This House believes that Arab women should have full equality with men

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, good evening and a very warm welcome to this, the last in our  current series of Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation.  As many of you know, we've discussed some of the most controversial political issues in the region, but tonight we go directly into the homes, classrooms, workplaces and parliaments of the Arab world to look at one of the most contentious subjects of all -  the rights of women.  Despite talk of reform and change in the region, this remains one of the most bitterly contested battlefields.  Our motion tonight is, 'This House believes that Arab women should have full equality with men' and our speakers represent a variety of different standpoints.  Speaking for the motion, Toujan Faisal.  She was the first woman to win a seat in Jordan's parliament in 1993, but things didn't go that smoothly for her.  In 2002 she wrote an open letter to King Abdullah discussing corruption in government and was then convicted on charges of seditious libel, only to receive a royal pardon after civil rights protests and a hundred days in jail.  She's now a campaigner for free speech and human rights.  With her, Tareq Mohamed Al-Suwaidan, who's well-known as the presenter of religious television programmes.  He's also a prominent businessman in the region and a supervisor of engineering at the Ministry of Oil in Kuwait where women were recently granted the vote, so he's got plenty to tell us.  Against the motion, Sheikh Jihad Brown.  He's an American-born Islamic scholar based in Abu Dhabi.   He's lectured and taught at various Islamic courses around the world and spent much time researching in the rural villages of Morocco.  And with him, Khola Hasan.  Born in Saudi Arabia, she now lives in London and lectures regularly at Islamic universities, mosques and schools.  She's currently working on her second book Discussing American foreign policy, Islamic history and faith. Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. And now let me call first on Toujan Faisal please to speak for the motion.

TOUJAN FAISAL
I think basically that the issue we're discussing is, at its roots, political. I must say this because I am a politician. Actually I became a politician because I discovered that all the basic issues of human life have their roots in politics, and what we're discussing is a question concerning power, decision-making, rights or privileges, and duties, and if this is not about politics, what else could be? And even if we look at politics in the modern sense, in the way it's been practised in recent years, it's connected with human rights issues, and if we talk about human rights issues, there too comes women's rights. There has been so much discrimination against all kinds of abuse of individuals all over the world, and there are all kinds of pretexts. Some of them were racial, based on colour or race, and some were based just on poverty. The poorer nations were considered less qualified, less able, even less human, and there are other kinds of discrimination based on religion or other issues. This does not make the discrimination between the two sexes, men and women, any less dangerous or any less wrong. It is basically a discrimination against human beings. So in this context, the context of human rights, lies the women's rights for equality. And the third point that makes it so political is what happened recently. In the last few years, the main topic all over the world has been reform and democratisation - not just the Third World but especially the Arab world and the Middle East where I come from. There has been even a pressure exerted by the superpowers or said to be exerted by the superpowers. But does this mean that are we going to have democratisation without giving half the population their basic rights? I think what's going on now is a trick. What I think is agreed on by the Arab regimes and by the United States, is to have a detour around the issue of democratisation. They don't want us democratised, so they talk about empowering women. How can you empower women when the whole nation is not empowered, when men themselves cannot have a say in their basic lively issues, not just political issues? So this detour makes women the Trojan horse through which the Western influence can be achieved so the governments can just handpick a few women, nobodies who are totally unqualified, and rubber stamp or insert them in a certain clause and say, 'Well, we have women participating.' I think this will be much more harmful not just to women's cause but also to the cause of the nation, because if we forge people's will, that is a very, very wrong step to take and we should not overlook it simply because the ones whose will we are forging are women. So I think it's a political issue and I think we should look at it as something concerning the whole nation and not just fall into this game of men versus women and women versus men. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Toujan Faisal, thank you very much indeed. How can you claim it's all political when so much of the discrimination that women face and so much of the mistreatment happens in the family, happens from people who are closest to them sometimes?
TOUJAN FAISAL
Yes, it happens within the family.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's got nothing to do with politics.
TOUJAN FAISAL
Yes. I myself come from a feudal family, my ancestors were feudal. In the feudal system, slaves are considered part of the household but they are still the slaves, not the master. I know this, in fact I know how my great-grandfather used to treat their slaves, they were of the household, so this is what happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Then you've undermined your own argument in a way. It's not politics, is it, it's the ...
TOUJAN FAISAL
No, it's feudalistic.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... families, it's tradition, it's custom that has to change, isn't it?
TOUJAN FAISAL
Now, feudalism was a system, a political system, and the feudal laws were well connected to the monarchs, but the world changed and now we have republics, we have parliaments, we have elections. If you remember, the first popular rights appraisal was in England, it was the Magna Carta, it was the rights of the nobility against the King over total power, but it wasn't the rights of the people, so the feudal system was a political system.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But are you saying it's all a question of getting the right laws?
TOUJAN FAISAL
Even the tribal system in the Arab world still remains a political system encouraged by the Arab regimes to keep their state of the people backward.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But Toujan Faisal, one final point. 16 out of 17 countries in the Middle East and North Africa enshrine the concept of equal rights in their constitution and women are still discriminated against and still suffer, so it doesn't matter what laws new politicians pass, does it?
TOUJAN FAISAL
It's because we have to really believe in equality, and women should start believing that they are equals. Unless that is achieved, laws don't change the status quo. We are here against the laws, against the constitutions even when they discriminate. We are here by force, by the same philosophy, to exist by force or to exist by (unintelligible). So we exist by force, so if we believe we are equal, we will act equal and we will actually achieve positions. I will not await our states or the United States to offer us positions here or there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Sheikh Jihad Brown, let me ask you to speak against the motion.

SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
We begin with the name of Allah, the most merciful, the most compassionate, and we wish safety, security and peace of heart and mind for everyone here today. When speaking about the issue of women in the region, we have to start by acknowledging first and foremost that we have problems in this region, that there are discrepancies, that there are situations degrading to women, and that in this effort to ameliorate the situation, we still have a long road ahead of us. Foremost of these issues or agents, catalysts that bring about this problem is the blurring of culture with religion which brings about a confusion in the minds of society. What is the religion, what is the culture, the domestic culture of this society calling for, the religious culture or the religious ideals, and what is merely tribalism, what is merely culture? First and foremost I'm not Arab nor am I a woman, but I am a Muslim and there's nothing wrong with men caring about the situation of women, so I think from that perspective I was asked to speak. For us as Muslims, and this is a region which is considered the Muslim world, equality is not the term that we use, it's not our discourse. This is not how we address the relationship between man and woman. Equality is a term, it's a construct, it's an idea. It's not a natural human right that every human being is born with. It's a philosophical concept that comes out of the 18th century French Revolution, that has at its heart a man-centred universe, that man gains his worth in comparison to other men, whereas that is not the way we Muslims look at things. In our estimation, in this world, in the Muslim world, in the Arab world, man and woman gain their worth individually according to their standing with their creator, so here the concept of equality is not our concept, it's alien to our discourse. It also comes as a bundle. You don't get equality alone, it comes with its brothers and sisters. It was the watchword of the French Revolution. It comes with liberty, equality, fraternity, and along with it afterwards, modernity, free market economy, and the latest brands, democracy along with Coca-Cola. At the heart of equality is the precursor to the death of God in philosophical discourse. Our vision is a God-centred universe, whereas the vision of equality, as we said, is that man or woman does not gain her worth except as she stands up to other men. Liberty has at its heart that man is the auditor of his own destiny, in command of his own destiny. These are not our Muslim concepts, there are cures for someone else's illness. We on the other hand may speak in terms of fairness, in terms of equity, in terms of balance. This is our approach to these issues.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sheikh Jihad Brown, thank you very much. How can you talk about fairness without equality?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
How can I speak about fairness without equality? Equality is meaning 'a sameness'.
TIM SEBASTIAN
To many people it's the same thing, equality and fairness.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Equality is meaning a sameness. How can we define equality? That's one of the things that I'm hoping for tonight.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You say it's a philosophical concept.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
It is a philosophical ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But it's a very real concept to many, many women in the Arab world who don't have it.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
How is it defined? How is it defined?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, they define it as not having the same rights as men.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
What is it exactly that they don't have?
TIM SEBASTIAN
What don't they have? The same rights as men. You know perfectly well, you've studied in the region.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
OK, what are these rights that they're missing?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Rights in law, for instance.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Access to law or protection by law?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Protection by law.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Or representation within law?
TIM SEBASTIAN
A whole basket of things.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
So is that what equality is? It's like a grab basket of negotiated rights that are negotiated over time?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why should a woman's testimony in court for instance only equal half that of a man's?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Does a woman's testimony in court decide a case in the United States of America or the UK?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why do you answer a question with a question?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
I learned it from Tim Sebastian.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think people have come here for some answers and you're merely posing other questions.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
So in which cases specifically is a woman's testimony only equal to two of the testimony of man?
TIM SEBASTIAN
In Sharia courts.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Well, there's many cases in Sharia where the only testimony is taken from a woman and none are accepted from a man.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You know that in some countries women are susceptible to harsher penalties than men for the same crime. This was pointed out by Freedom House in its latest report.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Which report is that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
The latest report issued last month, by Freedom House.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Under the title of?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Under the title of Human Rights for Women.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Which are those punishments that are more severe for women?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'll give you the report.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
It should be the same punishment for the same crime.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It says family laws relegate women to inferior status within marriage and family life. You're questioning this but you already admit that there are huge problems in the treatment of women.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Yes, there are huge problems.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So why are you attacking the basic premise instead of answering the reason for what is to be done about it and who's to blame?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
I'm looking for a definition of exactly which problems those are, so then we can deal with that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Discrimination, nationality and citizenship, domestic violence.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
That's a good one, that's a good one, I like that one, discrimination, nationality and citizenship. My specialisation is Sharia Law.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You may like it but you can't pick and choose, women don't pick and choose, they have to suffer all of these things.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Right. In my country, which is the United States of America, we don't have discrimination with nationalism and citizenship. Perhaps in Arab law there is a discrimination, and some countries do discriminate against women with regard to nationality and citizenship, but again nationalism is a concept outside of the paradigm of Sharia.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. We'll hope for more answers and less questions from you.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
OK.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tareq Suwaidan, will you speak for the motion please.

TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Thank you. (Arabic) First of all let me say that I'm very fortunate to be in Qatar Foundation, a very prominent institution and thank you for inviting me to be here at the Debates which are also a very prominent institution. First of all I would like to say that the situation of woman in the Middle East is miserable, and it is a true situation, it's in politics, in the law, it's in the families. We cannot hide from the truth. This is the truth and yes, not only woman have problems but also men have problems, but definitely the situation with woman is much, much worse than the situation with men. But this is not only in the Arab world. It's also in the whole world. You take the United States of America, you see for the same qualifications and experience, woman are paid 71% of the salary of men. In studying management we are taught about the glass ceiling where most woman have to stop at a certain position. They cannot climb the ladder. Why? Because they are women. Only 0.5, not even 1%, only 0.5% of leaders in United States, in the government, in the major companies, only 0.5% are woman, so it's a man's world, and in the Arab world, in the Middle East, it's even worse, much worse than that. Although some people try to blame Islam for it, I have studied Islam very deeply and Islam, Allah Almighty, has created us equal. This is stated very clearly by the saying of our Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, when he said (Arabic), 'Women are equal to men.' This is the basis of Sharia, this is the basis of Islamic law. Now, what happened is that in the past 400 or 500 years, we have been backward, we have been occupied, and tradition has mastered our society and some people are mixing up between Sharia and Islam and the tradition, and thus in the name of Islam, they are putting woman down. Recently in Kuwait we granted woman the rights, after a long fight. I was one of those advocating woman rights in Kuwait, and every time they got into a discussion, they blamed Sharia for it. I have studied Sharia very clearly and Islamic law does not prohibit woman from climbing into the ladder all the way to being a president of a country. So, what I would like to say is that we have to admit the problem, it is a traditional problem, and thus it is in politics and economics and because of tradition, it has nothing to do with Islam. Islam is very strong when it comes to the rights of woman. But I would like also to say that a lot of the problem also lies in the hands of woman themselves. They have to pull themselves up, they have to learn, they have to qualify themselves, they have to get skills and stop wasting their time, and again, if they are in the West, they need to break the glass ceiling. They have a double glass ceiling here in this region and they need to work harder to achieve that. Finally I would like to say that in the Muslim and Arab world, I would like to get some rights for men also. In many of our countries, dictatorships are in control and a lady like Toujan here was stopped from being a parliament member in the name of the law, etc. This is also the same with a lot of candidates who are men - they too cannot go into politics, so when you have a dictatorship plus tradition, then this is the situation that we are in, and we have to face it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Suwaidan, thank you very much indeed. Some women may take exception to the fact that you think a lot of them are sitting around wasting their time, but that's perhaps another issue which will come up in the course of the questions from the audience. But if they want equality as much as you say they do, why do they continue to vote for men who don't support that equality? So many do, don't they?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
In Bahrain woman were granted a vote and they nominated themselves. None of them were elected. Now, is this the problem of men, or is it also woman not voting for woman? So we need womens' leagues, we need womens' training, we need to give them this. 400, 500 years of no training, of backwardness has put its impact on woman. Now they need to work harder. Is the quota system a solution? I do not think so. I think the real solution is...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But what if they don't want what you want? I mean, women themselves ...
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
What is equality? Equality to me is, give me the right to choose, don't give some the right to choose and some, you give them ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
A lot of women say they have a special position in Islamic countries, they don't want to give that up. Why should you insist that they give it up?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
It's again, what is equality ....
TIM SEBASTIAN
Entitled to men's protection, special position.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Equality is, if a lady like Toujan would like to get that right, she should have it. If another lady doesn't want it, it's up to her. In the United States only 34% vote. Now, how about the others? They don't want to vote, you can't force them into it, so it's a matter of choice. To me equality means give me the right to choose, and give Toujan the right to choose as much as you gave me.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Suwaidan, thank you very much indeed. Let me now ask Khola Hasan to speak against the motion please.
KHOLA HASAN
Salaam Alekam. I speak today as a bridge between two very different worlds. I grew up in a very conservative religious family, but I grew up in London. I have received all my education in London, and as a Londoner, I'm very proud of the background that I come from. The thing is, living in London I see all the achievements of the West. I see progress, I see democracy, I see people being allowed to demonstrate in streets against the war in Iraq, for example. I was there demonstrating, which often you can't do in the Arab world. I write to the newspapers regularly complaining about various things and my letters always get published. We have free speech there and there's a lot of things in the West that I am very proud of, but again as a Westerner, there are a lot of evils inherent in Western society, and some of them I think are coming directly as a result of feminism. The social, moral and sexual anarchy that we are witnessing in the West at the moment I think comes straight from there, and I'm worried that the Arab world is sitting here, waiting to embrace this anarchy and that is dangerous. Secondly, I believe the word 'equality' to be a misnomer. Men and women are equal before God in the court of law, but Islam is very clear that men and women are biologically, physically, physiologically and psychologically different, and the law must cater for that. My fear is that the new legislation that has been introduced into the Arab world is fighting for a unisex world, where the differences between men and women will be eroded - that is not acceptable. My third point is that yes, Arab women, Muslim women, women in the Third World need access to voting, to education, to employment, to legal redress if there has been hurt in any way, whatever, they need that. There are pagan practices in the Arab world, they need to be abolished. We have genital mutilation of girls, we have honour killings, we have forced marriages, all these need to be destroyed, but I do not believe a solution to all these problems facing the Arab world is to go running to the West and transplant an entire, entirely foreign system on to the Islamic system. The Islamic world needs to find its own solution. It has to stop kow-towing to its colonial masters. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Khola Hasan, thank you very much indeed. You rail against what you call a 'unisex world'. Why shouldn't women want to do the same things as men? We now have two Muslim women for the first time, they've conquered Everest, they've climbed Everest, the highest mountain in the world. Why shouldn't they?
KHOLA HASAN
Women are different, as I said earlier, and the problem at the moment is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Different in what way?
KHOLA HASAN
We are physically different to men. We look different.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But if they can climb Everest, what difference does it make?
KHOLA HASAN
Wonderful, good for them, but the average woman is weaker than a man. The average woman is weaker than a man. There have been a lot of studies in America.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not if they carry a rifle, they're not.
KHOLA HASAN
No. But for example the muscle weight of a man is 40% of his body. Only 23% of a woman's weight is muscle.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But why should they be treated differently even if there are physical differences, why?
KHOLA HASAN
Because you have to make allowances for their weakness.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who says so?
KHOLA HASAN
God says so.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He does?
KHOLA HASAN
The thing is, I'm not saying that, being different does not mean that you're less important than the other person. What we need to do is to say that women are different, men are different, let's cater for their different needs, and not force women to become pseudo-men. When a woman becomes pseudo-man, she is no longer a woman. Women are fighting the femininity in the West, trying to ape men. How can that be healthy for women in society?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why do you call it 'aping' men, when there's simply a natural competition ...
KHOLA HASAN
No, there shouldn't be a sort of competition.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... between people, whether they're men or women?
KHOLA HASAN
No. Well, that is where I disagree with you very strong, because in Islam there isn't a competition between men and women. There is in Western society.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, competition between people, why separate them into men and women?
KHOLA HASAN
Well, you said the natural competition between men and women, and it's wrong. Men and women, if you know the Taoist theory of Yin and Yang, when the masculine and the feminine come together to make a whole as we make society healthy, and the minute you start destroying that femininity of women, you've lost half of the Yin and Yang, you've got confusion in society.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you feel inferior to a man?
KHOLA HASAN
No, I don't, I feel different, I feel very different to a man, I'm very different to my husband, but we are equal.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But yet you support a system where your evidence is only half the value of that of a man's in court.
KHOLA HASAN
Yes, but it's only in economic matters.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's in court.
KHOLA HASAN
That is in economic matters. There's a verse in the Koran dealing with the half witness, it's to do with economic matters. Now again studies have shown ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you told a radio programme that it was because you felt nervous when you went into court and women were more nervous than men. It's something you said.
KHOLA HASAN
No, the real reason is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you disagree with what you said?
KHOLA HASAN
Yes, I do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oh, OK.
KHOLA HASAN
The Koranic verse is very clear about economic matters and we know from scientific studies that women excel in verbal skills, which is why we're so good at talking, and men excel in different kinds of skills and they are better in monetary matters. That's the only reason, to make it easier, but it doesn't mean that a woman doesn't have a right to stand in court. She still has the right to go to court, and as I say there are some cases where a man is not likely to be. Midwifery for example, a man's testimony is not acceptable, it's a woman's testimony. I don't see men complaining if they're not allowed to talk when it comes to midwifery.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, you've just heard one complaint, that maybe we should be considering men's rights here tonight.
KHOLA HASAN
Well, I think in the Arab world, men and women have got problems, and I think a lot of these problems are not to do with either Sharia or whatever, it's to do with the colonial imposition that has reduced the Arab world and much of the Islamic world to sheer degradation and poverty, and still the Arab world is not taking the reins and saying, 'Let's go forward.'

TIM SEBASTIAN
Right. I'm going to throw this open to the audience in a minute, so please have your questions ready, but one final point. If you reject the idea of equality in the Muslim world, how are you ever going to deal with problems of discrimination?
KHOLA HASAN
Well, as I said, 'equality' is a misnomer. It's a very bad word to use here. In front of God, in front of the law, men and women are equal. If a woman commits a crime, she will be punished. If a man commits a crime, he will be punished ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sometimes harsher than a man.
KHOLA HASAN
Well, that is wrong, that is not acceptable as a Muslim. If both have committed the same crime, then both get the same punishment, that's very clear in Sharia. Now, if the practices of the, I think Sheikh there said, that there is a problem between culture and religion, if the culture is punishing the woman and Islam is saying, 'No, punish both the man and the woman,' for example when talks about adultery, the Koran says punish the adulterer and the adulteress, it does not say punish one, let the other one go. But you see, in Nigeria, there have been a lot of case studies that women have been punished and men haven't been. That is un-Islamic. We need to fight that, I keep saying that, but I do not believe that the way forward is to go running to the West and bring in their foreign ideology.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. Khola Hasan, thank you very much indeed. Let me take some questions from the audience. Does anybody have a burning issue that they'd like to discuss? The gentleman over there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
This is to Khola. How can you claim the term 'equality' is not suitable while you have in an Islamic court for example, we still have some judges saying a woman's testimony is half that of a man? I mean, during the second Caliph Omer, he actually appointed a woman to lead the finances of the state, and that was just 20 years after the death of the Prophet, so there is room for revolution in Islamic society, and if we are going to treat women with the same standards of 1400 years ago, I don't believe we're going to go forward.
KHOLA HASAN
But I agree with you that we do need a revolution within the Islamic world. That's very, very clear, and we need it in politics and we need it in social life. We need it everywhere, but as I said earlier, we need to find our own solution. Going to the West is not going to ...
AUDIENCE Q (M)
It's not going to the West - what's wrong with equality itself?
KHOLA HASAN
Well, as I said again earlier, there is equality, in front of God, in front of the law, in Islam, but there are gender differences for which Islam caters. For example men have been declared the maintainers of women, so they have a moral obligation to provide financially for their wives. Now that does not mean that women are not allowed to go out to work, but it does mean that for the family, the best thing is if the woman, especially in the early formative years of a child's development, if the mother is at home. How, what we have in modern society ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, can be just bring Toujan Faisal into this. She wants to say something.
TOUJAN FAISAL
You are saying 'equal but.' This reminds me of George Orwell's Animal Farm, in which the pigs come and say, 'All animals are equal but some are more equal.' With this 'but' all the evil starts. There are no buts in Islam. Sheikh Brown says that this is a notion of equality is not an Islamic notion. No, it IS an Islamic notion. Sheikh Brown says that God has created us and we just serve the road for which God, our creator, prepared us. This actually, this is a notion from the church in the Middle Ages or the Dark Ages when the church dominated, when the church was corrupt and was allied with the corrupt monarchies, then they said that 'God has created you to fit this place, so keep your place, don't have any aspirations to the other classes.'
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Toujan Faisal, so you reject Khola Hasan's argument. You reject her argument.
TOUJAN FAISAL
Yes, I do, but I want to correct something, that this notion that Sheikh Brown presented, the creator has created us for certain roles, stick to them, is not even a Christian, it is during the corruption of the churches in the Dark Ages that they had this notion, but in Islam, we are responsible for our destiny. That's why there is reward and punishment or else, or people should be ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let him answer that point, that you're propagating a theory that comes from the Dark Ages.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
OK. Equality is the theory from the Dark Ages?
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, that you were propagating a theory from the Dark Ages.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
And what theory exactly is that? I'm not clear on your ...
TOUJAN FAISAL
Equality is in Islam and what are the prophets saying is that God has created people equal. Women are people too.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Let's talk about equality, let's talk about what it means. Let's avoid reductionist definitions of it, and let's be a little more surgical. It's a matter of perspective. If we're talking about equality, then I prefer that we don't discuss equality in terms of French Revolutionary or enlightenment concepts. I prefer that we use something that is more specific to the region, something like equity, fairness, something like balance (Arabic). This is what Islam is about, is keeping its balance in society. Equality means sameness. If we're talking about the sameness of men and women in human rights, then Islam calls for that, Islam demands that. In security, sameness in security, equality in security, then Islam demands that. If we're talking about equality or sameness in rights to education, then Islam demands that and I found it very interesting, something that a university student told me this past week, she said that she doesn't see education, women's education, as a right. She sees it as a responsibility, and this is the Islamic outlook. If it is equality in access to legal protections, to due process of law, then Islam demands that, Islam advocates that, but if it's a physiological sameness for equality, then this is something that is impossible, is it not? It's equality, the issue here with equality. If equality means that we are to tell our daughters and our sisters that they will be insignificant unless they are filling the same, the exact same social roles that are frequently filled by men, then we are against this idea.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think that's what you were saying, was it? Dr. Suwaidan.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
I'd like to say something. Again, it's the right to choose. I have done a full study on woman in Islamic history. Let's take the clear example of Khowla bint Al Azwar, a companion of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and she was a fighter.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Was she required to fight?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
No, she was not, but she chose ...
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
She chose, exactly.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
... to fight. Now, that's what we're talking about. Let's not blame this on Islam, and I agree with Sheikh Brown and Khola Hasan on this. This has nothing to do with Islam. It's tradition that, and dictatorships and the occupation of the West to our world that have caused us into this situation. If we apply the true Islam, the clearest, and we will have no problems, Khowla chose to be a fighter. She killed 9 men. She was so skilled at fighting. Now, is she looked upon in Islam at a high standard or a low standard?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, let him answer then.
KHOLA HASAN
A very high standard. I was told the story when I was a little girl and I was very proud to have her name.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
OK, so she chose to, she chose to fight.
KHOLA HASAN
But she was not forced to ...
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Now her physical ability ...
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Dr. Tareq, but whose standard are we watching here? According to which standard are women being measured? They're being measured according to a standard that satisfies men. A university professor from Stanford University told me once that if a woman aspires to be as good as a man, then she has no aspiration at all. Why is it that we consider life according to a standard, to man as the standard? Isn't there something unique that the feminine has to offer society?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's hear from a woman at the back because I think she wants to say something unique. Can we get a microphone to you, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'm an Arab, I'm a Muslim, I'm a woman and I'm a Kuwaiti, and I'd like to congratulate all Kuwaiti women on the right to vote and nominate themselves. I totally agree with Dr. Tareq on what he said with regards to woman and children and the right to choose. I think as a Muslim woman, I have the right to choose, to choose to go to Jihad, to choose to work. I have the right to support my family, to not support my family. That's all given to me by Islam. I think the problem that we're facing as was mentioned before, the mix-up between tradition and Islam. Also we need to raise more awareness about Islam. We need to raise more awareness among woman, and many, many Arab and Muslim woman don't know their rights. We need to raise their awareness. The Prophet, peace be upon him, before he passed away, he said two things: pray and take care of women. So that is in Islam.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you have a question that you want to put to one of the panellists?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I don't agree when Khola says that women are not physically capable of Jihad. OK, we might be weaker in physique, but we can still go and fight. A Kuwaiti woman was the first woman to die during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait when they went and demonstrated. They were the first martyrs.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Khola Hasan, do you want to answer that?
KHOLA HASAN
Just to say the women of Algeria used the hijab to hide bombs and gunpowder behind when they went to fight the enemy lines, so there's never been a problem of women fighting Jihad as much as they can, but I think again we've got to say again that men and women are different. They are equal before the law and before God, but they are different. One of the primary problems that we're experiencing in the West right now is because of this absolute obsession with emancipation of women, get the women out of the homes, because only when women are out of the homes will you eradicate poverty and will you have a good standard of living, etc. etc. What is happening is there's a decline of the family, the decline of children's upbringing, the social and moral anarchy that's taking place in the West, and that's what I'm worried about, that when you force women out of their homes and say 'Compete with men, do everything a man is doing and forget that you're a woman and one day you're going to be in charge of your children,' that's when the problems occur.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, you want to come back on that. Let her come back on this.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Why do we have to look toward the Western democracy? Why can't we take the best of both worlds?
KHOLA HASAN
Exactly, I agree with you entirely.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Why do we always have to keep on referring to the West as showing us democracy and that they're forcing their democracy on us ...
KHOLA HASAN
Because that's the truth.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
... because they're not.
KHOLA HASAN
No, they are.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But we have the choice, we have the choice.
KHOLA HASAN
No, I'm sorry, but you don't know what's happening with the UN right now. Go to the CEDAW web site, the Convention for the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. It's been imposed by the UN on the whole world. Every Arab country, every Islamic state has been told ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
How can the UN imposes things on the world? The UN is made up of all those different countries.
KHOLA HASAN
Well, it's just that the UN will withdraw aid. It will withdraw aid. It will impose sanctions if countries do not legislate in favour of CEDAW.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But, excuse me, I have followed CEDAW myself. Although they have signed to it, the signatories still have the rights, some restrictions on them, if they don't totally agree to all the CEDAW regulations. So that's not factual, what you say.
KHOLA HASAN
It's not going to last very long, because every few years the UN checks and says, 'Show us what you have done in the past five years to implement CEDAW,' and if that's not enough, and again, you were saying why are we looking towards the West, because the Western model of equality is being forced on the Arab countries. You have to accept that, that's a fact. They're being told that if your women don't practise contraception the way our women do and don't have birth control and don't have abortions and don't go out to work, you will have some kind of sanctions ...
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Are we puppets? I can make my own decisions, whether to choose contraception or not. No, I'm sorry.
KHOLA HASAN
Arab politicians are puppets.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think she accepts you point of view. Toujan Faisal, you wanted to come in here.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, no, I'm sorry, I disagree with you. Arab women are not puppets. I think we are ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, could you let her speak, please.
TOUJAN FAISAL
Our side of the Debate didn't introduce the argument of the West nor we did not talk about the French Revolution. It's our opponents who did. We did not talk about notions that were there in the church in the Dark Ages. They brought it in. We were talking about rights in Islam and we are the ones who are for women's rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let me bring in a couple of other people there. Can we get a microphone there, to the third row, lady in yellow.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is for the team against the motion.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you stand up, please. Thank you very much. I'd ask everybody to stand up. It's only so that we can get a better camera shot.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is for the team against the motion. You kept emphasising about the difference between men and women physically. I don't think we're here to discuss that men and women are physically different - we know that - but we want women to have the same chances that men get in the workplace and in education. Lots of women in the Middle East, they don't have the chance to complete their education but they just stay home, and they don't get to reach somewhere important in their career, because men get that chance instead, so I think what we want as women, this generation, my generation wants to see women equal to men in the workplace and education. We know we're not the same, we're different, and we're equal and want to achieve this equality in the workplace and education.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sheikh Jihad Brown.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
So what you're looking for here is equity more so than equality. Equality as we said is sameness. The young lady mentions ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, you don't know that she's bought your definition, do you? You're making your own definitions now yourself, but you don't know whether she agrees with your definitions. (to the lady who asked the question) Do you buy this new definition, equity?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Equity is fairness, to have the same opportunities, to have the same, as we said, choices. Women have the choice to participate but they're not required to. Full equality means full sameness, that they will be required to participate in military ...
TOUJAN FAISAL
No, it doesn't mean the same.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
As far as you're concerned about women's education in the Middle East, women's education in the Middle East, I can't represent the Middle East, but Islam, which I can speak on, looks for women to be fully educated, it looks for women to finish their education, it looks for women to be educated, to be at the highest levels of education. This is something that Islam is looking for and women have always performed to the highest degree.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please let her come back in.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But sir, with all due respect, you and Miss Khola have been living in the West. You don't know what is like here. I mean, I don't have that problem but I've seen lots of examples where women, they can't complete in their education, or they can't go to work. They have to work in a place where it's only women.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Or even they're forced by their families to leave school in the middle of High School or Junior High School.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I've seen that too.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Right, especially in other countries such as Jordan and Egypt and so on and so forth. This is the situation but as I said, this is a phenomenon of the Middle East, this is a phenomenon of Arab culture.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Jihad, Islam is not on trial here. We're not talking against Islam. We're talking ...
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
What is on trial here?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
What is on trial is the situation for woman in the Middle East that came out from tradition and history and the dictatorships, that's what's on trial.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The lack of equality.
TOUJAN FAISAL
And misinterpretations of Islam.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I just remind everybody, the motion we're discussing, 'This House believes that Arab women should have full equality with men.'
TOUJAN FAISAL
... and now we're hearing some of them. Equality is not sameness. Women in this hall which feel equal are not ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let him come back on that, if you want to.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
I'm still trying to get an understanding of what equality is, so we have a reductionist definition of equality. We're limiting the scope of the word to a contemporary understanding that you hold as equality. Is this the situation?
TIM SEBASTIAN
But this lady in the audience, she didn't feel she had equality, do you? You don't feel you have equality. Can we get the microphone back to you for a second?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Well, I do have equality in completing my education thanks to my family, but I don't think I will have equality when I apply for a job. I don't believe that I will have it anywhere in the Middle East.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Because there is a devaluation of the role that the feminine .... Why is it that a woman, it's automatically assumed that she cannot perform the same task as well as a man, why is that?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I think it's because of the society.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
This is a problem of education, this is a problem of education within the families. This is a problem of understanding. It's that or, again, I can only speak from the standpoint of Islam, I'm not an Arab, right. I've lived here for the past 10 years, so I do have an idea of what the society is going through, but at the same time Islam is looking to bring out what is the best in women, in men. If a woman is talented and can play a role in society, can play a role in a certain position, then she should be given the opportunity to take that position alongside other men, and if she performs the same task to the same degree of qualification, she should receive the same pay as men, whether that be in the Middle East or the United States or the West in general.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, there's a gentleman up at the back who's been waiting a long time. Can we get a microphone to him please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
We are after all in the Qatar Foundation, and those of us who are educators in the Qatar Foundation are committed to equity, to equal opportunity, but more than that, we're committed to equality. I would never accept an excuse for a man or a woman that 'I can't do that because of my gender', and in fact I've never heard such an excuse. Since we are committed to equality in education, those of you who are speaking against the motion, do you believe that we're doing something wrong?
KHOLA HASAN
I personally stand for equality of women when it comes to the right to vote, to education, to employment. I've said all that, I don't want to repeat it again. What I am saying is that what I find dangerous is when men and women are told that you are the same and there are no differences. You just said that there's nothing someone can't do because of their gender. When was the last time you met a man who'd given birth? It doesn't happen, it's never going to happen. You can go to the moon, you can't have children, you can't lactate, you can't have PMT, you can't have menstruation and these are things that really affect women and they need to be proud of that, proud of their femininity. What the West at the moment is trying to do, or the legislation's going to do is to erode that femininity and say to women, 'You're the same as men, do not talk about all those other problems that you have, keep them hidden.' That's what's dangerous.
TIM SEBASTIAN
There's a lady in yellow just along there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening. We can have equal rights by law, right, but I don't think it should be imposed on every single woman that we should work exactly like men. I mean, we have our own situations, we don't go through the same situations as men, so I don't think it should be imposed that we should imitate the West. Men, it's an obligation on them to work but it's not an obligation on us to work. We should be given a choice, which I have exactly right now because I work. I can work at the moment, but I may go through situations in life that may stop me from working, but I don't think in that case that I had become, I don't know, wronged or it's injustice for me to have that choice, the I think the problem in the West ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me get this side of the house to answer you. Toujan.
TOUJAN FAISAL
There's always the argument that when we talk about women's equality, that we should be like men. Look what they're doing - do we really want to be the same? These men brought us to this backward situation, but we should have the right to choose how we could excel, we could set new standards. It doesn't mean because in the West they ask for equality or there's more democracy in the West than there is in the Arab world, which is true, it does not mean that we are photocopying the Western style. In our country it's men who brought us to this backward situation, and in the West it's men who are waging wars all over the world, developing weapons of mass destruction. Equality does not mean that we copy what men do. They should not be our example. There is like a model in each man's mind and soul to what human beings should be, so we should have the access to try and develop in that direction but not just to imitate our men or American men or European men. As my co-speaker said, it's the lack of choice, the lack of development, the lack of making decisions and bear the consequences of our decisions. Now we are bearing the consequences of men's decisions, and whenever we ask for our rights, they say, 'You want to do the same thing?' No, we don't want that at all.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, all right. Dr. Suwaidan, you want to ...
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Again, I think it's very clear what we're after. We're after equality in the sense that let people choose, let everyone have the right to choose. Now, the West, as I mentioned, is not perfect.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Is this called equality or equity?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Whatever, Jihad, it's not an issue.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
But this is what we're voting on, it is an issue.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Whatever. To us here, that's what we're talking about. There are girls here in the Middle East who are forced into marriages. This is wrong. It's Islamically wrong, it's wrong in every aspect. But it is happening. Now, we need laws to protect woman from that. There are men who are marrying a second wife for no reason. This is wrong. We need laws to protect woman from that. There are woman who are, their inheritance is taken away and there's no law to protect them. This is wrong. The whole society should stand against this. Now, this is not Islamic. Islam is not on trial here. We're talking about an actual situation. Now, when we give woman the right to choose, I hope that they don't choose to be like men, because most men are worthless, unfortunately!
TIM SEBASTIAN
On that note, let's hear from a lady in the third row. Let's get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
A while back there was a case about a woman imam that came up which was a big deal. Now, I would like to open the question to both houses. Is it acceptable for a woman to choose to raise her voice in prayer, or is it an example of equality between men and women in Islam?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
I would like to answer this. Now, when it comes to worship, it's not about the relationship between humans any more. It's about our relationship with God, and we worship God the way He wants, not the way that we want, so that is first and a certain issue on this case. You cannot choose to pray six times a day or four times a day. God has asked you, He ordered you to pray five times a day. Now, when it comes to worship, you worship Him the way He wants. Now, as the matter of a woman imam ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please be brief, there are a lot of questions.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Just on the issue of a woman imam, at the time of the Prophet the wife of the Prophet led men in prayers. So it shouldn't be an issue. When we make issues of these things, then the we miss out on the major issues.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
So you're basically saying it's acceptable.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
I'm saying if it is acceptable from God, that we worship in this way, then we should do it.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
So how would you know that?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
We know that from the Koran and the Sayings of the Prophet.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please. Khola.
KHOLA HASAN
Because I do disagree very strongly there. A woman can be an imam of other women. But a woman cannot be an imam of a mixed gathering of men, only a man can.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you happy with that situation that Khola Hasan has just painted?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The thing is, if a woman chooses to raise her voice, mixed gathering or not, her voice will be heard, so can that be accepted? According to you, I do agree with you but ...
KHOLA HASAN
I can't lead men in prayer but I can sit and lecture you until you fell asleep. That's acceptable.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Again, prayers are different.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. I have a question to Khola. I find it a bit strange that you are worried about the woman here from the effect of the West in general. I mean, you made it in the heart of the West, in London. Why can't women make it here in the Arab world as well? Back to you, Mr. Jihad. You want so many definitions for so many abstract terms. It's becoming a bit difficult to define liberty, freedom, justice. These are very basic, simple things in life, a factor of the will to exist and to be. What defines freedom? It's worse than Bill Clinton asking for a definition of sex. Thank you.
KHOLA HASAN
Can I answer that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes please.
KHOLA HASAN
I mean, I'm sounding like a broken record here, but I have said it again and again, that I fully believe that women should have all the rights to vote, to free speech, to employment, to education, to even choosing the partner you married, I do not have a problem with any of that. All I'm saying to the Arab world is, 'Do not look for your model to be the women of the West. Do not walk around with little bleached highlights trying to look like Western women. Look like Muslim women and know what your tradition and your culture and your religion are, and if there is a problem in the Arab world, it has to find its solutions in the Arab world and in Islam, not in Western democracy. You need your democracy here but you have to stop aping the West, that's all.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Granted, but they are not doing that. They are choosing what they feel is right for their own society at this time and place.
KHOLA HASAN
I don't think they are.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Nothing that a woman in Kuwait wants to do or Saudi Arabia or my country, Lebanon, has to be a replica of the West, and when that happens, it doesn't mean that's bad. Some mothers are successful, some mothers are not, so we take what's good, as the lady mentioned.
KHOLA HASAN
Yeah. If you look at Egypt for example. There they said women would really achieve emancipation and liberty when we start to imitate Western women, and they sent their women from universities to Paris and they said, 'Take off the hijab and imitate the women of Paris, so the Muslim women came back from Paris in miniskirts without the hijab.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, we're going to move on to another question now. Lady at the back, just there. Thank you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening. My question is to Dr Tareq. He said that we have the choice but don't most of the choices we make depend on the upbringing we have? So to begin with a solution, shouldn't we start with the families, the parents, and the governments should also encourage more woman activities and more woman jobs?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Yes. But I think there is even more than that. I think most of the problem that is keeping us from changing, we need a revolution, and the first revolution that we need is in the scholars themselves. Most of our scholars in history and today have been affected by tradition, and they interpret Islam according to the tradition, so when we break this chain and we start understanding Islam as it has been revealed, not as we understand it from history and tradition, then that is the start. Scholars, reformers are the start of all changes, and then it goes into the government, it goes into education and it goes also into the family, but we need to reform even our own scholars. They need to break this chain of tradition.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I specially want to discuss that all the formations in life have come from mankind. The Koran is clear, God was clear in everything he said, so the formations came from mankind, so we have to begin from the families that bring the new generations.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Of course, of course. Families have a major part of it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, lady in the front row. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to Mr. Tareq. Excuse me, Mr. Tareq, from my point of view women here in Qatar took their political rights and they were equal with men in all the political decisions, but here happened in Qatar a few years ago, one of the council here, there were men and woman candidates, but no-one chose the woman to be member of this council, although this woman are qualified and they were well skilled. Why do you think why people here in the Middle East do not choose a women with qualifications?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
It's not only the Middle East, it's all over the world. I mentioned to you the statistics at the beginning. 0.5% only of leadership in the United States today are woman, so this is an overall situation throughout the world. Now, women need to speak up, women need to unite and they need to prove themselves. Women in the United States were not allowed to vote politically until 1920, and they got it through uniting and pressuring the system, refusing the status quo. That's what we, I mean, if men don't choose you, then don't be silent about it, speak up, unite, be strong in media, etc. That's the only way, you have to prove yourself. Freedom is not given, it's taken, so you cannot wait for men to give it to you. That's my message.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady up there on the right side. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This is for the side against the motion. Women are not asking to be physically the same as men. We're asking for the same opportunities, because trying to be the same physically will never happen, but the same opportunities, that's equality, that's what we're trying to fight for. Khola, do you agree with that?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
They should have those same opportunities. What has been proposed here is that women should have full equality across the board, sameness in all sorts. We have all come to an understanding that there is a difference in physiology. A difference in physiology means that there is something unique about each, not that one is superior to another. What we're saying here is that saying that women only have worth unless they're the same as men, equal to men, places man as the standard. There is something unique that the feminine has to offer society. If we force our daughters and we force our sisters to feel that they will be insignificant unless they're filling the roles of men, then we lose that unique contribution of the feminine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nobody's suggesting they're being forced into equality, just that they have the choice. Isn't that what it's about, choice?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
But that's not the motion. The motion is should they have full equality.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you're suggesting that that involves forcing women into particular areas?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
It involves setting man as the standard by which the worth of other human beings are measured. A woman is not worth unless she climbs Mount Everest. A woman who is inspired to climb a mountain should climb that mountain but she should never feel that she is nothing unless she climbs that mountain, that she is insignificant unless she is the CEO of a company. If she is the CEO of a company, she's probably going to do incredible things there that most men can't do. If she's holding positions in the law-making process, we probably won't find ourselves in a lot of the predicaments that we find ourselves in right now, because I don't think that American women harbour a special grievance towards Iraqi women. I don't think we would be in a lot of the problems that we have right now if women were empowered in our societies, but it's because they're women and not because they act like men. They have value because they are women. What we propose in Islam is not a concept of equality but regional or regional-specific concepts of the tradition of Islam that says balance in society. The woman is not (Arabic), you translated it as equals. That's not what shuk means. She is the complementary half in Arabic, the shuk of a thing is half of a thing, and the half completes the other. The woman completes the man.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. There are lots of people who want to come in. Lady in the third row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is to Miss Khola. If imitating the West is not the answer to our solution, then why do you live in the West?
KHOLA HASAN
Well, I grew up there. I didn't have a choice. You can't choose the country you're born in, your parents take you to, and I did say at the beginning, I'm very proud to be a Londoner. I'm very proud of the achievements of the West that I'm part of, but the Arab world needs to realise there are some things it can take from the West and others it can't. It can take progress, it can take democracy, it can take technology. What it desperately needs, the Arab people need to learn how to stand in a queue for example, or drive properly and observe traffic signals, or learn how to go round a roundabout. You need to learn that from the West, not a problem with that at all. What I'm saying is, there are certain things you can't take and the social, moral and sexual anarchy that is taking place in the West you will end up with, if you carry on along that road, that's what I'm saying.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, briefly please.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Briefly, what I want to know is not what great things the Arab world and the Muslim world can take from the West. What can the Muslim world and the Arab world contribute TO the West? That's what I was hoping to see when I came from the West to take from you. What is it that you have to contribute that is original that helps solve the dilemmas that the West is exploring? Look for that in yourselves. You have it, don't hold back. Be who you are, that's what we're asking. Be original, that's all we want here.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman at the back.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Today's word is choice. I want to ask you a question. Under Islamic law, a Muslim man is responsible for the family finances - he has to spend on his family, and if he doesn't do so, his wife can go to court and can force him to pay for everything. So what choice and equality do men have?
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
So you're for men's rights now! He has the right to divorce, he has the right not to get married in the first place. He chose to be responsible, thus he should be held responsible for it. That is the situation. In a family relationship it is not a fight. As Jihad said very nicely, complementing each other. Yes, that's exactly what it is. We are not into a fight. What we are after here is real choice, give everyone the right to choose. Now, I want to comment on another issue and that is the West ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just briefly because we're coming to the end, we want to get a couple more questions in.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
I believe strongly although there are certain major problems in the West when it comes to morality, I believe strongly that the situation of woman in the West is much, much better than the situation of woman in the East, and it's more Islamic there than here. That's what I'm trying to say.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK. Lady in green, you wanted to make a point.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening to everybody. First of all my question is to the people against the motion. I am from an Asian country and recently I found a job here. And out here when I go to a lot of companies and government organisations, I see that there are specific locations where women have to work, and if I go into an area where it's fully occupied by men, they look at me as if I have made some mistake. Why is that so? I think that discrimination is wrong. Nowhere in the rest of the world wherever I've gone have I seen such a discrimination. That is the basic thing that has to be first eradicated, and then women have to stand up for their own rights, and if women don't stand up, nothing will happen.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Do you want to answer that?
KHOLA HASAN
Well, I wouldn't describe that as discrimination. That's segregation, something completely different.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, she calls is discrimination.
KHOLA HASAN
Well, it isn't.
TIM SEBASTIAN
She's allowed to call it what she wants.
KHOLA HASAN
But it's the incorrect word. You can look it up in the dictionary. But it's not discrimination, it's segregation which is something that is encouraged in Islam. It's not obligatory but it is encouraged, and often women are more comfortable when they're sitting with women, especially if you're having to wear the hijab and you're sitting with women, you want to sit with other women. You know, if you don't want to enforce it, you don't have to, but I think it's very healthy in society to have some element of segregation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Toujan Faisal, you wanted to come in.
TOUJAN FAISAL
The issue tonight is should women be equal or not, not the issue of segregation. We're getting away from the central issue.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK. Gentleman towards the back there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to Dr Tareq. God said in the Koran (Arabic). I'm not sure how to translate it in English but what I know ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you try to translate it so we all can know what we're talking about?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
The translation is that men are responsible for the family finances and his responsibility, his job, his duty is to look after his wife and his family. It's not his choice to do these things, and you said, other thing that you said that women have to struggle for their rights and such things, OK, you said that don't blame men not to give them their rights, because they have to struggle. It's not our fault not to give them their rights.
TAREQ SUWAIDAN
Now, is it their problem or is it a problem that came out with tradition, with history, with 4 to 500 years of backwardness. That's what we're debating. Now, for woman, for a family, a family is looked upon very highly in Islam, and it is the basis of the whole society. If you break the family structure, the whole society will be corrupt and civilisation will fall because of that. Now, how do we protect this family structure? By giving certain clear messages that both are responsible. You mentioned this verse, I'll mention to you another verse from the saying of the Prophet (Arabic). SHE is responsible in her husband's house. So both are responsible. Now, at the moment of disagreement, who will have a final say? The Koran says that in this case, the man will have the final say, because you need a leader at the end of the day. Now, this is an issue that is detailed in Islam. This is on one condition, that he is responsible for the payment and taking care of the physical being of the family. If this is not happening, then he is not responsible, he doesn't get that right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. What do you think about what you've heard?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I get it but about the other point that women have to struggle and to ask for their rights. I have read that they struggle until we reach a point that where men try to struggle to ask for their rights, OK, but men try to do want, the best for them, and women try to do their best of them, and that all will serve the community, the society, but about struggling and ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just ask you a question, whether you think women should have fully equality, what do you think on this issue ?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I don't want to answer.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, I hope you're going to answer it when we vote in a little while. We have time for one more question. There's a lady up there who's waited a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I think women don't want to be like men, but it's just the fact that they were suppressed, that they just want to prove themselves that they could be at the stage like men. So I just want to ask one thing. I still don't understand why the team against the motion is against the motion.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
It's about this idea of women having choices, voting, participation in political office and so on and so forth, we agree with all of that, and I feel that they should have the same, or I feel that they should have the same opportunities as men in this regard. But what I'm saying here is that setting a standard, setting man as the standard by which the woman has to measure up, meaning that she has no worth unless she meets the standard of the man ...
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But we're not ...
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
... devalues, devalues, then you're in agreement with me.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, no, I'm not. See, the thing is, don't misunderstand me. What I'm saying is ...
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
What I don't want is the devaluation of womanhood.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'm sorry. What I'm saying is, no-one's said that women find men as their idol. It's just because ...
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
I didn't say that either.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, because that's what you, they want to be at that stage where men are. Don't you think that because of what they've been facing, this is what they just want to prove?
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Can't they go beyond the stage where men are?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Of course they can.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Men are not very far along, and I think if they can go beyond that ...
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Why against? So why are you against? I don't get it.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Well, it seems as though we're in agreement then.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
How are we in agreement? You're saying that, you know, they couldn't do more. Of course they could do more, you know.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
So why should they be fully equal, only the same, only the same as man. This is what equality means.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Because the world needs ...
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Linguistically that's what it needs.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This makes it look like, you know, men are sort of the top.
SHEIKH JIHAD BROWN
Maybe the media makes it look that way, and we have a situation right now in the Middle East and we have had for a long time, and I hope that we won't have in the very near future where women are not given the rights that they should be having. Women are not treated with the respect that they deserve to be treated with. I'm saying that the solution is not this Western brand or concept called equality. The solution is fairness in legislation. The solution is that we start educating young men in the homes how they should see women in the society. What I am rejecting here is that we follow in these terms and say if the West there's equality, we say equality. What does that mean?

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK. We have come now to the point where you will have to decide. We've come to the moment in the proceeding where I would ask you to take your voting machines and remind you of the motion, 'This House believes that Arab women should have full equality with men.' If you want to vote for the motion, please press the first button. If you want to vote against it, will you press the second one, and will you do it now and just once please, because you don't need to go on pressing the buttons. We should have the results very shortly. Right, the results should be coming up any second now on the screen. There we have it, for the motion, 85.8%, 85.8% for the motion, 14.2 against. The motion has been resoundingly carried. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you to our speakers, thank you to you, the audience. We'll be back again in September. Thank you very much for coming, have a safe journey home. Thank you.