Doha Debates Special Event with senior Hamas official, Dr. Mahmoud Al Zahar

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to this Doha Debates Special Event coming to you from the Gulf State of Qatar and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. Depending on where you sit, the Palestinian group Hamas is either an Islamic resistance movement or a bunch of terrorists dedicated to the destruction of Israel. The Israelis say they won't talk to anyone who doesn't recognise their right to exist. Hamas says it won't even consider recognising that right until Israel decides on its borders. Talks of course do go on below the surface through intermediaries, but are there any real prospects of success? My guest today is by training a surgeon, and he's a senior official in Hamas. He served briefly as Foreign Minister in the government that emerged two years ago. At the time, he told an interviewer, 'Palestine means Palestine in its entirety. We cannot give up a single inch of it, therefore we will not recognise the Israeli enemy's right to a single inch.'

TIM SEBASTIAN
Mahmoud Zahar, welcome to the Doha Debates.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Welcome.
TIM SEBASTIAN
According to Israel, in the first five months of this year, you had launched 1,950 rockets and mortars which Human Rights Watch called 'a serious violation of international humanitarian law'. Do you care about that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Of course we care about that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So why do you go on doing it then?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
But we have to read the page from the beginning, this is one page. The page means one quarter of the Palestinian people practise the phenomena of imprisonment, one quarter of the Palestinians ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, but I'm talking about the methods that you use here. We'll get on to some of the background but I'm asking you about the methods that you use described as a serious violation of international humanitarian law.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, I'm speaking about imprisonment without reason is also violation of the human rights. The second point ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you saying that two wrongs make a right then?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, we are defending ourselves, we failed to achieve our basic demands so we resorted, we ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What kind of defence is this?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We have spent two intifada, peaceful intifada demonstration, what's happened? In one moment they deported 418 in Lebanon. They killed in the first intifada 8,000 Palestinians, now 100,000 Palestinian people are deeply injured, so this is the cause of the self-defence you describe it by...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You call this self-defence, indiscriminate attacks against civilian areas in Israel, you don't care who you killed, do you?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, we care but we are citizens ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why do you care, you've never apologised for any civilians that have been hit, have you?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
What happened in the other side, nobody from the Israelis is ready to apologise about taking our land.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I talked to the Israelis about what they do, I'm asking you about things that you do.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am here, I can't separate our issue from the Israeli issue.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You can't ...
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I can't separate the reaction of the Palestinian people from the action of the Israelis.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're saying you're not responsible for your actions then?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, we are responsible about every step, but we are, the other side would justify morally what happened for the Palestinian people, I told you, 8,000 Palestinian people, 100 casualties ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And do you think that makes it okay for you to kill indiscriminately and launch 1,950 rockets and mortars against Israel in civilian areas?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It is not like that. By the way, how the Israeli can justify attacking me personally and my family twice ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're not answering my question, Dr. Zahar, you're not answering my question.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am answering your question but ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, you're not.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
... killing innocent people while they are living in their houses, this is justified, this is moral? This is not a violation? When they killed my son, he just got a master's degree from Stanford University and he spent only one week in the university in Gaza as a teacher when they killed him.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I understand and I wouldn't for a moment minimise your loss, but you're being accused of exactly the same thing that you are accusing the Israelis of, indiscriminate civilian attacks. When in March, when eight people were killed and eleven injured in an attack on a Jerusalem religious school, your group said, 'We bless the operation. It will not be the last.'
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, the question was ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You said, 'We bless the operation.'
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
... we understand what happened there because in four days, when they described this as a holocaust, a Palestinian holocaust, they killed in four days 130. One-third of them are children and the other third are women. They demolished houses, they destroyed everything in our life.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, you talk about killing. Thanks in large part to Hamas, last year was the first time since 1967 when more Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians than by Israel.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, Israel was behind that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They were behind your seizure, of Gaza?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Because now Israel is responsible about what is happening in Palestine. Now they are depriving us from the essentials.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, in June last year during the eight days of your seizure of Gaza, 161 Palestinians were killed including 41 civilians.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Why, why? I will tell you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you mean why? Why, because of the fighting between you and Fatah, that's why, because of your fighting.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I think you have, I have to address why. Give me a chance to address why.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why, because you wanted to seize power in Gaza, that's clear.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Because we won the election. When we represented the majority, when we got 80 seats out of 132, they refused the democracy, they refused to establish a government, they started sanction and embezzlement.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you went on a killing spree instead.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, it is not. They resorted to military action, they took weapons from some Arabic and from the Israelis in order to make an end for the existence of the legal government so in this case of self-defence, they defeated, so that was the cause.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who's the enemy, who's the enemy when after your actions, 161 Palestinians are dead, 41 civilians in the fighting, you share no guilt in this?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Of course we are ashamed for all the Palestinian people, but we have to understand the cause was Fatah decided to make an end by military activities against Hamas. For this reason, in a case of self-defence, we resorted to self-defence.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Self-defence. According to Human Rights Watch, you engaged, along with Fatah, you engaged in torturing, summarily executing captured and incapacitated fighters including inside hospitals.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, this is not correct, this is not correct. What's happening in Ramallah now is these items can happen ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
'Both the Qassam brigades which you control and the Hamas affiliated executive force have reportedly engaged in torture and inhumane and degrading treatment of detainees during interrogation.'
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no. It is not correct.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So they're all wrong, are they?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Why you are forgetting that 16 foreigners including Alan Johnston were kidnapped during the previous era and we succeeded to set them free. Why you are not speaking about making a very important ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nobody said that wasn't important but I'm talking about going into hospitals and summarily executing injured prisoners. You never did that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
That was not from Hamas, that was from the other side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You say categorically, well, you're accused, both sides are accused of doing that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, if they are accused, on both sides, that's...
TIM SEBASTIAN
They are accusing both sides, you're happy about that then?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I'm not happy, no, we are not happy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You are telling me categorically that you have not engaged in human rights abuses? None?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, who will be happy to abuse human rights?
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're doing it, according to Human Rights Watch, you're doing it.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I told you, when we are the government, they started to (inaudible) by Condoleezza Rice, the constructive course, what is the constructive course? They resorted to guns, came from outside in order to attack Hamas and to make an end for their existence. You can see a picture from my house, thousands of bullets including four RBGs. That's one example.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, people are looking at the kind of methods that you employ and wondering, 'Is this the kind of state that you want to build in the Palestinian territory.' It's a state based on torture, of summary executions, kidnappings.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, of course not, because we resorted to the election and the problem started ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You also resorted to these things, according to very good documentation from an independent human rights organisation.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
They gave us no chance in order to implement.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're admitting that you did these things?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, we are, nobody is happy but we were forced to defend the legitimacy of the Palestinian people, the will of the Palestinian people, represented by the last election.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you defended the will of the Palestinian people by leaving 161 Palestinians dead in eight days of fighting during your seizure of Gaza. That is in the interests of the Palestinian people?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Before that hundreds Palestinian people killed, imprisoned ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So an extra 160 doesn't make any difference.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
By these sacrifices from both sides, we reached to make an end for all the security dilemma. Now Gaza is very secure.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So the solution is more killing, you're telling me?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, the solution is to stop killing, but when you are forced to use the military activities, you have to defend yourself.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Isn't it true that Arab countries are now losing patience with you? Syria is now negotiating directly with Israel without even bothering to tell you.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, the Palestinian people started negotiations with the Israelis in Madrid Conference, 1992. What happened? They spent more than two decades wasting our time, they are confiscating our land, expansion of the settlement on the expense of our holy places.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm talking about the situation now.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
The situation ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... now is that the Arab governments are losing patience with you.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am not accepting to start reading the last page in the book. We started negotiations with the Israeli, Abu Omar and Abu Mazen continued their meeting with Olmert and the previous administration, and they brought for us big zero. What happened by the negotiation? We resorted to the military activities as a resistance, as any country, as Mr. de Gaulle resorted to military activities against Nazi occupation, as everybody in Algeria and in Egypt in order to make an end for the occupation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And in the process you're moving ever closer to Iran. The State Department said last month that Iran has provided you with extensive funding, training and weapons. Is that true?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We got money from every Arab country, I can give you names.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Funding, training and weapons.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, weapons, that's a fabricated story.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why is it a fabricated story?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
They are speaking about Iran is sending weapons to Hamas. I think anybody will read the map will understand it is a fabricated story.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why, why? They can't come through the tunnels in Egypt, the way you get a lot of your weapons, through secret tunnels in Egypt?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, from Iran they have to pass either through Israel or to pass through Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Egypt, so all these borders are open?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are you getting your weapons from then? Egypt, Yemen?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It is, it is brought from the ex-Palestinian Authority, that used it against Hamas, against the legitimacy of the Palestinian people, against their own people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're engaged, aren't you, Mahmoud Zahar, in the largest build-up in the history of Hamas, the largest build-up of weapons, aren't you? Not just rockets but we're looking at anti-tank devices and road-side bombs as well. You're building up your arms as never before, aren't you?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
And you are forgetting F16 and you are forgetting ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No but let me come to the point of this question.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
... nuclear bombs in Israel, 200 atomic bombs are built in Israel and you are speaking about small ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me come to the point of the question which is, if you are engaged in this arms build-up, how seriously can we take the discussions about a truce, a truce that you are holding with Egypt as an intermediary at the moment, how seriously can those discussions be taken?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
If anybody has a magic solution to minimise our suffering and to stop the Israeli incursion, and to make an end for the Israeli invasion, the destruction of our people and killing everybody by ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you ready for a truce? Are you ready for a truce?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are looking for a truce but this would be justice, it should be a fair truce. We already signed Oslo agreement, what happened after that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you ready to guarantee that you won't smuggle weapons into Gaza during the truce, are you ready to guarantee that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are ready, we are ready to stop all the action and reaction from both sides ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you answer that particular question?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, I'm speaking, this is part of the question. If the Israeli are willing to stop their aggression, we are going to stop our reaction, and at that time we'll be committed and that's what will happen. When Mr. Omar Suleiman met all the Palestinian leadership and we said we are ready to stop all these activities if the Israelis stopped their aggression and ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just be clear about this. If there is a cessation of hostilities, then you will stop smuggling arms into Gaza.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
If they stop, all the cessation of their activities, all the Palestinian factions agreed to stop all the reaction including the illegal activities against Israel. If anything is illegal ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Including building up your arms by smuggling arms in, including that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Why should we not build up our arms?
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what's the point of a truce if you're still building up your arms?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Give me one country, one state in the world that they are ready to stop restrengthening themselves after longstanding suffering.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, you either commit to peaceful means or you don't, or the truce doesn't mean anything.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Where is the peace, where is the peace? Give me a sign of peace. This is what happened at Oslo, it was ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're telling me the truce negotiations are not going to go anywhere.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
From us?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It's from the Israeli side. We want ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but from your point of view, tell me, are you going to get a truce or not? Are you serious about getting a truce?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, we are serious. I visited Egypt in the last two months eight times, in El Arish, in Raffah and in Egypt, and we are looking for a truce, but the Israelis now are asking for their security and closing the border for milk, for drugs, for electricity, for oil, for things. The Palestinian people now has no chance to have shoes, clothing, drugs, and now they have no chance to go to their hospital because there is no oil. Nobody is speaking about that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The Palestinian people, thanks to you and Fatah, are badly divided. They're fighting a civil war as well as another war, aren't they, and you're making no effort to end either the civil war or the other war with Israel, isn't that the fact, you just want to build up your weapons?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Nobody is admiring this because I personally spent five weeks ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's a failure, isn't it, when the Palestinians are fighting each other, it's a huge failure, isn't it?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I'm asking them in order to participate in the national conference, and we went to Mecca and we signed an agreement already on ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... which failed.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
By Fatah.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They blame you.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, we give them all the ministries, we established a national unity government.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What is going to heal the divisions between you, Hamas, and Fatah?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are ready for reconciliation from the beginning, and now I'm ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
What are the conditions, what conditions?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Without condition, without condition. Come, discuss our internal issue, prevent the interference of the Israeli and Mr. (inaudible) who is bringing money, weapons, and bringing people even from outside in order to suppress and oppress the Palestinian people in the West Bank.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to throw the questions open to the audience in a moment, but are you ever going to recognise the right of Israel to exist?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Israel is ready to recognise the right of the Palestinian people to exist, this should be answered. What type of Israel we have to recognise? What is the border of Israel? To occupy the Golan Heights? What is the constitution of Israel that defines the state? Give me the reason for the people who recognise Israel to exist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is it possible that you, Hamas, will recognise the right of Israel to exist, in the future, in the future?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We have multiple question, should be answered first by the Israeli, and after that I'm going to answer this question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you can't give me an answer?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Because we have no answer from the Israeli side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. And you're not giving me an answer either. So it's a stale-mate.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I have no problems with you. My problem is with Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. We're going to throw this open to the audience.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Thank you.

AUDIENCE Q (M)
Dr. Zahar do you think the world, the rest of the world, the rest of the countries, can help bring peace about within the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and what do they need to do to help achieve this peace?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I think in this situation and in the present administration in America in particular, I think peace will not be achieved, because to support Israel by all means and to suppress the Palestinian people by all means, this is injustice. Implementation of justice in the question of Palestine will bring peace, but now they are not looking for peace, they are looking for some accords here and there, security accord, political accord, on the expense of the Palestinian people, while the settlement is expanding, confiscating now more than 16% of the West Bank area. In the last discussion between Abu Mazen and the Israeli side, now they are ready to give the Palestinian people only 15% from the whole Palestine. Is it fair? Is it the basis, is it the moral basis ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
The question was about what other countries could do in the region.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
What countries?
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's asking about the other countries in the region, what other countries? Which one did you have in mind?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We have a good relations with Egypt, we have a good relation with other countries. We tried to use them to help us but we failed, because the interference of America directly, and I will give you a remarkable example. We went to Sanaa and we signed with them an agreement. What happened? After one minute, Ramallah refused the agreement signed by one of the remarkable figures in Fatah, Azzam al-Ahmed, so the interference of the foreigners, the Israeli and the American is responsible and was responsible of our absence of peace.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You haven't had much help from the Arab governments either, have you?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes. We already got $55 million per month for the Palestinian Authority, that was a summit decision, summit conference decision.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You get more money from the European Union, for the Palestinian Authority.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, for Gaza no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
For the West Bank you get more money.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, they got, one of the manifestations of the absence of justice, Gaza is more poor than the West Bank and they are giving money for the West Bank and they are neglecting Gaza.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thanks to you it's more dangerous as well, isn't it?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, that's your concept.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, the lady in the fifth row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I was wondering about the Lebanese. The Lebanese have civil war like clockwork and yet this time we didn't hold our breaths for long before we had a resolution. I was just wondering instead of playing 'he said/she said', why don't you think of a better idea than 'they did' or 'we did' or 'we should.' Do you think that there's a resolution, I mean, if Lebanon did it, can't you?
TIM SEBASTIAN
If Lebanon was able to resolve its problems, can't you, instead of going 'he said/she said' and 'he said', 'they said,' instead of playing that game.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay. We are happy for Lebanon to reach this degree because they got good experience for our experience. What happened in Lebanon is the same case that happened in Palestine. The interference of the foreigners, especially the American administration, pushed the Lebanese people to the degree of real confrontation. They at the critical point reached to an agreement. We tried that before. We went to Mecca and signed an agreement before the critical point, but the other side went and passed and they started to shoot the Palestinian other side reaching to this dilemma. So I think it's good for Lebanese, it is bad for the Palestinian people but it is good for the Palestinian people to come back, to reconciliate and to reach a final solidification of the Palestinian people against the enemy.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
I think you wanted to come back on that, didn't you?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes but you just did the 'he said/she said' again. And why would you be happy for the Lebanese people and not for ...
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I can't neglect that because this is history. If I'm going to depend in my generation, I'm speaking about the experience happened in the last events, so I am going to address many times 'she said' and this we did and we said, I'm going to.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But there's a difference between history and accountability.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I think it is very easy for Ramallah to come to meet Hamas in Gaza. By the way, Hamas is very strong in Ramallah, and the last election in Gaza and Ramallah indicated that 80 seats out of 152 from Gaza and Ramallah are in favour of Hamas. By the way, 41 of Hamas member legislative council are at present in the Israeli jail, and five ex-ministers are at present in Israeli jail. Let them set them free and we are ready to reach a reconciliation.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Well, I'm sorry, you're all talk and no action.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
If the United States intervention in the Middle East balances, what will that do to the Middle East and will that create peace in the Middle East, if the United States intervention miraculously balances?
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you mean, 'balances'?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Balances by, towards Israel, its interaction with Israel and interaction with Palestine, if that balances, aid and certain things, that balances, with that change will that create peace in the Middle East?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I will address the last speech of Mr. Abu Mazen, when he expressed his feeling as disappointed by the speech delivered of Mr. Bush, and the last meeting in Knesset. That is one of the remarkable examples about how the American administration is not balanced, they are not balanced, in dealing with a very complicated issue called the Palestinian/ Israeli confrontation. If the international community are going to accept implementation of justice and to be a neutral side, we can reach into a peace process, real peace process in the Middle East, not only between Israel and the Palestinian but also in the region, because after signing agreement for many decades with Egypt, nobody in Egypt on the popular level is ready to recognise, to normalise his relation with the Israeli because of their aggression against the Palestinian, against the Lebanese and threatening the security of the region including Syria and occupying Iraq, Afghanistan, disturbing the stability of Somalia and a lot of aggression in the area.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to take a question from the lady in the second row there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. I just wanted to know, is there a chance for Hamas and Fatah to reconcile and what are they doing to achieve that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, there is a good chance, but I think we are in need to wait for six months. After the absence of the present American administration, if there is change in the American policy, we are going to achieve reconciliation in one sitting.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And what kind of change are you looking for from an American administration, a new one?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am not really interested who will be the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but you say you can't deal with the present one.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, I mean, changing the administration means the style of dealing with the question, the people to be neutral, this is the change that we are hoping for. Change the big support for Israel at the expense of the Palestinian people.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
Do you want to come back on that at all? What do you think about the infighting among the Palestinian groups, Fatah and Hamas?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I think that's very inhumane and they're killing people for no reason, that's what I think, so I don't think, there's no chance for them to reconcile because their differences are too different and each one of them are fighting for their own cause and not for the Palestinians' cause, that's what I think.
TIM SEBASTIAN
She doesn't think you're fighting for the Palestinians.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I agree with you, but we have to understand that some people believed by military activities they think they can make an end for the result of the last election, and I think in the Vanity Fair published everything about the conspiracy between remarkable leaders in Fatah on the other side in order to dismantle the result of the election. If we implemented really democracy and if we accepted the result of democracy regardless the result, I think we can achieve reconciliation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I should point out that this is an audience which voted a few weeks ago by a margin of 70% that Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemy. You may want to know that, for your background.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, we are not happy about the present situation. As I told you, we signed with them, at least four agreements, in Cairo in March 2005, the prisoner proposal, Mecca Agreement, Sanaa Agreement, all these and others, they are not accepting reconciliation. They believe that America is going to give them an independent state.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You blame them and they blame you. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the third row.

AUDIENCE Q (M)
Dr. Zahar do you think the world, the rest of the world, the rest of the countries, can help bring peace about within the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and what do they need to do to help achieve this peace?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I think in this situation and in the present administration in America in particular, I think peace will not be achieved, because to support Israel by all means and to suppress the Palestinian people by all means, this is injustice. Implementation of justice in the question of Palestine will bring peace, but now they are not looking for peace, they are looking for some accords here and there, security accord, political accord, on the expense of the Palestinian people, while the settlement is expanding, confiscating now more than 16% of the West Bank area. In the last discussion between Abu Mazen and the Israeli side, now they are ready to give the Palestinian people only 15% from the whole Palestine. Is it fair? Is it the basis, is it the moral basis ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
The question was about what other countries could do in the region.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
What countries?
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's asking about the other countries in the region, what other countries? Which one did you have in mind?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We have a good relations with Egypt, we have a good relation with other countries. We tried to use them to help us but we failed, because the interference of America directly, and I will give you a remarkable example. We went to Sanaa and we signed with them an agreement. What happened? After one minute, Ramallah refused the agreement signed by one of the remarkable figures in Fatah, Azzam al-Ahmed, so the interference of the foreigners, the Israeli and the American is responsible and was responsible of our absence of peace.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You haven't had much help from the Arab governments either, have you?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes. We already got $55 million per month for the Palestinian Authority, that was a summit decision, summit conference decision.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You get more money from the European Union, for the Palestinian Authority.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, for Gaza no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
For the West Bank you get more money.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, they got, one of the manifestations of the absence of justice, Gaza is more poor than the West Bank and they are giving money for the West Bank and they are neglecting Gaza.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thanks to you it's more dangerous as well, isn't it?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, that's your concept.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, the lady in the fifth row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I was wondering about the Lebanese. The Lebanese have civil war like clockwork and yet this time we didn't hold our breaths for long before we had a resolution. I was just wondering instead of playing 'he said/she said', why don't you think of a better idea than 'they did' or 'we did' or 'we should.' Do you think that there's a resolution, I mean, if Lebanon did it, can't you?
TIM SEBASTIAN
If Lebanon was able to resolve its problems, can't you, instead of going 'he said/she said' and 'he said', 'they said,' instead of playing that game.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay. We are happy for Lebanon to reach this degree because they got good experience for our experience. What happened in Lebanon is the same case that happened in Palestine. The interference of the foreigners, especially the American administration, pushed the Lebanese people to the degree of real confrontation. They at the critical point reached to an agreement. We tried that before. We went to Mecca and signed an agreement before the critical point, but the other side went and passed and they started to shoot the Palestinian other side reaching to this dilemma. So I think it's good for Lebanese, it is bad for the Palestinian people but it is good for the Palestinian people to come back, to reconciliate and to reach a final solidification of the Palestinian people against the enemy.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
I think you wanted to come back on that, didn't you?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes but you just did the 'he said/she said' again. And why would you be happy for the Lebanese people and not for ...
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I can't neglect that because this is history. If I'm going to depend in my generation, I'm speaking about the experience happened in the last events, so I am going to address many times 'she said' and this we did and we said, I'm going to.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
But there's a difference between history and accountability.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I think it is very easy for Ramallah to come to meet Hamas in Gaza. By the way, Hamas is very strong in Ramallah, and the last election in Gaza and Ramallah indicated that 80 seats out of 152 from Gaza and Ramallah are in favour of Hamas. By the way, 41 of Hamas member legislative council are at present in the Israeli jail, and five ex-ministers are at present in Israeli jail. Let them set them free and we are ready to reach a reconciliation.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Well, I'm sorry, you're all talk and no action.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
If the United States intervention in the Middle East balances, what will that do to the Middle East and will that create peace in the Middle East, if the United States intervention miraculously balances?
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you mean, 'balances'?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Balances by, towards Israel, its interaction with Israel and interaction with Palestine, if that balances, aid and certain things, that balances, with that change will that create peace in the Middle East?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I will address the last speech of Mr. Abu Mazen, when he expressed his feeling as disappointed by the speech delivered of Mr. Bush, and the last meeting in Knesset. That is one of the remarkable examples about how the American adminis tration is not balanced, they are not balanced, in dealing with a very complicated issue called the Palestinian/ Israeli confrontation. If the international community are going to accept implementation of justice and to be a neutral side, we can reach into a peace process, real peace process in the Middle East, not only between Israel and the Palestinian but also in the region, because after signing agreement for many decades with Egypt, nobody in Egypt on the popular level is ready to recognise, to normalise his relation with the Israeli because of their aggression against the Palestinian, against the Lebanese and threatening the security of the region including Syria and occupying Iraq, Afghanistan, disturbing the stability of Somalia and a lot of aggression in the area.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to take a question from the lady in the second row there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. I just wanted to know, is there a chance for Hamas and Fatah to reconcile and what are they doing to achieve that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, there is a good chance, but I think we are in need to wait for six months. After the absence of the present American administration, if there is change in the American policy, we are going to achieve reconciliation in one sitting.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And what kind of change are you looking for from an American administration, a new one?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am not really interested who will be the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but you say you can't deal with the present one.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, I mean, changing the administration means the style of dealing with the question, the people to be neutral, this is the change that we are hoping for. Change the big support for Israel at the expense of the Palestinian people.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
Do you want to come back on that at all? What do you think about the infighting among the Palestinian groups, Fatah and Hamas?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I think that's very inhumane and they're killing people for no reason, that's what I think, so I don't think, there's no chance for them to reconcile because their differences are too different and each one of them are fighting for their own cause and not for the Palestinians' cause, that's what I think.
TIM SEBASTIAN
She doesn't think you're fighting for the Palestinians.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I agree with you, but we have to understand that some people believed by military activities they think they can make an end for the result of the last election, and I think in the Vanity Fair published everything about the conspiracy between remarkable leaders in Fatah on the other side in order to dismantle the result of the election. If we implemented really democracy and if we accepted the result of democracy regardless the result, I think we can achieve reconciliation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I should point out that this is an audience which voted a few weeks ago by a margin of 70% that Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemy. You may want to know that, for your background.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, we are not happy about the present situation. As I told you, we signed with them, at least four agreements, in Cairo in March 2005, the prisoner proposal, Mecca Agreement, Sanaa Agreement, all these and others, they are not accepting reconciliation. They believe that America is going to give them an independent state.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You blame them and they blame you. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the third row.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, you talk about killing. Thanks in large part to Hamas, last year was the first time since 1967 when more Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians than by Israel.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, Israel was behind that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They were behind your seizure, of Gaza?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Because now Israel is responsible about what is happening in Palestine. Now they are depriving us from the essentials.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, in June last year during the eight days of your seizure of Gaza, 161 Palestinians were killed including 41 civilians.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Why, why? I will tell you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you mean why? Why, because of the fighting between you and Fatah, that's why, because of your fighting.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I think you have, I have to address why. Give me a chance to address why.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why, because you wanted to seize power in Gaza, that's clear.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Because we won the election. When we represented the majority, when we got 80 seats out of 132, they refused the democracy, they refused to establish a government, they started sanction and embezzlement.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you went on a killing spree instead.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, it is not. They resorted to military action, they took weapons from some Arabic and from the Israelis in order to make an end for the existence of the legal government so in this case of self-defence, they defeated, so that was the cause.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who's the enemy, who's the enemy when after your actions, 161 Palestinians are dead, 41 civilians in the fighting, you share no guilt in this?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Of course we are ashamed for all the Palestinian people, but we have to understand the cause was Fatah decided to make an end by military activities against Hamas. For this reason, in a case of self-defence, we resorted to self-defence.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Self-defence. According to Human Rights Watch, you engaged, along with Fatah, you engaged in torturing, summarily executing captured and incapacitated fighters including inside hospitals.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, this is not correct, this is not correct. What's happening in Ramallah now is these items can happen …
TIM SEBASTIAN
'Both the Qassam brigades which you control and the Hamas affiliated executive force have reportedly engaged in torture and inhumane and degrading treatment of detainees during interrogation.'
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no. It is not correct.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So they're all wrong, are they?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Why you are forgetting that 16 foreigners including Alan Johnston were kidnapped during the previous era and we succeeded to set them free. Why you are not speaking about making a very important …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nobody said that wasn't important but I'm talking about going into hospitals and summarily executing injured prisoners. You never did that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
That was not from Hamas, that was from the other side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You say categorically, well, you're accused, both sides are accused of doing that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, if they are accused, on both sides, that's…
TIM SEBASTIAN
They are accusing both sides, you're happy about that then?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I'm not happy, no, we are not happy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You are telling me categorically that you have not engaged in human rights abuses? None?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, who will be happy to abuse human rights?
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're doing it, according to Human Rights Watch, you're doing it.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I told you, when we are the government, they started to (inaudible) by Condoleezza Rice, the constructive course, what is the constructive course? They resorted to guns, came from outside in order to attack Hamas and to make an end for their existence. You can see a picture from my house, thousands of bullets including four RBGs. That's one example.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, people are looking at the kind of methods that you employ and wondering, 'Is this the kind of state that you want to build in the Palestinian territory.' It's a state based on torture, of summary executions, kidnappings.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, of course not, because we resorted to the election and the problem started …
TIM SEBASTIAN
You also resorted to these things, according to very good documentation from an independent human rights organisation.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
They gave us no chance in order to implement.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're admitting that you did these things?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, we are, nobody is happy but we were forced to defend the legitimacy of the Palestinian people, the will of the Palestinian people, represented by the last election.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you defended the wi ll of the Palestinian people by leaving 161 Palestinians dead in eight days of fighting during your seizure of Gaza. That is in the interests of the Palestinian people?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Before that hundreds Palestinian people killed, imprisoned …
TIM SEBASTIAN
So an extra 160 doesn't make any difference.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
By these sacrifices from both sides, we reached to make an end for all the security dilemma. Now Gaza is very secure.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So the solution is more killing, you're telling me?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, the solution is to stop killing, but when you are forced to use the military activities, you have to defend yourself.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Isn't it true that Arab countries are now losing patience with you? Syria is now negotiating directly with Israel without even bothering to tell you.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, the Palestinian people started negotiations with the Israelis in Madrid Conference, 1992. What happened? They spent more than two decades wasting our time, they are confiscating our land, expansion of the settlement on the expense of our holy places.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm talking about the situation now.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
The situation …
TIM SEBASTIAN
… now is that the Arab governments are losing patience with you.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am not accepting to start reading the last page in the book. We started negotiations with the Israeli, Abu Omar and Abu Mazen continued their meeting with Olmert and the previous administration, and they brought for us big zero. What happened by the negotiation? We resorted to the military activities as a resistance, as any country, as Mr. de Gaulle resorted to military activities against Nazi occupation, as everybody in Algeria and in Egypt in order to make an end for the occupation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And in the process you're moving ever closer to Iran. The State Department said last month that Iran has provided you with extensive funding, training and weapons. Is that true?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We got money from every Arab country, I can give you names.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Funding, training and weapons.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, weapons, that's a fabricated story.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why is it a fabricated story?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
They are speaking about Iran is sending weapons to Hamas. I think anybody will read the map will understand it is a fabricated story.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why, why? They can't come through the tunnels in Egypt, the way you get a lot of your weapons, through secret tunnels in Egypt?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, from Iran they have to pass either through Israel or to pass through Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Egypt, so all these borders are open?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are you getting your weapons from then? Egypt, Yemen?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It is, it is brought from the ex-Palestinian Authority, that used it against Hamas, against the legitimacy of the Palestinian people, against their own people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're engaged, aren't you, Mahmoud Zahar, in the largest build-up in the history of Hamas, the largest build-up of weapons, aren't you? Not just rockets but we're looking at anti-tank devices and road-side bombs as well. You're building up your arms as never before, aren't you?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
And you are forgetting F16 and you are forgetting …
TIM SEBASTIAN
No but let me come to the point of this question.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
… nuclear bombs in Israel, 200 atomic bombs are built in Israel and you are speaking about small …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me come to the point of the question which is, if you are engaged in this arms build-up, how seriously can we take the discussions about a truce, a truce that you are holding with Egypt as an intermediary at the moment, how seriously can those discussions be taken?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
If anybody has a magic solution to minimise our suffering and to stop the Israeli incursion, and to make an end for the Israeli invasion, the destruction of our people and killing everybody by …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you ready for a truce? Are you ready for a truce?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are looking for a truce but this would be justice, it should be a fair truce. We already signed Oslo agreement, what happened after that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you ready to guarantee that you won't smuggle weapons into Gaza during the truce, are you ready to guarantee that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are ready, we are ready to stop all the action and reaction from both sides …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you answer that particular question?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, I'm speaking, this is part of the question. If the Israeli are willing to stop their aggression, we are going to stop our reaction, and at that time we'll be committed and that's what will happen. When Mr. Omar Suleiman met all the Palestinian leadership and we said we are ready to stop all these activities if the Israelis stopped their aggression and …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just be clear about this. If there is a cessation of hostilities, then you will stop smuggling arms into Gaza.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
If they stop, all the cessation of their activities, all the Palestinian factions agreed to stop all the reaction including the illegal activities against Israel. If anything is illegal …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Including building up your arms by smuggling arms in, including that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Why should we not build up our arms?
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what's the point of a truce if you're still building up your arms?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Give me one country, one state in the world that they are rea dy to stop restrengthening themselves after longstanding suffering.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, you either commit to peaceful means or you don't, or the truce doesn't mean anything.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Where is the peace, where is the peace? Give me a sign of peace. This is what happened at Oslo, it was …
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're telling me the truce negotiations are not going to go anywhere.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
From us?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It's from the Israeli side. We want …
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but from your point of view, tell me, are you going to get a truce or not? Are you serious about getting a truce?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Yes, we are serious. I visited Egypt in the last two months eight times, in El Arish, in Raffah and in Egypt, and we are looking for a truce, but the Israelis now are asking for their security and closing the border for milk, for drugs, for electricity, for oil, for things. The Palestinian people now has no chance to have shoes, clothing, drugs, and now they have no chance to go to their hospital because there is no oil. Nobody is speaking about that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The Palestinian people, thanks to you and Fatah, are badly divided. They're fighting a civil war as well as another war, aren't they, and you're making no effort to end either the civil war or the other war with Israel, isn't that the fact, you just want to build up your weapons?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Nobody is admiring this because I personally spent five weeks …
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's a failure, isn't it, when the Palestinians are fighting each other, it's a huge failure, isn't it?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I'm asking them in order to participate in the national conference, and we went to Mecca and we signed an agreement already on …
TIM SEBASTIAN
… which failed.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
By Fatah.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They blame you.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, we give them all the ministries, we established a national unity government.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What is going to heal the divisions between you, Hamas, and Fatah?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are ready for reconciliation from the beginning, and now I'm …
TIM SEBASTIAN
What are the conditions, what conditions?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Without condition, without condition. Come, discuss our internal issue, prevent the interference of the Israeli and Mr. (inaudible) who is bringing money, weapons, and bringing people even from outside in order to suppress and oppress the Palestinian people in the West Bank.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to throw the questions open to the audience in a moment, but are you ever going to recognise the right of Israel to exist?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Israel is ready to recognise the right of the Palestinian people to exist, this should be answered. What type of Israel we have to recognise? What is the border of Israel? To occupy the Golan Heights? What is the constitution of Israel that defines the state? Give me the reason for the people who recognise Israel to exist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is it possible that you, Hamas, will recognise the right of Israel to exist, in the future, in the future?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We have multiple question, should be answered first by the Israeli, and after that I'm going to answer this question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you can't give me an answer?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Because we have no answer from the Israeli side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. And you're not giving me an answer either. So it's a stale-mate.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I have no problems with you. My problem is with Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. We're going to throw this open to the audience.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the front row, in the black suit, you sir.

AUDIENCE Q (M)
Point blank, what will it take for peace with Israel, what exactly are you looking for? If they go back to the 67 border, will that be it? I'm confused. What will it take for peace?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
This is an imaginary question, and because Israel is aggressing and America blessed that we should respect the present situation. The present situation means confiscation of all the land around Jerusalem. I will give you one example. What is called Ma'aleh Adumim settlement, its length is about 50 kilometres. Is Israel ready to withdraw from this area, which is part of the area occupied in 67? If they are ready to withdraw and to leave the settlement for the Palestinian people, I think the Palestinian people will think and we will think thoroughly about reaching with them some sort of either long-term road map or peace process, but in case of expansion of the settlement, confiscation of our right in the land and developed place, these imaginary questions should not be answered, because it will be on the expense of the Palestinian national interest.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It wasn't an imaginary question, it was a question about what it would take to get peace, and you've just answered, some of it. Is that your main condition, to withdraw from the settlements and return to the pre-67 borders?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It is not a main condition. Now ask the Israeli imaginary question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but we're asking you, what does it take from your point of view?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am asking in public the Israeli, are they ready to leave every inch occupied at 67? If they are ready, why they up to this moment and after four years only, four years, from the occupation of the Golan Height, consider this is a part of Israel. Up to this moment Golan Heights according to the Israeli constitution, according to Knesset decision, it's a part of Israel. You are speaking about withdrawal from area, why are they leaving much, much area from Lebanon and Syria under occupation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Al Zahar, how can anybody negotiate with you if you won't say what you want?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
That question should be answered by the Israeli because …
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but I'm asking you, there are two sides to negotiation, aren't there?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
They are asking us pre-conditions and denouncing our right before any sort of discussion.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
Do you want to come back on this?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. And we'll take a question from the gentleman up there please, in the striped shirt, yes.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. Today Hamas is considered as a terrorist group by 22 countries, so do you still think that Hamas is eligible enough to run the Palestinian government and why?

TIM SEBASTIAN
So what have you done wrong, what has Hamas done wrong, what have been your big mistakes?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are not angels.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tell us what your mistakes are, tell us what your big mistakes are.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Some people blame us because we participated in the election. They asked us, like Mr. Mohamed Hassanein Heikal leave the administration for the others and keep your resistance against the Israelis. That was good from the ideological point but …
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're still not telling me what your big mistakes are. What are Hamas's big mistakes, or you're perfect?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
If we got the majority of the Palestinian people, I think it was a mistake, when we run a real purified administration, it can be considered from the other as a mistake. Give me one mistake, I asking anybody to give us one example of our mistake, but we are not an angel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, lady in the fourth row.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Do you believe everything you've achieved so far is worthwhile, even though many lives have been lost along the way, including the lives of your sons?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I lost two of my sons, when the two air raids tried to kill me personally and I lost my son, he was about 23 years and the second one was 21 years, and you can't imagine how, when the father looked to the chest of his son and he see his chest is empty, is not working, and it is burned by a tank bomb and you can imagine a father who is unable to build a grave for his son because of the absence of cement, and you can't imagine a father and the mother and other people who are unable to cover the grave of their son, that is the crime of Israel and the crime of America, and that is, I'm very proud about what my people done.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Lady in the first row, I'll take your question.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
At a press conference recently, Mr Khaled Meshaal said that if the trade embargo on Palestine wasn't lifted, that Hamas would do it personally. How do you plan on doing that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
That's a very clear statement of the political attitude of all the Palestinian factions who are running real, real resistance against Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
How do you plan to do it, was the question, how do you plan to do it?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
That can be practically done. We are blaming the Israelis …
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, I know but I'm asking is how do you plan to do it.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are blaming the Israeli side who closed five to six gates, should allow, according to previous agreement with the previous administration, to open it in order to supply the Palestinian people. The other side, one gate between Gaza and Egypt, and I personally speaking up to this moment with the Egyptian side. The alternative for the Israeli closure is to open Rafah Gate, but what is the problem is the interference of America and pressure of Israel in order to keep Rafah Gate closed. All these are …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Come back to the question, Dr. Zahar, come back to the question: how do you plan to lift the embargo?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I told you. I told you before but I'm going to address that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please address it now, please.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I blame, I blame Israel and I blame the pressure in Egypt. I'm going to come back to Egypt to ask the Egyptian side to open. This is one of the most important points for us.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're very dissatisfied with the role Egypt has played?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I'm not satisfied, but I'm waiting. I'm not optimistic, I'm not pessimistic, but I'm waiting, waiting for the Israel answer.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. Gentleman in the first row please.

AUDIENCE Q (M)
Dr. Zahar, how can you justify mass violence, attacks and bombings against Fatah? You're all one people with the same cause, just with different approaches and, excuse me, could I ask another question? I read a report that a Palestinian television company, I don't know what it's called but in the kids' shows, they're actually encouraging kids to have one cause in their life and that is to demolish Israel and also to kill Danes and Scandinavians for their Mohammed cartoons.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
This is the one-eye policy published by the American and by the pro-American people. All the time they are concentrating about what happened in the Arabic television and ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, is it true, is it true or not?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I will tell you. What is happening in the schools of Israel, they are speaking about the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No but we're asking about the schools in the Palestinian territories, and you always push the question on to what is going on in Israel. We're asking you about the Palestinian television. Can you give a direct answer to a direct question?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I am answering the question very clearly.
TIM SEBASTIAN
In a very roundabout way Dr. Zahar, in a very roundabout way. Please stick to the question.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, that's my style.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I know it's your style, I know it's your style. Please answer the question.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
There is incitement inside Israel reached to the level that we are snakes. Rabbi Youssef, Awad Youssef, he is a part in the government, he described Muslims are snakes and the scorpion.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
Do you want to come back to this?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Nobody mentions about that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let the questioner come back. Excuse me, Dr. Zahar, let the questioner come back.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
So you're encouraging, you're saying that it justifies that your children are encouraged to actually be indoctrined to murder Israelis?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, no, no. This confession you can use it for the Israeli in order to criticise Hamas. We are no encouraging anybody to commit any crime on innocent people but we have to differentiate between Jews and occupation. When Jews dismissed from Britain 1290 and from France 1302 and Spain in 1492, the only place for the Jews were the Islamic lands, but we are speaking here about people came, replaced our people, six million Palestinian people are living in exile.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, you've gone back to 1492. It was a question about what is going on on Palestinian television. It wasn't about 1492.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It was one event and the official people asked them, 'Don't do it again,' so you can make a survey about, a study about our television and I think to be fair also you need to see the other television in the Israeli side, what they are addressing for their own people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Gentleman in the first row.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Salaam aleichum. Dr. Zahar, I just wanted to ask, why did the States support Kuwait when they got occupied by Iraq in 1990 and they're not supporting Palestine with the occupation of Israel. Is it Israel's right to be here?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It's a good question because we didn't support the Iraqi occupation for Kuwait, we didn't.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No, I'm talking, why did the States support Kuwait and they're not supporting you right now.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Just a moment. We didn't support the Iraqi invasion for Kuwait, this is first point. The people who supported Saddam Hussein to occupy Kuwait at that time was Yasser Arafat, and for this reason they, the Kuwaiti administration after liberation of Kuwait, reached to cutting, complete cutting their diplomatic relations with the Palestinian people. Once I came as a new administration, a new style, I was welcomed by every official including the Emir, so we are here, we are here, we are not accepting any sort of occupation, any sort of occupation. We are against the occupation of Iraq, against the occupation of Palestine, against the occupation of Palestine and against the occupation of ...
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I'm talking here about the United States of America. They supported Kuwait against Iraq and they are not supporting you right now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think that's a question you're going to have to put to the United States. I'm going to move on now. I'd like to take a question, if there are any Palestinians, are there any Palestinians in the room. Are you a Palestinian?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter. Some people find Hamas to be a terrorist organisation. I personally disagree with the statement. How can Hamas eliminate this ideology in order to reach peace?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are not putting our ideology in the process of politics because politics is run by people who are not depending on moral basis. Occupation is immoral. Give me one sort of occupation in the history is moral, give me one sort. Israeli occupation is immoral but the unbalanced policy between the Arab countries at that time in 1948 and now between Israel and Hamas, put the people under the umbrella of America, either to accept the situation and to recognise Israel on the expense of your land and the expense of right of return of six million Palestinian people in exile in abnormal and intolerable conditions in refugee camps, so the problem is not moral, it's not ideological. The problem here is the power, the impact of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me bring the questioner back in again.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, okay.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
Will you please stand. Tell me if you're happy with that answer.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
She is satisfied.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can she speak for herself? Is she allowed?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, I think I am happy because I do agree with him that the invasion of Palestine by Israel is indeed immoral so ... But it is partly because of the ideology that everyone else has of Hamas. If everyone didn't really think they were terrorists, then maybe you could accomplish more, that way you can get into people's ideas more if they didn't think you were terrorists.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. Somebody else from Palestine. Hand up there, are you from the Palestinian territories?

AUDIENCE Q (F)
How do you consider yourself an Islamic organisation when Islam forbids killing civilians and innocent people even if they were your enemy?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are committed to Islam and we are very proud to be committed to Islam because this is the only moral basis that we can use it without diversion from true faith and even from (inaudible). We have to differentiate between crimes committed against us, we have to protect ourselves, to protect our project which is representing the majority, but we are not putting Islam as a sword on the neck of everybody. We have a very remarkable good relation with the Christian. By the way, in our list in the legislative council, we put a Christian Palestinian , Hosam al-Taweel, and he got 50,000 while the first man in Fatah got only 30, so while the Palestinian Christian are only 2,050, so we are not differentiating between Muslim and Christian or Jews …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, the question was, as an Islamic organisation, how do you justify the killing of women and children, that was the question.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I answered that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think you did answer it.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We killed nobody but we are, we are …
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you mean, you killed nobody? You killed women and children.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay. We are protecting ourselves by all means. We failed by the peaceful method to achieve our sovereignty, we resorted to military activities.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So are you happy to kill women and children?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We are not happy to see our people killed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just address the question. You're addressing the question, are you happy to see women and children …
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
To see my son killed and my bodyguard killed and my colleagues killed, I think this should be answered by the Israelis.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Then you don't mind seeing other people's children killed.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, it is a matter of self-defence in order to make impact on the other side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What is the self-defence of killing women and children? Is that your idea of self-defence? Is that your idea of self-defence? Dr. Zahar, can I ask you a simple question: is that your idea of self-defence, killing women and children?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Give me an alternative. We ran the first intifada and it was very peaceful.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So the answer is yes.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, it is not like that. We are not admiring killing anybody, but the responsible, the people who are sending their soldiers in order to kill our people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'd like to ask the questioner to come back on that. Are you happy with the answer you've had?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Well, I just want to say something. You're criticising Israel's actions towards Palestinians when Hamas is doing the same, not only for Israel but to Palestinians themselves. An eye for an eye is not the way to solve, to make peace in the world. You're talking about revenge. Islam never said that you should like take revenge.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
First of all, no. Islam is asking if anybody attacks us, we have to reply, to defend ourselves. (in Arabic) this is Islam, so I know Islam very well. I'm not going to divert myself from the true Islam, but please read the Vanity Fair to understand who brought money, guns, weapons in order to kill Muslims inside Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
The questioner, you wanted to come back one more time.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Okay, I agree with killing the Israelis who are fighting us, but what do the civilians have to do with it? You're bombing cities inside occupied Palestine …
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Do you agree the Israelis to kill the Palestinian civilians?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can she finish please?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
They did take Palestine, okay, but they're civilians now. You can't bomb civilians, it's not in our religion, and you're just sending a wrong idea to the world and now everyone thinks that Islam is terrorism.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, they describe Islam as terrorism even in every area, in every area. They consider Islam as terrorism regardless of its existence, that is the administration, and I think you heard about the new crusades waged by Mr. Bush.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the fifth row there please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Salaam aleichum. Now going back to the subject or area about Hamas and Fatah, why is there a difference between these two groups if both are seeking peace. Shouldn't they set aside their differences and deal with the main issue first?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
There is a big difference between both, because Hamas is Islamic and the others are collective groups who appeal to all members. Some of them are Communist, some of them are secular, some of them are nationalist. Some and most of these people are not now representing the majority of the Palestinian people. This is as the ideological background. The second item, this system believes only in negotiation as an alternative for negotiation, so you can listen to their leadership, negotiation is their strategic goal which is a unique phenomena. Hamas has resorted to, if the negotiation will achieve our goal as we did now, for prisoner exchange as we did two days before, to open our gates, but if we fail, we cannot stick to negotiation. For negotiations we have to resort to the other alternative method that's used by every country, one of them is military action.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The questioner is suggesting that unity is the most important thing for the Palestinians.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Of course, of course. As I told you, we are …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, you've been very divisive, instead of unifying the Palestinians, you've been very divisive.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We have an open hand for Fatah to come and to reconciliate, at any country, in Qatar, in any area, we are ready without pre-conditions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your open hand? Kidnapping, summary executions, is that an open hand?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Kidnapping whom?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Kidnapping, you didn't engage in any kidnapping? You're accused by Human Rights Watch.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We released Alan Johnston who had been kidnapped during Fatah rule… We released him. Since that time 16 cases were practised before our administration. Since that time no single case …
TIM SEBASTIAN
No torture, no summary executions?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No. Give me one example now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Human Rights Watch has listed them. I can give the whole paper to you. I'll give you all the details.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I will tell you, the people who are going to bombard the pilgrimage came in 2000 in a stadium, in a square, we arrested them and we interrogated them and we found they are in direct contact with leaders in Fatah.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's why Human Rights Watch said you have taken no action against people who have violated human rights.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, we are speaking to differentiate between, people are Fatah because they are Fatah, no torture, no punishment at all, but people who are committing from Fatah, from other factions including Hamas crimes should be tried.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question from the lady in the third row there, you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Salaam aleikum. Not only is the Hamas/Fatah conflict creating a negative image about Palestinians both in the Arab World and the international community, but it's also costing many lives. How are you allowing this to continue?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I told you, nobody from our side is happy about what happened. We were forced, I told you, but the problem now, the other side is not ready, I repeat it many times. You can put a lot of pressure on Abu Mazen to come, to sit down, to speak to us, without pre-condition, we are ready, but I told you, they believe that something can be brought through what is called road map, and when Mr. Bush delivered a speech that he is going in these six months to give the Palestinian people a chance for independent state, under one condition, that Hamas and Fatah should not be reunited. That's the attitude of America.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let me ask the questioner to come back on this, Dr. Zahar, let me ask the questioner, what do you think Dr. Zahar should do, and Hamas should do?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
No, I don't think he answered my question. I'm asking how is he allowing the media to continue portraying such a negative image of the Palestinians. Shouldn't we unite as one harmony and fight against our enemy in the conflict with our shared foe instead of trying to create more divisions?
TIM SEBASTIAN
She's saying you should end the conflict between the two factions, that's a duty.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
We have to have an end for this. We give initiative. Let us start by changing the media process, media style in both sides. They refused. We asked them, come and let us speak about how to organise our existence both to control Rafah Gate. They refused.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question from up there please. Yes, you, right at the back.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. My question is, would you consider collateral damage as a cost to prove your point - the killing of citizens or civilians?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I answered this question. We are not admired with killing of citizens but you don't forget that in four days, 130 killed in what was called holocaust of Palestine, so killing of the Palestinian innocent people should be reacted by the other in order to make an impact on other side to stop much killing, so our resistance, not for killing, for stopping killing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you don't care who you kill in the process, that's all okay, it's all the same?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
No, we care about our confiscation of our rights, our land, our people, our ….
TIM SEBASTIAN
But when you do kill civilians on the other side, and you're a doctor, you're a doctor by training, do you not feel anything as a human being, as a doctor?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Of course, I told you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you feel, what do you feel?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
You are concentrating about the Israeli side and you are forgetting about our people…
TIM SEBASTIAN
I am asking what you feel as a human being. I'm asking what you feel.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Ten thousand of our Palestinian people killed by the Israelis in the last two intifada, ten thousand.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dr. Zahar, I'm asking what you feel as a human being. I'm asking what you feel about it, as a human being, what do you feel?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It's unfair.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why is it unfair?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
It's unfair.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm asking if you have some feelings about it. Why is that unfair?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Of course I have feelings.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What are the feelings? Explain to us what are your feelings?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
I expressed my feelings. Nobody in Hamas is happy about any bloodshed but we are watching, our land is stolen, our holy places are stolen, the settlement has taken our country and they are killing our people and nobody is concerned.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'd like to have another question from a Palestinian please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Dr. Zahar, you said that America is supporting Israel, and all of us know that Israel cannot move one step without support from America. President Bush before three years said he will make Palestinian state, and nothing happened. Now remains for him four, five months and he came again to the main point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, what is your point, what is your question?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
To keep area, I mean Palestine and Israel, quiet, Israel put one condition, to release Israeli soldier Gilat Shalit, one soldier. Meanwhile there are eleven thousand prisoners in Israeli prisons, men, woman …
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, what is your question please?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Dr. Zahar, what was your reply, or Hamas reply for that?
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
This is a good question because we already, we still are engaged in this process. We have eleven thousand, by the way, one quarter of the Palestinian people practise (experienced) the phenomena of imprisonment. Now we have eleven thousand five hundred fifty. One thousand of them is sentences for life, called multi-lifer, means one hundred years. We agreed with the Israelis through the Egyptian existence in Gaza to set free one thousand, four hundred fifty, should be enumerated by Hamas, agreed upon by Israel, and at that time when they free these four hundred fifty, Shalit will be released. After two months, with the guarantee of Egypt, 550 should be released. Now the Israeli sent for our, just a few days before, sent for us, people about to be released after one month, two months, three months, and to leave the multi-lifers. No deal without releasing our people, the multi-lifer, this is very clear.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to take just one more quick question from the lady in the third row.

AUDIENCE Q (F)
Thank you. Dr. Zahar, I'm a Palestinian and when you guys came into power, we had hopes, we thought that things will improve and things will be better for us, but unfortunately that didn't happen. I have family back in Gaza and I know that they are worse off now. Do you think that if there are elections tomorrow, you will win these elections? I doubt it.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
First of all, that hope was for everybody, even from Fatah group, but what happened? The policy of constructive course and you know, understanding what is the meaning course - refusal to arrest criminals, participation in kidnapping foreigners, including Alan Johnson, encouraging the group of death, belonging to what is called preventive security section, and uprising, closure of the hospital for more than four months in West Bank, closure of schools, and lastly they resorted to the military activity …
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the question was whether you thought you would get elected again.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, I'm going to answer that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, we're running out of time.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Okay, so that is the cause of absence of the hope, but believe me, if we are going to run elections tomorrow, we are going to take more votes for us because everybody now is understanding that we are the only side protecting the national interest inside Palestine and outside.
TIM SEBASTIAN (to questioner)
You want to come back? Briefly, very briefly.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Well, I think that the first step for anything to happen for people to recognise their own mistakes, and if you are not planning to do that, I don't think that, both sides, I'm not talking about you only, both sides, if we don't face the fact that we've done something wrong, we will never be able to move forward. That's the first point. The second point is, I know people who are living there and they are in really bad shape. We should stop and look at what we're doing to our own people and then concentrate on Israel, which I agree is our enemy.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
This is a good comment. I accept this comment, but your family are there. Why we are accepting the suffering of your family and our family by the Israeli hand when they closed the border and prevented anything to come in, so the bad situation, because of the Israeli sanction or the cause of bad management?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think she just wants to say something.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Because you are a Palestinian, you are part of me. I expect something different from you. I don't expect you to treat me the same way as the Israelis do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
Just a minute.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly, very briefly.
MAHMOUD AL ZAHAR
For this reason. My existence in Egypt for this reason, my existence discussing with everybody in order to open the gate for this reason, so we are doing our best but I think there are supreme power preventing us from achieving our goal.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Unfortunately we've run out of time. My thanks to Dr. Mahmoud Al Zahar for coming here and taking all the questions. Thanks to you, the audience, for participating. The Doha Debates will be back again in the autumn. Till then, from all of us on the team, have a good summer, and tonight a safe journey home. Good night, thank you very much.