Doha Debates Special Event: Hamas meets Fatah

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to this special edition of The Doha Debates, coming to you from the Gulf State of Qatar and sponsored by The Qatar Foundation. It's no secret that the Palestinians are deeply divided. In 2007 when Hamas expelled Fatah from Gaza, scores of people were killed in the factional violence. Since then the two sides are accused by human rights groups of illegally detaining hundreds of each other's supporters, and in some cases torturing and executing them. Peace deals have come and gone: the Mecca deal, the Yemen deal; now we're told the two sides are close to an Egyptian sponsored deal, but already they're accusing, not just each other, but both Cairo and Washington as well, of trying to undermine the accord. Will this deal, so far unsigned, disintegrate like others before it?  What went wrong in the past, and can it be fixed? In this unique session we bring together senior officials from Hamas and Fatah for you to question, about why they have fought each other, how they can settle their differences and why they feel they should represent the Palestinian people. Because of the special nature of this event we have dispensed with the normal debating motion, but we will be asking you to vote at the end on one question: "Do you have confidence in the current Palestinian leaders?" Well our speakers have travelled far and wide to be here, they are, from Fatah, Dr. Nabil Shaath, one of the PLO's chief negotiators, and the Palestinian Authority's first ever foreign minister from 2003 to 2005. And with him Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, chairman of the political committee of the Palestinian Legislative Council and senior Fatah spokesman. From Hamas, Osama Hamdan, Hamas representative in Lebanon and a member of the organisation's political bureau, he has also participated in talks between Hamas and European officials. And Mohammad Nazzal, senior Hamas leader in Damascus and spokesperson for the political bureau. Ladies and gentlemen: our panel.[Applause]
So now let me first call upon Nabil Shaath to give his view of the conflict with Hamas and the ways out of it. Dr. Shaath, you have two minutes.

NABIL SHAATH
We, the Palestinians, are a people who fought bravely for 100 years to achieve the freedom of our country and the return of our refugees. In the 20^th Century we are the very last colony in this world today.  We struggle, united, most of the time. We differ, politically, at times, but this is the first time that we have split politically and geographically - the worst. Nothing worse could hit a beleaguered people than disunity, leading to separation and civil war. Look around you: Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Yemen, Lebanon, and now Palestine, and even before we are free and independent, Qatar, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Syria mediated and tried to help. Lebanese reconciliation was a success. Yemen and Sudan seem to be coming along. I pray for Palestine, civil wars are the worst in history, pitting brother against brother. There are always third parties interested in keeping the parties at war. But the enemy and the third parties are not the only parties to blame.  We have to take responsibility. Why did we allow it to happen in the first place, or to continue? I refuse the insult that we are nothing but clients of Iran and America; we are independent strugglers for freedom, therefore we are responsible. Resolution of our separation has no military solution; only through dialogue and reconciliation can we do it. There were Palestinian efforts at reconciliation from the very beginning and a big role of Arab mediators was played. Egypt took the major responsibility for one and a half years and it tried its best. We reached a detailed agreement.  It was abridged and edited by Egypt into what was called an Egyptian paper. We signed it, despite our reservations.  Hamas did not.  It had reservations about the final Egyptian edited version.  I know we need help, and to perform other steps to rebuild confidence we need ongoing political discourse, partnership, power sharing arrangements. But we need, above all, to sign now before the Arab Summit in Tripoli. If we do then we will engage our Arab brothers in helping us implement the agreement.   If we don't that opportunity will be lost. Ladies and gentlemen a united Palestine is required to have a free and independent Palestine.  Thank you very much.[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nabil Shaath, thank you very much indeed. You say a united Palestine is required. You remain far apart and hostile to each other don't you? Your President, Mahmoud Abbas, refers to Gaza under Hamas as an ‘Emirate of Darkness'. How conducive is that to reconciliation?
NABIL SHAATH
When you are at the kind of separation we were in and at the kind of civil war that we were engaged [in], words are really just part of the expression of that horrible condition.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, let's look at the casualties, which are far more important than the words. 1,431 Palestinians killed by Palestinians over the last nine years. What did they die for?  What did they die for?
NABIL SHAATH
In my mind they died in vain and in my mind...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's a terrible admission.
NABIL SHAATH
Yes, we should overcome this.  Nobody in struggle against an enemy like our enemy can really afford to engage in civil war. We have become in civil war and we need to extricate ourselves out of it in words and in deeds, and I think we have the opportunity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But perhaps - since you have lived through so much bloodshed and so much failure in negotiations - perhaps you are no longer the right people to lead the Palestinians through this. Perhaps it's time to step aside and say: "We've had our go, we've failed and now it's time for new blood to come in".
NABIL SHAATH
I think we need a unity government, that's what I said in my first two minutes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But made up of new people?
NABIL SHAATH
Well new people are very important to rejuvenate our movements.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The old guard has failed hasn't it?
NABIL SHAATH
The old guard has not totally failed. I think its basic failure is the civil war.
TIM SEBASTIAN
1,431 people would give credence to the idea that they have failed. 1,431 people, who you say, by your own word, have died in vain. That's a terrible cost.
NABIL SHAATH
We have failed in our civil war.  We have not failed in facing a very difficult enemy. We were a situation in which the only interest in us was as refugees who needed help. Today we are a people who have recognised right of self-determination, who are trying to build a state and are really at the focal interest of the whole world. And we've done that with our struggle.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Nabil Shaath.
NABIL SHAATH
We have made a mistake in allowing ourselves to engage in civil war and we want to extricate ourselves from it, and that is precisely what we need to do.  Sign!
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Nabil Shaath, thank you very much indeed. Now let me ask please, Mohammad Nazzal to please give us your view of the conflict with Fatah, and how you see it being resolved.

MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
I would like to emphasise that Hamas is committed to reconciliation and national unity. We are trying to reach an agreement with all Palestinian factions, in particular our brothers in the Fatah movement. Despite all our sincere efforts, no agreement was reached. You can ask me why.  I can tell you that there are two main reasons for this failure. Firstly, the American-Israeli negative interference, and imposing impossible conditions. Secondly, due to the American- Israeli pressures the Egyptians insisted on us accepting and signing final agreement without taking into consideration our reservations. Now you can ask me what is the solution for reconciliation and national unity? I can say in brief: the only way for the future is to sit down to meaningful dialogue with no preconditions. And we in the Hamas movement are willing to do this.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Nazzal, thank you very much indeed.[Applause]You say you are committed to reconciliation but somehow the fact that you haven't signed the peace deal is all somebody else's fault isn't it? It's the Egyptians' fault, it's the Americans' fault, it's the Israelis' fault.  But the fact is that you have had plenty of negotiations with Fatah and you're the ones who won't sign the peace deal.   So you're the obstacle, you're the ones who are holding up the deal. It's fine for Fatah, why don't you put aside your narrow political interests and sign it for the sake of your people? How many more people have to die?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Of course the Palestinians are responsible for that, but you...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your side too.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Yes.  But you must not ignore the factors of Americans, of Israelis, factor of Egyptians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, but let's talk about your responsibility.  You say you bear some responsibility for this, why have you felt unable to sign this peace deal? Isn't it more important to stop the killing of Palestinians by Palestinians than to have political differences with Fatah? What's the most important thing for you?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
You are talking about Palestinians... [there is] no killing of Palestinians now.  If you are talking about three years ago, since three years ago there is no Palestinians killing, now we are...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've got hundreds of Fatah supporters in your jails just as they have hundreds of your supporters in their jails.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
You know, every revolution has internal problems.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's a bit more than a... We're not talking about parking offences here, we're talking about hundreds of people in each others' jails.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Every revolution has internal problems. Why we are negotiating with our brothers in Fatah? Because we want to go outside of the circle, this is our responsibility.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are the negotiations going? They're going nowhere because you've blocked them.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
You can't ignore the American pressure, Mitchell, David Hill, previously Condoleezza Rice - they are coming to our region and they are saying: "Don't make a solution" or: "Don't sign an agreement with Hamas".
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Nazzal, Mahmoud Abbas, the President of Fatah, he says that it's Iran that is stopping you.  He said that it's Iran that is stopping Hamas from signing this agreement. Is that true?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The Iranians are saying to you: "Stop, don't sign this agreement".
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, no. You know, I want to tell you: there is propaganda, they are always talking that Iran is behind Hamas, Syria is behind Hamas, Qatar is behind Hamas. This is what they are saying.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you're saying Fatah is in league with the Israelis?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, we are not saying that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well your spokesman said it, he said Fatah is collaborating with the Israeli occupation to the detriment of the Palestinian cause - he just said that.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, what we are saying, we are saying that there is interference from American and Israeli sides. This is what we are saying.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, Mohammad Nazzal, thank you very much indeed.
[Applause]So now let me please ask Abdullah Abdullah from Fatah to give his view of the conflict with Hamas.

ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Almost three years ago we had a split in the Palestinian society and the Palestinian national movement and some sides tried to use some pretexts to justify what happened at that time. But almost three years have passed, with all its bad times, with all its negatives, with all its detriment to the progress of our national cause. The response of Hamas to the Goldstone Report, in my opinion, is a signal that ushers [in] a new way to reconciliation. Hamas no more can claim the political differences with Fatah as to why to reconcile. Hamas recognised twice in its response to Goldstone, that t[he] Oslo Agreement was arguing for it and attacking the Israeli practices. Hamas also recognised that continued attack on Israel, militarily, at this time is not in the national interest of Palestine. They admit, in their response, that these rockets are primitive, are not effective, and only a challenge to tell the Israelis that we defy their policies. That exactly was the opinion of Fatah at the time and still today, the change of heart of Hamas against the military use in the Gaza Strip - it doesn't mean that they're abandoning their right to resist the occupier. Doesn't mean that it is a sign of cowardice, but rather a new reality learnt through direct experience, although we don't prefer to be the disciples of Montesquieu in order to have every lesson learnt through direct experience. We learned from the past that we have a mission ahead of us in order to keep our cause alive and [to keep it as] the top priority of the international community, and we the Palestinians [will work] hard to make that progress, until we achieve independence and sovereignty. We realised, in the past two years, that resistance... and Gaza Strip did not bring us closer to liberation. We realised that negotiations when we were divided did not take us anywhere.  Therefore the ground is prepared for our unity, to reconcile and work ahead for the challenges facing us. Our enemy is in crisis.  We can follow him through the Goldstone Report, we can follow him through the differences, the violation of sovereignty of many of the closest friends of Israel. We can follow him through our daily resistance in almost every village, every city including Jerusalem, to say that we are alive and we can do this better if we were united.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Abdullah Abdullah, thank you very much indeed.
[Applause]
So, with all this unity, and all this struggle to keep your cause alive, why don't you have a peace deal with Hamas?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Exactly. We offered our hand, we still do.  In fact...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So who's to blame? Is it Iran, as your President says?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
That doesn't bring us any closer.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But is it Iran?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
It is us, it is us.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But your president seems to think it's Iran.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
There are influences, we don't deny that.  There are interests, there are regional interests, but finally the answer...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is that what you're afraid of, Hamas' connection with Iran?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
The answer lies with us, we want every connection we have, to any country, whichever that country may be, to serve the cause of our people. We are not afraid of connections.  We had connections with the Soviet Union...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What would serve the cause of your people, Abdullah Abdullah, is to get a peace deal, wouldn't it?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
It's not a peace deal, it's unity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
A reconciliation agreement...
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
We have to consolidate our internal front, we have to strengthen the successes of our people that cannot come if we are divided.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you have failed.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
It only comes when we are together.  Their flesh is our flesh, their blood is our blood...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me, you have failed year after year, after year. Why don't you admit defeat and ask somebody else to come and do the negotiating for you, because clearly your leaders aren't capable of doing it, are they?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Our leaders, from day one, said they are leading a national liberation front. This national liberation front, the people's warfare takes a long time.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Poverty, corruption, death, torture, extra-judicial killing - that's been the menu that your regime has inflicted on the Palestinians.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
That is not the reality.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That is the reality because every human rights group tells you it is.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
No, the reality is building our institutions, keeping our commitment to the realisation of our natural rights of our people, not compromising one iota of these rights with all the difficulties, with all the hardships and standing up high in the face of the challenges of our enemy and we will succeed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Abdullah Abdullah thank you, thank you very much.
[Applause]
So now let me please ask Osama Hamdan from Hamas to give us his view of the conflict with Fatah.

OSAMA HAMDAN
Salaam aleykum ( Peace be upon you) everybody. I have to say first that the problem, or the division, is a political division.  It's between two opinions: how to deal with Israelis, how to free our people and how to liberate our country. We believe in Hamas and we are still committed to the resistance and we believe it's an idea of how to manage the struggle with occupation, not to fall in love with this occupation like we have seen in the last years. The negotiations, for about 20 years, did nothing, but more suffering for the Palestinians and more losses. What is happening now in Jerusalem and the West Bank, building settlements is a clear sign [of] that. Everyone knows that we have tried hard to achieve a reconciliation, but this is not supposed to be by force, it's supposed to be by understanding, talking to each other. We have always rejected the outside interference, mainly the United States and Israel.  We believe we have to stand together as Palestinians to face all the political pressures on our people and on our cause.  In fact I believe we have to have direct talking and a direct dialogue on the highest Palestinian level.  I mean by this the Palestinian leadership, mainly both sides, Hamas and Fatah. The political issue is supposed to be a major issue. We have to talk about how to achieve our national goals according to our rights and interests. We have also to discuss the national unity on the basis of the partnership, no one can say that he's the only side who can control and lead the Palestinians by himself. This is supposed to lead to the reconstruction of the Palestinian institutions: the PLO, the PA and other institutions. By building those institutions I believe we, as Palestinians, can find our way through those institutions by democratic way. We gave our hand to our brothers in Fatah knowing that finally we have to reunite. Noone can achieve his goals by division. Thank you.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Osama Hamdan, thank you very much. You say you gave your hand to Fatah, but you won't sign the peace agreement with them, why not?
OSAMA HAMDAN
It's not a peace agreement, it's a paper which was written by the Egyptians; there are differences between what we have agreed on with Fatah and they're written in the paper. So we said let's return back to the papers which we have signed on, if that happened we will sign directly.
TIM SEBASTIAN
There's been a draft for five months, it's not going anywhere - why not?
OSAMA HAMDAN
There was an initial draft which we have accepted, then changes came to this draft, those changes came by the pressure of the United States, that's clear.  David Hill led those pressures...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So again it's somebody else's fault. You don't take any responsibility for this?
OSAMA HAMDAN
Excuse me, it's not somebody's fault.  We had agreed on some things, we had signed papers about the PLO, the reconstruction, about some other issues. Those papers were changed in the final draft, which is known as The Egyptian Paper.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mahmoud Abbas says you are just making excuses in the end, you're just making excuses, and Iran is telling you to do this.
OSAMA HAMDAN
He can try us...going back to those signed papers from both sides, Hamas and Fatah had during the negotiations in Cairo... if he's saying that Iran is making pressure on us, an actual question will be here: what about the Israelis and the American pressure? I'm not trying to say he's following what they are saying, but all the time when we were negotiating in Cairo Mr. Ahmed Qurei ( Abu Ala) was telling us "this will not be accepted by the Israelis, this will be rejected by the Americans..."
TIM SEBASTIAN
But isn't the fact is that there's no trust between you, is there? There is no trust whatsoever between you.
OSAMA HAMDAN
There is a bad experience but I think we have to build trust between each other by working together.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You call this a political problem. It's a human problem isn't it?
OSAMA HAMDAN
It's a political problem, it's not a human problem.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Abdullah Abdullah is the only person who's mentioned the Palestinian people in this.  No one else has actually talked about the plight of the Palestinian people. We have suffering because of the disagreements and the arguments and the conflict between your two groups.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Excuse me, the Palestinian people are suffering because of the occupation, no one is talking about the occupation, which is the main issue, no one is talking about the Western support for the occupation, which is one of the reasons [for] the sufferings of the Palestinian people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And your own Palestinian human rights monitoring group says both Hamas and Fatah have committed grave violations and are threatening the stability and safety of the Palestinian people.
OSAMA HAMDAN
I didn't hear that...
TIM SEBASTIAN
...your two groups, your two groups.
OSAMA HAMDAN
I didn't hear that, but I have to say there is some problems, ok.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I have the report, I can give you a copy of it.
OSAMA HAMDAN
If there are some problems like this, they can be solved by talking to each other.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's new to you?
OSAMA HAMDAN
No, I am saying clearly there is a problem inside the Palestinian situation. We have to solve it as Palestinians, without any interference.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Osama Hamdan, thank you very much indeed.
[Applause] 
I am going to turn the floor now over to you, the audience, and we're prepared to take questions. When you put up your hand and if you get a question I would like you to say where you come from please. There's a gentleman on the left up there... yes you.

AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening, I'm a Palestinian. Dr. Shaath you mentioned that the parties need new people, and Mr. Hamdan mentioned that the resolution, the current Palestinian situation can be solved in a democratic way with the current institutions. Over the past 60 years we've seen what Fatah and Hamas have been about: constant bickering, continued hooliganism in the streets and continued violence over the past five years, with 1,400 plus people have died. What messages are sending to us Palestinians who are living outside, who continuously see land being taken in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, continued blockade... what is it telling us? What are you telling us exactly by continuing these arguments? 
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nabil Shaaath.
NABIL SHAATH
We're telling you we want to resolve this, we're telling you it's really very tough to fight the Israeli occupation, the Israelis have international support, have a strategic alliance with the United States and it's very tough to fight them, and therefore, in many cases, when we come to a very frustrating moment when we differ about how to go on, we have problems. And this time we had the worst problem, we are telling you we want to resolve this, we are telling you we're determined to bring back our unity. And when we fall into problems these problems have to be solved, and solved by reconciliation not by war, solved by dialogue and not by fighting each other.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to come back on that?
AUDIENCE (M)
You say the problems are severe, if they're severe you're supposed to consolidate the parties' power, no conditions, no strings attached, but how come there is still bickering between you two and your parties?
NABIL SHAATH
You have to keep urging us to continue and to succeed.  You can be a very important pressure on us, you are our people, you are not totally separated, you are not outside, you are insiders. You are part of the game and therefore your words count.  We need constantly to hear from you.
AUDIENCE (M)
Yeah, but our words have been spoken over the past 60 years and nothing's happening.
NABIL SHAATH
No, no, sixty years is not nothing happening. Sixty years we were a case of a defeated people who were considered just refugees who need help from the international community. We are now a people with a right to self-determination on our land, and the whole world thinks our problem is the single most important problem. We have gained this by struggle, we didn't gain it by fighting each other.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to just go back to the questioner briefly and ask him what you think about what you've heard.
AUDIENCE (M)
Well can you just repeat the last part actually? You mentioned that you're showing us that you're improving or something but, if... sorry.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well we'll give you a chance to come back to it a bit later perhaps, ok.[Applause]
Just a very brief comment because we'll again move on and take a new question. Gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you, I'm from Eritrea. My question is to...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're from where, sorry?
AUDIENCE (M)
Eritrea. To Mr. Abdullah Abdullah, you mentioned that you don't believe that Hamas believed, no more believed that attacks on Israel can be a solution to the problem, so what are these solutions? I mean it's not about condemning everything Israel does and you just condemn. I can condemn sitting here, but you are, as an elite sitting in power, what have you done to undo the problem that happened to the Palestinians, your people?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Abdullah Abdullah.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Remember that resistance is our motto, our motto will be forever, till our land is liberated and our people are free, sovereign and independent. We never stopped resistance but resistance varies, the style, the mode of resistance from one area to another, from one state to another. When we feel that the... using one method of resistance is costing us too much, [more] than we gain from it, then we abandon it, we choose another way of resistance. Remember in the late sixties we opted for plane hijacking as a sort of resistance to show the world that there is a people called the Palestinian people, they have a land occupied and they need to be free and independent. But when that mode of resistance became too costly to us than [the] benefit from it - so we abandon it. Now, our people are up in arms resisting the Israeli occupation.  If you see the number of people who are coming to our side and our resistance in Balain, in Nalain, in Jerusalem. In Jerusalem, by the way, in Sheikh Jarrah we have more non-Palestinians participating in the resistance of the occupation than Palestinians.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, so are you saying, are you saying Dr. Abdullah, let me just ask you this: are you now saying that Fatah now wants to go back to violence?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Never, no, we're saying we resist violence, but there is non-violent resistance.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to bring the questioner back in now.
AUDIENCE (M)
I want to understand, what have you done at least for the last Gaza massacre? It was a severe thing. What have you done? I'm asking for actions.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
I'll tell what you what we've done for the Gaza massacre, for the Gaza massacre we've done several things.   One of these is to file a report with the International Criminal Court, to file a report with the United Nations, to follow on the implementation of recommendations of the Goldstone Report which we believe, as we call it in our Islamic heritage, these are the "hejarah men sjeel' ( stones) against our enemy...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to bring Osama Hamdan in here from Hamas.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Well I believe it's important to notice the picture. According to the political resistance, Israeli troops can invade Ramallah whenever and however they want. Yesterday they arrested one of the senior leaders of Hamas from inside Ramallah. While in 2009 the Israelis could not invade Gaza because of the militant resistance.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's your point.
[Applause]
Very briefly.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
But why Hamas now is saying violent resistance in Gaza is not in the interest of the Palestinian cause?  Publicly...
OSAMA HAMDAN
Hamas is not saying that, Hamas is talking to all the Palestinian factions to manage the resistance against the occupation and there is a difference between managing the resistance and saying we are against the resistance, as Abu Mazen is saying that all the time... he's saying...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, what is on the piece of paper that he's passed you?
OSAMA HAMDAN
..."I am even against throwing stones against the Israelis" - he said that in public, he said that several times, and no one said he's saying something wrong.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Every day we are resisting with all our..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let him read, you asked him to read the piece of paper, give him a chance to read it.
OSAMA HAMDAN
He's presenting me [with] a paper, I'm not sure if it's a true paper, there is no insurance it is true. It's a photocopy which anyone in the sixth grade can do it by his own computer.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, what does it say? Please just let him read it.
OSAMA HAMDAN
In fact it's using the same language which we heard from Abu Mazen once by saying: "Kill all the people who are launching the rockets." This paper is asking the security forces to catch all the people who are launching rockets and to investigate with them by the intelligence - you have to know we don't have general intelligence in Gaza, we don't have this system in Gaza. It is written here in the paper, they have to be investigated by the general intelligence, we don't have general intelligence in Gaza unfortunately for you.
[Applause]
I hope if we can concentrate deeply on how to get out of the division, how to solve the problem and instead of scoring points against each other - this will not help. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row. No, I'm going to take a question thank you. You can have your piece of paper back. You sir, can we get a microphone to the front row please?
AUDIENCE (M)
I come from Egypt.  My question is about the famous saying: "Divide to conquer". I see this as happening between Fatah and Hamas and I wish to see Palestinians and Israelis discussing and negotiating peace agreements and liberating the land instead of having Hamas and Fatah discussing this for what - sixty years to come? - about the different ideologies that they have.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, can we come to a question please.
AUDIENCE (M)
That's really my point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row there. Do you have a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes.  I'm a Palestinian. I have a question for the Fatah representative.  As you know there are some peace process going on for four months and everyone knows that this will end up with no results, so what kind of action will take place after the ending of these peace talks?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nabil Shaath.
NABIL SHAATH
There is no peace talks, there was an effort by the Americans and the Arab League to urge the Palestinians to go into indirect peace talks, but these have failed before they started...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you talking about peace talks between Hamas and Fatah or between...
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, between Hamas and Fatah.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Between Hamas and Fatah he's talking about.
NABIL SHAATH
Between Hamas and Fatah there is really, as we both have just said, there is a paper...
AUDIENCE (M)
I mean between Israelis and Palestinians through American I mean... everybody knows that it will end up with no results, so what kind of action will take place after the ending of these four months of peace talks?
NABIL SHAATH
I think I understood, the question is about Palestinian-Israeli negotiations, not about Hamas-Fatah. As I just told you these negotiations never started, there was a resolution by the Arab League to support going into indirect negotiations, but that did not happen because just before we started again the Israelis announced the building of 1,600 new settlements in Jerusalem and announced that 50,000 more houses will be built in Jerusalem, i.e. swallowing of Jerusalem before we even get started at negotiations. And therefore these negotiations will stop. We are not going into negotiations if the Americans cannot even keep their word about stopping new settlements.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the question is what happens afterwards?
NABIL SHAATH
That is what my...
AUDIENCE (M)
You seem like without a strategy...
NABIL SHAATH
No, my brother Abdullah was trying to identify what is our strategy. Our strategy today has four elements, one: continued defiance of Israeli occupation and popular resistance against every settlement and every wall built by the Israelis, including the attempt by the Israelis to take over new homes in Jerusalem. Two: pursuing the Israelis in the international arena, like the South Africans pursued the apartheid racist regime in South Africa, leading to a total boycott of Israel like what happened with South Africa. Three: building our national unity as quickly as possible to be able to have the political dialogue that Mr. Osama Hamdan talked about, about how to face the Israelis and yes, Hamas in the last year have not sent rockets or anything outside Gaza because it became impossible to do. And fourth...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nabil Shaath let me bring in one more point, one more point.
NABIL SHAATH
All of these are our strategy of how to deal with a situation without negotiations.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let me bring in Mohammad Nazzal here.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Actually I want to answer the bigger question: who is the enemy of Palestinians? Israeli occupation. Some people are trying to transfer [the] conflict between Israelis and Palestinians to Fatah and Hamas.  We can't deny...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Somebody is trying to do that? Haven't you killed enough of your own people for that to be a reality?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, no, please, give me a moment.  We can't deny and ignore that there is a big difference, political differences, between Fatah and Hamas, but it was not civil war as the term which many people are using.  It was some clashes, it is not a civil war because civil war, it's happening among all parties, all groups in one community. It was clashes between Fatah and Hamas.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it's really not important, 1,400 people dead - Palestinians killed by Palestinians.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
It is not 1,400.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What's the figure?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
I do not know exactly. One person killed by clashes, we are rejecting that, but we are not talking about numbers.  There was no civil war.  It was, and it is now, a big conflict, a big difference between Hamas and Fatah. Why we are here, why are we talking now? We are talking now to resolve the problems between Fatah and Hamas.
TIM SEBASTIAN
There's no sign that you're resolving these problems, no sign whatsoever.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
You know, you can see what's happening in Iraq, in Lebanon, in Sudan.  I mean by dialogue, only dialogue, this is the way to resolve our conflict or our problem. What happened here in Doha, amongst Sudanese in Darfur, what has happened in Doha also among Lebanese groups?  I think we have one way, to resolve our problems - by dialogue.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the front row there, you sir. Can we get a microphone to the front row please?
AUDIENCE (M)
This question is to Dr. Shaath, Dr. Abdullah.  I'm from Palestine. Obviously any reconciliation needs trust and there is a lack of trust between Hamas and Fatah, but my question to you is how can Fatah, specifically, expect trust from any Palestinians when Fatah has been negotiating endlessly without preconditions with Israel, for most of my life, while Israel expands the settlements, increases its siege, denies the right to return, imprisons thousands of Palestinians. How can we trust you when your leader Mahmoud Abbas hamstrings the Goldstone Report in the UN? [Applause]. How can we trust you when Salem Fayyad , the illegally appointed Prime Minister, appointed by Mahmoud Abbas...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, that's a lot of questions, can we ask him to answer? Nabil Shaath.
NABIL SHAATH
My dear friend, what needs to be understood in this hall is the difficulty of resolving the Palestinian problem, not because we Palestinians are stupid or incapable, not because we Palestinians have not given enough sacrifices, but neither have we been able to liberate our land by war or by negotiations. We fought for 100 years and we are still an occupied country, this is not because we are not sacrificing or we are not negotiating, it's because your enemy are the Israelis who are European Jews that were persecuted by European Christians, and we are made to pay the price. And because of an agreement and strategic alliance between the Israelis and the Americans, that makes it very difficult for us to achieve results.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let the questioner come back please.
AUDIENCE (M)
Dr. Shaath it's very obvious that you understand the strategy has failed. My question to you is why do you continue doing it?
[Applause]
NABIL SHAATH
Look Mr. Hamdan and Mr. Abdullah really went into the wrong discussion. It's not a question of what papers Mr. Hamdan has to read.
OSAMA HAMDAN
I didn't bring the paper, it's not my fault.
NABIL SHAATH
Try to be a little bit more neutral please, we are brothers here. And in fact we have much better relations between us that it seems, you appreciate between you and us, so please just take your wisdom a little bit in hand. What I was saying is, during the last year Hamas did not send one rocket against the Israelis from Gaza.  It's not because they are cowards, it's because it's impossible. Anybody who knows what happened in Gaza a year ago - the Israelis devastated Gaza and the people resisted bravely - but it was impossible to continue. You must understand it is very difficult here.  The point is...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me go back to the questioner here, can I ask him what kind of strategy you would like to see Fatah pursue?
NABIL SHAATH
...it is not easy, neither can you just negotiate alone, nor can you just fight alone, you must continue looking for ways of facing the Israelis!
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to go back to the questioner and ask him what you would like to see Fatah pursue in terms of practices.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm actually impressed because Dr. Shaath brought up the idea of taking Israel to task the way the South African apartheid regime was taken to task, I completely support that. However the idea of negotiating over an Egyptian paper, a Qatari paper, whatever paper - we need to negotiate amongst ourselves, we can't do this without outside influence because that brings in outside pressures. We have to have a united from that does not discount any form of resistance, whether it's military or non-violent... unfortunately your leadership has completely discounted and demonised people who do use military resistance. We need to step away from that kind of demonisation and we need to work together. And I want to know, this also goes to the representatives from Hamas, what are you going to be doing to gain the Palestinian people's trust, because you've lost a lot of that as well unfortunately.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Osama Hamdan.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Well in fact I believe we have to re-evaluate the political process, either the negotiation or what happened in the Palestinian situation.  We are deeply concerned about that and because of that, through the Palestinian dialogue, we insist to have an elected Palestinian national council for the PLO so all the Palestinians all over the world can vote, can elect their representatives, can say their word, can participate in making the decisions, and this will make the difference, as we believe in Hamas, by asking the Palestinians, letting all the Palestinian people all over the world to say their word and to participate in the resistance against occupation. Not to wait for someone to help them, but to do the things by themselves.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Excuse me, I think that the PLO must make a revision concerning their strategy of political process.  I think...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What does that mean: "make a revision"? Stop talking?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, no, changing the strategy.  I think, where is the peace process now? Apartheid wall, the continuous building of settlements, changing the nature of Jerusalem, insisting on the Jewishness of the state of Israel - this is what is going on on the ground. So I think the PLO and the PA must change the strategy of peace process because there is no peace process now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
I will add one word here please about this strategy. The one who misses the strategy of the Palestinian national movement needs to look into [what is happening] daily. We never lost our sight of what is our strategy.  We are a people under occupation.  Our strategy is to make the occupation more costly to the occupier, force the occupier to abandon his occupation and get our country free.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
How?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
I tell you how...
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
How - by lips, by words, by condemnations?
[Applause]
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
I'll tell you. The first prerequisite is to stick to our national rights, not compromising them, not abandoning them, not giving in to the occupier - number one, and this is done. No one can claim any Palestinian leader is compromising the national prize of the Palestinian people. Second, to resist the occupation by all means available, that makes this occupation...
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Even military?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
If it is military, fine. You remember, I brought the paper.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is this your view? Are you opening it up to military means now?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Mr. Mahmoud Abbas, the President of Palestinians and the President of Fatah and the President of PLO?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Listen, the general opinion of the Palestinians, and if you don't recognise this paper, or the signatory of this paper, recall the statement of Dr. Zaha, when he said...
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Which paper?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
This paper I brought you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's not go back into the paper again.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
This is more realisation of the reality on the ground, this is more realisation...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to clarify one thing, excuse me Dr. Abdullah, I want to clarify one thing.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
...how many rockets did you fire....
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to clarify one thing..
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
...because you realised...
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
You accused us in the time of Gaza...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me!  Could I ask you please to be quite!
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
...that Hamas is responsible for rockets!
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could I ask you please to be quiet for one second, please. Please.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
This is not the case.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please I would like you just to be quiet for one second, we have come to an interesting point in the discussion, you [indicating to Abdullah Abdullah] appear to be holding out the possibility that Fatah will now resume violence as one of its tactics. I'm asking Dr. Shaath if that is in fact the case. Can I ask Dr. Shaath to, can I ask Dr. Shaath please?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want him to comment on this now please. Respect the Chair, please.
NABIL SHAATH
Fatah started the armed struggle and fought bravely for 26 years. And before Fatah six Palestinian revolutions between 1919 and 1948, including 1936 to 1939 when the Palestinian people gave 30,000 martyrs, which were 3 percent of the Palestinian people, the highest in history. So what are we talking about? It is the right of the Palestinian people to fight militarily, it is their right in accordance with international law.  The question is: can a people fight for a hundred years? You have to use all your rights in the right time, in the right place so that the people can withstand a long-term struggle.  And our struggle is a long-term struggle, it's not a struggle that ends in two days, or two months, or two years.  I was born in the struggle, I was born in 1938, I was born in Safad, in Safad no doctor could have arrived because Safad was the centre of the leadership of the revolution. These people have struggled for a hundred years, what are you talking about?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Osama Hamdan.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Well it's a good point, first of all Algerian people, they fought it for 132 years and then they liberated their homeland, Algeria...after one hundred.
NABIL SHAATH
Algeria? 130 years?
OSAMA HAMDAN
Yes.
NABIL SHAATH
Never continuously.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Exactly, and this is the point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, please, let them have their say.
OSAMA HAMDAN
This is the point.  Fatah started the resistance against occupation in 1965, when there was a free Gaza and West Bank. They started the fight to liberate Haifa, Safad, A'aka. You say that you are still sticking to your national goals - what about these places? What about these cities? Now you are talking only about Gaza and West Bank. It's not...
NABIL SHAATH
No, but you too, you talk about a state in Gaza and the West Bank, you talk about hudna, I mean this is, we are not too far away, what are we talking about?
OSAMA HAMDAN
Let me continue Dr. Nabil. Till now we are still insisting not to recognise the occupation as a state because recognition of Israel means that we are dropping down our rights in occupied territories, 1948, excuse me Dr. Nabil. So it brings us to the point which I mentioned initially.  We have to talk about our political programme.  What is the definition of the Palestinian interests? The definition of the Palestinian national rights, how to manage the struggle against the occupation? This are the major issues which we are supposed to talk about and to agree on, and then we can move forward, and I believe we will not need more than 15 years to achieve our goals if we were united together.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I am going to take another question. I would like some questions for Hamas please, for this side. Who has questions for Hamas? Lady up there, you have a question for Hamas?
AUDIENCE (F)
I am from the United States. Late in August 2009 Hamas was willing to open dialogue with the Obama administration, and now, all of a sudden, you are talking about negative interference and that the US is standing in the way of signing the peace treaty. What do you mean by that? What are you trying to tell us by that? 
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Nazzal.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
The policy of Hamas is to make links, relations, with all countries - except Israel of course.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
It got you some applause, but it doesn't answer the question.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
When Obama became President, what we said [was] that we will give him a chance to change the policy of the American administration to be neutral, not to be biased towards the Israeli government. After one year of the Obama administration we can say that the Obama administration failed in the examination. Still the Obama administration is biased to Israel, they didn't make anything. The siege on Gaza is still going on, reconstruction of Gaza is not moving at all until this moment, they didn't stop the settlements...yesterday...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what did you expect from them in one year? Look how many years you have been negotiating and failing. What did you expect in one year?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Yesterday the American administration denied the building of settlements but they can't do anything practically. It was, you know, the day Joe Biden arrived to the Palestinian territories, Netanyahu announced to build 1,600 units. So what's Obama doing for Palestinians?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Nazzal, thank you. I'm going to take another question - lady up there in the middle.
AUDIENCE (F)
I have a question but first a general comment.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are you from?
AUDIENCE (F)
Lebanon. So first of all I'd like to appeal to your conscience and to put it in Arabic simple terms for all the panel to understand me...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm sorry we're being broadcast in English, could you do this in English?
AUDIENCE (F)
I know, I just want the panel to completely get the thought I'm trying to get through. I'm appealing to your consciousness as the biggest leaders of the Palestinian people. How does it feel, before I get into that part... you've managed to lose not only the Palestinian spirit of resistance in the Arab world, but you've also managed to lose the Arab spirit of resistance in the Arab world. Right now Al-Aqsa is being threatened of coming down and there is no one moving, like literally there are no Arabs moving, no one speaking up against it. I'm talking about, not administration-wise, but population-wise, there is no mass movement to change that. And I think what makes people want to change is the leadership they have, and if the leadership is failing to instigate that kind of resistance inside of us, then I think it's time for all of you to step down. So my question to you is, today, what have you taken from this debate? After seeing what students have to tell you, you've failed us all. Are you ready to step down and allow a new generation to come up in your place and try to tackle what you've failed to do?
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Osama Hamdan, would you like to go first on that?
OSAMA HAMDAN
Well I believe we are the new generation in Palestine. In fact we are the new generation in Palestine and I believe if someone feels upset about what happens, that encourages us to continue our struggle and resistance against the occupation. And also, I hope it will convince all the Palestinian leaders to go forward to the Palestinian reconciliation on the basis of the Palestinian people's interests, not on the basis of organisational interests.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The questioner was shaking her head in disbelief. What did you want to say?
AUDIENCE (F)
We've spent the entire night asking you questions and all of you have failed to answer any questions that we have. We are a new generation that is coming up and we want to fight against the enemy, against the occupation.
NABIL SHAATH
Please come and fight for heaven's sake, please come to Palestine...tomorrow!
AUDIENCE (F)
Are you ready to switch positions? Are you up for this?
NABIL SHAATH
Of course we are ready.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'll be at your office tomorrow then.
NABIL SHAATH
Come and take over.
AUDIENCE (F)
Thank you.
NABIL SHAATH
Come to Palestine!
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Abdullah Abdullah.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Last month we were commemorating the fifth anniversary of the resistance of Bil'in.  About 500 people were in attendance, among the wounded there were two, one twelve year old boy and one eighty year-old man. We are a people that has a cause that is fighting, resisting the occupation by all means, young and old, men and women. We have the international movement of solidarity with the Palestinians, we have as many as hundreds of non-Palestinians in that march that comes to support in solidarity with the Palestinians. Be it in Sheikh Jarrah, in Jerusalem, be it in Al- Ma'sarah be it in Beit Ummar, be it in Beit al Nalain, be it in all the places where we have resistance to the occupation. Our strategy is we will continue the resistance under all circumstances, no question about the cost of  this resistance, and our resistance is not only directly against the enemy in our home, we will follow the enemy in every place, we can encircle him, we can go over him, we can make him pay the price, to leave.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let me go back to the questioner. Did you hear anything in that answer, in any of these answers that has encouraged you?
AUDIENCE (F)
I found no answers, I wanted to say this so you guys go back home and at night, instead of sleeping as you usually do probably, think about this, think about what have you done to help us reach a greater day, or better.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, gentleman near the top.  You, yes.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hello, I'm Lebanese and I seriously regret the question I'm going to ask you. To what extent do you consider yourselves brothers if you've spent the last years fighting each other for power and you're both more loyal to external powers than to your own country and to your own population?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nabil Shaath would you like to take that?
NABIL SHAATH
I agree with you, I started this from the very beginning. The question is not which of us can win and who can lose, the question is whether we both, together, can form a unity so that we can win against the enemy. So long as there people here who still think which is better Hamas or Fatah, we have no way we can advance. The only way we can advance [is] if tomorrow we sign an agreement and the day after tomorrow we start implementing it. To my Lebanese sister here, I know, and I remember, how frustrating it must have been when the Lebanese were fighting each other and nobody was helping. It's very frustrating, the Israelis were occupying the south of Lebanon and the Lebanese were fighting each other and nobody cared and that is why I'm saying for Palestinians it's the same thing. The only people who are fighting the Israelis in Jerusalem are Jerusalemite Palestinians.   They are the people who are standing in Jerusalem, and at least by being there they deny the enemy the chance to take over their city. Nobody else is doing anything else about it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Nazzal you want to come in?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
I have one comment. The new generation in this hall are calling Palestinian leaders to reconciliation and Palestinian unity and I agree with them. But I want from them also to make pressure on Arab regimes, because Arab regimes are responsible for the situation of Palestinians. I give you example...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When are you going to take some responsibility? You blame everybody else, when are you going to take some responsibility?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, no, no, no.  You know, why Qatar can make an agreement among Lebanese groups? Why Qatar, and it is a small country, why Qatar can make an agreement amongst Sudanese people? This is the question, so I want from you to make pressure on Arab regimes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
How would you answer that? Let me go back to the questioner here.
AUDIENCE (M)
Well I think you both agree on the fact that you need to advance and to set up a common strategy that will fight Israel. But are you willing to step aside if your strategy, if your intention to have a common strategy failed during the last years, are you ready to step aside and let other people try?
NABIL SHAATH
Of course!
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you ready, is Hamas ready to step aside?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
You know, under the convention agreement we have the right to resist occupation, Zionist occupation. Nobody can stop the resistance against the Zionist occupation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Nazzal that wasn't the question. Will you step aside if you fail? Will you step aside and allow somebody else to take over?
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, no, we can try.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think you had your answer. Osama Hamdan.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Well I have to say two words, first of all it's clear from what you are saying now that the only meaningful option against the occupation is the resistance. And it is a good step to reunite the Palestinians on a clear project. Resist the occupation, liberate your lands and people.  This is the first point...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Resist by what means?
OSAMA HAMDAN
By all the means, mainly by the militant resistance. This is the only way to show the occupation it costs him a lot. It happened in South Lebanon and it happened in Gaza and it will happen in every part of Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're calling for a full-scale return to violence, is that what you're calling for?
OSAMA HAMDAN
It's not violence, you have to understand it's not violence, it's a resistance.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Killing is not violence?
OSAMA HAMDAN
It happened in France during the Second World War against the Nazis.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That was violence too.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Okay it's a legitimate violence, it's not only violence, it's a legitimate violence because it's against the occupation. Every nation who suffers from occupation resisted that by militant way, if you did not do that you will lose your cause. This is the main point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I think your position is clear. Nabil Shaath.
NABIL SHAATH
I think a people has a right, always, whenever you are occupied militarily you have a right to fight militarily, that is your right. But it's also your right to choose the way you want to conduct your resistance against the enemy at any time because without that, you will be suicidal, and the Palestinian people are not suicidal, they want to live - in a free country, they want to liberate their country and live in it. They don't want to just die, they want to live like every free people in the world.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to take a question from the lady up there in the fifth row, yes you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi, my question's for the Fatah officials. One of your main criticisms against Hamas was that they refused to sign the treaty in Egypt.  Well, maybe that's because they see through the Egyptian government who's one of the second major recipients of the US financial aid, and maybe they didn't refuse it and will continue to refuse signing the treaty because Hosni Mubarak turned his back on the Gazans, and me, myself being a Gazan, see that as a betrayal from the Egyptian government. So, as opposed to signing the treaty in Egypt or in foreign lands, why not you, both of your parties sit together in a unified room in Palestine where these issues are happening and sign it together, as opposed to looking for foreign people to help you sign those treaties?
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Abdullah Abdullah.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
The signing of the treaty is not only for the Egyptians.  Signing of the treaty, paper, it's for us and we met, as Palestinians, twice, all thirteen Palestinian groups, but we met as Fatah and Hamas seven times. Still the paper's there, when it is signed it is not signed and the credit is given to the Egyptians.  We want to sign it for our own sake so we can work together, we can strengthen our national front, we can strengthen the steadfastness of our people, we can even escalate the resistance of our people instead of being in seven, eight places it could be ten, twelve. We can even go beyond that and work, and nobody can come to us as an excuse saying: "What can we do for you Palestinians? You cannot manage your own affairs, you go back and unite yourselves". This is why we need it now, we need it yesterday in fact before it is today, and that's for our own sake.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what would you say to Hamas to get them to sign?
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
We tell them: look, the land is ours, the cause is ours, if we are not united together you will never win by yourself, we will never win by ourselves, but at least we can work together hand in hand to advance our cause.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Nazzal.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Some people are angry, they are asking Palestinians after several times and after a few months of talking - they didn't reach an agreement. I want to ask them, after twenty years of talking between Israel and Palestinians, and till this moment they didn't reach an agreement.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
We are not enemies, we are family. That's the difference.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
Please. With your family you can't be patient for one or two years, but with your enemy you can be patient for more than twenty years. I want from you, I want from brother Nabil Shaath and Abdullah Abdullah...
NABIL SHAATH
There is no need to spend twenty years.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
No, no, I need from you to spend one year, maximum. Are you patient?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Osama Hamdan, over to you.
OSAMA HAMDAN
I have to say yes, we are family, and we are ready to host the dialogue and the signature in Gaza.   Our brother Dr. Nabil Shaath visited Gaza and discovered that the people there are still his family and Mr. Ismail Haniyeh received him, he talks to him frankly, clearly and I believe we can do that in Gaza. Why not in Ramallah? Because there is an occupation, we can't go there, but we can manage that in Gaza, I think we can manage it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you think the Fatah supporters in your jail think of you as family?
OSAMA HAMDAN
There is no Fatah supporters, I have to say something about this issue. We're criticised [for] arresting anyone for his political views, and we suggested during the dialogue to form a committee from Hamas, Fatah, some Palestinian organisations for the human rights and an Egyptian side, so they can investigate all the situation...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you had plenty of Fatah supporters in your jails.
OSAMA HAMDAN
No, not plenty, you can't give a number.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nabil Shaath, are they there or not?
OSAMA HAMDAN
Nabil Shaath knows the number exactly, you are talking about less than tens of those and we are rejecting arresting the people according to their political beliefs. We said let's establish this committee, if they said he was arrested because of political reasons he will be freed directly, if it was for criminal reasons he will go to the court, but the one who rejected that was not Hamas.

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Ladies and gentlemen we have come to the point where I'm going to ask you to pick up your voting machines and vote on the question: "Do you have confidence in the current Palestinian leaders?" All right, the result is, 11 percent, 11 percent have confidence in the Palestinian leaders, 89 percent do not. A brief comment from our speakers before we depart. A massive vote of no confidence Nabil Shaath?
NABIL SHAATH
No, I think the climate is very clearly what it voted, and I think you have to consider in the Arabic, the Islamic recognition here, you are responsible, we are your people and if you want better governments you have to be better yourself in order that you will become the governors and you will become better.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Abdullah Abdullah, very briefly, one sentence please, we're running out of time.
ABDULLAH ABDULLAH
Leadership doesn't come by parachute, leadership is won by hard work in the field for the cause of the people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Osama Hamdan, briefly, one sentence please.
OSAMA HAMDAN
Briefly I think it's a tricky question because if you support resistance you will not vote for the people who are negotiating with Israel, and vice versa, so you can't put them together and ask them the question if you trust them all.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Mohammad Nazzal.
MOHAMMAD NAZZAL
First of all I respect the result, because this is the opinion of the people here. Secondly I don't know what do you mean by leadership? Do you mean the PA, Palestinian? Because now we are, according to our brothers we are outside of the PA.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Palestinian leaders, it meant all of them. Thank you very much, thank you to all our speakers in fact. And thank you very much to you the audience for your questions.