote on the motion, that 'This House believes the face veil is a barrier to integration in the West'. Would you please take your voting machines. If you want to vote for the motion would you press Button 1, the yellow one. If you want to vote against, it's Button 2, the red one, and would you please do that now. All right, there's the result coming up on the screens now. There we have it, 56.7% for the motion, 43.3 against, the motion has been carried. It just remains for me now to thank our audience very much for participating, your lively questions, and thank you very much to our panel of guests for making their way here. This has been a big journey for you, thank you very much indeed. The Doha Debates will be back again next month, please do join us then, but for now from all of us on the team, have a safe journey home, good night, thank you very much, good night.