This House deplores the release of the Lockerbie bomber to Libya

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening and a warm welcome to the first in our sixth series of Doha Debates coming to you from the Gulf State of Qatar and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation.  We face tonight an extraordinarily divisive issue.  A Libyan national convicted of Britain's worst terrorist attack was released in August by the Scottish government on compassionate grounds because he was suffering terminal cancer.  But was compassion appropriate in such a case?  What signal did it send to those convicted of mass murder?  What signal did it send to their victims?  The case has generated enormous and bitter controversy, especially in Britain and America where the release was condemned by President Obama.  This is the first time it's been aired in a public forum in the Arab world.  So there we have it: Libya's Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi allowed to leave Scotland 21 years after Pan Am flight 103 was blown up over Lockerbie, killing 270 people, the crime for which he received a penalty of life imprisonment.  And your role tonight is to decide if letting him go home to die was right or wrong.  Our motion: 'This House deplores the release of the Lockerbie bomber to Libya', and as ever our panel is deeply divided on the issue.  Speaking for the motion, Daniel Kawczynski is a Conservative member of the British parliament, and chair of the all-party House of Commons groups for Libya and Saudi Arabia.  He's currently writing a book called Seeking Gaddafi.  And with him Guma Al-Gamaty, who is a frequent critic of the Libyan leader.  He's a writer and commentator who spent more than 30 years in the UK and been active in Libyan opposition movements.  Against the motion, Mustafa Fetouri, a Libyan professor and political commentator.  He lived more than 20 years in the West before returning to the job of MBA Director at the Academy of Graduate Studies in Tripoli.  And with him, Jim Swire, whose daughter Flora was among the passengers on Pan Am 103 when it was blown up over Scotland.  He's campaigned tirelessly for the rights of the victims' relatives and has been to Libya and held direct talks with Colonel Gaddafi.  He also visited Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi in jail and remains convinced that the truth about the Lockerbie bombing has not yet been told.  Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. So now let me call first on Daniel Kawczynski to speak for the motion.

DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Thank you very much.  I feel passionately about Anglo-Arab relations.  I believe as a British parliamentarian the Arab world is extremely important: strategically, culturally and economically for the United Kingdom.  That is why I have set up something called the Conservative Arab network in the House of Commons to campaign on behalf of Anglo-Arab issues.  But this was a crime, the worst atrocity imaginable, that was carried out, and Mr. Al-Megrahi was convicted in a court of this heinous crime, and that is why I did not want his release to be carried out whilst we have key outstanding issues with Libya.  I must tell you that a serving British police officer, a young lady, was shot outside the Libyan embassy 25 years ago.  The Metropolitan Police have desperately tried to conclude the investigations into her killer.  They've been to Tripoli on three occasions and yet now the Libyan authorities refuse to allow them to finish their investigations.  I have repeatedly asked to see Colonel Gaddafi, to bring some of these police officers with me so that the investigations can be finished, and yet he refuses to see me, and a recent delegation to Libya was postponed.  So I must tell you, if we are going to build a long, credible, trusting partnership with Libya, it must be done with mutual respect and part of that is to resolve these outstanding issues, and I will not rest until the killer of P.C. Yvonne Fletcher, shot by a Libyan diplomat, has been brought to justice.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Daniel Kawczynski, thank you very much indeed.  You would have held Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi hostage for the killing of somebody else, you believe in that sort of thing, do you?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Well, I believe that ultimately ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... because that's what you're saying.  You know, 'If you don't pursue this case, the case of Yvonne Fletcher who was shot dead 25 years ago, you can't have your dying man back.'  So you're in favour of taking hostages, then?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
I'm not, what I am saying is that the Libyans have played very, very tough, and to be fair to them they have insisted on their citizen being returned to Libya.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They didn't insist, they requested it.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Well, negotiations were very protracted and very tough from what I hear, but we equally in the United Kingdom should not be seeking to have hostages but should be at the same time pressing the case and publicly challenging the Libyans as to why they are obstructing the Metropolitan Police in carrying out their investigations.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you think holding a dying man behind bars until his last breath makes anyone feel better?  It takes the moral high ground to do that?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
The man, as I say, has been convicted ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're as bad as everybody else if Britain does that.  What about showing some mercy?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
I feel very compassionate about the individual, but he has been convicted in a court ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not compassionate enough to want him to go home though.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Well, he is home, isn't he?  My wishes, and I wrote to the Scottish Justice Secretary asking him not to release him..
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm asking what benefit holding him for those final hours, final days of his life would have been to British society or indeed any other society.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
I'll tell you what it would do, it would say very publicly to Colonel Gaddafi that if you want genuine partnership, if you want to move ahead, if you really want to come in from the cold, despite all of these problems that we've had ...  and by the way, the book that I'm writing about him it is very, very even-handed and it starts to talk about ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, but you'd use a human being as a hostage to make that point, a man who is close to death.  Mercy doesn't come into this, does it, as far as you're concerned?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
I would not be happy releasing him whilst, and don't forget, I've met the parents of P.C. Yvonne Fletcher, who for 25 years have just...can you imagine your daughter being killed and not knowing who the killer is, for 25 years?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Daniel Kawczynski, separate case, isn't it?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
No, I think they're very intertwined.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you very much indeed.  And now let me please ask Dr. Mustafa Fetouri to speak against the motion.

MUSTAFA FETOURI
Thanks. Thank you, Tim.  Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, I will not be long, just a couple of points I would like to make as an opening statement, and I just have them as bullet points.  One, I believe the motion should go to us and Mr. Megrahi should have been released actually a long time ago, but I'm, just summarising. One is that the Scottish Justice Minister, Mr. Kenny MacAskill was a courageous man and he believed in the rule of law the law that has a compassionate side to it. That is why he made the right decision to release Mr. Megrahi who was terminally ill.  Two, the UK victims' families, some of whom are addressed by my partner here, Dr. Jim Swire, do believe.. are not actually satisfied with the outcome of the court itself and the final verdict, and waiting for the second appeal could have taken quite a long time.  We are facing a situation where a man could die before the final decision is made. Three, we have to understand that the Scottish justice system, this is in response to the noise that happened after his release, especially in the United States, that the Scottish justice system has a very important and integral part of it which gives room for the compassionate release of convicts, and that's exactly what happened.  Four, there is growing, informed public opinion, professional public opinion that is, which includes lawyers, judges and so on and so forth about the whole case itself: that Mr. Megrahi was actually framed and Libya along with him and there is no case to answer for Mr. Megrahi at all.  The whole conviction was circumstantial.  Finally, this is a man who spent about eight years of his life in jail for a crime that's famous - not just suspected - but actually he never took part in.  Thank you very much, Tim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri, thank you very much indeed.  ‘No case to answer'.  He wasn't convicted in a kangaroo court, he was convicted by three eminent Scottish judges and he had his appeal turned down by a further five Scottish judges, so the fact that he had no case to answer - even the Scottish Criminal Review Board haven't said that he has no case to answer.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Indeed with all due respect to the Scottish justice system, indeed he was convicted but mainly on two grounds:  one fairly circumstantial evidence against him, the other two, the prosecutor just hid the information... most of the evidence ...from the defence that could have acquitted him.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The Scottish Criminal Review Board said that there were inconsistencies and inaccuracies throughout his evidence.  He told a different story before his trial, and told a different story to the commission after it, so what innocent man isn't able to get his story straight in front of a court and in front of a commission that's actually reviewing it? Doesn't seem like a great advert for innocence, does it?
MUSTAFA FETOURI
No, he is actually.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oh he is?  Well it's very easy for you to say he is, but the Commission went into this in some detail, they spent three years, they talked to him on a number of occasions and they said there were key inconsistencies in his evidence.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
I have to answer this, Tim.  First of all we know from the court proceedings that Megrahi never took the stand to testify in his own case.  That's a fact.  The other thing is that ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
He gave pre-trial answers and he gave post-trial answers, Dr. Fetouri you know this, you know this for a fact.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
The same judges who did convict him in the first court in Camp Zeist in Holland -  the presiding judge somehow changed his mind later on and then the commission that overlooks the justice system inside the country, inside Scotland, came back and he decided to look ... came back and decided to accept his appeal...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, excuse me, you're going on a very long time here and people need to get questions in, we need to go to other members of the panel.  But I will just make one point which is that your country accepted responsibility for this.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
No, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'll tell you exactly what they said in a statement in 2003, they said that: 'Libya as a sovereign state has facilitated the bringing to justice of the two suspects charged with the bombing of Pan Am 103 and accepts responsibility for the actions of its officials.' 
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Not for the state..
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's exactly what they said ...
MUSTAFA FETOURI
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... in the same sentence, Pan Am 103, and accepted responsibility.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
I fully agree but not this ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You even paid compensation.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
It's not the responsibility of the state.  They accepted the responsibility for the actions of their citizens,  that is a totally different thing from accepting responsibility as a state.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, it just happens to be in the same sentence as the bombing of Pan Am 103, so maybe they were taking responsibility for something completely different.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Libya accepted the responsibility and they paid compensation just because... to get this thing out of the way. We have suffered enough, we have been under embargo for more than seven years, our economy has been destroyed, and we really need to get this out of the way.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri, you accepted to admit to mass murder in order to get out of sanctions - is this what you're telling the audience?
MUSTAFA FETOURI
No.  The majority of Libyans, 99.9 per cent, always believed and still believe that we are innocent of this as a country and Mr. Megrahi is innocent.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Okay.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.  Mustafa Fetouri, thank you very much indeed.  Now please could I ask Guma El-Gamaty to speak for the motion?

GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Thank you, Tim.  Let me first start by greeting everybody here by our Arabic traditional greeting to say Salaam aleikum which translates [as] 'Peace be upon you all'.  Secondly let me also make it clear that I am a Libyan but I make a very clear distinction between the Libyan regime on one side, and on the other side Libya as a country and its people to whom I proudly belong.  Now, I am here to argue that there is a very important principle and rule here that we should uphold, and that is the rule of law and due process of law.  I am here to argue that it is absolutely wrong to appease [a] totalitarian, oppressive regime and to give in to their political and economical blackmail, and basically to release a man based on a deal, a dirty business deal, between the British government and the Libyan regime.  I feel really sorry for Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi.  He is probably a victim of his own masters, in his own regime who [have] used him.  However remember that Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi fought very hard for many years through his lawyers to have the opportunity to go before the Scottish court again which has the highest integrity and we respect its independence and integrity, and have his case heard again, and yet at the last minute he completely dropped that.  Surely if he is confident of his innocence, why would he miss a golden chance and probably the final chance to clear his name and go home as an innocent free man?  Instead Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi went home as a convicted mass murderer, that's what the whole world knows now, that is what officially is on the statute books, and his children and grandchildren will carry that scar forever, and also my country Libya will always be held responsible for that crime, because Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi missed a golden chance offered to him by the Scottish courts and judiciary to hear his case again and clear his name and clear Libya forever.  What is really needed, the most important basic and human right that Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi needed was for him to have as a priority the best medical care you could have for his cancer condition.  That would be in Scotland, in a hospital in Scotland, and not in Libya where there is absolutely no health care and it's very dire and very poor.  Secondly, his family and children who lived in Glasgow very close to his prison for many years and saw him regularly, could be there at his bedside while he's having treatment.   We don't know that Abdelbaset Megrahi will die in three months, only Allah knows, he could die in six months or even three years and maybe longer, we don't wish that on him.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to have to ask you to finish.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Okay, in just one final sentence, what he should have done is taken the chance to clear his name in front of a Scottish court and probably would have been living - and that process would have been going now and concluded very quickly - then go home as a free man, then I will be very happy for him and support him and congratulate him on that.  That is my case.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Guma El-Gamaty, thank you very much indeed.  The man is suffering terminal cancer, the quality of his health care, whether it's in Libya or in Britain, is immaterial.  He can be made comfortable but if the healthcare comes too late,  that's not an argument for him staying where he was.  The man's decided to go home to die, he decided to go home still protesting his innocence which he's always done.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
But this way he will never prove his innocence because he missed, the only way to prove his innocence ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We may well have a public inquiry in Britain, that would certainly prove his innocence ...
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
There's a difference between a public inquiry ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... if he is innocent.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
The court who convicted him was quite happy to hear and to settle his case again and to hear any fresh evidence, and if he was right, the court would pronounce him innocent and free.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You said that the law wasn't upheld.  It was upheld.  He was tried, he was convicted, he was imprisoned under Scottish law and he was released as Scottish law allows for.  Law was upheld there.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
He was released on compassionate grounds influenced...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... which the law provides for.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Yes, but he went home as a convicted killer, and Libya is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You keep repeating that but I'm saying that the law allows for it, the procedures of the law of Scotland were followed in this case.  Law wasn't junked,   he wasn't simply just let out on a whim and turned away.  There's a perfect provision within the Scottish statutes for letting him out.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Tim, I never said that.  I said ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You said the law wasn't upheld. 
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
No, I never said that.  I said a better option would have been for him to clear his name in the same court that convicted him and then go home as an innocent free person and clear the country Libya as well.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And what about the dirty business deals, where's your evidence of dirty business deals?
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Oh, there is overwhelming, plenty of evidence published.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Give us one, give us one.  The audience might like to hear what these dirty business deals were, if you've got some proof, so far it's all hearsay.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
No, it's not.  The deal that has been concluded by British Petroleum with Libya in 2007 for BP to have exploration rights in Libya and a deal worth $950 million and huge exploration rights for BP - that means they could tap into huge oil and gas fields in Libya.  That was signed in 2007.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So the deal happened.  Where was the connection with Al-Megrahi?   You're saying it was done in 2007?
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
It only happened after Tony Blair and the British government made an implicit promise that the release and return of Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi will be considered and will be included in the Prisoner Transfer agreement.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Guma El-Gamaty, we have to stop you there, this is hearsay -
GUMA EL-GAMATY
It is not hearsay.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much indeed.  Jim Swire, let me now ask you please to speak against the motion. 

JIM SWIRE
Well, Tim, I would like to thank the Qatar Foundation from my heart for this opportunity to peer through a window of free speech into the Arab world.  I'm the father off Flora Swire, who was aged 23, a brilliant young doctor murdered on her way to visit her American boyfriend for Christmas.  I believe there is no degree of desire for revenge that justifies the killing of innocent people, and it is my dearest wish that somehow this appalling event can be turned round in such a way that it can actually produce some benefit.  I think we're all brothers on this planet and we need to acknowledge that and this planet is getting into an increasingly delicate state.  We need to stop killing each other, blowing up each other, shooting each other and learn to live together and do something, indeed, to save our own habitat.  Lockerbie was revenge and exactly who was getting revenge is still open to discussion because we have heard about the doubt surrounding the trial.  Until the trial started, I believed that I would go into that court to hear two of the murderers of my daughter condemned, rightly, to the rest of their lives in prison.  I've had a terrible 20 years, it's been like being a dog under a table where all he can get at are the crumbs that drop off the edge, but during the trial, it was as though the table was suddenly made of glass and I could see, distorted perhaps, upside-down perhaps, some of the things that were passing between the high and the mighty who were arranging this trial.  I've had the privilege of meeting Colonel Gaddafi three times, all UK prime ministers since Lockerbie except Margaret Thatcher who refused to meet with us, and Gordon Brown who after six weeks hasn't even answered a letter from me requesting to meet him.  I've also met Nelson Mandela.  We shouldn't forget that Nelson Mandela was involved in this issue, and the last thing he said to me and the public, just before President Clinton announced that the trial would be held, was: 'No one country should be complainant, prosecutor and judge.'  On the night of Lockerbie about as many people as are here tonight, about the same average age perhaps, were slaughtered in one fell swoop by somebody getting their revenge.  The trial convinced me that it was not Megrahi who was involved in that, and I think we should remember that the UN-appointed special observer to the trial called Professor Hans Koechler of Vienna.  He has said publicly that this verdict was totally impossible and incredible, and he's even gone so far as to say that in order to achieve it, the Scottish Crown Office, that's the prosecuting authority, had acted in a deliberately improper manner.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to have to ask you to finish.
JIM SWIRE
So I want you not to spare me tonight, but to ask me questions as to why I believe that Megrahi was not involved, and I want you to know that just as terrible as it was when she was killed, I don't want her memory to be couched in terms of lies and hypocrisy, a tirade of which I believe I heard in that court.  Thank you, Tim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Jim Swire, thank you very much indeed.  You mentioned the UN special observer.  He's not the oracle, he's not the repository of all truth.  He's one man who gave his opinion, didn't he?
JIM SWIRE
If you could find me someone who is the oracle, I'd be very grateful, I'd love to know the truth.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The Scottish Review Commission didn't say that Al-Megrahi was innocent.  In fact they went so far as to say they came across evidence that implied guilt, guilt as well as innocence.  ‘Some of what we have discovered,' they said ‘may imply innocence, some of what we have discovered may imply guilt'.  You're much more certain than they are.  They've seen a lot more documents than you have, a lot more interviews than you went through.
JIM SWIRE
No doubt.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... with great respect.
JIM SWIRE
I agree it's an issue of doubt, but because it's an issue of doubt, we needed to see that appeal complete.  I don't know why Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi withdrew his appeal..  he did so before he knew what Kenny MacAskill l, who I've also met incidentally, was going to do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He did so having changed his story on a number of occasions, which was something else the Scottish Review Commission pointed out.
JIM SWIRE
But his comments to me were always that he put clearing his name above even returning to his beloved family and unlike the...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But if he was so keen on doing that, you'd think he'd have got his story straight in his own mind.  Why was he giving them a different story before the trial and a different one afterwards?
JIM SWIRE
I think people in different degrees of stress often give different stories...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Even when they're innocent?
JIM SWIRE
...that's my experience as a doctor. And I see the motion deplores his release.  I am delighted by his release.  I have met him and felt him to be a man who was not angry and blustering and trying to prove his innocence to me in that way.  He was calm, he was collected, he would say every time that he wanted to clear his name before he went home, and I think it's a tragedy that he wasn't able to do that, and I would lay the blame for that delay very largely again, at the door of the Crown Office in Scotland who took many months during the start-up of this appeal to get the appeal story going with the result that it could not be heard before it became desperately urgent to let him go home.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Swire, you are, through the saddest of circumstances the only man in this hall who can answer this question from the standpoint of someone who lost a relative.  Was releasing Al-Megrahi, a man convicted of causing the death of 270 people - was that release a fitting tribute to your daughter and the others?
JIM SWIRE
That's a very good question, and ever since it happened, I have realised just how difficult my position is, because when I say to people who believe that he was guilty: 'Hang on a minute, look at this, look at that, what do you think?' I know that I'm cast in the mould of somebody who is undermining other people's grieving processes, and I don't like that one bit.  They've had enough to go through without my making it more difficult for them, but yes, Flora was ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you have made it more difficult for them?
JIM SWIRE
I have made it more difficult for them but I believe there is justification for that.  Flora was an honest girl, a very highly intelligent young doctor, and I think she would be proud of what we're trying to do, and I think that that is the gist of the, really, the whole purpose of the campaign that we've mounted ever since, despite the down-sides of making other relatives perhaps suffer marginally more than they might otherwise have done.  I regret that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Jim Swire, thank you very much indeed.  All right, just a reminder that the motion we're discussing is: 'This House deplores the release of the Lockerbie bomber to Libya'.  It's time now that we can take questions.  There's a gentleman right at the back who has a question... the lady, I'm sorry. the lady right at the back.  We'll get a microphone to you.  And if you can tell us where you're from? 

AUDIENCE (F) 
Good evening.  I'm Iraqi.  My question is directed to Mr. Al-Gamaty.  It seems like your anger is misdirected more towards the Libyan regime than it is towards Al-Megrahi, and I say that because it doesn't seem like your focus is more on his release because you've mentioned several times in the two minutes that you had that it's unfortunate that he could have cleared his name and so forth.  It seems like your anger is more directed towards the Libyan regime.  Is that true?
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Absolutely.  You know, just think about it.  Do you think that Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi just woke up one morning and said: 'Ah.  Today I feel like plotting to blow up a Pan Am airliner over the mid-Atlantic and kill 270 people.'  It doesn't happen like that.  Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi probably was a very small pawn in a very elaborate and extensive plan.  There are many, many other people much more senior, much higher than Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi who wanted to do this horrendous crime, and probably not just Libyans.  There were probably others as well, other parties.  There could be some Arab groups, there could be some Arab countries in this region - so Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi is a victim, he has been used.  The real perpetrators are states, are senior intelligence officers, are rulers of countries.  You cannot do something like this in a country like Libya without it being actioned and sanctioned from the highest  position...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to ...  Dr. Fetouri, please, do  you want to come in?
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Thank you Tim, I'm not interrupting anybody,  I just have to make a comment.  I mean, that question, that's a very nice question.  The discussion here is about the release of Mr Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi and his trial and the whole case of Lockerbie. Okay.  We have a man here who is saying that Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi should be released, but we just wait for him to die in jail, we release him after he dies, or maybe it is better, we don't release him after he dies, we just keep him a little bit longer after he dies until we find out that Libya was behind it or not.  I mean, there is absolutely no way of discussing this logic.  I mean, is the man guilty in the first place or not?  Okay, he's been guilty, has he been given due process of justice? No.  The answer is no.  What happened?  There is a second appeal now, should be going on now, and he has a very nice chance, I would say 80 per cent chance of winning it and getting out of the whole case...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri, he got a lot more justice than he'd have got in Libya, didn't he?
MUSTAFA FETOURI
But the problem is his health, or we just take the other point of view, we just hold the man who's dying, we hold him as a kind of a bargaining chip.. and actually Mr Daniel Kawczynski said this...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to ask you to, Guma El-Gamaty wants to come back.  Guma El-Gamaty, please, we can't make it so long with the answers.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
How can you tell when Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi is going to die?  That is just something beyond belief, to make this emotional argument, that the man is dying, therefore you should let him go.  He could live for another three years, I hope he does, and yet he had a golden chance to clear his name in the only way possible and that is to go back to the same court and put the evidence and then the court would clear him.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, you've made your point. I'm going to move on, I'm going to move on to a questioner in the third row.   You, sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm Qatari and I want to know, is it fair that the Libyan bomber gets released and not other prisoners?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Jim Swire, would you like to take that?
JIM SWIRE
That's a very good question.  There are a few other Libyan prisoners in Britain as well, and as things worked out, Mr. Megrahi had two possible ways of being returned to his own country.  One was to use a new device which was called a Prisoner Transfer Agreement , and that would have required him to withdraw his appeal.  The other way was compassionate release.  Now, the Americans who have made a huge fuss about his release are not quite to be taken at face value because they agreed to an arrangement whereby in the event of either of these two Libyans being found guilty, they would be imprisoned in Scotland under the control of Scottish law, and Scottish law for many years has included the possibility of compassionate release, and nearly everybody for whom compassionate release has been applied has obtained compassionate release - so Kenny MacAskill was acting to a precedent in Scottish law.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
Okay, he wants to come back.  You want to come back for a moment - say something, and then I'll come to you.
AUDIENCE (M)
Do you think the act that he did was a terrorist act?
JIM SWIRE
I don't believe that he was involved in the Lockerbie disaster on the basis of the evidence that I've heard, and one of the most heartening things over the past few years since the trial ended has been that every jurist that I can think of who has examined the evidence in detail, has come to the same conclusion...this very morning... 
TIM SEBASTIAN
Apart from the Scottish Review Commission of course, and that contains a number of jurists there.
JIM SWIRE
It did indeed. 
TIM SEBASTIAN
They didn't come to that conclusion.
JIM SWIRE
This very morning in the House of Lords a request was made by two QCs (Queen's Counsels) that the British government asked, the UK government, asked the Scottish government to initiate an inquiry into Lockerbie in view of the findings of the SCCRC and of the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's the Scottish Review Commission.
JIM SWIRE
... yes the Scottish Review Commission and of the special observer ....
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to ask Daniel Kawczynski to come in here.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
That's a very important question about the prisoners, the other prisoners, and the United Kingdom has spent a great deal of time working with Libya on the Prisoner Transfer Agreement.  And if Mr. Megrahi was to be released, I believe it should have been through this Prisoner Transfer Agreement, in exchange for progress being made to get the killer of P.C. Yvonne Fletcher, so it's not a question of holding hostages, it's a question of each country showing the other respect.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Jim Swire wants to come in here.
JIM SWIRE
I'm a layman, I'm not a politician like you, but are you aware as a politician that Jack Straw who's the English equivalent of Kenny MacAskill in Scotland ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's a Justice Secretary.
JIM SWIRE
... the Justice Secretary for England, that he prevented a joint House of Commons and House of Lords Committee, who were looking into the Prisoner Transfer Agreement in respect to its implications for human rights, because it's an agreement which could allow the government to return prisoners to a country where they might expect to meet a dreadful end, without their having to ask for the use of that agreement.  Why did he not allow them to do this?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Well, you'll have to ask Jack Straw that.
JIM SWIRE
I have. He won't answer.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Very important.  Our government, this decision was taken, by the way, today is the first day that parliament is sitting in the House of Commons.  It's been in recess for over two and a half months.  This decision was taken with no consultation by parliamentarians and this is partly why we are so frustrated, because the decision to transfer this prisoner had no sanction from our own parliament, and there was no scrutiny, it was all behind-the-scenes deals between the Foreign Office and the Libyans, and that in a democracy should not have happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to take a question from the gentleman in the second row. You, sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Yemen and I just wanted to ask Mr. Daniel, he was saying that we shouldn't  release the bomber because Libya has not co-operated with other governments.  So you're telling us that we shouldn't release him just because he's Libyan, and if he was from another nationality, and his country had co-operated, he should have been released?  I mean he shouldn't be released only because he's a Libyan, is that what you're trying to say?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
No, not at all, but there are very, as I tried to intimate at the beginning, very, very important outstanding issues.  Libya, don't forget, we've just had the 25^th anniversary of a major bombing of a hotel in Brighton where half of the government was nearly killed by the IRA.  Libya supplied the IRA with semtex for many, many years, and was a leading supplier of ammunition and cash to a terrorist organisation that were killing many British people.  These things have to be resolved before we can have confidence in Libya and the Libyan regime, and nobody, sir, feels more passionately about improving relations with Libya than I do.  I set up the all-party group for the promotion of friendship with Libya, and I spend a great deal of time trying to promote a better understanding, but if the Libyans aren't prepared to even allow us to come and interact with them over these issues, it's very, very difficult.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we'll take a question from the lady in the front row there.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening.  I'm Iraqi.  My question is to the opposition side of the debate.  Well, knowing the right of going or getting back home is very essential and important to everybody, and knowing that there is a percentage of, as in the person who's being kept is not 100 per cent innocent and is not 100 per cent guilty, what kind of a moral message here we're sending to people if we're sending him back home, since we know that this right is very important?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
What's the question, I'm sorry, I did not get the question, I'm sorry.
AUDIENCE (F)
Okay.  The moral message that you're sending to people, to other people, if you are sending this person back to his place, to his home, since he's not 100 per cent innocent, what kind of a message you're sending to people?  Thank you.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
If I get you correctly, you are asking if you are sending this guy back home and convinced that he's innocent, is that what you're saying?
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, the questioner was saying that Mr. Megrahi was not 100 per cent innocent.  Actually he was convicted of the murder of 270 people.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Yes, all right, all right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Slightly less than not guilty.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
I'm very sorry, I'll answer the question, please.  I'm very sorry but the idea is this.  I mean, the whole situation, the whole Lockerbie case, what it came to, or what it has reached so far, is that Al-Megrahi and his colleague were transferred to Camp Zeist.  They had a trial which we assumed in the beginning will be the due process of justice and that has not been the case.  One was acquitted and the other one was convicted.   Increasingly ever since 2001 when he was convicted we have increasingly seen additional evidence, if you like, that says he should not have been convicted in the first place, and then we had the review of the Scottish review body that looks after courts and what they do, and this again is saying, there could be a miscarriage of justice - which is equivalent to saying that the trial was not the right, was not on the right track.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's not the equivalent of saying that the trial was not on the right track, it's the equivalent of saying that some evidence came later that wasn't available to people at the time of the trial.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
It's more or less the same thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, and it did also say that there were some indications of guilt and some indications of innocence.  If you're going to quote, please don't quote so selectively, you're giving people the wrong impression.  Please, Daniel Kawczynski, you want to come in here.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
That young lady has raised a very, very important issue here.  What message does it send out if you are releasing convicted terrorists?  Now, in our country we see the coffins of British soldiers coming back every week who are being killed in Afghanistan, making that ultimate sacrifice to fight against terrorism, and yet on the other hand we are releasing convicted terrorists.  It's a terrible message.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  Jim Swire, you wanted to say something.
JIM SWIRE
In essence, you are criticising the system that exists in part of your country, i.e. Scotland.  There is an established policy of allowing compassionate release if you think that the person is within about three months of his death.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
But I spoke to an eminent QC who's also a Member of Parliament, Sir Menzies Campbell, about this issue, and he is equivocally... he's a QC and he said there are four separate things you have to look at when releasing a prisoner.  The severity of the crime, the consequences and the sentence imposed, and in all three, the court said that this crime was the worst atrocity, terrorist atrocity in Britain, the sentence was extremely high and they only looked at his health, and that is the fourth option, very important, but what about the other three?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. I'm going to take a brief comment from Dr. Fetouri and then from Mr. Gamaty.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Just on the comparison between Afghanistan and the case of Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi ...  Look, in Afghanistan, you invaded the country...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're not discussing Afghanistan.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
That's what we are expecting.  What do you expect, whatever the reasoning was, but in this case, this is a dying man whose case is totally suspicious, the verdict against him is totally suspicious, it is circumstantial evidence.  And he's dying.  You couldn't wait for his appeal, which he was sure, he was quite certain that he will win.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Guma El-Gamaty
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
I'd just like to say that the gentlemen there is shutting down on the judiciary system in Scotland and saying that courts in Scotland maybe are not totally independent, I'd like to tell you that Scotland is not Libya.  In Scotland the judiciary and the court are completely independent and cannot be influenced by governments or politicians, and yet this is exactly the principle which we ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, let him speak, let him speak.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Again, this is not Libya, this is a Doha free forum.  Can I just also say, this is exactly the important principle: the principle of maintaining independent of the judiciary and the independence of the court and not getting the government involved in dirty deals and giving into blackmail from the Gaddafi regime is what we need to see.  It's a far more important principle than compassionate release, that Megrahi, had the chance to go through the judicial court and clear his name independently and he chose to drop it, maybe under pressure from the Gaddafi regime.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Mr Guma El-Gamaty, thank you.  The questioner, you want to come back on this.  Are you impressed by anything that you've heard?
AUDIENCE (F)
Well, I'm impressed by this side.  Taking the idea of compassion, that the guy is dying, that the man is dying, is not really, I don't know, it's not convincing because he is, there is a possibility that he killed like more people, more souls than himself.  What kind of a message, the moral message that this side of the debate is sending is okay because he's dying....
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you got your chance.  Dr. Al-Fetouri.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Okay.  Well, I have to go back to the previous speaker's remarks.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just answer the question.  We've got a lot of questions, we need to move on, please.  No history lessons.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Okay.  The case has reached the point whereby Mr. Megrahi, I don't know how much of the proceedings you have followed so far concerning the Lockerbie case.  The case had reached the stage where Mr. Megrahi was convicted and then he had his second appeal which is being looked at by the supervisory body in Scotland.  Just a moment.  The whole thing was built on circumstantial evidence. What we are talking about now is not: he should be released just because he's ill.  No, we are talking also about the fact that the Scottish justice system, and this is something I emphasised  in my opening statement, is one of the best in the world, is one of the most respected, okay?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I'm going to ask you to finish now, we have a lot of questions.  Just make one sentence.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Okay, right.  And Mr. Kenny MacAskill, who is the Justice Minister in Scotland, I mean, was really worried that the whole thing will come to zero afterwards and he will be acquitted anyway...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to take another question.  We're going to take a question from the lady in the front row there.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm Qatari.  This is a question to the panel against the motion.  In response to the oil deals, do you think that if the oil deals were actually confirmed, that the bomber has to be confirmed to [be to blame] because Libya does not care for justice but really they're claiming responsibility for the bomber?
JIM SWIRE
I can answer that in part.  I think the way the world works is very largely by questions of commerce and economy.  It was President Clinton who said: 'It's the economy, stupid,' and I think that just about summed up what politicians do.  I suspect that the agreement made between the man who was then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, and Colonel Gaddafi in Tripoli, was made partly for commercial reasons.  Now, it may surprise you, because I suppose that I am satisfied that this man did not murder my daughter, that I am looking for ways in which this can be used to improve relations between countries, and like Daniel, I would, no-one would be more delighted than me to see improvements in those relations.  I am delighted to see Libya back into the community of nations.  There are five million people there, five million in Scotland.  If the Libyan money could be used to employ some of the highly trained people in Scotland who haven't got any jobs, there could be a fantastic economic benefit to both countries.  That would be a good thing, and I think that the agreement not to let this man die in prison, a horrible death in a lonely cell away from his family, if that had been allowed to happen, he would have become a martyr.  If he had become a martyr, the case against him would have collapsed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Dr. Swire.  I'm going to ask Daniel Kawczynski to come in here.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
It's very important and it has been mentioned already, and the biggest problem, as a politician, you obviously have to listen to what the other country says, and Libya stated: 'Yes, we were responsible for this.'  Now, it's been said many times and the gentleman said it again: 'Well, we admitted to it because we wanted to get rid of sanctions.'  What a suggestion!  If you feel passionately that you have been wronged, no matter what they throw at you, no matter what the sanctions are, you stand by your conviction and you say: 'No, we were innocent, we are innocent, we demand that the United Nations support us, and we get to the truth,' but the biggest problem is that the Libyans, for the sake of getting rid of the sanctions, said: 'Yes, we are responsible,' and I have to take that at face value.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, Dr. Fetouri, briefly please.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
I'll just pick up where Daniel finished.  I mean, we never said we are responsible. What we have said, no please, go back to the report and check it again, what Libya has said -  I don't represent Libya - what we have said is this: 'We are responsible for the actions of our citizens, we are not responsible as a state for what has happened.'  They are two completely different things.  One.  The other thing, the United Nations Mr. Kawczynski wants us to go back to, is controlled by his country and by America and we see who is making decisions at the United Nations, at the Security Council...
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
I think Colonel Gaddafi spoke the longest at the Security Council.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Please let me finish.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please finish then.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
The International Court of Justice in The Hague, in 2001 probably, 2002, made the decision that this case does not belong to the Security Council.  They said the Security Council have nothing to do with it, yet America forces it...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  I'm going to take another question.  Please, Dr. Fetouri, you cannot speak for so long, we have a lot of people.  I asked you to be brief, please be brief.  That gentleman up there.  Can we have a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Pakistan, and I would just like to say that, Mr. Daniel, you're saying that this guy who's convicted for the Lockerbie bombing, he had a case in a Scottish court, judges made a decision, then he went to jail.  What about the hundreds of people who go to Guantanamo Bay without a case and not even substantial evidence is there to put them in there, and they're never released, never talked about, never in the news.  What do you want to say about that?  Why don't their countries make a case about that?
[Applause]
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Right.  That is an extremely important point that you make, and for too long previous generations of Western politicians have in my view been extremely hypocritical and two-faced when it comes to relations with the Arab world.  We have to enter a new period where everybody is treated equally and fairly, because we are all equal in this world.  But I have to say that regrettably up until now, the relationship between Great Britain and Libya has been extremely poor, and partly it's our fault, it's our fault in the West.  The book which I'm publishing is a very even account of the relationship and it criticises the West for, for example, bombing Tripoli in 1986.  I think it was an outrage that Tripoli was bombed in 1986 without the authority of the United Nations.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, can we just stay with the present here please?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
We talk a great deal about Lockerbie, but never forget, a Libyan civilian aircraft was blown out of the sky in 1974 over Sinai and the Israelis gave the Israeli pilot one of the highest honours.  A lot of Libyan citizens died there, that was wrong.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we stay with the release of the Lockerbie bomber to Libya, that's what we're discussing?  The questioner wants to come back a moment and then I'll come to you Mr. Gamaty.  You wanted to come back and say something else?
AUDIENCE (M)
I think you didn't hear my question right.  I said what about the other countries, not about Libya, I'm not talking about the Lockerbie.  Put that aside.  What about the people who are there without a case from Pakistan and Afghanistan, they came there without a case to Guantanamo and never released.  I'm talking about Pakistan and Afghanistan.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I think that Mr. Kawczynski dealt with that when he spoke about Western hypocrisy.  Mr. Gamaty, you want to come in.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY  
I'd just like to say to the questioner that I totally agree with you that the Guantanamo Bay is a disgrace, but that is for the American politicians and administration.  We are talking about Scotland and Scottish courts and even Colonel Gaddafi himself went on record to praise the Scottish judiciary system and say that the Scottish courts are totally independent and that they are operating independently of politicians, but unfortunately at the heart of this episode and the release, there has been blackmailing of the Gaddafi regime to the British government and there have been business deals that completely sidelined the due process of justice and law, and made the release purely on political deals.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  Jim Swire, do you want to come in on this?
JIM SWIRE
Not really.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  We'll take a question from the gentleman in the front row.  You sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you for the opportunity.  I'm also from Libya, and I would like to address some of the points raised by this side of the debate.  Underpinning here on the side is the fact Dr. Fetouri made the statement that Libya actually went out of its way to pay 2.5 - 2.7 rather - billion dollars and offer a sacrificed lamb, Mr. Megrahi, to be locked in jail for nine years until he was released, just so that they can get it out of the way, and make a public statement of admission of guilt just to get it out of the way.  This is a preposterous statement to say about a people and a country.  This is one item.  The second item is, we hear from this side, we hear also from the regime in Libya, that this is a compassionate case, that this man is dying, that justice should take place.  I want the world to know that at least Mr. Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi had one thing that thousands of Libyans today never dreamed of, a day in court.  There are thousands of prisoners in Libya who have been there for 20 or more years, who've never had a day in court.  They were never convicted, they were never tried, and they die in jail.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we come to a question, please?  Can we come to a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
In this year - I'm going to conclude - in this year we had an example ... ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
With a question I hope.
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes.  And my question is, has the Gaddafi regime ever in its 40 years sitting on the throne of Libya, released one prisoner under the same compassionate rules that they are asking the Scottish to do?
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Yes, sure, I will be pleased to answer, that's not our subject first of all, but nevertheless I will answer.  Of course, of course there have been so many releases of prisoners in Libya on compassionate grounds, and even more on religious occasions that have happen every now and then.  I will go back to the issue of the compensation, why Libya agreed to pay the 2.7 billion, and again reiterate my statement:  Libya is a small country.  The United Nations is controlled by the superpowers and the embargo against the country has been going on for the better part of a decade and the economy was destroyed.  People were dying in droves trying to get medical treatment outside the country because they could not fly, they had to drive to Tunisia or Egypt, or to take a boat to Malta, I did this myself many times.  There was no other way, I mean, we proposed, Libya actually, proposed the trial to take place in a third country which was Camp Zeist in Holland...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to ask the questioner, I'm going to ask the questioner to come back here.
AUDIENCE (M)
I just want to come back to the original question.  My question was not about sanctions and this and that.  My question was very simple.  Has the Gaddafi regime, in its 40 totalitarian years in Libya, released one political prisoner under the same reasons and grounds that it is asking the Scottish authorities to do.  I do not mean people released in boxes because we've had 1200, one thousand two hundred prisoners, killed in one day.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you've made your point.  Jim Swire wants to answer that, and then I'll come to you.
JIM SWIRE
I've said already, I'm not a politician and I don't claim to know anything about Libyan politics other than my talks with Colonel Gaddafi himself, but can we get back to the subject: was it a deplorable thing to release this man?  Look at it for a moment from the point of view of terrorism.  Most terrorism, Lockerbie certainly, happened as acts of revenge.  If this man had been kept in a Scottish prison cell until he died, he would have become to be seen as a martyr.  If the decision that he was guilty in this case ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
The questioner doesn't really agree with you on that.
JIM SWIRE
I know he doesn't, but if the verdict against this man is overturned, what will then be the future effect on potential terrorists if they see that this was a man who wasn't even guilty of this terror attack and died....?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to take a come-back on Guma El-Gamaty, he has been patient here on the right.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Thank you, Tim.  Can I just remind everybody that the Libyan regime has asked for Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi to be released on compassionate grounds to die a natural death amongst his family back in Tripoli.  Let me remind you that on 29^th June 1996, twelve hundred Libyan political prisoners were massacred in one day in Abu Salim prison, they were never given that chance to die a natural death in the arms of their wives and mothers.  If this justice or is this hypocrisy from the Libyan regime?
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, you've made your point.   Dr. Fetouri, do you want to come back on that point?
MUSTAFA FETOURI
To that point, yes.  Just to correct something.  The Libyan government has never asked for the release of Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi.  Legally it cannot.  He did it himself, he is the imprisoned person and he has to do it himself.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Jim Swire, is that true?  That they didn't ask for his release...?
MUSTAFA FETOURI
If the other side would please just like to correct the facts...
GUMA EL-GAMATY
You are contradicting...
[inaudible exchange between speakers]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could I have a moment of silence, please, because nobody will be able to hear anything.  Dr. Fetouri, you said okay, thank you.  Mr. El-Gamaty, you have something to say, please say it.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
You are contradicting your leader's son, who said very clearly and openly that in every meeting we had with the British over the last many years, we always put the release of Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi on the table and we said we need it as a bargaining chip.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Well, everybody does, no!
[inaudible exchange between speakers]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, thank you, we're not going to get anywhere if you shout, please.  Thank you.  I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Can I very quickly come in on that point?  The gentleman's point is absolutely pivotal, and don't forget, there are many people in Britain today, British citizens of Libyan origin.  I had one come to see me in the House of Commons very recently, who desperately wants to go and see his 94-year-old grandmother in Tripoli.  She's ill, but the Libyans will not allow him to go back because his father's a dissident.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, thank you.  Question from the gentleman there.
AUDIENCE (M)
Salaam aleikum. I'm from Qatar.  My question is for Guma El-Gamaty.  You think that Megrahi was set up by people that helped hatred towards the UK.  You may be right but why is it that when everyone talked about Megrahi being sent out, no-one had a sight in these people, and if you are right, can we have evidence about what you're talking about.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understood your question.
AUDIENCE (M)
He said that he was set up by people, he was a pawn, your words, he said he was a pawn.  He said that he was a pawn so does he have evidence of these people that set him up, is that true or not?
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
First of all the crime was intended for a Pan Am airliner, which is an American airliner, with 259 passengers and the intention was for it to blow up in the mid-Atlantic so that all the evidence would disappear in the depths of the Atlantic.  Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi was a very junior intelligence officer working for the intelligence service in Libya.  How could a man that junior plan and mastermind and organise this horrendous international crime?  Surely his seniors, his managers, other people in the regime and possibly outside players, have been involved and those players, whether they're Libyans or they're non-Libyans, now because the court... Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi dropped his appeal and the court will never have the evidence, we will never know who they are.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you've made your point. I'm going to bring Dr. Fetouri in.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Earlier we heard from the same speaker that he somehow thinks that Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi should have stayed in prison because he is sure that he will clear his name.  Okay.  Now he's saying, well, not really.  I mean, the guy is guilty, so what kind of argument is he presenting?  I cannot see really follow it.
[inaudible exchange between speakers].
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to ask Mr. Kawczynski to come in.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
No, no, no, if you're going to quote my colleague, you have to quote him correctly.  What he said is that it would have been better for Mr. Al-Megrahi to have pursued his innocence through an appeal process, and that appeal process would have been expedited.  And by the way, let's not forget the people here, and I'm a great admirer of Dr. Swire, and the extraordinary values that he has to forgive, but the families now, as a result of this lack of his appeal, may never know what happened, and that is the tragedy about it.  Why not go for that appeal so that these poor people would finally see what happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Jim Swire.
JIM SWIRE
I think that we have to be terribly careful about trying to answer the question: why did Megrahi withdraw his appeal?  He made his decision to withdraw it before he knew what Kenny MacAskill was going to do.  Meantime, many of us, myself included, had long discussions with Kenny MacAskill on what should happen, but by withdrawing his appeal, you think of it, sitting around in his cell, knowing that the angel of death was hovering just over his head by now, and although up till then he'd always intended to clear his name before going home, in that situation, do you not think that it is likely that he felt that by providing himself with two routes for being returned to Libya, in other words, by withdrawing his appeal which was necessary if he were to use the Prisoner Transfer Agreement, which by the way the Libyan government had indeed applied for before then, and MacAskill had 90 days to decide the issue of that one, but by foregoing his appeal, suddenly he had two routes of possibly getting home to his family, instead of just one.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  Gentleman in the front row.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening.  I'm Egyptian.  Abdelbaset was convicted of killing 270 people.  A few years later, he's released.  What message are we sending to potential terrorists?  What message are we sending, so I'm going to put a different scenario.  Let's say Osama Bin Laden has, I don't know, cancer, and he was actually convicted of something like that, would he be released because of the compassion?  What compassion are we talking about?  The family, the people who are suffering every single day of the loss of a member of their family, what compassion are we talking about?  The compassion that a person, a person ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let's let Dr. Swire answer the question.  You've put it a number of times.
JIM SWIRE
There are a number of questions, but as I said at the beginning, I think, my position in this is as an individual.  I'm not a politician, I'm not a lawyer, I'm nothing clever at all, I'm the father of one of the victims, and I have become satisfied as a result of what I have heard, and the result of what many other people have said to me since, that this man was not guilty as charged.  I know Tim will say that he was found guilty by the court, all this kind of stuff, but that's where I am.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But that's no small matter, is it? It's not a parking offence, is it?
JIM SWIRE
Where I would be if I believed he was guilty, I can't tell you because I don't believe that.  As it is, if we had kept him in to die, we would have given a situation to potential terrorists in the future, that we were unforgiving and that by forcing him to die in prison, that had been the right thing to do, whereas as it is, we give them the message: we can exercise mercy and this man we do not wish to stay in prison because we're not even sure that he's guilty.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take another question, I'm going to ask if there are any more Libyans out there, anybody else.  You sir, are you from Libya?  Yes?
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is directed to Mr. Guma.  With all due respect, sir, you have mentioned some evidence about dirty business deals, something between governments and Scottish government.  But my question here: in a business deal as far as I know, both sides have to be happy and satisfied.  How can the Libyan government be satisfied by this deal?  I mean you said something about a gas deal or something...
GUMA  EL-GAMATY  
What has been happening is that the Libyan regime has used the opportunity for British companies to go into Libya and secure lucrative deals and contracts, especially in oil and gas, the Libyan regime has used that as a leverage, as a bargaining chip, as a blackmailing tool ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Used what, used the release?
GUMA  EL-GAMATY  
No, used the opportunity for British companies to secure and use contracts, lucrative contracts, in the oil and gas fields in Libya, the Libyan regime has used that as a leverage and a bargaining chip to say to the British government: 'We will not allow these business deals to go ahead unless Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi is returned.'  This is an absolute established fact in all the discussions between Tony Blair, Colonel Gaddafi, Saif Al Islam and all the other Libyan and British commissions, and that's why, just one final point...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, one final point.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY  
That's why Jack Straw, the Justice Minister in Britain, wrote a letter to MacAskill and said to him very clearly, and I've got the quote, that there are wider implications to do with the trade relationships between Libya and Britain unless Abdelbaset Al-Megrahi is returned to Libya.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, Dr. Fetouri.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
It can't be clearer than that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
I don't know where this speaker is getting his facts from.  I mean, there's nothing to prove this...  
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
From Britain, because Britain is transparent and the information is available...
MUSTAFA FETOURI
Can I have my turn?  I don't know where he is getting his facts from.  There's no proof of this.  The British government has denied it, Libya has denied it and there's no connection.  We can't just assume things.  This is the first thing.  The second thing is this.  Libya or Britain, the Labour government in Britain now, they do not have any way of making sure that this will not come out later on, after two months, three months, two years, three years, after even 30 years. I mean, even then they will have calculated what will be the consequences if such information comes out, and that's why it's absolutely, and I'm absolutely certain, it's the justice system in Scotland that made way for Megrahi's release.  It's not a quid pro quo, it has never been and they can understand if such talk or a claim is coming from ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri, okay, you've made your point.  Thank you.  Okay, Dr. Fetouri, you've made your point.  On the point of fact actually Jack Straw was asked, and this was an interview in the Daily Telegraph, he was asked if trade and BP, the oil company, were factors in his decision to cave in to Libyan demand and include Megrahi in a Prisoner Transfer Agreement, and he replied: 'Yes, it was a big part of that, I am unapologetic about it.'  That's a direct quote from Jack Straw.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY  
Absolutely.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
Tim, can I just say on that point on politicians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very briefly.
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
I'm speaking from the point of view of the politician, and can I just say I'm speaking as the only elected politician on the panel.  When you allow politicians, no matter which society you live in, if you allow the politicians to start to influence the courts and interfere in the courts, that is the start of destruction...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And your party would never do anything like that?
DANIEL KAWCZYNSKI
...and damage to democracy.  Well, we certainly wouldn't be like Gordon Brown, I can tell you that for nothing. But that is a terrible thing, and this decision by Mr. MacAskill who is a politician, heavily influenced by Jack Straw and others - that is the critical thing, because the court itself, and with all respect to Dr. Swire, we must respect the court and this court convicted the man.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Fetouri, one point.
MUSTAFA FETOURI
One more point.  Kenny MacAskill acted because he wanted to preserve the integrity of the justice system in Scotland.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the lady in the second row, there.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening.  My question is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are you from please?
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm from Iraq.  My question is directed to Dr. Swire.  If it was strongly proven to you that Mr. Megrahi was guilty, don't you think that he should return to Libya in a box in the same way you received your daughter Flora?
JIM SWIRE
I perhaps should hesitate to say this in this company, but I am a Christian and Jesus Christ is recognised by Islam as a prophet at the very least, and one of the things he taught was that we should try to extend love, even to those who are regarded as our enemies, and speaking at the personal level, I hope that even if I believed that Megrahi was guilty, which I do not now believe, I hope I would have the generosity to follow that advice and to allow him to go home to die with his dear wife and family. 
[Applause]
Because, if I could just finish that. Thank you for your applause.  If I can just finish that.  We're all heading on this desperate, delicate planet for disaster if we don't do something soon, and we have to learn how to treat each other as if we were all brothers, and that is the message that I am so glad to be able to try and put across tonight.  Let us get there.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very quickly, Mr. El-Gamaty, very quickly.
GUMA  EL-GAMATY
Just like to say that as compassion is important, there is a principle which is far more important which is the independence of the judiciary and the rule of law, otherwise this world would descend into chaos, and that is the precedent which the British government sent the wrong signal, that we could tamper and mess around with the independence of the judiciary and the rule of law.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Right, okay, thank you very much.  Ladies and gentlemen, we've reached the point in the proceedings, we are now going to vote on the motion, that 'This House deplores the release of the Lockerbie bomber to Libya.'  Would you take your voting machines please and let me just tell you, explain to you how they work.  If you want to vote for the motion, that is the side represented by the gentlemen on my right, you press button 1, the yes button.  If you want to vote against the motion, the side represented by the gentlemen on my left, you press button 2, the no vote, and would you please press whichever button you want to do now.  You only have to press once and through the miracles of modern science, your vote will be communicated to our computers and we should have it there on the screen for you in a few seconds.  All right, there is the vote.  And it's a narrow vote and it's 53 per cent for the motion, 47 per cent against.  The motion has been carried.  Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much indeed.  Thanks to our speakers for coming all this way, and to you all, thank you very much for your questions.  The Doha Debates will be back again next month.  We look forward to seeing you then.  Till then and all of us on the team, have a safe journey home.  Good night, thank you very much, good night.