Doha Debate Special Event: Shimon Peres

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to this Doha Debates Special Event sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. It's rare to see a senior Israeli politician in a Gulf State, rarer still to find one who has agreed to answer questions that he hasn't seen in advance from an Arab audience, in this case a group of students studying here in the State of Qatar and drawn from across the region. Our guest has been at the centre of Israeli politics for more than half a century, and has held public appointments for almost 60 years. He's been Prime Minister twice, in the 80's and 90's, and last year he was appointed Deputy Prime Minister. Shimon Peres, welcome and thank you very much for making the trip.
SHIMON PERES
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
As a seasoned politician, you know that politicians come to 'sell'. Have you come here to Qatar to 'sell' anything new this time?
SHIMON PERES
To sell and buy. I came to say and to listen, because I do believe there is nothing better than to have a real dialogue.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But what have you brought us that's new? Have you brought any new proposals, have you brought a new willingness to sit and engage for peace?
SHIMON PERES
I am not sure, but I believe I brought some clarifications, because when you live just on the media, you maybe don't get the detailed picture. For example I do believe that the chances for peace are far better than it appears in the headlines, and today with the Emir (Mr Peres met the Emir of Qatar earlier in the day), we had a good chance to go over all the details, and I told him that we are not far away from making peace.
TIM SEBASTIAN
How is it that you say you're not far away from peace when for instance you are expanding settlements in direct contravention of your commitments to the road map?
SHIMON PERES
I think Olmert has decided to stop any building, any building of further settlements. I think it's stopped.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It has stopped? It announced a new one in December.
SHIMON PERES
No, it has stopped, the new one in December they have announced was postponed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Maskiot (a settlement in the West Bank) has been postponed.
SHIMON PERES
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And the expansion to Maleh Adumim, your biggest settlement?
SHIMON PERES
It's very much alive in the papers but not in reality.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's not going to happen?
SHIMON PERES
I don't know about ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're going to give a commitment that that expansion is not going to happen?
SHIMON PERES
No, no, no, I can't give such commitment because it became part of Jerusalem, but in fact nothing is moving.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I wonder if your government then is speaking with one voice, because the Prime Minister's spokeswoman, Miri Eisin, says that 'The Israeli government is committed to the continuing growth, natural growth of the settlements in the perimeter around Jerusalem.' You're now saying something completely different.
SHIMON PERES
No, I think that's the commitment of the government, but there is also the pragmatic side and there is timing, and I do hope that we should be able to make some progress before many changes will occur. It's true that this is the policy of the State of Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And it's a policy which directly contravenes your commitments under the road map, whereby the government of Israel freezes all settlement activity including natural growth.
SHIMON PERES
We don't consider Jerusalem as part of the settlement activities. Jerusalem was taken as part of the Israeli sovereignty out of Jerusalem, because there are many Arab suburbs which are not included in it, and I know that somebody may in the future raise the problem, but right now we are pragmatically trying to lower the flames and restrain our activities.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you can't give me an assurance, you can't give our audience an assurance that the settlements are not going to expand further?
SHIMON PERES
Well, the settlements in the West Bank I can give you an assurance. Jerusalem is a different situation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You know that the European position is unchanged as it has been for many years. Your settlements are illegal, full stop, and an obstacle to peace. You'd have a better chance of peace if you got rid of all your settlements, wouldn't you?
SHIMON PERES
Well, I wish we would have an agreement a long time ago so we wouldn't have the problem, but as long as this remains a controversial issue, it won't be decided by one side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So are you just telling me that the settlements are a bargaining chip? You keep them as a bargaining chip?
SHIMON PERES
No, I didn't say it. I said there will be full stop about the settlements on the West Bank. I can't change the opinion or make the promise on Jerusalem.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And there are 20 settlements, illegal outposts that you have promised to get rid of since 2001 and you've got rid of one only under a court order. Why so slow, why the hold-up?
SHIMON PERES
Basically because there was an intifada, because there were attacks. Look, you look at it from one point of view. The Israelis look at it differently.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's how the Palestinians look at it, isn't it? The most visible symbol of occupation is the settlements.
SHIMON PERES
Not so. You forgot one thing. Israel has dismantled settlements in Gaza completely, by force.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And yet you retain control over entry, exit to Gaza, the registry of the population. You have a stranglehold over Gaza still.
SHIMON PERES
No, I am sorry. The army left completely Gaza.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's been back quite a few times, hasn't it?
SHIMON PERES
Because they are firing the missiles against us, to stop it. We handed over Gaza completely to the Palestinian hands.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not the entry or exit, not an airport, nothing.
SHIMON PERES
No, no, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The supplies that come in or the electricity that the people use, you control all that.
SHIMON PERES
No, no. The passage between us, between Gaza and Egypt is very much controlled by the European Union and by the Egyptians themselves, and for the first time - this is a new story. Israel used force to dismantle our own settlements, so while we're talking about settlements, we have shown an example what we can and have in mind to do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You dismantled them because as Ehud Olmert told me a couple of years ago, they were both wrong and untenable. It wasn't an act of kindness to the Palestinians. They were wrong and untenable, his words.
SHIMON PERES
Well, if they were wrong means that somebody else was right, and we left Gaza completely, so when you talk about settlement, look on the other side of the story, which was never precedented. It's unprecedented. Before we have peace, before we had an agreement, out of our own free will, at a very high cost in financial terms and goodwill, the government used the Army to dismantle settlements. Why, why?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mr. Peres, it was a high cost to hold on to those settlements, wasn't it?
SHIMON PERES
Not as much as to dismantle them, the compensation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Long-term?
SHIMON PERES
I don't know what is long-term. Money is not a matter of long-term. We have a budget and it cost a lot of money, but don't under-estimate this act of goodwill, and we are very much disappointed, I must say. We left Gaza, militarily, we dismantled the settlements and we can't understand why do they continue to fire missiles against civilian life nearby, what for? And that is the difficulty when you talk about settlement, people are saying, "Why should we dismantle? Look what they're doing."
TIM SEBASTIAN
You ignore the huge numbers of check points that you keep in the West Bank, the barriers, the separation barrier which separates Palestinians from their land, and you ask why they're unhappy with Israel?
SHIMON PERES
Well, 80 check points we are dismantling too right now, and then again the problem as you see yesterday in Eilat for the first time. Again, there arrived a suicidical bomber. Look, we have to defend ourselves too. It is not a contest of duty. Every day we have close to 70 warnings about suicidical bombers trying to cross the line.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And yet according to your own Human Rights Organisation - B'Tselem - Israeli forces killed 660 Palestinians last year compared to the Palestinians who killed 17 Israeli civilians and 6 soldiers. Who is the threat to whom? Who is the bigger threat to whom, Mr. Peres?
SHIMON PERES
That is one year after we built the wall. Before there were hundreds and hundreds of Israelis that were killed, so we took defensive measures.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's disproportionate beyond belief, isn't it?
SHIMON PERES
I agree but the disproportion begins with ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And it doesn't worry you, it doesn't concern you?
SHIMON PERES
It does worry me, but the disproportion begins with firing missiles against civilian life for no reason. It's true, they don't hit precisely.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mr. Peres, 141 children, Palestinian children, killed last year by your forces.
SHIMON PERES
I regret it very much. For me every child is a child, whether Palestinian or Israeli.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You regret it, but what do you really feel about it?
SHIMON PERES
I feel poorly, I feel badly. I would like to do everything I can to stop it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you haven't over the years. You haven't managed to stop it.
SHIMON PERES
Excuse me, let them stop firing, no child will be killed. Israel never initiated, Israel always just reacted. The minute they will stop, there won't be a single victim. You know, we have the Peres Centre for Peace. We are curing Palestinian children that were wounded. Look, we don't look upon the Palestinians as our eternal enemies, you must understand, and we wish they believe in peace like all of us, in peace, in freedom, not wars.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And yet you will restrict the supplies to them when you feel like it in order to put pressure on the population as a whole. As one of the chief advisers to Mr. Olmert said last year, Dov Weisglass, 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet but not to make them die of hunger.' How chilling is that?
SHIMON PERES
I think this is an unfortunate expression.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you repudiate that?
SHIMON PERES
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Because the Prime Minister hasn't, has he?
SHIMON PERES
No, the Prime Minister never said it either, I am sure about it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dov Weisglass said it.
SHIMON PERES
Dov Weisglass was an adviser.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes.
SHIMON PERES
And I think he ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And close to the seat of power in Israel.
SHIMON PERES
You know, expressions are a matter of luck. Some of them are unlucky.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you worry about the expression and not the reality?
SHIMON PERES
No, because the reality is that we really opened all the passages and do you know, they put bombs in the passages. You know, we tried to save the greenhouses, to rebuild them, they destroyed them. There is lack of reason in it. The minute again they will stop, no single child will be touched or hurt and surely not killed, neither children nor women nor men.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But why is it that President Jimmy Carter, former President Carter talks about 'abominable persecution and oppression in the occupied territories'? Your old friend, you negotiated with him, you've known him for years.
SHIMON PERES
Yes, yes. Which shows that even Jimmy Carter can be wrong. He doesn't begin to understand, in my judgment, what are our intentions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is he anti-Semitic because he said those things?
SHIMON PERES
I don't want to accuse him ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but a lot of people have accused him of that.
SHIMON PERES
I think it was a very unfortunate expression and he himself regretted it later on.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm giving you an opportunity to support your old negotiating partner here, you're not taking it.
SHIMON PERES
Well, he negotiated and he did a good job in the negotiations.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You didn't find him anti-Semitic, did you?
SHIMON PERES
I wouldn't be so quick to accuse anybody, but I think in the book, particularly the title, he again he lost control over this expression.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Its title is 'Palestine: Peace not Apartheid'.
SHIMON PERES
So he said that was a mistake on his part and to that I agree, that he was mistaken.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mr. Peres, are you going to run for President?
SHIMON PERES
To run? I'm not sure.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you haven't ruled it out?
SHIMON PERES
I think it's too early to do it. We still have a President, under trial, and I don't think I have to be in a hurry to announce anything like that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You are going to do it, aren't you? Everybody assumes you are going to do it. You've lost none of your hunger for politics and power.
SHIMON PERES
If that is the case, so why do you ask me?
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, I want to hear it from your lips, not from mine.
SHIMON PERES
For me, I'm not in a mood to do it right now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You could just share this secret with us tonight.
SHIMON PERES
No, I won't answer you. Seriously, I am busy with several projects that I really like to do, and all my life I thought that what to do is more important than what to be, so I'm not in a hurry to give up doing or being, and I know there is an expectation in the country that I should do it. I mean, the support is over 80%, but still I wouldn't like to start to run for a post and giving up the job that I'm doing right now for the country.

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Well, I think you're going to get even tougher questions from our audience. Let me now throw the floor open to them and our first question is from Nadia Merchant.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Hello, good evening. You have neither forgiven nor forgotten those who commit crimes against your people. How do you expect the Palestinians to forgive and forget the crimes you've committed and continue to commit against them?
SHIMON PERES
I am not making any account with the past. My eyes are set for the future. I think what happened, happened, and I think we don't have to return all the time to history for the simple reason that we cannot correct history. We can correct the future. So to forgive and forget is a good advice for everybody, if you can really provide for your children and our children a better future, and that is our preference.
TIM SEBASTIAN
(to the questioner) Would you like to come back?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes. So how do you expect to bring peace? I mean, it goes on and on, it's never going to stop in that sense. I mean, there has to be a stop to all this.
SHIMON PERES
It's a good question and I shall give you a real answer. You know, there were four wars between us and Egypt. Many Egyptians were killed, many Israelis were killed, and one day, in spite of all the victims, of all the hatred, of all the misunderstanding, we made peace. The same goes with the Jordanians. Again, we were at war, we attacked each other, there were many victims, some of them innocent, and in spite of it we make peace. The same will happen with the Palestinians. If you have had once a war, it doesn't mean that you have to repeat it eternally in the future. You have to bring a stop, and you cannot accuse one generation for the wrong-doing of the previous generation, because we want the whole world and each of us to become better, and not to repeat the same wrongs and the same mistakes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Question please from Zeyad Abdul Kader.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. You personally have been involved in many wars and have fought for over 60 years. Isn't it a fact that Israel's policy of military deterrence has been a failure?
SHIMON PERES
No. You know, I have to divide the history in the past into two parts. The first 30 years were years of war and bellicose and laziness, if you want. Israel was attacked five times. Israel was outgunned, outmanned, outnumbered, if you want, and we had to defend ourselves. The last 30 years there was an introduction of peace and the whole policy has changed. We went over from an emphasis on the military to an emphasis of politics, and we have made four attempts to make peace. Twice we succeeded, twice we failed. We succeeded with Egypt and Jordan, we failed with the Palestinians and the Lebanese, and you ask why? The answer is obvious. Egypt and Jordan have a government, have an army, have a policy. Alas, the Palestinians and the Lebanese have many armies and no army, have many governments and no government. Their division is our tragedy, not only theirs. When you see the Palestinians being united under one flag, one government, one army, one policy and then I show you, peace will come rather promptly. The nature of the conflict today stems more from the division within the Palestinians than the differences between us and the Palestinians, and really I pray that the Palestinians see the light, and we should do with them what we did with the Jordanians and the Egyptians, the same.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mr. Peres, how can you say you've moved from a military strategy to a political one? There are no substantive talks taking place with the Palestinians whatsoever, and your troops are almost daily in action, and as for the military strategy, as you pointed out, there was a suicide bombing the other day. Your dependence on your military has brought you not one guaranteed day of peace in 30 years, has it? Not one guaranteed day, so something is badly wrong with this strategy, if you're spending all these billions on weapons and you're getting no security for it. Time to think again?
SHIMON PERES
Well, for peace you need two sides and our side is ready, as it was with the Jordanians and with the Palestinians. Now let me say ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You kept saying you had no partner for peace. You're still saying you won't talk to Hamas.
SHIMON PERES
No, I didn't say it. We are talking with Abu Mazen, the President of the Palestinian Authority. A couple of weeks ago, our Prime Minister met with him in a very fair atmosphere and he also responded to some of the requests. Now, take the issue in Eilat. For 60 years there wasn't an exchange of fire between Eilat and Aqaba. There wasn't a single event of violence, and some bomber came from Gaza. You can't say it was all the Palestinian people who came - they didn't - but some came from an extreme group in Gaza and tried to violate...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And for that we see increasing numbers of incursions by your forces back into Palestinian territory.
SHIMON PERES
We are not doing any incursions, we do less incursions for example ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We had one in Ramallah a few weeks ago, we watched on television as the bulldozers went into Ramallah - your bulldozers.
SHIMON PERES
Yes, because we have had early warning about an attempt of a group of suicide bombers to come to Israel and we tried to prevent it. I think we don't use more force than the Egyptians do in Sinai to defend their own tourism. You have to stop it, you are left without a choice. You know, it's not that I compare it, but Gandhi once said, 'When a cat is chasing a mouse, there is no sense for the mouse to declare a ceasefire.' And we don't want to be a mouse, for the sake of the cat.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take a question, if we may please, from Arwa El Bagge.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Your country is said to be holding 9,000 Arab prisoners including women and children. When Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers, you bombed Lebanon for 30 days and killed 1,200 Lebanese, most of whom are civilians. What do you think you achieved from such a devastation?
SHIMON PERES
Well, it's a little bit more complicated than you describe. The Lebanese penetrated the land of Israel - we don't know what for, because we left Lebanon completely in accordance with the United Nations. The Secretary General of the United Nations has praised us for doing it. And after we tried to release, to save the life of the soldiers, the Hezbollah started to bomb and sent rockets that hit Haifa which is simply far away from Lebanon. What for, can you explain to me? Whom is Hezbollah serving but the Iranians? We didn't touch Lebanon. We left their land, didn't touch the water. We implemented completely the United Nations' resolution. You know, most of the Lebanese don't understand what Hezbollah is doing. Why are they fighting? What for?
TIM SEBASTIAN
The question was, what do you think you achieved?
SHIMON PERES
We didn't invite it, we didn't invite the bombing of Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, but what do you think you achieved?
SHIMON PERES
We achieved our defence, we forced them to stop it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But by devastating parts of Southern Lebanon?
SHIMON PERES
Then Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah said if he's known that we should react so severely, he wouldn't do it, so we achieved a good lesson for Hezbollah. Don't do it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What about a million people shoved out of their homes on the road, what does that achieve?
SHIMON PERES
They didn't have to go, they didn't have to, why?
TIM SEBASTIAN
They were told to leave their homes by the leaflets that were dropped by your planes.
SHIMON PERES
They sent 300 missiles every day against civilian life in Israel. In the hot summer, invalids and elderly people were in shelters and they bombed and bombed and bombed. What do you expect us to do?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You saw the pictures of Beirut, some of the suburbs in Beirut.
SHIMON PERES
Since you know about television more than I do, may I say that we bombed the headquarters of Hezbollah in Beirut and nobody was killed. How did it happen?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You bombed Qana and plenty of people were killed.
SHIMON PERES
No, Qana is a different story. Again, please, you must separate different stories. In Qana the story, and you know, we were justified in that case.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Justified in killing civilians in a block of flats?
SHIMON PERES
No, no, by no chance nobody will justify the killing of civilians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I wonder if we have anybody from Lebanon in the audience who would like to respond. You, sir, you raised your hand. Would you like to respond to what Mr. Peres has said?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Over the summer I was calling my family since the first day every day to find out that they're sitting at home not doing anything while planes bombard Southern Lebanon, and now I don't feel safe enough to go back.
SHIMON PERES
The Lebanese are not our enemy, we don't have any claim about Lebanon, we don't want the Lebanese land, we don't want the Lebanese water, we don't want to mix in the Lebanese politics. We want to see a united, integrated Lebanon, a peaceful Lebanon. For years and years our relations were superb, as you know, and then a foreign body came in, you have an army within an army, a state within a state - the Hezbollah. They are getting orders from the outside, not from the Lebanese. Today they are trying to bring down the legitimate government of Lebanon, Mr. Siniora.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They dispute that, they dispute that they're getting their orders from outside.
SHIMON PERES
Are you surprised that that is the truth?
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it's your word against their word?
SHIMON PERES
No. What does Hezbollah want? They have to explain to somebody, why are they shooting, why are they firing, why are they provoking? Let Lebanon live in peace.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take a question from the gentleman over there. You had your hand up, sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Sir, you claim not wanting any of the Lebanese territory or not wanting any of the Lebanese water. You claim to have had good relationships with the Lebanese state but everybody in Lebanon asks where does the Litani water go, the river in the south.
SHIMON PERES
Where does it go?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Plenty of people know that it goes to Israeli companies.
SHIMON PERES
No, sir, I regret..
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I was living in Lebanon in the war, I saw ...
SHIMON PERES
You have been in Lebanon and if you watch the Litani river, it goes to the sea. It doesn't go to any Israeli company, and I suggest you have another look at the Litani, and you'll see, like all rivers, it flows to the sea.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I know it flows to the sea, but some Israeli companies have ...
SHIMON PERES
There is no Israeli company there. I am sorry. Look, the problem is, maybe you read too much papers and you look too little to the realities, but Israel doesn't take a drop of water from the Litani, nothing whatsoever, completely.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let's take a question from the gentleman in the front row. We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
What about the airport, who bombed the airport? Who bombed all the tunnels, who bombed all the overpasses just to cut water and electricity from Beirut? Don't tell me that's not done by Israel, because nobody was bombing except Israel.
SHIMON PERES
Again, I don't think in the last war we cut any electricity. We closed the airport because weapons were smuggled to Hezbollah through the airport, and we asked to stop it, and today again, we asked the Syrians, not only us, the United Nations, to stop supplying the missiles to the Hezbollah. There is a legitimate government in Lebanon that we respect. You know what happened in the last war. The United Nations demanded that Hezbollah will permit the Lebanese Army to be deployed along the border with Israel. They refused. Only in the last war they were forced to leave the border and hand it over to the legitimate army of Lebanon, supported by international or United Nations army. Why did you permit the Hezbollah to go to the border, provoke day and night, all the time, not enabling the Lebanese and us to make peace, what for? You have to answer too.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But what happened when the United Nations also asked Israel to withdraw?
SHIMON PERES
We did withdraw.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No, you didn't, you didn't, right away when United Nations requested to withdraw, you waited three days until you actually did it.
SHIMON PERES
We waited three days until the United Nations force will arrive, and until the Lebanese army will be deployed. Clearly we didn't want to leave as long as the Hezbollah remained. Once the Hezbollah left, the Lebanese army arrived, the United Nations arrived, we left.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've got something else you wanted to add?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Well, actually I just wanted to point out one thing about the war itself. Most politicians and authorities in Israel mentioned that the war was a loss for Israel, and Israel lost the war. What do you say about that?
SHIMON PERES
You know, every war is a loss. I prefer peace.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No, I'm talking about just Israel.
SHIMON PERES
Well, it depends how you judge it. For example, if the Hezbollah left the border, I don't think it's a loss. If fire stopped, I don't think it's a loss, and even if Nasrallah says that he didn't expect such a reaction, so he learned a lesson, and by the way, he gave some very nice compliments to Israel which I appreciate. He says, 'Look, a country, maybe they have gotten some mistakes but they have the guts to correct it publicly.' We don't say that Israel never committed a mistake, we do, we correct it, but let me say one thing to all of you. You must understand deeply and profoundly that Israel is in search of peace. We don't look for territories, we don't want to govern any other nation, we would like to see our neighbours enjoying life, enjoying peace, and we are convinced the better they will have it, the better neighbours we shall have. This is the basic assumption, as we gave back all the land, all the water, all the oil to Egypt, as we gave back all the land, all the water to Jordan, what does it show? You must understand it, otherwise you will live on rumours and propaganda, and I am speaking on behalf of my people. We try and convince one peace with you as you are, as you have to make peace with us as we are.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you don't want to put the Palestinians on a diet, as Dov Weisglass suggested, the Prime Minister's adviser?
SHIMON PERES
No, no, we don't suggest that everybody will become fat unduly, but a diet is not a policy, it's for the Palestinians to decide which way to go, what way to have. The only thing we dem and is the end of belligerency, the end of missiles, the end of firing. That's it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You demand that they live up to their promises under the road map and they demand that you live up to yours.
SHIMON PERES
I agree, we shall do it, as we did.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You haven't been in a hurry, Mr. Peres. You haven't been in a hurry to do that.
SHIMON PERES
We didn't have a choice, we were attacked seven times, six times, you know. Why?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've got to close settlements down immediately.
SHIMON PERES
We were attacked before there were settlements, don't forget it. We were attacked, most of the attacks were before Israel has had a single settlement in the West Bank. The United Nations decided about the creation of two states, as they called it an Arab state and a Jewish state. We accepted. Instead, before we have had a state, before we have had settlement, seven armies attacked us, and then time and again without having settlements. You must also be correct with history.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take a question from Hiba Sheikh please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
If you were a young Palestinian living in the West Bank, how do you think you would react to the death of close relatives caused by Israeli collective punishment or as innocent bystanders as a target of assassination?
SHIMON PERES
I will answer you in plain language. If I were a young Palestinian, I would behave like Abu Mazen. That's it.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
What if you witnessed punishment all around you, if you were a victim of targeted assassinations?
SHIMON PERES
I'm sorry, what sort of punishment are you talking?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
The random bombings that happen, sometimes civilians, a lot of civilians ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
The bulldozing of houses, for instance.
SHIMON PERES
Which houses?
TIM SEBASTIAN
The houses of relatives of those who in your eyes have committed some crime or other.
SHIMON PERES
I think it's better to punish by referring to a house than to referring to a person. You know, Israel doesn't have a capital punishment. There are people that assassinated tens of innocent victims. Nobody was executed by Israel at time of a war, at time of provocation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You have targeted assassinations instead.
SHIMON PERES
We had targeted assassination only when we knew that somebody ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Without the benefit of courts and a trial.
SHIMON PERES
Because, well, they went on their way to attack Israel. Did they go to the court first? If you've got the information about a ticking bomb that somebody ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But it's no great achievement not to have capital punishment when you have targeted assassinations.
SHIMON PERES
I'm sorry, if you know that somebody is going with a bomb to destroy a restaurant full of people and children, what would you do, wait until he will do it and then you'll put him to court?
TIM SEBASTIAN
And the innocent bystanders who die when these targeted assassinations are carried out?
SHIMON PERES
I'm sorry, I regret it very much. I wish we wouldn't have to do it, but what is the choice? If you know that somebody is carrying a bomb and going to kill in the heart of the people, you know ..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Many countries including the European Union have called on you to stop the targeted assassinations.
SHIMON PERES
The European Union is there and of the opinion we can stop the war. I was Prime Minister after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, and then we gave back to the Palestinians 430 villages, six cities. They asked to have free elections, I agreed. They asked to have free elections in Jerusalem, I agreed, and then a month, two months, it didn't last, and they started a wave of attacks. Why, why? You know, Arafat later on cried, but you must understand, he was talking about it a little bit theoretically, excuse me. For me as a Prime Minister, that was criticised by his own people for going so far, waking up in the morning and go to a square in Jerusalem and see tens of people lying on the land, full of blood, and the whole Israeli crowds shouts at me, 'Traitor, look what you did to us!' One time, then it stopped.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, you didn't go into politics to become popular, did you?
SHIMON PERES
I didn't go to the politics to become popular, I did go to the politics to make peace for the sake of the two sides. I know that you have to make peace with the two sides, and I am very attentive to the Palestinian side as well.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take a question from the lady in the second row there please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Ten years ago, if you remember, you paid a visit to Doha to attend the MENA Conference. According to someone there, you said that peace will be forthcoming within one year in the Middle East, and that has obviously not occurred, so does your optimism cause you to ignore the reality of how difficult such a task is? It has been ten years and none of this has been achieved.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You promised peace when you were in Doha, you said it could be achieved within a year. That hasn't happened. Were you over-optimistic? Are you ignoring the difficulties that lie in the way of peace?
SHIMON PERES
No, I think we made a great deal of progress in the direction of peace. Look, more than half of the Palestinians headed by Fatah actually were in full agreement with them. What happened is that there arrived another unfortunately another group, the Hamas, and they are holding back, but I think ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hamas have moved, Hamas have moved, haven't they?
SHIMON PERES
Moved?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hamas have said the problem is not that Israel is a reality, it's the problem that there isn't a Palestinian state. Khaled Mesha'al said that ...
SHIMON PERES
No, no, sir, you must be precise.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... a few weeks ago.
SHIMON PERES
No, you must be precise in your quotation. He said that the fact that Israel is in the territories, that is a fact. He didn't recognise Israel. He said he won't recognise Israel, he said he will not respect the signed agreement between the Palestinians and us. He says even if we should go back to the '67 frontiers, he won't make peace. He refused to condemn violence, if Hamas ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
He said it was a matter of fact that there will remain a state called Israel. The problem is not that there is an entity called Israel, the problem is that the Palestinian state is non-existent, that was his interview with the Reuters News Agency.
SHIMON PERES
Well, I read it differently, I don't know what the translator did, but I read that the fact is that Israel is in the territories. He didn't recognise and he refused to recognise Israel as a state. Would they recognise, would they respect the agreements, we would negotiate with them. We have nothing against persons, we have nothing against movements.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You can't always negotiate on your own terms. You told me a long time ago, "Don't try to win everything".
SHIMON PERES
Yes, we are not trying, because we went a long way to meet the request of the Fatah people, the Prime Minister of Israel announced that at the opening position of negotiations, Israel will leave 99% of the West Bank, Gaza we're 100% out, and there will be a contiguity, the country will not be sliced in pieces, and for the rest or part of the rest, there will be a swap of land. Isn't that a fair proposal to begin a negotiation? Is that an insistence of 100% winning, or is that an attempt to demonstrate compromise?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's take a question please from Mohammed Tartir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you, sir. Mr. Peres, my family's home used to be in the area that is now Ben Gurion Airport. The right of return is physically not possible for us. Israel has consistently rejected the right of return for Palestinians. Would you now agree - at a minimum - for international arbitration to decide compensation for Palestinians who lost their land?
SHIMON PERES
Israel will willingly participate in any attempt to compensate for any loss of former land. We don't need any arbitration. We don't mind that this will be done by international body, actually we agreed, and I think there was a joint committee appointed headed by Canada to see for ways and means of compensation, and I represented Israel in that committee. We don't want anybody to suffer unduly, unnecessary. You must understand, ladies and gentlemen, I don't look upon you as enemies, please don't look up on me as an enemy. I look up on you as people that will go to make peace and I'm a grown-up man who tried to continue the process of peace. Don't get it wrong. The basic will, the basic desire and destiny is to live in peace. You know, today democracy is not just the right of every person to be equal, but the equal right of every person to be different. Even if we are different people, we have to live in peace. Nothing will be achieved by war but blood and suffering and waste of time and waste of youth, and that is my basic approach. I didn't come here to win a debate. I really came here to let you know, to understand that this is the basic desire of the Israelis, and we have shown it whenever we could.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to come back on that?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you very much for the answer, but as you may know, many peace talks or negotiations collapsed because there was no agreement on the right to return, and we're not getting anywhere forward if there's no agreement on this right for Palestinians. How do you comment on that?
SHIMON PERES
You know, I don't want all the time to correct you. Look, the West Bank was under Jordanian rule. They didn't give it to the Palestinians. Gaza was under the Egyptian rule, they didn't give it to the Palestinians. Israel gave it to the Palestinians. We left Gaza completely, and we are ready to hand over most if not all of the West Bank, so that's the truth, and we're ready to sit and listen and look for creative solutions. We don't give any orders, we even don't tell the Palestinians, 'Take it or leave it,' nothing whatsoever. We say,, 'Gentlemen, let's sit around the table, we left Gaza as we left Egypt, as we left Jordan. Let's see what can be done wisely and jointly and peacefully.' And the West Bank, what's wrong? The problem is that Fatah agrees so we can sit with them, and Hamas does not agree to negotiate. That's the only problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady in the front row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Mr. Peres, you mentioned that Israel should defend themselves, so must the Palestinians and it seems the only way to do so is through suicide - you call them suicide bombers who go and blow up themselves - since all the agreements, they don't work, and Israel is still continuing the violence, and we think that those suicide bombers are brave. So do you think, who shall we blame in this, the Israeli Army, the Palestinians themselves or both?
SHIMON PERES
I don't blame anybody, I blame people that make out of themselves a bomb, and you know, you say 'we', I don't know who are the 'we'. I read a declaration by a very distinguished Sheikh here in Qatar and he turns to the Arabs and says, 'Stop it, it's against the Koran. You don't have the right to commit suicide, kill yourself and kill other people.' And I agree with him fully. It's not a matter of nationality. It's a matter of means which are permitted and not permitted, by law and man, and I don't suggest that in the case, one case, you know, a lady that has seven children came to commit suicide, why? We suggest let's sit around the table. You will achieve nothing by suicide but more and more blood and suffering. So it has nothing to do, there are many Palestinians who don't like it. There are many Qataris that don't like it, there are many other people didn't like it. It's not the way of life.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to the questioner)
You wanted to come back on ...
AUDIENCE Q (F)
What about the Israeli attacks? You think there are more victims because of suicide bombers than because of Israeli attacks? I don't think so.
SHIMON PERES
No, we say there is no need of violence. You know, peace was achieved without violence. I think it's better to sit around the table and negotiate.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
We've sat for many times and many years, Camp David for instance, the road map.
SHIMON PERES
We sit and we achieved. We achieved peace with Egypt, the largest Arab country, we achieved peace with Jordan and we made progress with the Palestinians. Israel is the first country to recognise a Palestinian personality, to recognise the right of the Palestinians of their land, and we are ready to continue to negotiate. The bombs are holding the negotiations, not furthering it, and believe me, better go the way of Gandhi, better go the way of Nelson Mandela, you and us, and I'm telling you time and again, that by peaceful negotiations you will achieve quicker and better whatever you have in mind, and I don't suggest to use killing instead of arguments and dialogue. It's a mistake, and I don't say all the Palestinians are wrong and all the Israelis are right. I say that whoever uses forces is mistaken, because the greatest force in life is goodwill, and the greatest force in life is peace. Don't kill, don't be killed, it's not necessary.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the fourth row, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Mr. Peres, you claim that Israel was the first country to recognise the Palestinians' right to the land. Now putting the past aside and concentrating only on the West Bank and Gaza, what kind of recognition is this that comes with constant incursions, the expansion of settlements, the maintaining of settlements on land stolen from Palestinians, and also if we extend this further, what kind of respect is this for other people's sovereignty on the land, when Israel continues to occupy the Golan Heights, which were taken from Syria, and the Shebaa Farms, which I agree are contested by both countries but they are not Israeli land.
SHIMON PERES
You know, you force me again to argue but I don't have a choice so I shall argue. What do you mean, we occupied the Golan Heights? Syria attacked us for no reason, without provocation, in the holiest days of our life, Syria together with Egypt, they had a surprise attack against Israel. Israel went to fight, we won the Golan Heights in the war and we won the Sinai Peninsula, which is by far larger, 40 times the size of the Golan Heights. Sadat came and said, 'Let's negotiate.' He called upon Assad and says, 'Come with me and we shall negotiate together.' Assad refused. Sadat went to negotiating, got back the whole of Sinai, and I'm telling you without hesitation, would Assad go with Sadat, he would have the Golan Heights as well. He refused to negotiate. He attacked, he lost, he refused to negotiate, so what do you expect will happen?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But what about Palestinian land, Mr. Peres? My question was also directed at the West Bank and the amount of settlements constructed specially around East Jerusalem. You claim you recognise the right of Palestinians to this land, yet you maintain and expand theses settlements.
SHIMON PERES
Well, Palestinian land in Gaza we gave back completely. We withdrew and we dismantled our settlements.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
While expanding settlements in the West Bank.
SHIMON PERES
The West Bank, we say we are ready to sit down and in an opening position, we suggested practically an inch for an inch, part of it by withdrawing and part of it by trading land for land. Jerusalem is not necessarily Palestinian land. Jerusalem in our judgment is Israeli land, so we have a controversy there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But President Bush told you in April 2002, he said, 'The occupation must end,' he said, 'The occupation must end through withdrawal to secure and recognise boundaries consistent with UN Resolutions 242 and 338.' You've ignored that demand ...
SHIMON PERES
No, I agree to it but ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... for the last four or five years ...
SHIMON PERES
I am sorry.
TIM SEBASTIAN
... since he made it.
SHIMON PERES
What does 242 and 338 say? That we have to agree to secure borders, to agree on secure borders.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You are holding land acquired through invasion.
SHIMON PERES
No, we are ready to sit down. We need also security in Israeli land. You can't say give back the land and you won't have security, it doesn't make sense. Look, there are two sides to the story, and Israel said we are ready to give back land for security, and we gave back land, and we didn't get completely the security, but now what do you want us to do, to give back land and say, 'Now attack us again.' Don't we have the right to insist to have security, according to 242 and 338? By the way, the language of 242 and 338 doesn't say that Israel has to withdraw from all the territories. It says Israel has to withdraw from territories, to secure borders, and you cannot make it differently.
TIM SEBASTIAN
To come back to a point earlier, if you don't give up land which is regarded as illegally held, how are you going to get ...
SHIMON PERES
That's legally...if you're being attacked, the attack is illegal, and if the Arabs or the Palestinians would accept the United Nations resolution, we wouldn't have a single problem whatsoever, because Israel accepted the borders of the United Nations. Instead, Israel was attacked and now again we have the right of self-defence in accordance with the United Nations charter, don't take it away from us.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We have another question which relates to that, which is about the separation barrier, from Thomas Kancewick please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Many in the Arab world see the building of the wall by Israel as a major obstacle in the peace process. What can you say to this belief?
SHIMON PERES
I think the wall is temporary, and it was done because we were forced to do it. There was an ongoing stream of attacks by suicide bombers against Israel. Since we build the wall, it was cut by 80%. I mean, it obviously was a defensive act, and then also when we built the wall, we tried to follow the Green Line, which means the frontier between us and the Palestinians. Who needs walls? We shall build bridges. You know, walls are a result of belligerency and bridges are a result of agreements, and it's not the first time, you know, in the Middle East since Jericho, we have dismantled many walls, from Jericho to Berlin. Walls are not a matter of the future. Bridges belong to the future, not walls, but if you are forced to defend yourself, you do it.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
There was also an advisory opinion given by the International Court of Justice about the wall, wasn't there, which declared its construction inside the occupied territories as 'a violation of international humanitarian law.' You ignored that.
SHIMON PERES
I am not aware of such a judgment, I'm not aware that we appeared before the court. I am not aware that we were called to appear. How can a court ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It gave an advisory opinion.
SHIMON PERES
Advisory is a different thing. We can have another advisory group that will give you a different opinion. You can select advisors in accordance to your preferences, but it wasn't a court with judges, with witnesses. We weren't called at all to appear there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why do you need to build it on Palestinian land? Why did you not build it on your own territory if you needed the wall?
SHIMON PERES
We didn't build it on Palestinian land. Most of the wall is on the border. You must be aware of it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
85% of its route extends into the West Bank, according to Human Rights Watch.
SHIMON PERES
No, no sir. All wrong.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They're wrong?
SHIMON PERES
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They're all wrong?
SHIMON PERES
No. It's only 8% of the West Bank which is within the wall, and this is because of the defensive line, but you would never have in mind to build a wall, what for? You know, between us the Jordanians, there is no walls, no minefields, no fences, nothing whatsoever, and what is the difference?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why not build it within your own territory?
SHIMON PERES
We build it on the border and we build it ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You built it beyond the border.
SHIMON PERES
No, we built it at the places from where the suicide bombers came. We didn't build it to conquer land, we built it to defend our lives. We have 400 kms of border with the Jordanians. Not a single stone, not a single fence, not a single wall, why don't you look it, what is the difference? Because the Jordanians don't penetrate Israel, don't attack us so we don't build wall.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Human Rights Watch says you're just facilitating the eventual annexation to Israel of most of the large illegal Jewish settlements constructed over the past ...
SHIMON PERES
Tim Sebastian, there is a lot of prejudices against Israel, I know it and you know it, and it's totally untrue, because I'm giving you an example. There are two countries. In Jordan, many of the Jordanians are Palestinians, the same people. Why is there no wall there? Because there is no need for it. We don't have a wall between us and Egypt, why? Because there is no need of it, and I think that Hamas is doing injustice to the Palestinians. They prevent the Palestinians from having a state, they prevent the release of prisoners. You know, the difference between Hamas and Fatah, Hamas represent a tradition and Fatah represent a destiny.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let's take another question please from Sara Sheikh Mahmoud.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Mr. Peres, I would like to ask you - in the past you have supported Israel's return to the pre-1967 borders, with some adjustments needed for security, and to find a solution for settlers. Why did you reject Arab League's proposal for peace and recognition of Israel in exchange for the return of the borders?
SHIMON PERES
I'm sorry, did you get the question?
TIM SEBASTIAN
The question was, in the past you have supported Israel's return to pre-67 borders with some adjustments needed for security and to find a solution for settlers. Why did you reject the Arab League proposal for peace and recognition of Israel in exchange for the return to those borders?
SHIMON PERES
We stick to our proposal, we didn't change it. There are elements in the Arab League proposal that we shall accept willingly.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It was 2002. When are you going to accept them?
SHIMON PERES
Sir, the Arab League doesn't want to come to negotiate. All of them, you know, are very shy. They issue declarations - do you want peace? Then come and negotiate openly, clearly, don't be shy, and don't send us declarations, because maybe we have a say, maybe they will have a say. If the Arab League would like to negotiate, Assad of Syria ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're inviting the Arab League to talk to you at any time?
SHIMON PERES
I don't invite anybody because I think the best thing is to negotiate between us and the Palestinians. You asked me about the Arab League so I answered. I invite the Palestinians to site down and negotiate. It's a problem between the two of us, and I'm convinced that we can find a solution. As Assad too, all the time he's saying he wants peace but he doesn't want to come to negotiate. What sort of a business is that? If you want peace, do like Sadat, do like Hussein, do like Abu Mazen, come and negotiate, but I don't suggest that we shall negotiate with the Arab League. I mean, I don't want to create the wrong impression, I think it will create a disharmony. I think what we have to do is to sit with the Palestinians and find a solution, and I repeat it is possible and it can be done in a relatively short while.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the first row there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening, Mr. Peres. Is it not true that if all Palestinians became Jewish, then we would not have a problem, theoretically speaking? Now, as an example, every Jew in the world has a right to an Israeli citizenship, even if he or she doesn't have a clue where Israel is or hasn't seen Israel, yet a Palestinian who has been born, raised and his whole family for centuries has been there, is excluded from the same right, based on religion. Does this mean that Israel, a country, is built on exclusivity of Jewish supremacy and a type of racism?
SHIMON PERES
You know, if you go back on history, why go back just on centuries, why wouldn't you go back to millenniums? Where does 'us' begin? At the convenience of your point of view, or the early days? The early days, as you know, there were not Arabs in Israel, so I mean, if you go to the past, it's endless. Go to the future. Now let me tell you about being Jewish and being Arabs. I know, to be honest, that many Arabs would like to wake up in the morning and see instead of the Israelis, the Swiss for example. I know that many Israelis would like to wake up one morning and see instead of the Arabs, the Dutch for example. It won't happen. You can't change either your parents or your neighbours. We have to negotiate with you as you are, in full respect. You have to negotiate with us as we are, with all the difficulties. We are not going to change either our content or personality, and I believe it's possible, all of us are human beings ...
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But we're talking about Israeli citizenship.
SHIMON PERES
... and if you want to go to the past, why wouldn't you begin with Abraham? By the way, the Palestinians and the Muslims are saying that all of us are children of Abraham. Was Abraham an Arab? Abraham was Jewish, so what? If we are the children of Abraham, so we should be brothers.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think he wants to come back again.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
What we're talking about, Mr. Peres, is the Israeli citizenship as well. Now, why couldn't you have Muslims that have Israeli citizenships? Why wouldn't we have Muslims with Israeli citizenship? I would say that the Jewish state does not to intend to accommodate the Palestinians except as excluded and controlled minority within its borders, and a weak and pliant mini-state, dependency.
SHIMON PERES
Look, it won't help the citizenship. You have Iraqi citizenship, does this prevent a fight between the Sunnites and the Shi'ites? Look, you must follow ethnicity. There are 24 Arab countries. What is an Arab country? A country where the Arabs are a majority. If you try to change the majority, you may do it, but then you'll have a conflict. There is a single state where you have your Jewish majority. You can't take it away from us, because then we shall not be a Jewish state, and the conflict will go on. The passport will not overpass the conflict, as we see in Algeria, as we see in Iraq, as we see in Sudan. It's not an answer, and you know, what we have, we are 7 million people today in Israel. 1.4 are Arabs. They are full citizens. They have equal rights, and maybe there is the slightest discrimination they're trying to overcome. Among them you have today already 50,000 academicians. Every year 19,000 your Arabs, boys and girls, are registering in the universities. You know, out of the 50,000 academicians, many of them are doctors, they work in the Israeli hospitals, and you'll come into a hospital, you wouldn't distinguish between an Arab and a Jewish doctor, or between an Arab and a Jewish nurse. If we can handle our health and life together, why should we fight? The problem is a problem for relationship and not a problem of declarations.

TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we have to move on here, we have a lot of questions. Could we have one from Dana Sheikh Mahmoud, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Mr. Shimon, you said, I quote, 'The President of Iran should remember that Iran can also be wiped off the map.' Would Israel launch a strike against Iran nuclear facilities like it did against Iraq in the 80's?
SHIMON PERES
I never said it. Look, we don't have any problems with Iran. Historically we have had excellent relations with Iran, under Cyrus for example as a king, under the last king. The problem is not Tehran, the problem is Ahmadinejad. He is a problem for Israel, he is a problem for the principalities here, he is a problem for the Iranian people, because he does not carry either a promise or a solution.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You told a meeting of the Economic Forum in Davos that there were two alternatives, military action or regime change.
SHIMON PERES
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You believe that? And is Israel prepared to carry out either option?
SHIMON PERES
No, Israel will not intervene in the internal business of Iran.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You rule out military action against Iran?
SHIMON PERES
By Israel, yes. Israel doesn't intend to use military actions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You rule it out, completely, against Iran.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Sorry sir, Mr. Peres?
SHIMON PERES
Yes.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Would Israel launch a strike against Iran's nuclear facilities like it did against Iraq in the 1980's?
SHIMON PERES
Israel never threatened any country, not by any weapons including nuclear weapons. Israel was threatened, but Israel didn't threaten anybody else, and we don't intend to change our policy. We are not declaring any enemies, we don't want just to wipe anybody. If we should be attacked, we shall defend ourselves, but our basic policy is not to threaten but to agree and reach peace, I'm repeating it time and again, and I beg you, take it seriously. Why should we fight, what for? Today you know, the land is not as important as it used to be. For generations and generations, the land was the provider of our life - no longer. Agriculture went down from 60% to 1 or 2%. The provider of life, peace and affluence is today science and technology. Science and technologies don't have passports, don't have borders, don't need armies. Armies cannot conquer wisdom, armies cannot stop the spread of knowledge and science. We belong to the same globe, the same world. What happened in the past remains, but as an irrelevant division, as irrelevant prejudice, and you are young people who work for the future.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to reply to that?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, it's all right, thank you very much.

TIM SEBASTIAN
We have a question please from Doua Benhida.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is about Iraq. Has the decline of Iraq become an advantage for Israel?
SHIMON PERES
No. We don't have anything and we don't want to play any role in Iraq, and from my standpoint, I would prefer to see a united Iraq than a divided Iraq, that will answer to the stability of the Middle East, but we are not masters of anybody. The only thing which is in reference to our neighbour is to achieve peace and stop war. We don't have the slightest intention to intervene in the way of life, in the policies of another land. It's not our business. We were not born to master our people. We left the house of slaves not in order to become a house of masters. We want that everybody will be equal and respected and live in peace.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we have a question please from Mariam Gabrial?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Mr. Peres, if you could change one thing that the Arab world perceives about Israel, what would it be?
SHIMON PERES
Look to the future.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Excuse me?
SHIMON PERES
Look, I suggest to you, leave history, it's a waste of time. History is full of mistakes. Some people say you have to study history in order not to repeat the previous mistakes. OK, so you'll make other mistakes, doesn't matter. If you want to remember something, put it on the internet, the internet will remember instead of you. Use your faculties, your talents, your imagination for building your future, not to repeat an old past, and then you and us and everybody can be happily living together in peace. I am telling it to our young people, I'm telling it to you. Look to the future. The future is not necessarily a repetition or a continuation of the past. The future is totally devolved from the past, as science is devolved from land. We live in a different clock and I'm telling you, you and our youngsters, you have a lot of talent, a lot of potential. Put it in a positive use, you and our boys and girls as well, and you will discover that you don't have to repeat the ill-doing of the past, but you can build a future of harmony and understanding and tolerance, and the remaining pieces of this agreement can be settled peacefully by negotiations, so the only thing I wish, you know, I think that people …
AUDIENCE Q (F)
You have been saying this for years, haven't you?
SHIMON PERES
And I didn't change my mind.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But it hasn't happened, has it?
SHIMON PERES
It did happen with Egypt, it did happen with Jordan, and I hope it will happen with the Palestinians as well. It happened even with the Lebanese, we don't have to do any conflict with the Lebanese, so it did happen and it will happen.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But you are known as the indefatigable optimist, aren't you? One of your advisors said to me once, "If you ask Mr. Peres whether there's going to be a peace agreement by Thursday, he'll say, "Yes, there'll be a peace agreement by Thursday.""
SHIMON PERES
Well, if you'll ask Mr. Peres, my dear friend, he will tell you that optimists and pessimists are dying the same way. They live differently, and I suggest to you, live as optimists, don't waste your life to live as pessimists, what for?

TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, a final question please from Farah Sayyam.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Good evening.
SHIMON PERES
Good evening.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
What are the main regrets you have concerning your career as a politician and as a statesman?
SHIMON PERES
That we didn't achieve everything we should have achieved. Look, everybody makes mistakes. Let's be fair, we are human beings. In a democratic society, you have the right to make mistakes. You have the obligation to correct them, and what we have to try is to correct the mistakes we did. I regret that we didn't achieve full peace, and to the last day of my life, I shall devote whatever I have to bring peace with you among us. I think it's a must, it's an inescapable sole alternative, there are no others. I wouldn't like any of you or your children or your relatives or our children, our relatives, to suffer for no reason, for no need. Most of the conflict is solved already, let's face it. You cannot compare it with 20 years ago, and I wish and I feel as a politician that my main task is to shorten the time which is needed to achieve peace, to save life. If somebody will ask me, 'How would you like to be remembered?' I would say simply that I saved the life of a single child, that's my aim, and I shall try to do whatever I can as a human being, to prevent suffering and killing and hatred and prejudices. It's not needed, and you, all of you, can build a different world by goodwill, not by good arms, and that's true about us as well, no difference.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm afraid we've run out of time here. Mr. Peres, thank you very much indeed for coming here, for making the journey here. My thanks to you also, the audience, for coming here. The Doha Debates will be back again next month. Do join us then. For now, from all of us on the team, thank you very much for being here, goodnight, thank you.