This House believes Arab governments couldn't care less about Darfur

TIM SEBASTIAN
Good evening ladies and gentlemen, and a very warm welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates sponsored here in the Gulf by the Qatar Foundation. Darfur is known around the world not just as a region of Sudan but for the massacres, the rape, the forced movement of millions of people, and for the shattering development of one of the world's worst humanitarian disasters over the last five years. Who cares? The short answer is that not enough people care, but who cares in the Arab World? Sudan is after all a member of the Arab League. Is Khartoum simply battling a full-scale insurgency, or is it, as some have alleged, a case of state-sponsored genocide to be first denied and then later blamed on the West? Our motion tonight: 'This House believes that Arab governments couldn't care less about Darfur,' and our panel brings together the major players and observers in this on-going tragedy. Speaking for the motion, Ahmed Diraige, a former governor of Darfur, and now head of the opposition National Redemption Front Alliance. In the 60s, he was a Member of Parliament and minister in Sudan, who left the country for good in 1983. With him, Nadim Hasbani, a specialist on Sudan for the International Crisis Group, where he shared responsibility for monitoring the conflict in Darfur. He's written widely on the subject, as well as on defence and security policies in the Gulf. Against the motion, from Sudan's government, Sirajuddin Hamid Yousuf, director of the Crisis Management Department at the Ministry of External Affairs. He holds the rank of ambassador and is by profession a human rights lawyer. And with him from the Arab League, Zeid Al Sabban, head of the African Affairs Division in the office of the Secretary General. He has worked extensively in Sudan and represented the Arab League at peace talks that have yet to bear fruit. Ladies and gentlemen: our panel. [Audience applause]. And now let me please ask Ahmed Diraige to speak first for the motion.

AHMED DIRAIGE
Thank you very much Mr Sebastian.  I have two minutes to put the motion, but before that, I would like to express my gratitude for this forum, and I must also express my surprise and delight to see how Qatar has developed.  When I came here [the] first time, it was in 1970, and we were trying to make the constitution for the Gulf States, and we used to come to Qatar here with the Emir and have a meeting of all the emirates, the nine emirates here, and when you see it today, there's a lot of development which has taken place, not only in construction but also culturally and that's a great achievement.  Having said so, I want to move that our Arab brothers, their participation or their role in the problems of Darfur, has been, to say the least, minimal, if not absent.  Maybe because of a lack of information, correct information; maybe because we in the Third World, in the Arab World, have not yet digested the idea of unity in diversity.  Maybe that in the Arab World traditionally we used to think of people who are black as the slaves; maybe that also in our tradition we used not to understand the concept of Arabism.  Is it ethnic or is it cultural?  It's also very important to understand this.  Having said so, I hope that we will provoke you to ask questions and then we will be able to answer the questions.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ahmed Diraige, thank you very much indeed.  If Arab governments don't care about Darfur, why the spate of Arab initiatives that we've seen in recent years?  In fact, in 2005, the UN was complaining there were [so many] initiatives from different countries that rebel movements couldn't even handle them.  That's not a sign of not caring, is it?
AHMED DIRAIGE
I remember that the first initiative was taken by Eritrea when they invited all the Sudanese combatants and the Sudanese opposition to meet in Asmara and prepare a declaration of principles to solve the whole problems of the Sudan.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Are you saying this wasn't a relevant initiative then?
AHMED DIRAIGE
It was hijacked later.  Also the Egyptians came with an initiative called the Libyan-Egyptian Initiative...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Yes, and then the Saudis came as well.
AHMED DIRAIGE
... and it didn't work.  I don't remember any Saudi initiative.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Well, the UN talks about it in 2005.  It said, 'Rebel leaders complain about the fact that there are so many forums at the moment, everyone wants to take an initiative at the moment, the Libyan initiative, the Egyptian initiative, the Saudi initiative - it's hardly possible for a movement to service all these initiatives.'  This is from the UN Special Representative to the Secretary General.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes, not to my knowledge, we have never been as an.. [inaudible] in Saudi Arabia.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
What about the Arab conference in Khartoum, October last year?  $250 million pledged.  That's a sign of Arab caring, isn't it? Arab governments caring?
AHMED DIRAIGE
You see, the problem is not only $50, the problem is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
250 million.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes, 250.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Not just 50.
AHMED DIRAIGE
..the participation in helping the Sudanese to solve their problem; the problem will be solved by the Sudanese themselves because it is a Sudanese problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But my point is, this is a sign of caring, isn't it?  These initiatives, these donor conferences, the pledging of $250 million last October - this is a sign of caring.
AHMED DIRAIGE
I think in the Arab World, particularly our richer brothers, when there is a problem, they want to keep away and they just give the money and keep away.  The Arab-Israeli problem is the same, for the Palestinians.  They give the money but they will not take positive steps to solve the problem.

TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Ahmed Diraige, thank you very much indeed.  Now please let me ask Sirajuddin Hamid Yousuf to speak against the motion.

SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Thank you Tim. First of all, Sudan is very much grateful for the contribution of Arab governments regarding the issue of Darfur.  The contribution so far given by Arab people and Arab governments, is significant.  That is due to many reasons:  threats to the unity, territorial integrity, and stability of Sudan actively touch upon the nerves of the Arabs' collective security system  and their future.  The issue of Darfur remains an active subject within the League of Arab Nations.  There is somebody here who is going to deal with that in detail but the Arab League of Nations was present during all phases of negotiations in the conclusion of the Abuja agreement of 2005.  Many Arab governments exerted tremendous efforts in support of Sudanese measures to resolve the issue of Darfur.  They straightened the record on the allegations of genocide - it's only the United States that believe it's genocide, nobody else does - the human rights abuses, war crimes and the vicious media disinformation campaigns.  They provided unfettered political and moral support to Sudan in the different multi-lateral forums.  They helped alleviate the suffering of Sudanese displaced persons and refugees by providing sizeable humanitarian assistance directly or through the different Arab civil society organisations.  The conference which has taken place in Khartoum last October, they donated 250 million US dollars out of the targeted 345 million dollars only for humanitarian participation. In particular and on a bilateral level, many Arab countries, they did their best.  Qatar for example through its membership in the Security Council - it played an important role in maintaining a balanced consideration by the Security Council of the problem. Saudi Arabia arranged for the first meeting with President Bashir and Ban Ki-moon, and also mediated between Chad and Sudan regarding the problems over the common borders.  Egypt is and has always been a partner of Sudan in their endeavours to resolve the conflict in Darfur, Cairo has been a venue for meetings including the rebels of Darfur.  Libya as well is equally involved at both governmental and popular levels, and Libya met many initiatives and tried very hard to mediate between the government of Sudan and the Libyans.  Arab governments as a core of the OIC member states are yet to provide, in the first coming OIC conference, for the rehabilitation and restructuring of Darfur scheduled for May 2008.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ambassador, thank you very much indeed.  I want to pick you up on something you said.  You said only the US is accusing Sudan of genocide.  Maybe that is strictly true, but in March last year we had a report commissioned by the Human Rights Council at the United Nations which found the Sudanese government had orchestrated and taken part in large-scale international crimes in Darfur.  The Sudanese government, it said, was responsible for waging a ruthless campaign resulting in war crimes and human rights abuses.  How do you answer that?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, we all know that human rights reports - they can pin point...they can point fingers at the problem but they cannot form a credible basis upon which you ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But this was a very credible committee, this was led by a Nobel Peace Laureate, Jodi Williams. It talked about the principal pattern as one of a violent counter-insurgency campaign waged by the government of Sudan, in concert with the Janjaweed militia and targeting mostly civilians.  This is not just finger-pointing, this is a specific investigation that took place in Sudan.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No, no, absolutely.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Why not?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It's finger-pointing because everything contained in that report was not verified.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Including the fact they said, "Rebel forces are also guilty of serious abuse," you would question that bit as well? Or you only question the bit that you don't like?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
I put it [such] because there is a certain process in which you can verify accusations.  There must be investigation.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
This was an investigation.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
There must be a credible systematic mechanism seeking to apply justice and so forth.  You cannot just depend totally on reports published.  Human Rights Watch publishes reports, Amnesty International publishes reports, and so forth.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
And they're all lies, are they?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, not lies.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But you're saying this is just finger-pointing.  I'm saying this is the result of investigations that took place on the ground, that specifically accuse the Sudanese government of involvement in major international crimes.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
We cannot get credibility [from a] report in which we do not participate.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Well, you wouldn't participate, would you?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Why?   They should invite us to participate - we would.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You didn't even want a UN peace-keeping force in the country, did you?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
That's not true, of course.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
October 2006, at the United Nations, your government warned that it would consider any pledge to supply police or troops to a UN force a hostile act and a prelude to invasion of Sudan.  Is that welcoming? Is that welcoming a UN force?  I don't think so.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, now the issue of a UN force has been settled once and for all.  The [inaudible] started already in January.  The few issues pertaining to the deployment are going to be settled once and for all, also by the end of this month, in Addis Ababa.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So finally having obstructed the process for so many years, you're going to let it in, are you?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Pardon?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Having obstructed the process of getting peace-keepers in ...
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It's not obstruction.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
No?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
You know that the United Nations had been used by the United States, by Britain, by other countries, as a mere conduit pipe to pass ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ambassador, everybody uses the UN, yourself included.  There's a long history of it.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No, no, we have to protect our sovereignty, we have to protect our dignity in dealing [with the situation].  We should not acquiesce and submit ourselves to any body or any statement coming from the West.

TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ambassador, thank you very much indeed.  Now please let me call on Nadim Hasbani to speak for the motion.

NADIM HASBANI
First, the UN doesn't come from the West.  It represents all the countries of the planet.  Second, regarding human rights.  There was an Arab League - it's not Human Rights Watch, it's the Arab League - inquiry commission in 2004. I'm quoting, it said: "there was massive violation of human rights in Darfur in 2004".  The report was put on the website of the Arab League and the second day it was taken off the website of the Arab League because of your government's pressure on the Arab League.  It's not Human Rights Watch, it's not Amnesty, it's the Arab League. So what's really happening, the real story behind Darfur - forget about politics, what's really happening, if you have thousands of people who were killed? You have millions of people, you have more than 2 million refugees. Darfur['s] population is six million, so one-third of the population has been in refugee camps living in tents, with no sanitation, with only basic food supplies, etc for the past 4 to 5 years. So what I don't understand is - how come we're not sensitive to such a humanitarian issue?  What did the Arab governments do?  I would like to ask, what did the Arab governments do?  You said the Arab League was present at the Abuja negotiations and elsewhere.  I tell you, I met with Zeid [the] first time in 2005 in Casablanca, where he defended the Arab League and said, 'We were trying to negotiate peace, we were trying to do things in...'  OK, today we are in 2008, three years later.  What did the Arab League do?  Nothing. Who does the Arab League represent?  The Arab governments.  Tim, you said $250 million [of] pledges by Arab countries.  Very nice.  I can pledge.  I'll pay you each today $1 million, OK.  You will come and I'll be held accountable when I pay it.  How much did the Arab countries pay in humanitarian aid to Sudan, to Darfur, to the civilian people, to the normal people?  Not much.  What happened is.. you said there was..I'll try to quote you again. You said there was a vicious media campaign against the Sudanese government. So are we now, since this programme is a BBC World programme, it's a Western channel, are we now participating [in] a vicious media campaign against Sudan?  I don't think so, because the media campaign came from the blackout the Sudanese government made on the situation in Darfur.  Very few people in the Arab world know what really happened in Darfur, what was really happening.  When TV channels, Arab TV channels like Arabiya, like Jazeera, newspapers like [inaudible] tried to go to report to us what happened there, they were all censored, and I have examples.  They were all censored.  Arabiya had a documentary where you have testimonies of women who were raped by militias who were funded and armed by the Sudanese government. So where did the Arab governments help the Darfuri people, help the Sudanese people, in this conflict?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Nadim Hasbani, thank you very much indeed.  It's a difficult business, reporting on Darfur, isn't it, for everybody?  What you call not caring by the Arab governments could be simply not knowing.  There's a lot you don't know about what's going on in Darfur.  You can't give me a figure for the number of people who've been killed there, can you?
NADIM HASBANI
Can you give me a figure of the number of people?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
No, I'm asking you.  You have a particular stance.  I'm simply asking you, telling you that you cannot give me a particular figure.
NADIM HASBANI
Well, the UN, the United Nations - in which the Sudanese government doesn't really believe - the United Nations' last figure, dating back a couple of years, was 200,000 people killed.  That is a huge amount of people.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
And based on what? 
NADIM HASBANI
That is half the population of Doha.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Based on what?
NADIM HASBANI
Based on the inquiry they did.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You have no idea.  Last year, Britain's Advertising Standards Authority threw out a claim by the Save-the-Darfur Coalition that 400,000 people had died there at the hands of the government because it couldn't be substantiated.  There's a lot of misinformation out there, isn't there, a lot of misinformation?
NADIM HASBANI
OK, 400,000; 200,000.  I'll tell you.  Let's say it's 100,000 people.  So what?  We don't care about 100,000 people being killed?  We don't feel anything towards 100,000 people being killed and 2 million refugees?  We don't care about that?  We should feel nothing towards them?  And then, OK, the 100,000, the 200,000 - whatever figure it is, it's a huge figure, it's an enormous figure.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But my point is that there is a lot of not knowing about what is going on in Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
But why do we not know about what's going on?  I tell you, I have documentaries, people who were shot ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Or just not caring.
NADIM HASBANI
... who have testimonies of people in the refugee camps saying how their fathers were killed, how their brothers were killed, how their children were killed.  Why don't we know that?  Because the Sudanese government, with the complicity of the Arab governments, made [a] very good media blackout on what's going on there.  We know nothing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
This is a government that often turned up for peace talks when the rebels didn't.  This is a government that has offered places to - university places - free to people from Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
Sure.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
This is a government that ended Africa's longest-running war in 2005.
NADIM HASBANI
Does it mean they don't do media censorship?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
I'm not talking about media censorship.  I'm saying: does this mean they don't care about peace?  My point is, they clearly care about peace because they have a track record.
NADIM HASBANI
How can they care about peace?  They started the conflict.  Their own tribes against different tribes.  OK, you start a fire and then say 'I'm a fireman'.  They started the conflict there, for so many different reasons.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
They had an insurgency. They had an insurgency to battle.  Every government has a right to battle an insurgency on its territory.
NADIM HASBANI
So you do ethnic cleansing if you have an insurgency to battle?  You bombard civilian villages with Antonov planes if you have an insurgency to battle?  That's what they did, and the Arab governments supported them at the UN.  Algeria, Qatar, Libya - when they were at the Security Council, they supported them every time.  They blocked the UN resolutions, every time they blocked it.  Egypt was very, very dynamic diplomatically - to do what?  To block any pressure on the Sudanese government.  That's what they did.  They didn't care about their Arab brothers in Sudan at all.

TIM SEBASTIAN 
Nadim Hasbani, thank you very much indeed.  Now please let me call on Zeid Al Sabban to speak against the motion.

ZEID AL SABBAN
Thank you, thank you, Tim.  Just before going into what we did [and] what we did not, I would like just to remind Nadim, my dear Nadim, that it was in 2006, it was 14th June 2006 when we met in Casablanca and this was a year and a half ago, not four years ago. This is one. Second, I can tell you that yesterday when I arrived [in] Doha, I needed the report to quote and I didn't have it,  and I went to the website of the hotel where I am [staying] and I downloaded the report, the Arab League report from this website.
NADIM HASBANI
Does it say massive violation of human rights?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Please let him finish, please.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes of course it says that. To talk about why I am against the motion:  the Arab League was never preoccupied with the situation in Sudan like it was from 6-7 years ago until now, and peace in Darfur is [at] the top of our priorities, in all its tracks: humanitarian, security and political.  On the political one, as we were close to the developments in Sudan, we warned in [early] 2003 about the fragile situation in Darfur.  It was in a report.  In early 2004 we sent the fact-finding mission, the report of which was considered as one of the best to describe the situation and the remedies.  In August 2004 the Arab League didn't hesitate in calling for an urgent ministerial meeting at its headquarters to discuss the situation in Darfur and for the first time in our work, the African Union and the United Nations participated in the closed Arab discussions.  The peace talks for Darfur started in Nigeria three weeks later, under the chairmanship of the African Union and with 100% support of the Arab League.  The Secretary General was next to the Nigerian President Obasanjo at the opening ceremony.  All through the two years we were there, we didn't miss an opportunity, we didn't miss a day.  Even the Arab League was chairing the international partners' meeting during the last two rounds of the peace talks and we reached a declaration of principles and we reached also a peace agreement.  The Arab diplomacy presented by the Secretary General Amr Moussa was engaged once again to overcome the obstacles of the identity of the peace-keeping troops, through a closed dialogue with the United Nations, with the African Union and with the government of Sudan - and because of this Arab engagement we succeeded once again, in Addis Ababa in November 2006 and in Riyadh in March 2007, in getting finally the approval of Sudan at the Security Council on the hybrid forces, the idea of hybrid forces.  On the humanitarian track, since the eruption of the crisis, a lot of Arab [inaudible] provided their help to their brothers in Darfur.  They airlifted food shipments, sent doctors, vaccines...  I will not go into a this, a lot of.. I think the Ambassador mentioned: Libya, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and even Palestine, I remember.  Two months ago we succeeded in convening an Arab conference on Darfur, with pledges of $250 million, like you said Tim.  On the security track, the Arab League didn't.. as the Arab League doesn't [yet] have forces, we supported the African Union mission with about $25 million.  This is not much but this is what we did, $25 million, and Egypt now is sending about 1700 of their[s] ...  Last month once again we paid for enabling the ceasefire.  I'm saying this is during a time [when] Iraq is invaded, Lebanon is bombarded, the Palestinian question is getting worse, Somalia is getting worse and we are keeping the attention and the eye and all the energy [on] this case.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Zeid Al Sabban, thank you very much indeed.  Let me just take you up on your support for the African Union Force.  By this time last year, Arab countries had sent exactly 76 personnel out of the 7,000 troops of the force.  Egypt -34, Algeria - 13, Libya - 9 and Mauritania - 20.  76 personnel out of 7,000.  Please don't tell me that indicates Arab governments caring about the situation in Darfur.  76 people.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes, you are right, but it doesn't mean that the Arab governments are careless about ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
It doesn't?  76 people out of 7,000?  It's hardly a mark of great care, is it?
ZEID AL SABBAN
It's not a mark of carelessness, it's a mark of another way of dealing with the situation.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Like ignoring it.
ZEID AL SABBAN
No, not ignoring it.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Like sending the bare minimum.
ZEID AL SABBAN
A month ago, Egypt sent 1,700 soldiers under the UNAMID forces.
NADIM HASBANI
They did not send it. They said they would.
ZEID AL SABBAN
They will send it in.  And the Egyptian President even walked in between his forces that are going to go to be deployed in Darfur.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You consistently delayed any action that would have obliged the Sudanese government to settle. You were satisfied with the declarations of principles, of calls for disarming the Janjaweed militia, and when these things didn't happen, you went on being satisfied with them. You went on with more fine words, but people went on dying, didn't they?  Was that a mark of caring as well?
ZEID AL SABBAN
We weren't satisfied with what is happening, we were never satisfied with what is happening.  When we reached the Abuja peace agreement, we were very happy, as this agreement is a very essential step towards peace, but we knew that we have also a long way to go, and that it is not only by peace agreements that we are going to solve the Darfur problem, it's not only by peace agreements, and it's not only by sending even 100,000 soldiers.  It's much more sophisticated and we are going to debate about that.  It's much more sophisticated.

TIM SEBASTIAN 
We certainly are and we're going to do that now.  Zeid Al Sabban, thank you very much indeed.  I'm going to throw the topic open now to the floor and we will take your questions.  Lady in the second row, there, on the right.  We'll get a microphone to you.  Could I have your question please?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
One of the suggestions to coerce Sudan to seek peace is imposing economic sanctions.  This did not work in Iraq.  Do you think it would convince these political groups to seek peace? As Nadim said, already two million people are living in refugee camps including the ones in Chad, and casualties are estimated [at] a minimum of 200,000, the causes of which are attributed to either crime or starvation.  Do you believe imposing these sanctions could resolve or at least calm the issue down?  I address any one of the panel.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Zeid Al Abban, would you like to talk about economic sanctions?  You've always resisted them on behalf of Sudan, haven't you?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes.  Of course. Not for no reason.  We think that Sudan is.. we don't think - this is a fact: Sudan is one of the least developed countries according to the United Nations.  Economic sanctions will just put Sudan in a corner where there will be more famine, more disaster.  We don't think that with economic sanctions we can get to solve the problem.  We solved it, we reached a point where the government of Sudan accepted the hybrid forces on their own.  This was totally impossible to reach a year-and-a-half ago.  By dialogue we reached this point, they approved that, not with economic sanctions.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right.  Nadim Hasbani?
NADIM HASBANI
You know, economic sanctions is a bad word, especially in the Arab World, because we know what economic sanctions did to the Iraqi people.  I perfectly agree with you, but there is something called targeted sanctions, when you have Sudanese government officials ordering the mass killing of their own people - you can sanction them, not sanction the Sudanese people, but sanction the Sudanese leaders for killing their own people.  You can target sanctions on them, on their financial assets, on their travel, etc. without sanctioning the Sudanese people.  That's a way of putting pressure on them so they stop killing their own people in Darfur.  So what I would advocate for is targeted sanctions against the leaders who are guilty and not against the entire people of Sudan.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ambassador, you have a view on that?  Do you want to come back on that?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, I want to say something about sanctions.  You impose a sanction as a punishment when somebody's guilty, but it is disputed that.. why would Sudan deserve sanctions?  You know that the Security Council is the most undemocratic institution on earth.  [The] United States comes with a veto, they dictate everything they want on the Security Council, they pass it.  It's a matter of putting weight and leverage against certain members to vote for a certain position.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
There are five countries that have vetoes in the Security Council..
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
That's right, that's right.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
..not just the United States.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
That's correct but it depends on the situation.  They use this right to pass things even though they are not correct, and therefore the question is: are those sanctions justified, and why would you put a sanction on a country like Sudan?  It is a Third World country, it does not have economic might, it has its problems.  Instead of helping the country to overcome its problems, you impose sanctions?  Now, who's responsible for those people who died in aircraft crashes because of sanctions in Sudan?   There is a Boeing, in 1997, that [crashed].. 103 people died because [the] United States refused to provide spare parts.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
I think we're getting off the subject.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No - the sanctions, these are sanctions.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Let's take a question from the front row.  Saad Eddin Ibrahim. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I want to ask the panellist, isn't it the case that Arab regimes usually look the other way whenever one of them is implicated in an internal problem, even if it is crimes against humanity?  In other words, there is complicity among Arab dictators, Arab autocrats, and there is no record for the Arab League intervening or the Arabs putting their effort together to resolve any problem - any internal problem - even if it involves mass suffering and mass killing.  We have Somalia, we have the Kurds in Iraq and we have now Darfur.  Where has the Arab League really made any serious or successful intervention in all of these crises that have plagued the Arab World for the last 30, 40 years?  That is my question.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Zeid Al Sabban, straight to your door.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Thank you very much.  It's direct and I will reply by a direct answer also.  As you know, I mentioned earlier that we don't have even, the Arab League [doesn't] have forces like the African Union have, but this is why, concerning Darfur, we use the African Union energy, we use the African Union forces which [were] doing a great job.  We tried to finance it, this is one.  Second, about the inquiry mission that was sent to Darfur, this was an Arab League [mission] and we were very critical to the situation there, and I remember..and the Ambassador, I think he can remember also.. the government of Sudan was not very happy with this situation, with our report - but we did it.  I mean that we are in front of a new world, inside the Arab World and outside the Arab World.  Now we have for the first time, we have our parliament, we have Arab NGOs that can go and participate in the Arab League discussions.  This is new.  We are doing it.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Do feel free to come back on this.  Please. 
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You don't look that impressed by what you're hearing.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No, I am not, unfortunately, even though all the speakers are very articulate - but I feel they are skirting around, well, at least one side is skirting around the issue.  We have suffering that has been going on and this regime, the ruling regime in Sudan, has a record of killing its own people [on] a mass scale, not only in Darfur but before that in other parts of Sudan, in the south, for a long time. I don't want to get off the subject, but..
TIM SEBASTIAN 
I think we'll give the Ambassador a chance to reply to that.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
I totally object to your statement because it is not substantiated.  You cannot just come and talk about a regime killing.  Have you counted the people killed by the Sudanese government, if any?  You cannot testify to that.  So it's unfair in a public forum like this - you say a certain government is convicted of mass killing, that is.. that's unfair.  You should [praise] the government of Sudan for maintaining the security of the region of East Africa all these years, for the peace accord in Naivasha, that is a miraculous effort. That [this] is done is a miraculous record all over the history of Africa, I think. 
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Mr Ambassador, every word I said is documented in a 1000-page book on minorities in the Arab World.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It's all nonsense, it's all nonsense.  I can sit here and write thousands of pages about Israel, about the United States.  Would that make it true?  No.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Let's bring in Ahmed Diraige please.
AHMED DIRAIGE
If I may come in here.  I think the Ambassador, in his speech, he talked about supporting the Arab governments, that they gave unfettered moral and political support.  This is an indictment, because how can, if [the] Professor is not right, how can governments give such a government unfettered moral and political support when it has been bombing its innocent people by bombs inside their villages, when it has now about 3,500,000 people in the internally displaced camps, when there are nearly half-a-million people who have crossed the boundaries.  They're in Chad, they're in Central Africa.  When there are young men and women who were able, who emigrated from Sudan.  Some are in Australia, some are in Britain...  How can they support with unfettered - give unfettered support to such a government?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But you would admit, all sides have carried out war crimes, as the UN has said, all sides ...
AHMED DIRAIGE
But there is a difference.  The government's responsibility is to protect its people, to bring peace and security, and then try to help people to find a way to live, but when the government itself is bombing the people from the air indiscriminately, they don't know who's down there, is it a child, is it a woman, is it a man.. and then to the extent that there are three-and-a-half million people, and then, don't forget - is all the international community wrong?  Last year and this year there were demonstrations in 37 countries in support of the people of Darfur.  Are all these people wrong and the government is right?  I think the Professor's question is a very good question, because in our Third World, the human being is not valuable.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right.  Very briefly.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
If I may, we should understand the statement of the distinguished Mr. Diraige within the context that he represents the opposition, so we have just noticed that he increased the number from two million to three million and a half.  It is a false statement about the number of refugees.  According to the report of the United Nations, there are about two million displaced and refugees.. and also when Nadim talked about those killed, 200,000, Nadim forgot that his organisation ICG was indicted in the United Kingdom just last year for using the issue of Darfur politically to collect funds. And there is a lot of disinformation. We're talking about 9,000 casualties and that number is yet to be confirmed..
NADIM HASBANI
Ambassador, did you count them the 9,000? Where is this figure from?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
That's the government's estimation
NADIM HASBANI
I give you the UN's estimation.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right We're moving on.  Question in the front row, please.  You sir, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening, everybody.  Now I want to ask a straightforward question to Mr. Nadim and Mr. Diraige,  without going out of the subject, trying to condemn the Sudan government is going to take us out of that.  Now, Mr. Nadim is repeating, you are repeating the claim of 200,000 people who have been killed in the war.  This audience will be very happy if you could tomorrow publish the names of only 200, not 200,000, with the names and their villages, please, we will be very happy to see that in your website of your organisation.  The second thing is that your organisation have heard of the children who have been, and the babies who have been taken with the [inaudible] of the war in Darfur, they have been taken as slaves to be sold in Europe.  What [has] your organisation said on that?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, you've made two questions now.  We'll ask him to answer them.  Please, no statements. Nadim Hasbani?
NADIM HASBANI
OK.  The problem is [that] the Sudanese government doesn't allow any media to go to Darfur.  That's why you have this issue on numbers.  However, how can you explain all the aid that is flooding to Darfur, how can you explain all the aid to the refugee camps where people in the refugee [camps], they testify and tell you, 'My family, my three, four children were killed in front of my eyes.'  I have the testimonies on video.  It's on the Crisis Group website, I will send you the link if you [would] like me to.  People who testify how they were raped, killed.  What would you say if your sister or wife is raped?  Do you do nothing about it?  There are thousands of cases like that who are documented.  It happened in Darfur and it happened because of the government's support, and further to that, this is a major catastrophe:  you have Muslims killing Muslims in Darfur.  That's why we say the West should not meddle in it.  OK, but for Muslims, shouldn't they as a religious duty do something about it, say something about it? Send aid.  All the Gulf countries, there's a lot of money today in the Gulf because of the oil prices.  What are the figures of aid sent to Darfur?  I can tell you what Canada sent:  $150 million in aid.  Canada is 20-25 million people.  The Arab World is 250 million people.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Let's let the questioner come back here.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you, Nadim, for the same kinds of lectures we used to hear from the media in the West.  I think I've had enough of that one.  Another question for Mr. Diraige.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You've used up a lot of questions.  I'm sorry, we've got a lot of people who have questions here.  Thank you very much.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Can I add to this?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Briefly and then I'm going to take another question.  Very briefly.
AHMED DIRAIGE
What I want to add is the question about somebody giving you names of 200,000 people, who they are and where they come from.  It's an impossible question, so this question I think is redundant.  It shouldn't be asked.  The other thing is the children who have been taken by some French organisation.  Who took them out in the camps in the first place, to be subjected to this kind of treatment?  The Sudan government. So if the government was looking after its own people, not bombing them, not forcing them to go and stay and be exposed, to be taken as slaves, it wouldn't have happened, so the first blame was their own.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, thank you.  Lady in the third row, if you could stand up please, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
You've already mentioned what we have done, but what makes you think we haven't cared?  You could just suggest some [more] things that we could do to help.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Nadim Hasbani?
NADIM HASBANI
Well, we should differentiate between two things, what the Arab governments have done and what the people have done.  There was a Zogby poll last year, 2007, that was made in four different Arab countries, asking people about Darfur, if they care. You know, over the phone, they call you at home, and people said "yes we do care but we don't know what's happening.  We want to send aid but we don't know how to do it."  Because people are sensitive to what's happening but governments are not.  That's a major issue.  What governments should do is politically stop supporting the Sudanese government for killing its own people - it's killing its own population.  This is unacceptable.  Then what we should do as human beings, as part of the Arab society, is try to help the other by sending donations, by sending aid through the Red Crescent and other organisations, and this has not been done yet.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right. We're going to hear from this side.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
I wanted to say something about what this gentleman just said about a woman testifying to [being] raped.  According to official reports, I know that [some cases] of rape have been tried [inaudible] by a Sudanese court in Darfur, but to make it verbally, a general statement, and you [add] to it a few zeros, thousands of women testifying to be raped, this is unfair and it's not true. 
TIM SEBASTIAN 
How do you know it's not true?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It's not true because it's hearsay. It will only be true if he brought examples like the distinguished gentleman here, who asked the question. If he brought the name, the testimony, the report is taken.  The time is not yet right for talking about testimonies until the war is over, there is peace and then we open the records and see who [was] raped and who [was] not.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right.  I'm going to take a question from the lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening.  My question is to those against the motion.  Don't you think that what you see as help or care from the Arab governments is only a convergence of interest, just like Cairo?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Would you like to be more specific about that - convergence of interest?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I mean, you mentioned [as] one of your examples Egypt, and you said that it's helping as it's holding the peace conferences.  It's helping only because it has some interest as the Nile river crosses Sudan and came from there, and so it helps the Sudanese government to solve the situation only because it has some interest.  We don't see any help from any other countries.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Zeid Al Sabban?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes.  First I don't think that in Darfur there is [the] Nile.  The Egyptian and the Sudanese countries are very close to each other historically.  This is history, this is geography, we will not change it. As Darfur is very close to Libya and to Chad, this is history and geography, so there is always interest by the Arab countries in general and by Egypt and neighbouring countries like Libya, for example, in particular towards the Sudan.  But I have to say something else, concerning the bombardments and how the government is responding. I think without reaching the point where we can go to peace talks, where we can start these peace talks, we will always be facing the dilemma of rebels trying to change the regime of Sudan and government of Sudan, looking at those rebels as criminals, so we have to reach the point where we can find the forum of the peace talks, and this is what we are concentrating on since the eruption of the conflict.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right.  Gentleman in the fourth row, there, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening.  My question is for Mr. Zeid and Mr. Sirajuddin.  You're saying that the Arab countries are actually caring about Darfur, but about one year ago hundreds of Darfurian refugees went to Egypt and gathered in the middle, in the centre of Egypt, I think in January, and what did the Egyptian government do about this?  They splashed the people with water, cold water, in the middle of January and hundreds of people died, and about 50% of those people went to Israel and there they found the compassion and food and shelter that they needed.  Why [wasn't this] shelter and food provided by the Egyptian government?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Zeid Al Sabban?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Thank you very much for this question.  Indeed I was in Abuja at that time when this very bad incident happened, but I must say to you that I was personally involved with the United Nations and with the United Nations Development Programme in Egypt working on this, and I think that what you are saying - that the Egyptian government is responsible for that - this must be revised.  It is not the responsibility of the Egyptian government - and I was personally involved in this - it was a shared responsibility.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Shared between whom?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Shared responsibility between ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Who subjected them to cold water treatment in the middle of January?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I will tell you, there were rumours at that time given by.. I don't want to go into these details, it was rumours given at that time by some of the ...humanitarian [agencies]..
TIM SEBASTIAN 
But you're clouding the issue here.  The police used water cannon on unarmed people in the middle of January, didn't they? Fact. Fact. Fact.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes, they did. Yes, they did.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So they bear responsibility.  Fact. So there's no way of getting out of the responsibility of the Egyptian authorities for what happened, is there?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I am talking about another thing, when they were told that there [was] some [butane] gas with the refugees at that time and they were going to explode it, something like that, and we discussed this also with the United Nations afterwards.
NADIM HASBANI
It happened at demonstrations in Cairo as well. The demonstration was repressed, Darfurians in Cairo, at a different time, who were demonstrating against their situation, how they lived in Cairo, it was repressed.  How shameful it is for us as Arabs to go to Israel for shelter - can you imagine how bad these people's situation was, to go seek shelter in Israel? How bad their situation in Egypt was?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Why just focus on the Darfurians? I don't think that only the Darfurians...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Because that's the issue that we're talking about.
NADIM HASBANI
There are many refugees from Darfur... too many.
ZEID AL SABBAN
There are many refugees - too many refugees - from Somalia, from Kenya, and they are traversing, they are going by Egypt to Israel.  It's not only Sudanese.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ahmed Diraige?
AHMED DIRAIGE
I think the question asked by some young lady there is very relevant, and I think the relations between nations is not based on love, it is based on interests.  This must be clearly understood, and Egypt has genuine interest in the Sudan, because of the Nile, and Egypt was a colonial power, it was a condominium, they ruled the Sudan jointly, but Egypt is still is hoping that one day there will be unity between Sudan and Egypt, and I myself find it illogical that the government of Sudan, who tried to kill the President of Egypt in Addis Ababa when he was attending the conference of the Organisation of African Unity...
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Objection, Sir...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Give him a chance to reply.
AHMED DIRAIGE
No, but it's true, it's a fact, it's a fact.  The relations between the government - the Sudan government - and Egypt were so bad at the beginning when the Islamic fundamentalists took over.  First of all they nationalised all the Egyptian property there.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Ahmed Diraige, let's give the Ambassador a chance to reply to your allegations.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, what I wanted to say generally is that this incident of refugees in Egypt is an isolated incident.  You cannot just put the whole heritage of the Egyptian-Sudanese relations on the way Egypt treated those refugees.  They may have used ...
ZEID AL SABBAN
Two million and a half, Mr. Ambassador, two million and a half Sudanese are living in Egypt right now.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, about 5 million Sudanese are living in Egypt. 
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do they have any rights?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
So I'm not just blaming Egypt for that and for everything.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Where were they, where were they?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
And the other thing, I just wanted to object to the statement made by the distinguished Mr. Diraige that the government of Sudan tried to kill the President of Egypt.  This is nonsense, this is incorrect - even Egypt did not say that.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK.  You've made the accusation, he's denied it, let's move on.  The gentleman in the first row there, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for the panel for the motion.  As you were saying, Mr. Ahmed, money is not enough, $250 million, it's just not enough.  You wanted us to negotiate peace talks, we had Abuja peace talks.  What exactly would you like from your fellow Arab governments?
AHMED DIRAIGE
I would like that we as Muslims ...as Allah said to us.. [..in Arabic..]
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Could we do this in English, please?
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes, it means that if two factions of Muslims quarrel with each other, you must come to mediate between them and to try to solve the problem, and if one party is the culprit, then you fight that party.  This is what we want, we want our Arab brothers not to unconditionally support the government, but to come and say, 'Well, look, you are all Sudanese, Sudan is a member of the Arab League.  I think what they want is wrong. You, the government, has responsibility.'  Try to mediate, try to intervene positively but not unconditionally support the government as the Ambassador said.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right.  We're going to take a question, the gentleman at the back, you sir.  We're waiting for a microphone for you.  It's coming.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much.  My question is for the opposition, especially Mr. Zeid since he was taking the position of defending Egypt.  I'm Egyptian, by the way.  Mr. Zeid, you claim that the Egyptian government does care about the Darfur situation.  Wouldn't you say that an army like the Egyptian army, that was able to cross the Suez Canal in '73, break through the Bar Lev Line, push the Israeli forces all the way, hundreds of kilometres, through Sinai to the Palestinian borders, wouldn't you say that such an army would be able to contain or sustain the situation of Darfur, or at least stabilise the situation?  And please don't tell me that 1700 soldiers are enough.  For God's sake, it takes more soldiers than that to stop a protest in Cairo.  Thank you very much.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Thank you.  Indeed the first supply made by Egypt was much more than this, and this was according to a lot of negotiations between the United Nations and between Egypt, and I have to tell you something, that according to the rules of the United Nations for places in conflict and for countries in conflict, they are not allowed, I mean, the neighbouring countries, to send more than a certain number. So, the Egyptians..
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Do you always go by the book, sir?
ZEID AL SABBAN
No, because we were in favour of sending much more troops from Egypt, as the Arab League, and the Secretary General of the League of Arab States last October, excuse me, last September, he sent a letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations in this regard.   The offer of Egypt was much more.  The United Nations has its rules.  It rejected the offer made by Egypt and it took certain numbers.  This is what I'm talking about.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
So the Egyptian government wanted to send more soldiers but they couldn't because ...
ZEID AL SABBAN
Yes, yes.  Not only the Egyptian government.  It's concerning the neighbouring countries.  They are not allowed to send certain number of troops, because the neighbouring countries...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
How many did it want to send?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I think 3,000.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nadim Hasbani?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much.
ZEID AL SABBAN
So they cannot send, for example they cannot send the 26,000.  The Egyptians [could] send easily the 26,000  - but they cannot.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, Nadim Hasbani, you wanted to come in on this?
NADIM HASBANI
Regarding neighbouring countries, this UN rule was made mainly because some parties at the conflict did not trust the neighbouring countries' neutrality in the conflict, so first it's a lack of trust towards Egypt.  Second, the 1,700 ...
ZEID AL SABBAN
This is the principle, it's all over the world.
NADIM HASBANI
...OK. The 1,700 are not protecting civilians in Darfur because they are not in Darfur.  This is a promise in the air for the moment.  I'm waiting for the result and then I will judge.  For the moment it's a promise in the air, and Egypt itself...
ZEID AL SABBAN
How in the air? This is documented.
NADIM HASBANI
Egypt itself stopped the UN resolutions...it was a major obstacle to the UN Resolution calling for sending troops to Darfur under [the] UN.  It postponed this resolution for months and months.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Just one brief comment, Ahmed Diraige.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes, in my introduction, I mentioned the fact that we, the Third World, including the Arab World, we have not yet understood the idea of unity in diversity, and I also said that the issue of Darfur and the Sudan is very complex, because the Sudan is a country, the people of which are partly Arabs and partly non-Arabs, and in my view they have to live together, and if the Arabs only support the Arab section of the Sudanese population and another Arab supports another Arab, we'll always have a conflict.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK. All right. We're going to move on, Mr. Diraige, we're going to move on because we've got a lot of questions here.  Lady in the second row, you've been waiting a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening.  My question is for the proposition.  According to international law, it is stipulated that a country should deal with its international issues without foreign intervention.  Therefore isn't it legitimate that Arab governments aren't helping?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Thank you.  Nadim Hasbani.
NADIM HASBANI
Thank you.  Can you explain why you have 10,000 UN soldiers trying to protect peace in Southern Sudan, why you cannot have the same amount of UN soldiers trying to protect peace in West Sudan.  What's the difference?  Is South Sudan more privileged than West Sudan, or the South Sudanese people are more important so they deserve to live and the Westerners don't deserve to live?  This is double standards, this is where the international law is not implemented.  When the Sudanese government comes and tells you, 'I'm going to fight and resist Western invaders in Darfur that come under UN, but in the South, the 10,000 soldiers of UN are welcome to protect peace,'  this is double standards, this has nothing to do with what the Sudanese government is saying.  All that is needed is to protect the civilians, to protect people like you and me, to stop them from living in tents for years.  They're been living in tents for five years.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, let me bring in Zeid Al Sabban here.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Nadim, for me, I'm totally convinced about the importance of bringing security to the Darfurians and you know my position in this regard.  About comparing the south and the west, the United Nations troops were introduced to the south of Sudan by agreement between the National Congress Party and the [SLM?] in Naivasha.  This is.. we don't have the case here in Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
So in the meantime they just die?
ZEID AL SABBAN
No, no, no.  We have another deal which is UNAMED - and here they are not only 10,000, they are 26,000 to go to Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
How many UNAMED soldiers are in Darfur today?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Today 7,000.
NADIM HASBANI
This 7,000 has been in Darfur since 2003/2004, correct? What have they done?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Just ask the distinguished Mr Diraige if 100,00 soldiers in Darfur can solve the problem. It's not about soldiers..
NADIM HASBANI
It's about protecting the civilians in Darfur.
ZEID AL SABBAN
It's more sophisticated.
NADIM HASBANI
What's so sophisticated about not allowing people to kill other people?
ZEID AL SABBAN
That's it, that's it - but it is much more than this, and you know, historically between 1874 and 1896 you know that this was much, much worse than what Darfur is witnessing now.  At that time, in Darfur and you have here a lot of Darfurians..
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Right.  Lady in the fifth row, you've had your hand up for a while, yes, you.  Thank you. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'd like to ask this question to Mr. Nadim.  What political reasons do you think the Arab nations might have for not providing sufficient aid to ease the Darfur crisis?  Thank you.
NADIM HASBANI
It's a very simple principle.  It's been going on for 30 years.  My dictatorship protects your dictatorship, that's the principle.  Why?  Because when you kill your people, you don't want me to come and ask, 'Why are you killing them?' Why?  Because when I want to kill my people, I don't want you to come asking me what I'm doing with my people.  It's that simple.  It's unfortunately not more complicated than that.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Do you buy that?
NADIM HASBANI
President Bashir was not elected.  His regime was not elected.  It's a dictatorship.  It's not held accountable, that's the main problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Are you happy with that answer?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK.   The lady a little further along from you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you.  I have heard a lot of mention of money coming from all of you and it's probably the only set of numbers that you have given us that we can count on, so I'm asking about finance, and how you believe that because a country can sign a cheque, they're supporting or caring.  Is that your definition of caring? Can money actually change mentalities and if those people actually supporting you financially, are they people that you can count on to save Darfur?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ambassador, would you like to answer that one?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Zeid Al Sabban.   [Addressing Sirajuddin Hamid Yosouf] I don't know why you're shying away from money.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No, no.  I want you to rephrase the question, please, so I can get a better grasp of it.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Can money change mentalities?  Does it make people care?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, money is not everything.  There is peace.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
That's all you've been mentioning.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Pardon?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
That's all you've been mentioning, that's the only support, it's all talk and no walk basically.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You don't need money, you're getting $4 billion a year in oil revenues these days, you don't need money, do you?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Well, given the root causes of the problems in Darfur ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You can afford to fund the peace-keeping yourself.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
...money plays a greater part because it is partly an economic problem.  It is a competition between poor people, cattle herders and farmers over meagre resources, infrastructure is weak, there is no water, so if there is money, that would contribute heavily to the resolution of the problem.  The Arabs, when they met in Khartoum last October, they pledged to dig 110 wells, but that's not enough.  We are still looking forward [to] Arab governments, being the core of the OIC, and I said that in my introductory statement, still to yield and to provide more help.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Ambassador, do you measure help from your fellow Arab states by the amount of money that they give you, they offer you?  This is the basis of the question I think you're asking.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
OK.  It isn't only the money.  We receive money, we receive political support, we receive encouragement.  The media in the Arab World interfered and corrected the record and straightened the record about the lies and the vicious circles of organisations like ICG and others who talk about Sudan.  I mean, they just compile reports from everywhere and then they put it and print it nicely and distribute it all over the world.
NADIM HASBANI
Please, please...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ambassador, you've called his reports nonsense - let him reply.
NADIM HASBANI
Mr Ambassador Arabiya channel went and filmed those people.  Let me justify the money, I'll come back.  The money, because refugees in tents, you know, they live in nylon tents, what they need, why the money is needed, is for blankets, for food, for medicine, this is the basics.  Why you are mentioning the money first?  It's because first we have to let these refugees survive.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I understand the significance of the money, but I'm asking about how they care, how is that related to caring?  You're talking about financial aid and that's totally different form....  Can you count on the people who are signing those cheques to save Darfur?
NADIM HASBANI
No, no, just to help people in Darfur survive.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please don't all talk at once, please.
AHMED DIRAIGE
There is a place for both, because money is needed, one, to alleviate the grievance of the people who are in the camps.  It can be in kind or it can be in cash.  Now, in cash, why should it be paid to the government, the government doesn't take it to the people - but your question is, is money enough? And you are right, money is not enough.  The problem is not only money, it's a problem of integrity for the person, his self-respect, and the other things they need.  And as I said, the problem of Darfur is very complex.  It's a problem of the feeling of people that they're marginalised.  They are not getting their fair share from the wealth of the nation, and they rebelled.  They didn't rebel to get money, they wanted to get more services, to get development projects and to participate in the policy-making of the government. 
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ok, let me move on. Let me move on to another question...
AHMED DIRAIGE
So money cannot do this, you are absolutely right, but the money was necessary and one important thing, if you'll allow me...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very briefly, please, please..very briefly, just one point.
NADIM HASBANI
I'll tell you how Arab media helped you - I'll tell you how the Arab governments.. no, I insist, I have a documentary with me that was filmed in Darfur...
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No...ICG doesn't have anything...
NADIM HASBANI
It's on the website..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we just let him finish...
NADIM HASBANI
Let me tell you the story.  It's called, the documentary filmed by Arabiya TV Channel, everybody here knows Arabiya TV Channel, it's called Jihad on Horseback.  It was filmed in Darfur, in refugee camps, you can see the refugee camps, they are Arabs, they didn't lie.  It was never aired.  I have it in my hands, it was never aired because President Bashir called the cabinet of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and told him, 'Please, do not let this documentary go out - you know why?  Because if you see the documentary, you and me will start crying when we see it.'
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
How do you prove that between President Bashir and King Abdullah - were you there?
NADIM HASBANI
It was on the Arabiya website, they said, 'We are facing the pressure not to air it.'
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Just reply to what he asks.  You're saying it's not true, you don't know whether it's true or not.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, let's give the audience an example.  A few years ago, before the conclusion of the Naivasha Agreement, we used to hear documentaries about the slavery in Sudan..  We see people brought in a line chained and they were sold and money exchanged.
NADIM HASBANI
But that's a different subject.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No, no, no, please, please.  There are so many documentaries like this.  Now the agreement was signed and it's all open, nobody dared to come out and tell us where are those slaves.
AHMED DIRAIGE
Those what?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Slaves.  They are making movies about slaves.
NADIM HASBANI
So you're saying the two million and a half refugees don't exist?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Gentlemen, please, please. We're going to have a question from a lady in the second row, please.  And if you can kindly not all talk at the same time, I'd be awfully grateful.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. I would like to draw the panellists' attention to the role of the US in the whole conflict.  It seems that the Arab governments have not been able to or have not been willing to help, generously help the Sudanese government, because they're allies with the US.  How much truth is in this assertion?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Nadim Hasbani, do you want to answer this?
NADIM HASBANI
Well, you know what happens is, the Sudanese government always tell you, this is a US conspiracy, they want to invade Darfur, they want to take our oil like they did in Iraq, etc.  That's wrong, that's wrong, that's three times wrong, because what the US did in Iraq, you had the foreign element called the United States who came and invaded Iraq.  In Darfur you have the local element, not a foreign one, called the Sudanese government who went and killed its own people.  It's not about foreign invasion, it has nothing to do with the US.  It's about a government killing its own people.  It's your police here out in the street coming and killing you.  What does the US have to do with that?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, let her come back on that.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The US has all of a sudden been interested in the national resources of Sudan, and this seems to be following up on what has happened in Iraq, so do we see Sudan as a next "Iraq" on the US agenda of war against terrorism?
NADIM HASBANI
Not at all.  I don't know what the US sees there, but what I see there is refugees and people being killed.  Still again, what does this have to do with the United States?  It's an internal Sudanese matter where people killed each other, where African tribes and Arab tribes killed each other, and the Arab tribes were unfortunately funded and armed by the Sudanese government.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Excuse me Nadim, it's not Arab tribes killing African tribes.. it was never like this.  It was some clans in Arab tribes...  I have to return to the question because it is not enough, for the question that was posed two minutes ago.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
No, we can't keep going back to questions..
ZEID AL SABBAN
I will tell you why the Arabs are not seen in Darfur, because we don't have a branch, a very important branch in the civil society, the Arab civil society.  Our Arab civil society is mainly, mainly a political one.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So whose fault is that?
ZEID AL SABBAN
I don't know.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, OK.  Then we'll seek inspiration elsewhere.  Gentleman on the front row there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Logical statements need simple reasoning.  Illogical statements need strong justification.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Could we have a question please?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Here is the question.  How come that the government kills their own people? This is the first question. The other question..
TIM SEBASTIAN 
No, please - Ambassador, would you like to take that question?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
This is a good question.  How come a government can kill its own people?  Would the government of Egypt kill the Egyptians and the government of Sudan kill the Sudanese and so forth? 
AHMED DIRAIGE
Yes.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
It is a statement, a statement that is said by people like  ICG, by the opposition ...
TIM SEBASTIAN 
It's a question, do you want to answer it, Ambassador?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
No government kills its own people.
NADIM HASBANI
Saddam Hussein killed his own people. 
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Saddam Hussein?
NADIM HASBANI
Yeah, wasn't he Arab?  He killed his own people, in the north and in the south.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Are you sure of that?
NADIM HASBANI
Yes.  In Sudan, is there the military force other than the Sudanese army who has Antonov planes to bomb villages?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Iraq is not Darfur, Nadim. 
AHMED DIRAIGE
Who has the bombs?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
There is no comparison between Iraq and Sudan -
NADIM HASBANI
It's an Arab country.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Would you let me finish my statement - except in one way.  According to the US  policy, one minute on Iraq on the media, one minute on Darfur in the media is two minutes less on Iraq.  It is an issue that is meant to distract the public opinion in the world.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
You're not serious, are you Ambassador?
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
Yes, I'm serious about this, yes.  That's the issue, talk about Darfur because there is no issue in Darfur, then this is two minutes less on the issue of Iraq.  The issue of Darfur is an internal issue in American politics.  Why?  Why isn't the issue of Gaza and the Israelis bombarding, killing the Palestinians every day became an internal issue of American politics, why?  Ask yourself this question.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, OK.
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
I would like also to ask a question, why those rebels in Darfur carrying arms are not sitting [down] to negotiations?
TIM SEBASTIAN 
All right, Ambassador, rather than have you answering questions, asking questions, we'll have the audience asking questions please.  Lady in the third row.  You, please.  Lady next to you, sorry, lady next to you.  She had her hand up longer.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening.  My question is directed at Mr. Nadim.  How are the Arabs supposed to help and know about the Darfur crisis if the government is oppressing them, it's deceiving them through media and it's encouraging them to turn a blind eye on such issues, so what are we supposed to do?
NADIM HASBANI
There you just put your finger on the wound, that's the problem, that the Sudanese government succeeded in four years of compete media blackout not to allow the Arab people like you and me to know what's happening, and now they can have Mr Ambassador saying, 'Oh, nothing is happening,' - because when you want to try as a journalist to get a visa to go film in Darfur, you won't get the visa, you won't go there.  You'll have the guided tour if you go there.  You'll have the Intelligence walking with you, if you're filming there.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
So what do you do?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Nadim, 2 million are crossing the borders every day, and you know who is now, while we are talking, who is in Darfur filming and ...it is so easy...
NADIM HASBANI
A correspondent was jailed, the Jazeera office was closed for one year, they didn't go because of that.
ZEID AL SABBAN
This is not the problem.  What is happening in Darfur, we all know what is happening in Darfur.
NADIM HASBANI
So something is happening in Darfur?
ZEID AL SABBAN
Of course.
NADIM HASBANI
Then we agree on something, I'm very happy about that.
ZEID AL SABBAN
Of course, of course.
NADIM HASBANI
Because Mr. Ambassador said nothing is happening - only 9,000 people killed, only 9,000 people killed.
ZEID AL SABBAN
He didn't say nothing is happening. Don't put words in his mouth...
NADIM HASBANI
He did say 9,000!
ZEID AL SABBAN
This is another story.
TIM SEBASTIAN  
It's part of the same story.
ZEID AL SABBAN
In Darfur, there is a civil war and all of us, we know it - and it was the responsibility of the League of Arab States to say what is happening, and we did that, we did our report.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
OK, Zeid Al Sabban, thank you very much. 
SIRAJUDDIN HAMID YOUSUF
One last point. There is free access to Darfur... Zeid [pointing at Nadim Hasbani], you can go...[inaudible]
NADIM HASBANI
My visa was rejected Mr Ambassador- please, which access? My visa was rejected, in a very rude way it was rejected..
[inaudible]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we please, could we please have one more question? Lady in the second row, you please.  Can we get the microphone?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening, everyone.  Since the beginning of this, let's say debate, you were saying, Mr. Nadim, that there is no media, the government, the Sudanese government is not providing any media, so no-one knows what's going on there?  Well, let me tell you something.  How come, how are you saying so, if we are all sitting down here today and knowing exactly what's going on, how can you tell that?  Apparently you yourself know a lot, I'm telling you a lot about this, you've been talking since the beginning, doing a great job, so apparently yes, there is media and the media is working properly.  Thank you very much.
NADIM HASBANI
There are two media we're talking about.  We're talking about Arab media and Western media.  Western media, what they did, they go illegally through Chad, they go in, they film, they go out.  Sometimes they are arrested because they went in illegally.  Arab media is not allowed to go in.  Did you watch anything, any footage on refugees in Darfur on the Arab channels?  I haven't.  It's very hard to find some.  They don't exist.  You have... they report on what's happening in the UN about Darfur.
TIM SEBASTIAN 
Let her come back to you, she just wants to make a point.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The point is knowing about the issue, right?
NADIM HASBANI
Through Western media.  But in the Arab World not everybody knows English.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But Arabs do know.
NADIM HASBANI
Sure, but not everybody, only the elite.   The normal people, the man in the street, doesn't know about it because they don't ...
AUDIENCE Q (F)
There you go again, you're saying they do not know about it.  How come? They know, whether it's from the Arab or from the Western media, they know.
NADIM HASBANI
They do know from the Western media, we agree.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you, they do know, so we can take an action, Arabs can take an action.
NADIM HASBANI
Hopefully, I really hope so.

Well, we have come to the point of the proceedings where we are going to vote on the motion 'This House believes that Arab governments couldn't care less about Darfur'.  Would you please take your voting machines? If you want to vote for the motion, that is the side represented by Ahmed Diraige and Nadim Hasbani, would you press button one, the yellow button. If you want to vote against the motion, that's the side represented by Sirajuddin Hamid Yousuf and Zeid Al Sabban, would you press button two, the red button. And would you please do that once. In a few seconds your vote will be transmitted to our computers and we should have the results for you on the screen.

All right, the result is coming up on the screen: 81 percent for the motion, 19 percent against. The motion has been resoundingly carried. It just remains for me to thank our distinguished guests for making the journey here to Doha to take part in the Debate. Thank you very much to you the audience for your questions. The Doha Debates will be back again next month. Until then from all of us on the programme have a safe journey home, good night, thanks for coming. Good night.