This House believes Muslims aren't getting a fair deal in India

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to this special edition of The Doha Debates, coming to you from the Indian capital New Delhi, and sponsored by The Qatar Foundation. Tonight we're guests of St. Stephen's College, one of the oldest campuses of Delhi University, and one of the top educational institutions in this vast country. It counts many of India's most influential figures among its alumni, not least six serving cabinet ministers, one of whom is on our panel, and twenty members of the current parliament. We're delighted to be in such a distinguished setting. As India's importance grows on the international stage so does the intensity of that international spotlight on its democracy, its human rights and its ability to manage the many different communities and religions within its borders. High on the list of contentious issues has been the condition of more than 130 million Indian Muslims, the second largest Muslim population in the world, and the largest of the minority groups in this country. Do they get equal access to education, to jobs and justice? Are they, to some extent, the architects of their own perceived misfortunes, or do they face systemic discrimination? Our motion tonight is, as always, controversial: ‘This House believes that Muslims are not getting a fair deal in India'. It's an issue on which our panel is sharply divided. Speaking for the motion, Seema Mustafa, former editor of Covert magazine, and author of a number of books on Indian politics.  She's also the holder of an award for excellence in political reporting and analysis. And with her Teesta Setalvad, a civil rights activist who's been at the forefront of the campaign for justice for the victims of the 2002 Gujarat Riots; a year later she won the Nuremberg International Human Rights Award. Speaking against the motion, Sachin Pilot, Minister for Communications and Information Technology. He made history in 2004 by becoming the youngest member of the Indian Parliament. And with him a well-known commentator and journalist, M.J. Akbar, a prolific writer and broadcaster, who's edited several publications, including the new Sunday Guardian.  He's also served as an MP for three years until 1992. Ladies and gentlemen: our panel.
[Applause]
So now let me first ask Seema Mustafa please to speak for the motion.

SEEMA MUSTAFA
Thank you. I firmly believe, and I think, and I'm sure, that you will also by the end of the debate, that Muslims are not getting a fair deal in this country, and I quote: "Muslims carry a double burden of being labelled anti-national and being appeased at the same time". It was an observation by the Justice Rajindar Sachar Report, a systematic study, or the first study, of its kind in India. The responsibility for this state of affairs really rests on the government, on political parties, and the Muslim leadership itself. Governments have, over and over again, abdicated their responsibility for bringing perpetrators of the worst kind of communal carnage to task, to justice, and to give justice to the victims of the same communal strife. A lot of commissions have been appointed, a lot of committees have been appointed, but their recommendations are rarely implemented. Governments have also done very little to uplift, economically uplift, educationally uplift, the Muslims. There was Indira Ghandi's 15 point programme, and today there's Manmohan Singh's 15 point programme and Sachar continues to maintain that this educational status of Muslims, the employment percentage of Muslims, is now at par with the Scheduled Caste and Tribes. Governments have also been targeting Muslims after 9/11, particularly in a nationwide - you could say in a sense, a campaign - across the country. Innocents have been arrested and victimised and this has further lead to ghettoisation, to resentment and anger, where Muslims are not even able to get accommodation in places like Delhi. The next is, of course, political parties, which have also been specifically spreading prejudice against the Muslims by creating stereotypes by consolidating vote banks and by launching hate campaigns across the country. They have also played to the regressive sides of both the communities, and they also prefer to propagate and to take up issues which are non-issues, like Hajj or declaring certain days religious holidays, instead of focusing on issues of security and issues of livelihood.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I ask you to wrap up shortly.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yes, and the last is, of course, the Muslims themselves who are not giving themselves... have not been giving themselves a fair deal.  The Muslim leadership, the elite and the Maulanas have been working against the Muslims and strengthening perceptions of communalism. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Seema Mustafa, thank you very much indeed. I'm puzzled to find you on this side of the motion because in the last few years you've been praising the way Muslims in India are assured of their right to vote, their say in the democratic process. Is that not a fair deal for them?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yes, they can vote, and probably so can the poor and so can all the marginalised sections in India.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you wrote that because of the attitude of secular India, the minorities, Muslims included, feel they belong in India and are not alone. Is that not also part of a fair deal?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yes, that is part of what the people of India do - there's a difference, and that is why I've singled out the government, political parties and Muslim leadership. I'm not talking about the people of India because there is a certain democratic element, probably, in the people of India.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're talking about a country with the largest affirmative action programmes in the world. No other country has the affirmative action programmes that India has - and the Muslims are not benefiting from those?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
No, not many, and the affirmative action is mostly for the Dalits, for the Scheduled Castes. Affirmative action is becoming an issue now for the Muslims. But it has not been...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And yet the success stories keep coming, the success stories, the Muslim success stories keep coming in films, in sport, in business...in science.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
But there are success stories.. there was Indira Ghandi who was the Prime Minister of India, but that doesn't mean that the women got a fair deal. If you have a Shah Rukh Khan or you have a president of  India that doesn't mean that the poor elite is getting a...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you have 500 million people in this country who are not getting a fair deal, Seema Mustafa you have 500 million people in this country who are not getting a fair deal.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yes, you have a lot of people who are not, and now you are having more and more groups joining the people who are discriminated against.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you have plenty of Muslims who are getting a fair deal, why are they getting less of a fair deal that anybody else?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
No, there are not plenty of Muslims getting a fair deal because now, in the Lok Sabha, if you see there are 543 MPs, of which only 33 are Muslims. If you see that in terms of Muslim concentrated districts you find that...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You have a vice president who is Muslim, you've had three presidents who are Muslims in India, you can't say that doors are closed to them in this country.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yes, you've had vice presidents and you had presidents, because they come from the same elite that I'm talking about. I'm talking about the poor, the backward Muslims, who are completely kept out of this process, they are the victims of communal strife.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And all the same doors, and important doors, are open to them in this country.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
No, but they are the ones who are the victims of communal strife, they are the victims, they are the people who are not getting houses, they are the people who are not getting jobs, they're not being absorbed in the civil services, they are not being absorbed in the Defence Ministry, Defence Services. So the problem is with the poor, as always, and here it's getting worse.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Seema Mustafa, thank you very much indeed. Now let me ask Sachin Pilot to speak against the motion.

SACHIN PILOT
Thank you very much. I think anybody who understands India and understands the ethos and our cultural heritage, and the way we function as a country, as a society, will completely disagree. Because what we have here in India [is] a constitution that not only provides for, but protects every single minority group whether it's ethnic, religious, linguistic. We have a population of more than a billion people, and I'm so proud to say it, that 140 million Muslims in this country, both Shias and Sunnis, have had the rights to participate in elections, to get elected to important positions. We've had presidents, chief justice, heads of defence services, sports stars, Bollywood - in every aspect of our life there is equal participation, and the opportunity. I think the opportunity is guaranteed in the law, in the constitution and, more importantly, in the hearts of every single Indian. And that's why, I think, when you look at how Muslims are in this country, it's fair to say that some of them, perhaps, are not as financially well-off as some of the other people are. But the fact of the matter is that the political empowerment that Muslims have got in the country has made them feel a part of the mainstream. No other country with the size of a Muslim population as India is democratic, whether it's Asia or Africa - the fact that every single Muslim in India feels that he belongs to the state and every non-Muslim feels that they have as much in common with the Muslims, is a great sense of connectivity and a great sense of empowerment that we give to everybody. The fact that people are getting less opportunity - India is a developing country.  I think every state government, every central government, has made efforts to have inclusive growth. People who have been left out in the fringes, whether they belong to Scheduled Caste or Tribals or they're from far-flung areas - we have to make more efforts to get them into the mainstream. But I think the fact that some people have tried to highlight this and make it a political issue, grab media headlines by saying that there's vast discrimination - I'm against any of that, because I believe that we stand for equal opportunity, equal rights, and every single Indian in this country, he or she can be from any religion, any caste, any part of the nation, has as much of a stake in this country's progress and development. And I think that takes hundreds of years of our living together as people of the same country and people who feel something for each other. You cannot create that, the kind of policies that this government has made the kind of fund allocation we've done...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Minister, can I ask you to come to an end please.
SACHIN PILOT
The kind of programmes, policies, the framework that we've established now is an affirmative action of the largest kind in the world. And I think the people are beginning to see the fruits of that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Minister Sachin Pilot, thank you very much indeed. I really don't recognise your description of the country when I look at the Sachar Report which looked into the position of Muslims in just 2006, and pointed out that in no state in India does the representation of Muslims in the government department match their population share. It pointed out that Muslim regular workers receive lower daily earnings in both public and private jobs. That the literacy rate among Muslims is far below the national average. That 25 percent of Muslim children in the 6 to 14 year age group have either never attended school, or have dropped out. I don't recognise it from the ‘everything in your garden is rosy' picture which you just gave us.
SACHIN PILOT
I never said that, I think the data that you pointed out - that committee was formed for exactly that purpose, to bring out the hard facts.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well you knew the hard facts anyway, you've known them for years.
SACHIN PILOT
We've known them but I'm saying...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've had successive commissions, but you haven't done anything.
SACHIN PILOT
...the implementation of the recommendations that have been made, how effective they are, how many funds have been earmarked, the resources that have been deployed effectively - that is what we're trying to do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What's been deployed since 2006? What has actually changed on the ground for any of these groups, disadvantaged and neglected groups, among the Muslims? What has changed since 2006?
SACHIN PILOT
I think that in India there are lots of people in this country, in our society, who have been disadvantaged, who are disaffected, who have not really had the fruits of the economic progress that we've made, and Muslims form a part of that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But what has changed? Minister, can you point to one thing, as a result of this Sachar Report, which pointed out unprecedented levels of deficit and deprivation among Muslims - what has actually changed since 2006? Nothing at all.
SACHIN PILOT
The government has earmarked a hundred districts all over India where billions of dollars are going to be deployed to make the lives of those people better, and direct funding for education...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When are they going to get these billions of dollars?
SACHIN PILOT
...for making sure that the young Muslim boys and girls get skill sets so they get empowered and they get job opportunities...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you satisfied with this?
SACHIN PILOT
I'm not satisfied, I think there's more work to be done, but it's wrong to point out and say that there is a targeted discrimination against a religious community.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Minister Sachin Pilot thank you very much indeed. Now let me ask Teesta Setalvad to speak for the motion please.

TEESTA SETALVAD
In 1953 India's first Prime Minister writes a letter to all chief ministers saying that he's very upset, and disturbed at the fact, [of the] declining presence of Muslims in the army.  It was 32 percent at partition, it's 2 percent now. Home Ministry, police, IES, IPS, PSU's: all key positions of governance - Muslims are disempowered. Combine this with mass violence against a community - just like Dalits are targeted very often because of upper-caste bias. Highlight this along with the fact that discrimination in investigating agencies will look at only one kind of terror and top it all with the label of not just being anti-national, but now a traitor and a terrorist. I think what we're talking about today, it has recognition at the highest policy levels from 1953, the 1985 Gopal Singh report, then again Rajiv Ghandi's 15 point programme. Now again Dr. Manmohan Singh's programme.  It means that something is seriously wrong. What is the cause - we can come to next.  It's a bundle of contradictions, India's a bundle of contradiction, there never is only one cause. The cause is definitely an elite political and economic leadership that did not want to empower this section of the population as much as they wanted to empower others. The Muslim leadership included, who did not want to empower 76 percent of its own, were OBC and Dalit Muslims. They tried to suppress Muslim women with a 9 percent literacy rate which is half that of our Hindu sister. The fact that she's oppressed, not just by caste, class but also by her community and is subject to brute rape and violence when there's mass crimes against the community. The fact that the Muslim today lives in segregated classrooms and also in ghettoised cities - I think we're dealing with a very dangerous situation. Contrast this with Irfan Pathan, one of our fast paced bowlers bowling from Baroda, Gujarat and being clapped by all of us on the TV screen. That's the ordinary Hindu Indian, that makes no difference between Muslim and Hindu - but yes, at the level of elite political, economic, social, there has been a discrimination. And I think, in support  of the motion, holding the Muslim elite as much responsible as the Indian state, 40/60 perhaps, we should acknowledge the problem, because once we acknowledge the problem we reach a solution.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could I ask you to come to an end please.
TEESTA SETALVAD
160 million or 130 million of us feeling disenfranchised, feeling discriminated against, functioning under the label of a terror[ist] or anti-national is not healthy for any society. I stand in support of the motion.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Teesta Setalvad, thank you very much indeed. You say that the government hasn't acknowledged serious problems, but it has acknowledged the serious problems, it says it's going to do a number of things.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Because they exist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It hasn't said they haven't existed, it says that it's doing something about it.
TEESTA SETALVAD
The motion says: are they getting a fair deal in India? If they were then such policy measures would not be necessary.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What, really? We're talking about a report that was three years ago.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Well, in three years there's no magic that's happened.
TIM SEBASTIAN
In three years ago, and in longer, and the time that you've been investigating and looking into the Gujarat Riots, you have had support from the most important legal body in this country, the Supreme Court.
TEESTA SETALVAD
The only support we've had is from the higher judiciary, not from political parties...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's not bad, that's pretty much of a fair deal isn't it?
TEESTA SETALVAD
It's very good, it's very good - which is why we're proud to be Indian...
TIM SEBASTIAN
...to have the Supreme Court on your side. How can you say you don't have a fair deal if you have the Supreme Court on you side?
TEESTA SETALVAD
But the fact is that in Gujarat today 58,000 children are not getting free metric scholarships because the chief minister said: "I'm not going to implement a central government programme" and the central government is quiet because they don't want to take on the state government. So this is the issue, the issue is not that there are no remedial measures within Indian democracy, thank God there are. But you need to invoke them, you need to invoke them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But to listen to you you'd think that the Muslims in this country represent some powerless group cowering in a corner. There are 130 million Muslims here. They have enormous voting power, they brought the Congress Party to power, they helped bring the congress party to power. They have enormous electoral clout.
TEESTA SETALVAD
And thank God for that, but I'm saying they need more than just voting power.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's pretty much of a fair deal isn't it?
TEESTA SETALVAD
They need more than just voting power, they need jobs, they need schools, they need jobs in higher positions as befitting their qualifications.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They have these voting rights, they have, as I said, enormous electoral power. Perhaps they sold their votes too cheaply.
TEESTA SETALVAD
I don't think votes are sold in this country.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Perhaps it's their fault that they don't get a fairer deal than they do. If you claim that they do get a fair deal.
TEESTA SETALVAD
I think they need to be democratic demands of a leadership rather than patronising demands, the Muslim elite leadership has been used to doles rather than asking as a matter of right. I think even secular national parties have taken the Satari Musulman for granted. And I think that there is a democratisation process which is on... which will see results very soon.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Teesta Setalvad thank you very much indeed. Can I please ask now M.J. Akbar to speak against the motion.

M.J. AKBAR
Thank you Tim. Yes I can see the dangers of tokenism - I once argued that instead of appointing one Muslim as a president, if we'd got 10,000 clerical jobs it would have been a much fairer deal for the community. But, I do, and I oppose this motion out of conviction, not merely to win a debate.   There are three incontrovertible facts. Indian Muslims are the only Muslims in the history of the world who have enjoyed six decades of uninterrupted democracy. That by itself, I argue, may not be enough because democracy has to mean something. The second reason I offer actually strengthens my case, I believe: Indian Muslims are among the few Muslim communities in the world, I didn't say only, who have, when they look ahead, the hope of meeting the true challenge before Muslim communities all over the world. And what is that challenge? That challenge is no longer nationalism - that was our grandfathers' challenge in 1918, and our fathers' challenge in 1947. Today's challenge, the challenge before St. Stephen's, is which Muslim community, which community will reach the stage of modernity? Who will become modern and how do you define modernity? There are four definitions: one, adult franchise, political equality, a nation without political equality cannot be modern. Number two, gender equality, extremely important - you cannot be a modern society, nation, without gender equality and I say this particularly before Muslim audiences that if - and this is an internal fact, not an external one so much - that if Indian Muslims do not get gender equality, nobody will invite them to the nineteenth century, forget the twenty-first. Number three: religious equality - we have it.  It is visible in your dress, it is visible in the freedoms, we don't have burkha debates in the country, we have the right to wear a turban, we have the right to do what we like, if it's part of our... and we do not insult the other by treating one religion as superior to the other, or inferior to the other. Some Indians do, but India does not.  Four: we have economic equity and that is really where our real challenge lies, in creating economic equity for a community.  India can grow at eight percent and ten percent, but if 15 percent of Muslims of India do not grow at eight percent then Indian growth is incomplete. Tokenism is...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you come to a close soon please.
M.J. AKBAR
Certainly, we can take questions from you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
M.J. Akbar, thank you very much indeed. You think Muslims get a fair deal in India, yet you spent years pointing out the ways in which they are socially, economically and politically disadvantaged. You've written that they want justice and jobs, that they don't get them, you've written about police prejudice which they suffer, which you say they suffer. How is all that evidence of a fair deal? How on earth can you be on this side of the motion and on that one?
M.J. AKBAR
Precisely because I knew you were going to ask this question, and that was why the third point I never mentioned. The third and most important part of my country, India, is that India is changing. Riots - I've covered more riots, all you have to do is read riot after riot, and I will be on no side of the debate at the end of it. But, in the Eighties, I, as a journalist, it was not, three months, four months, God knows, I don't want to remember that. Sikh riots, Delhi riots, heavens, I mean I don't want to...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But where is the fair deal now?
M.J. AKBAR
The fair deal is that in the last two decades, from 1992 to today, there have been only two riots in India.  Only two.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where's the fair deal on jobs?
M.J. AKBAR
The fair deal is that, as an Indian nation, the young in particular as they move ahead, are changing the shape of India and lifting us from the sins of the fathers.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the figures don't bear that out, do they? Where is the fair deal on jobs, where is it?
M.J. AKBAR
These figures reflect the sins of your generation and mine. They do not reflect the change that is happening.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I knew you'd bring me into it somehow.
M.J. AKBAR
I had to. I refuse to have a debate in which I cannot blame the British.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But at the same time, you point to changes, but the things that you have been highlighting over the years -  the problems still remain. There's still no fair deal on jobs, there's still no fair deal on police prejudice, you say, in your eyes. These are the things you've been writing about, 2007, 2008, 2009.
M.J. AKBAR
The power of democracy makes a ruling party which, largely because it has been in power for so long, has been the problem. But it creates the Ranganath Commission, out of the Sacher Commission, then doesn't know what to do with it. But these are the evolving facts of democracy, and now, lo and behold, the Marxists, who so far have been frozen like only a Marxist can freeze, have, in Bengal, discovered the virtues of reservation. But that is the power of democracy Tim, and Indian democracy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
M.J. Akbar, thank you very much indeed. Just a reminder then of the motion: ‘This House believes that Muslims aren't getting a fair deal in India'. You've heard sharply divergent opinions on that view. I'm going to take questions now from the audience. Gentleman on this side, you sir, yes you. If you could stand up we'll get a microphone to you, on the other side, gentleman in the striped red pullover.

AUDIENCE (M)
Hello, my question is directed to the side which has been talking against the motion.  So Mr. M J, I've grown up reading a lot of your articles where you consistently talk about how, for example, the mafia in India has largely been pictured as a Muslim mafia and you write about how the mafia is also largely comprised of elements which happen to be Hindu, Christian and Sikh. So both you and Mr. Sachin Pilot, sir, have continuously stressed on the existence of an adult franchise, on the existence of the 15 point programme as enough to show that Muslims in India are getting a fair deal. Whereas the question, which I think even the side for the motion has been trying to ask you, is that: is the existence merely enough, or is a fair amount of it being implemented? So that's what my question to you is, that a lot of these programmes which you've mentioned do exist on paper, but how far do you really think, especially considering Mr. M.J. Akbar's journalism, that these programmes are being implemented?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you very much, M.J. Akbar.
M.J. AKBAR
Change is not going to come because of governments, change is going to come because of the people. Change is going to come because governments are going to be punished for indolence. Therefore you have seen huge shifts in the traditional voting patterns among Dalits, among Muslims - fluctuations, variations taking place and this is the heartening fact. We are not talking about frozen realities, we are talking about evolution and I think... you made a very good point, that why did - and I remember, I think this very clearly - why did, after all, so many Muslims join the underworld? Not because when Muslims are born they suddenly emerge looking like criminals or seeking criminality. If you don't give those jobs in the white economy where will they go? But they are moving out of it, through the film industry.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Seema Mustafa do you want to come in on this?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
So much is being made of the vote, which is, of course, extremely important - but what happens in the five years between one vote and another vote? That is the time when they ghettoisation takes place, that is the time when Gujarat takes place, that is the time when the jobs are not given. That is also the time when commissions, just before the election, commissions are appointed and after they make the recommendations we've had any number of commissions, we've had Gopal Singh in '83, we've had Sacher, you name them, a plethora of commissions and then their recommendations are not implemented. So what is this big thing of democracy if you can't carry it through the five years, Sachin?
SACHIN PILOT
The point that you make I take partially, because committees have been appointed, commissions have been formed to do better things for various communities, various regions, various linguistic minorities, religious minorities. You cannot say that it is only the Muslims that have been targeted.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
How do you explain...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we let him just make his point?
SACHIN PILOT
Our delivery system is not the perfect one, we have to work strongly at it, our last mile delivery is very, very poor throughout the country. But it is wrong to say that it is only because there are Muslim regions and Muslim areas where the delivery is poor. I think you have to make an extra effort to realise, to reach out to all the minorities that exist in this country, whether it is Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists or Muslims, and believe me, there is not a single person in this country who believes when you look at a person, an individual in this country, you think they're neither Hindu or Muslim.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
But after 9/11 the insecurity...
SACHIN PILOT
We're only talking about the government jobs - let's talk about the private sector, let's talk about Bollywood...
SEEMA MUSTAFA
After 9/11 the security...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please let her come back.
TEESTA SETALVAD
IES jobs are at 3 percent, IPS is 5 percent, IF is 2 percent. I mean, PSU is 5 percent - we are talking about 65 years of independence and it's going steadily down the years.
SACHIN PILOT
You are looking at the kinds of jobs that are going down anyway.
TEESTA SETALVAD
These are the high-end jobs, these are the decision-making jobs.
SACHIN PILOT
Look at the people in this country who are private entrepreneurs, people who are making...
TEESTA SETALVAD
These are the decision-making jobs.
SACHIN PILOT
...people who are there in showbusiness, in politics, in Bollywood, in cricket, in sports, in media - and believe me, you talk about the Gujarat Riots, it was a shameful time for our country, we regret it wholeheartedly, but the people who are fighting for the Muslims of Gujarat are the Hindus.
TIM SEBASTIAN
If you're regretting it Minster, why is there no justice?
SACHIN PILOT
There is justice.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why is there no justice?
SACHIN PILOT
Because the law will take its own course Tim, there are courts, there are procedures and not just for the Gujarat Riots, the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's eight years - it is still taking its time?
SACHIN PILOT
There have been crimes committed twenty years ago and our systems have not been able to deliver justice at the right time. But the fact that people are fighting for the cause for the Muslims whether it is the Babri Masjid or the Gujarat, it is the Hindus and the other people also. So it is wrong to say that you are targeting the Muslims.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, please, Seema, you wanted to come back.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yes the Liberhan Commission was appointed in 1992 to look into the demolition of the Babri masjid, it's sad, extension after extension, you could blame the BJP, but then the Congress came, more extension. Seventeen years later it has submitted a report, and where are the recommendations? What about Gujarat? What has happened to the relief and the rehabilitation of the people of Gujarat? What has happened to the victims? Narendra Modi has been felicitated by the planning commission of the government of India, as one of the greatest planners and administrators. How do you administrate?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him answer the questions.
SACHIN PILOT
The deliver of justice cannot be at the whims of fancy of you and me, there is a certain procedure and there are delays in our courts from lower courts up to the Supreme Court and the High Courts. So I accept that problem in our system, as such, there is clogging of the justice system and we have to take steps to move that bock.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Sachin -
SACHIN PILOT
Hang on, but the point, the point is eighteen years later, today, the debate is still on, the media, the politicians, our society is keeping it alive because we believe in justice, we will have  delivery, it may be delayed but it cannot be denied. And that's the strength of this country.
TEESTA SETALVAD
33 percent of the underclass in jail in Karnataka are Muslims, 19 percent in Gujarat, Muslims, 25 percent in Mahrashra Muslims - there's a discriminatory position of justice in this country. Look at the bails given to a certain kind of mock terror, those who engage in mock terror get bail in two months, those who engage in mock terror don't get convicted for 17 years.
TIM SEBASTIAN
M.J. Akbar, you wouldn't disagree with those figures would you?
M.J. AKBAR
No because one of the reasons...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And yet you are still on that side.
M.J. AKBAR
Yes, but one of the reasons I did not succeed in politics was because I was not quite a hypocrite enough. One of the real problems, actually, and you know you can't argue with certain facts, all I can ask myself is whether India is changing or not. We know these realities, but let me add to this that one of the greatest problems, when we have talked of positive discrimination for Muslims, I'm sitting in front and watching one of the great leaders of the present setup, has created a bank for Indian Muslims and stolen that bank blind, and there are no protests, the whole system doesn't protest. So obviously there are systemic problems, not just with Muslims. There's systemic problems with Dalits, there's systemic problems, there's poverty among Brahmins, there's poverty among upper-caste Hindus, there are hundreds of problems with our countries. We are talking about India growing and the world's attention coming to us - how much of India is growing? Eight percent of India, that growth that you talk about, 20 percent is growing at 15 percent and 17 percent - 80 percent of India is not growing at all. St. Stephen's is a dream, a fantasy, something in Alice in Wonderland for 80 percent of India.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, I'm going to move on and take a question from the gentleman in the fifth row, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you very much, my name is Adel from Qatar University and I'm Eritrean.  I'm a Muslim and my question is to Miss, if I may call you, Seema. Don't you think that other segments of the community are suffering the same problem the Muslims are suffering in India and in the Third World?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Same problem in India?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, same problems in India and the Third World.
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is, don't you think there are other segments of the community are suffering the same problems Indian Muslims are suffering?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Suffering the same as them? Yeah, I think that the poor, amongst the Muslims, are suffering just like the Dalits are suffering. I would make a difference between the upper-caste and the lower-caste, because there is social discrimination which is sometimes more traumatic and very crippling for who we used to call the untouchables. So that's a very major issue, but the point is here, for the purpose of this debate, when you are talking of the poor and the backward Muslims who are being exploited by the system, which I pointed out includes the government, includes political parties, and includes the Muslim elite and the Maulanas. So when they are being exploited in this manner, the poverty is growing, fear and insecurity is growing, apprehension is growing, and they are being left out, they are being ghettoised and being left out of the development process.
AUDIENCE (M)
The point I wanted [to make clear] - are Muslims discriminated just because they are Muslims? That's the point, do they discriminate us just because they are Muslims - I am a Muslim - I want that to be clear.
TEESTA SETALVAD
For both reasons, because they are poor and also because additionally because they carry the label of being a Muslim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Sachin Pilot you wanted to come in.
SACHIN PILOT
Seema's made a point, repeatedly, about the fear and insecurity amongst the Muslims and how it's being targeted and they've been branded as a community that promotes terrorism, etc. It makes me so proud to say this to you: the only Muslim community in the entire world that has gotten up, and publicly had a fatwa against terrorism is in India and no other country. The Indian Muslims have gotten up and said they will fight against terrorism and I think that is how the Indian Muslims feel, you can advocate on how they feel discriminated...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think your team mate actually agrees with you on this, he seems so be shaking his head, aren't you?
TEESTA SETALVAD
We are proud we did it, we are proud we did it...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You seem to be shaking your head.
SACHIN PILOT
You don't want to give it... the fatwas against terrorism?
M.J. AKBAR
You know one of the things that I have heard very often is largest... that everything that happens in India has to be the largest, because we are one of the largest countries, you know the largest endowment, the largest... So yes, it's perfectly true, that the largest group of Ulema in the world, which is the Jamiat Ulema did issue a fatwa, which was a very, very brave decision by the way... what is true, I'm sorry to defer with you a little, that in South Asia the Ulema in Turkey the Ulema in many parts of... have in fact been very, very candid and vociferous against terrorism. What is not equally - one of the remarkable stories by the way is Indonesia in the evolution that has taken unto democracy - but one, if you look in the context, you see there is no text without context - look at where Indian Muslims that have been, if you like, if we had not been in India. Look at all around you, today, in...
TEESTA SETALVAD
We are not debating that, we are debating the fact that we're getting a raw deal.
M.J. AKBAR
May I be permitted to frame...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just for a little longer, just for a little longer.
M.J. AKBAR
Just look at it: in 1947 Indian Muslims voted for partition, I give you a challenge, did ...
TEESTA SETALVAD
That I think is unfair, that is an unfair statement.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can he just have his challenge and then you can come straight in, ok?
M.J. AKBAR
It is very difficult to argue with someone who won't argue.
TEESTA SETALVAD
The Ansaries never voted in...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please just wait one second, you will have your say, please.
M.J. AKBAR
In 1946, which was only 11 percent of the electorate, Indian Muslims voted substantially for the Muslim League and for partition. If you take an election now, Indian Muslims, in my view, will vote to remain in India rather than go anywhere else.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Teesta, your point please.
TEESTA SETALVAD
I think it's erroneous reporting, that's why I cut into him, I'm sorry about that. But what I want to say is that the whole divide between the Ashrafi and the non Ashrafi, Musulman, today is because the Ansari class and the working class feel that they were always against partition, and yet it is the pro-Muslim league elite that has been privileged by India's political elite...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we've rather come away from the original question, I'm going to move on now.
TEESTA SETALVAD
It's wrong, it's wrong to say what you did.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the third row, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is directed to this side of the house and Mr. Pilot, Mr. Akbar. When one national party currently treats the Muslims as a vote bank and the other's foundational philosophy's inherently discriminatory, how can you say that Muslims have been getting a fair deal? And secondly, Mr. Akbar keeps talking about change, but one of the most fundamental changes we've seen in the social fabric in India is the rise of the Hindu right, the rise of Hindu fundamentalism, which is today. It's a new phenomenon, so what do you have to say about that?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let me go to Sachin Pilot first.
SACHIN PILOT
Well I think the accusation that the main national party, the BJP, makes to us, my party, my government, is that you're targeting the Muslims because you treat them as a vote bank. My argument to that is that just because a certain set of our society is poor, needs more help, more support and more resources of the government, they shouldn't be denied just because they are Muslims. So, they call it vote bank politics or whatever it is, I'm bold enough to say that my government supports all affirmative actions no matter who they are, what language, what religion, what ethics they follow. But the problem is, that in this country we have got to stop debating the fact that there are communities who are being targeted. I think as a society there is less development in some areas, in some parts of a country, we need to make sure equitable distribution of resources happens across India so that our growth, that everyone is so proud of, percolates down to the people who need our help the most, and that's what we have to do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Seema Mustafa.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yeah, I just want to say that this equitable distribution, etc. etc., where is this happening? Every time the Muslims are being told is that what is important for them is Prophet Muhammad's birthday. What is important for them is to have subsidies for Hajj to travel, you know, they're not being told... and stuff about livelihood, security, equity, economic and educational largesse, if you want to call it, it doesn't exist except on paper. I mean if you have your own studies that have proved that in Muslim concentrated areas the Muslims are extremely backward.
TIM SEBASTIAN
M.J. Akbar.
M.J. AKBAR
Yeah, I'd like to answer, although sometimes I feel that we need to switch sides, some members... but...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's convincing for them isn't it?
M.J. AKBAR
But I would like to answer your question directly, it was a direct question, I appreciate the question, I would like to answer it directly. The BJP's problem, in my view, is that it thinks India is a secular country because M.J. Akbar, a Muslim, I'm very proud to be a Muslim - that's simply untrue. Fourteen percent of India cannot define the political and social culture of India. India is a secular country because Hindus want to be secular. And that is what it doesn't get. The real problem, therefore, vis-à-vis the two parties, is really not what the BJP, because the BJP has a very difficult relationship with Muslims, when it comes to power or when it's outside power. The real problem is its inability to understand the nation itself. It's inability to understand Indians themselves.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think the questioner was asking you how that translates into the fair deal that you say Muslims get.
M.J. AKBAR
The fair deal the Muslims get is because the idea of India, fortunately, is stronger than India's political parties.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I wonder if you accept that? Let me just go back to the questioner for the moment. Do you accept that? If we can get the microphone back to you.
AUDIENCE (M)
I think it's hard to believe that's true, because I mean, while that's good rhetoric, the fact of the matter is that if we look at the rise of Hindu fundamentalism, the Hindu right, and you know, amidst acts of terror and such, we see that there is an increasing section of the Hindu community that feels that they need to be fundamental, that they need to be marginalising the Muslim community, and this is evident, even in student politics, it's evident at the very grass roots.
M.J. AKBAR
My friend, let me tell you, I've watched elections for a long while, I've watched the rise of police forces, win them, tried to fight them, whatever we've tried to do. If the Hindu right, the Hindu fundamentalist right, could not survive, could not become a national power, which they fantasised they would become, between the Babri Masjid movement and 9/11 they will never have...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you like to explain that, the Babri Masjid movement?
M.J. AKBAR
Okay, the passions that were aroused by the Ayodhya Temple movement in 1985, by mistakes made by the government, also by the way, which is the Shah Bano case which I thought was a huge mistake and an opportunity for gender reform within the Muslim community that was lost. Between that time the compromises made which was exploited expertly, the rise of the Ayodhya Temple movement and the passions aroused - you have no clue, and thank God you have no clue.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Teesta Setalvad.
M.J. AKBAR
And till 9/11 when hated Muslims became an international phenomenon. If India survived all that...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you. Teesta.
TEESTA SETALVAD
I just want to say it is an excellent question, and I really think that we are treating this phenomenon very unseriously if we dismiss the right wing just like that. I think the infiltration of the Hindu right wing is challenging the fundamentals of constitutional governance in this country, because since 1977 when they first came into power in alliance they have positioned key people who are wedded to an ideology that is not wedded to the Indian constitution but wedded to something, a different ideal of a different Indian nation. And therefore I think that all efforts at policy making, Sachin, gets subverted. The elite is there, the Sarkari Muselman is there, but also, fundamentally, you have these things blocking passage of the progress down the line by this fundamental belief that Muslims are second class citizens.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, thank you. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the fourth row, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you, my question is to the opposition side of the panel, my name is Nabil, I go to Georgetown University. Wouldn't you agree with me that in a country as democratic as India, where Muslims are a large minority and the government works by proportional representation, that it is a must that a country has, as a compensation to that minority, institutions that are dedicated to looking over, facilitating the affairs of this minority and making sure that they are getting a fair deal in all sorts of fields, be it education, economics, job opportunities, stuff like that. I would like you to name five of these institutions, how much funding do they get as opposed to other institutions that help out Hindu affairs, and how effective are they? Thank you.
SACHIN PILOT
We don't have institutions in this country that are made on religious lines. Let me tell you, my government has a separate ministry which is called the Ministry for Minority Affairs, so all the issues that can be done, that can be taken for the upliftment of all minorities, Muslims included because they are the largest proportion of the minorities, all affirmative actions, all legislative issues, all fund allocation, all policy-making, all the resources that the government of India has and how we can make them reach to the people that need them the most, that's the job of this ministry. And there are innumerable institutions, both government and private, that are functioning with the full support of the people of this country, and the government, whether it's state or centre, to make sure that our objective of our constitution, which is that a secular republic must be maintained, and the people of India feel empowered, including the minorities so that these kind of debates after some time will have no meaning at all.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're trying to be everything to everybody?
SACHIN PILOT
We have to be, as a government we have no discrimination, so...
TEESTA SETALVAD
Sachin, the Sacher  report recommended the setting up of an equal opportunities commission which would meet some of these demands to regulate transparency and accountability.
SACHIN PILOT
Can I take slight credit for the fact that it is my party, my government that instituted such a committee, to find out the real facts, to make sure that we have...
TEESTA SETALVAD
That is the problem.
SACHIN PILOT
No, we cannot live in denial, there is a problem in our delivery, that exists for all sections of our society, not just the Muslims - I think you are doing a disservice by bringing out this issue and trying to aggravate the fault lines that exist in our society.
TEESTA SETALVAD
It's you who formulated the subject, not I.
SACHIN PILOT
No, we have got the committee out to have the facts. And the problem is that everyone agrees on the basic objectives of it, how to implement that? The government on India, the Prime Minister has a 15 point programme and that is now on fast track.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Seema Mustafa, and then I'll go back to the questioner.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
The point is that in India the Muslims seek their solutions through secularism and through democracy, there are no special institutions for them. The problem is that because they're not getting a fair deal their ability to find a solution through secularism and through the rule of law is becoming weaker and weaker and that's where the problem really lies, because the system is not allowing the Muslim to find a solution in the secular space because of the spread of communalism and this whole war against terror.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let me just go back to the questioner for the moment. Are you satisfied with what you've heard?
AUDIENCE (M)
Absolutely not sir, answering my question of identifying these institutions, he said there's only one, you called it the Ministry of...
SACHIN PILOT
Minority Affairs.
AUDIENCE (M)
...Minority Affairs, which is run by the government who is proportionally represented more by Hindus.
SACHIN PILOT
I think the way you are putting the question is wrong, and the way even Seema even put the question, as to how many Muslim MPs are there in our parliament, our parliament is 543 strong, so we've had between 30 and 50 MPs who have come from the Muslim community. But the fact that most of our parliamentary constituencies have Muslim populations, and I'm their representative  also, I don't represent a religion or a part of my constituency, I represent every single person.
AUDIENCE (M)
Where is the compensation for this lack of representation in the government?
SACHIN PILOT
There is no representation in the parliament, but in the government jobs ...
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm not talking about the political system, I'm talking about the rest of the important stuff that these communities need: education, economics, job opportunities. Where is the compensation for this lack of representation? Obviously there are different groups so they have different demands.
SACHIN PILOT
Why should they have compensation?  They have equal opportunities, they have equal opportunity to participate, to take up those jobs - we need to make sure that they get the education and they're able get the skill to take...
AUDIENCE (M)
I wonder, at the end of the day, who chooses, the guy who decides who gets the job is, if he works in the government, then he is most likely a Hindu right? And if...
SACHIN PILOT
I don't think you understand this country, we don't work as Hindu and Muslims, we don't interview people thinking if they're Hindu or Muslims. It's about qualifications, if the Muslims are under-qualified then we need to make sure that we have enough strength in them so that they make the cut.
AUDIENCE (M)
That sounds like utopia sir.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Teesta Setalvad.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Sachin, there's about 15 to 17 percent of Muslim males, I'm not talking about females, who make it past higher education, yet you have 2 percent, 5 percent in the higher bureaucracy.  It's not that there are not enough qualified young boys, it's that they're not getting there, they're not getting to positions of powerful governance, that's the point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the lady in the blue blouse, yes, in the fifth row, there.
AUDIENCE (F)
My name is Tania, my question is for Mr. Pilot sir. You made a statement, and I quote: "Every Muslim feels that he's a part of this country", and if that is so then how do you explain situations like Kashmir where on Republic Day the city square is almost empty and nobody wants to hoist the flag because they don't consider themselves Indians? Or would you say that a Muslim, or even if he's not a Muslim, just a man with a beard, who gets checked at the metro station while the man in front of him does not get frisked, just because he does not look Muslim enough. Do you think people like these consider themselves to be getting a fair deal, whether it's government policy or mental stereotypes that are now spreading throughout the population.
SACHIN PILOT
Any type of discrimination, especially the one you've highlighted, have come to the fore post 9/11, there's been an attempt to create an atmosphere where people use this fear psychosis to target the Muslim community and take them on the wrong path. We as a government, and I'm talking just about the government, there is no change in our stance, we believe that everyone has the equal rights, opportunities, civil rights, liberties, freedom, expression, whatever they can get. If there are any instances - it's been brought to people's notice and we can take action to stop those. But it has to be an action on both sides, it can't just be the government, it has to be the society and the people who live along with the government...
TIM SEBASTIAN
The questioner is shaking her head. What do you want the minister to say? What commitments do you want from him?
AUDIENCE (F)
What I mean is, don't you think your speech and your opinions are more about rhetoric and what you think they have a right to do, and in a sense the Muslim population does not necessarily agree with you on all counts. Because evidently we don't see them considering themselves as part of this country as you very blankly said.
SACHIN PILOT
Well, I'm only giving you my opinion, I'm not doing any rhetorics, I'm saying things that I should be saying, I'm only saying what I believe in and I believe that most Muslims in this country have a much better deal in India than they have in any of our neighbouring countries or anywhere in the world.
AUDIENCE (F)
But that's a comparative analysis sir, when you said in your speech that all Muslims considered themselves a part of...
SACHIN PILOT
The Muslims have a fair deal in India, and I'm saying to you: "Yes, they do have a fair deal because they want to make sure they are on an even better deal".
TEESTA SETALVAD
Not as fair as it could be.  It could be much fairer if we lived up to our democracy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
M.J. Akbar you wanted to add to it.
SACHIN PILOT
I take your point, they could be in a much better position, we could be in a much better position vis-à-vis the Muslim situation in our country, but that is not to say there is no attempt or there is no thinking in the government, in society, to make it a better situation.
TEESTA SETALVAD
We're not saying that, we're saying today they are not getting a fair deal, that's the proposition.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to take some questions for this side please, for those who are supporting the motion. Does anybody have a question for this side? You sir, is your question for this side of the motion?
AUDIENCE (M)
You spoke about the, both of you spoke about the need to build a, especially Seema, a credible Muslim leadership and how have, you know have been the stereotypes. You could perhaps argue Dalits, for instance, the rise in political activism among Dalits have, you know, perhaps contributed to greater empowerment in some way. So why is it there is no credible Muslim leadership and how do we build that leadership?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why is there no credible Muslim leadership?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yeah there isn't, because I think after partition Indian Muslims made a very conscious effort to vote for any party and any individual they saw as secular. So at one time the biggest Muslim leader was Jawaharlal Nehru followed by Indira Ghandi and others. There is, unfortunately, the system of patronage, which the ...certain governments and certain political parties have perfected, in the states as well as the centre, of rewarding clerics, of building up Maulanas, of filling the Muslim personal law board with all kinds of people who are then used to suppress the voice of the poor Muslim, of the backward Muslim, and more importantly, or as importantly, of the Muslim woman. The woman has been most discriminated against on grounds of personal law, on grounds of education, and it has been done with the collusion of the political leadership, I don't think this is the place to go into details, but you know that state after state we have seen this. And they all get together, this elite which lives off patronage and the Maulanas and the political parties, and they make sure that credible leadership is not able to emerge.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But why don't Muslims make more use of their enormous voting power? Why don't they ask for the things they want? Why don't they ask for the changes that you have highlighted?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Because the Muslims do do it during the vote, if you notice that in the state governments go and governments come, communal governments at the centre have been voted out because the Muslims have also exercised their franchise.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You would say they've been bought up by the establishment.
M.J. AKBAR
Well I think that's what she was trying hard to defend the indefensible in this matter at least. The fact of the matter is that Indian Muslim leaderships are, I think I wrote somewhere: "We don't have leaders, we have pleaders". We have people who have actually...
SEEMA MUSTAFA
I wasn't defending them.  I was saying they're terrible.
M.J. AKBAR
We have actually a set of leaders, of people who have been pushed into power who could not survive a minute in a rational constituency.  Sachin would get more Muslim votes than they would ever get if they went into a free election. But I really do want to also, on the political issue, because I don't want to be accused of, us as a panel perhaps, of avoiding the question - Kashmir was mentioned. And I think I do want to address it.  What is the problem in Kashmir? The problem in Kashmir is something you cannot take it away, extrapolate it from 1947. What really is the difference between India and Pakistan and what is the battle over Kashmir about?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't want to get too far away from the motion.
M.J. AKBAR
No we don't, but I think it's important if you don't mind.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly, please.
M.J. AKBAR
And this time I won't blame the British. The difference is that Pakistan was created on a two-nation theory. What is the two nation theory? The two-nation theory is simply this, that Sachin and I cannot be equals in one country. India is a product of the one-nation theory, that irrespective of our problems, we may not be equals, you may have advantages, I may have, but we can still live in one country. The problem in Kashmir is that by the definition of the two-nation, extension of the two- nation theory Pakistan claims Kashmir and has been indulging, quite evidently so, in irregular warfare, in terrorism, which has created a reaction, which has compelled our security forces into excesses. We cannot give up Kashmir because every Muslim of India belongs to India as equally as any Hindu of India or Sikh of India belongs to India.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
But how has Pakistan compelled the Indian security forces to arrest innocent people, to victimise them, to torture them in governments, even Congress ruled states like Maharashtra and Utter Pradash hundreds have been arrested and they're all innocent and nobody has been convicted...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hundreds of Muslims.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
... of Muslims - after every terror blast.
M.J. AKBAR
This is absolutely right.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
This is our own doing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But how does this relate to the fair deal that you claim Muslims get in this country?
M.J. AKBAR
But do you know, I think you're missing a point, when we are arguing nobody said a totally fair deal.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're not talking about fair deals. This isn't even remotely fair is it?
M.J. AKBAR
I would be very stupid to say that I'm sitting here and saying that there's a... no, I'm looking it...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you chose that side, much to many people's surprise.
M.J. AKBAR
I chose this side deliberately because I think the situation has evolved to a point where the advantage has shifted in India towards a fair deal, it's a 60/40, 70/30 one.
SACHIN PILOT
To get back to the discussion we are supposed to have today - a gentleman asked me a question about the number of  government jobs and the 2 percent, 3 percent, whatever. My question to you is that you can guarantee government jobs, you can guarantee some affirmative action. But what about Indian society? The top three film stars in India are Muslims, there was a time when four out of 11 members of our cricket team...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we've said this.
SACHIN PILOT
It's important because you cannot guarantee that - the top business people, the scientists, the top academicians, our literature, our ethos, our culture has so much of Islam in it that you cannot say that there is no platform for them to be there. And you cannot guarantee that by government, that has to be a mindset of a nation and that's what's brought to the fore.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, I'm going to take a question from the audience.
AUDIENCE (M)
I think this concept of targeting any particular community and all that, this is not called for because India has one of the most fiercely independent and impartial jury sharing. So nobody dare not target anybody and it does not happen, and our supreme court has been taken even some actions - some of the panellists here are quite aware of it. The Indian legal system today is being headed by the Attorney General for India, who is a Muslim; our Vice President is a Muslim. Culturally and emotionally...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you coming to a question, please? I hope we're moving to a question
AUDIENCE (M)
Whenever a person gets married he hears ‘ bismillah' so therefore bismillah'  continues to inspire and bind an entire nation in the marriage.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you're saying there's no problem.
AUDIENCE (M)
Therefore we have one of the finest constitutions in the world, and our government... I ask myself myself this question, the Sacher Committee  - who appointed the Sacher Committee? It is a government of India which appointed such a committee.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, I'm going to Teesta Setalvad to reply to your question.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Thank you sir for actually supporting what we are saying. I believe that yes, the strongest point is our democracy, our judiciary and our constitution, even if justice comes a bit late, it does come in the end and therefore the victims of the Gujarat genocide are fighting even today. So we have high faith in our judiciary. Having said that I come to your point about cinema, food, sports - it proves our point sir, that wherever Muslims are given a fair level playing field where there is no institutional discrimination like a government office or a PSU where there is no PSE exam, which is a public service exam, where Muslim students will pass the written test but not the viva - because that's where prejudice comes in - that's where the problem lies, we are not saying Indian people are prejudiced, Indian democracy and Indian people can accept Muslims at any level. But somewhere in the structures of governance, prejudice and bias has crept in, this has been made worse by the Hindu right wing infiltration into our agencies, particularly the intelligence agencies. And I think this is something of concern for all Indians, not just Muslims.
M.J. AKBAR
Thank you Teesta 'cause now you are agreeing with us.
TEESTA SETALVAD
No, not at all.
M.J. AKBAR
This is the point we are making, that India is giving Muslims, perhaps later than others, a fair deal. And one of the good things that is happening in India is that India is moving away from the Indian government. The success of the last 15 years, particularly economic growth, derives largely from the fact that we have actually wrenched control of the economy from the Indian government and Indian government has willingly, or unwillingly, surrendered that control. And more and more as we take India away from the Indian government the more and more will the votes swing to our side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is directed to Mr. Sachin Pilot because he's one of the political...
TIM SEBASTIAN
If you could hold the microphone a little closer please.
AUDIENCE (M)
Don't you think that it is not only a contradiction to what you said, but also shameful for [us] as a country that when a big Muslim figure like Shah Rukh Khan one of those three which you mentioned just now, advocated for inclusion of Pakistani players in the IPL, he was deemed a traitor by a certain notorious Raj Thackeray. The shame does not lie in the fact that Mr. Thackeray said that, but it lies in the fact that the top political brass remain quietly, I mean largely quiet, on that matter.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we should explain about Mr. Shah Rukh Khan that he's the most prominent Bollywood star, that he's the owner of the Indian premier league cricket team, and the release of his most recent film, My Name is Khan, coincided with a comment - he said that Pakistani players should be included in India's 20/20 cricket league, which brought him a lot of criticism from the right wing.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Only from the right wing.
M.J. AKBAR
Exactly. It brought him a lot of praise.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Not from all Indians.
SACHIN PILOT
Not at all and I think the point that he is trying to make is a very valid point, that we should not have mixing of politics and sports and he made that statement, he's clarified it. But that fact is they are a very, very small minority.
AUDIENCE (M)
He's clarified his statement because he is intimidated by the parties, not because, I mean, he had to... He was intimidated by Raj Thackeray, that is why he had to withdraw his point.
SACHIN PILOT
The whole of Mumbai has come out on the streets and proven Mr. Thackeray and his uncle, all of them, wrong.  The Shiv Sena and the party that they lead is a bunch of thugs that are trying to intimidate people. It will not happen because the people have come out and proven that they will not tolerate this kind of injustice. In our system you will have, because it's an open democracy, you have a view point, it may be right or wrong, but ultimately it is the people who rule. And it is the institutions that are so strong that will make sure that every individual has a voice, you may not like that voice but it's best to hear that voice and dismiss like the people of Mumbai have shown you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, come back.
AUDIENCE (M)
But what were the top political Rahs doing, I mean I am talking about the political parties not the people in them - I know that people are far more sane than the political parties.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What did you want them to do?
SACHIN PILOT
I think the Shiv Sena has made a laughing stock of itself.
AUDIENCE (M)
Yeah I know, I mean, Shiv Sena does that actively.  But the Congress Party, the BJP, they do that passively, they ignore whatever Shiv Sena is doing.
SACHIN PILOT
How can you say that? If anybody tries to take law into his or her own hands, he'll be dealt with severely. People were arrested when they tried to disrupt the showing of movie, they have a censor, let them decide what movie can be displayed or not.
AUDIENCE (M)
What about Babri then? Where were BJP and Muslim, where were the laws, and the Buddhist people when Babri happened?  Those things keep happening in India.
SACHIN PILOT
The Babri Masjid demolition has been a scar on this nation, it has actually played a big role in dividing some of our communities. But we all believe that justice will be done and I think nothing of that sort will ever be allowed to happen again.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you very much indeed.
TEESTA SETALVAD
The person responsible for the demolition became deputy prime minister.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, just a reminder that the motion that we are discussing tonight is that: ‘This House believes that Muslims aren't getting a fair deal in India'. Gentleman in the third row, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is to Mr. M.J. Akbar, and it's related to a statement where you said that: "After 1992 there have been only two riots in this country". First, I find that statement thoroughly insulting when you say only two, because that is a great reflection on the fact that there have been two, out of which one has been done, probably, in all probability by a state government itself. And my second question is...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You only get one question, I'm sorry. And actually, you've already had one anyway, so please sit down, thank you.
M.J. AKBAR
I repeat, you can take my text and don't put it in context. Before I said this I mentioned how many riots I had personally covered, I mentioned what used to happen in the eighties, I mentioned what happened in our country in the seventies. Those were riots, I mentioned their names, I said: "Compared to that, which shape is India taking?" The fact that two have happened is a shame, it is an absolute shame, the fact that government has been complicit is an appalling shame. But let me tell you, I have seen governments complicit against the Sikh riots, all reported.
AUDIENCE (M)
What about the number of terrorist attacks that have taken place after that, if you're talking about ...
M.J. AKBAR
We were talking about communal riots. And let me tell you that one of the methodologies, one of the sort of expected consequences of communal riots - this is the maturing of India - has been that if you raise the temperature through violence in terrorism, there will be a spill over, communal riot effect. The people of India, when temples were attacked, when Muslims were attacked, Muslims were killed, each time, like the train incident in Bombay, I can think of dozens, when the people of India refused to be provoked by terrorists, did not extend that terrorism into a consequent attack on peoples and populations in major cities which have a history of riots.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Seema Mustafa you want to come in.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
I think communal violence that you are talking about, of the eighties, has been replaced by communal violence around terrorism. You have a very, very vicious fallout every time there is a terror attack. You don't need a riot now to subjugate communities or to have right-wing forces rearing their ugly heads. Because you're able to do it though the system, through the administration, through the police - you're able to legitimise a reaction which is actually insensitive, which is communal, and which is very, very ugly because it creates devisiveness in our society and it creates fear and apprehension amongst communities.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, gentleman with the glasses in the eighth row.
AUDIENCE (M)
I think a lot has been said about the past and about what is happening today: accepted that the past has not been too good for the Muslims, the present is not, but what about the future? What should be done by the leadership, by the Muslim leadership or by the people whom you've put the onus upon Mr. Akbar - what should be done so that Muslims can be brought at par with the present gentry, with the other religions?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Teesta Setalvad.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Four things, I would say four broad things. One is that we need to look at our history and social studies textbooks carefully and make sure that they are free of hate writing and communal bias, they are poisoning young minds because they were brought in by the right-wing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They did change a lot of the books in 2004 didn't they?
TEESTA SETALVAD
A little bit, a little bit.  But state governments haven't, because state government... education is under the state government, so those governments under the BJP have not changed them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Three more points.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Three more points. Second is that the implementation of the policies that the government is undertaking after the Sachar Commission, includes, for instance, all sorts of budgetary provisions they should exchange to other budgetary allocations, but they should ensure, and we, you and I, should make them ensure that they don't deal with the Muslim political, religious leadership. They should be with Muslim womens' groups, self help groups, Muslim professional groups and people like you and me so the government may negotiate with Muslim and non-Muslim civil society so that a new leadership can emerge. And finally, police reform is what we need, we are suffering under a Police Act which is given to us by the British, by a colonial force. What we need is a police force that is self-confident, professional and independent, that has a complaint mechanism within it so that when someone complains of communal bias, or investigation, they can be corrected. Today no public service will be prosecuted.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, can we just get a reaction from the Minister - are those reasonable demands Minister?
SACHIN PILOT
I think what you're saying, I take it with a lot of humility that we should, and we will, act on those, but that does not take away from the main point that today, it is not to say that the Muslims in India have really been given a bad deal. I think that if we do that we'll actually be doing justice, more than justice, and that has to be done in time to come. But, coming back to the main crux of this debate, is whether historically, until today, in 65 years of our independence, has the Indian Muslim been subjugated to injustices, have they been deprived of their rights and civil liberties, and around our whole salvation neighbourhood are they worse off than any other Muslim community in any other country? I think the answer is no.
M.J. AKBAR
There's one point I'd like to add, because I take that question extremely seriously. I  personally feel that Muslims have to stop looking up to government for doles and food.   As long as they continue to do that there will be this sense of angst, there will be the sense of deprivation. Muslims have to learn that they, their future lies with themselves. They have to get a couple of things out, and this is happening by the way. If you look, for example...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So a fair deal is within their grasp is it?
M.J. AKBAR
Within their grasp, but within the literacy rates the rise of feminine literacy, girls' literacy, is much higher among Muslims than any other community. That is showing change and I find that a remarkable fact. There is a push for gender reform, there has to be gender reform in the legislation, which has been openly sabotaged, they have to bring women into the economic force, the economic part of the whole community, powering forward, in the sense that the Bangladeshi Muslims have actually achieved much more.  And for, basically, Indian Muslim leadership there has to a kind of 100 percent make-over from the people that Seema adequately described and there has to be a new...people sitting here have to become the new leaders of Indian Muslims.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Seema Mustafa.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
Yeah, just to add to this Muslim woman, you know the problem in India is that even if Muslim women really want to push themselves they're finding it very, very difficult because under the personal law, which is controlled by the clerics and their political mentors, they are being forced into destitution, they are not being given their rights. Again, this whole elite ruling and the Muslim elite, it plays on their apprehensions, and you know we had this case of Shah Bano, a widowed woman, who went to court, who tried to get justice, the court gave her justice, maintenance, because she was divorced from her earlier husband. And the government, the Congress Government under Rajiv Gandhi, stepped in and brought in a legislation which overturned the Shah Bano judgement and denied that poor, destitute woman the little bit of money that the courts awarded her.
M.J. AKBAR
Less then 300 rupees.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
125 rupees.
M.J. AKBAR
125 rupees, that was all that she was getting.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
So it's very difficult for the woman to fight her way through, even though she wants to.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman right on the far side with the white hat.
AUDIENCE (M)
Sir, that's a turban.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's difficult to see from here.
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is to Mr. Pilot, sir, recently there's been talk of reservation for Muslims.  Do you see that as a matter of giving them a fair deal? And is that the right way of giving them a fair deal?
SACHIN PILOT
Well, the way I look at it is that there should be equal opportunity for everybody and I think the people who deserve it the most are the ones who are economically, socially, educationally, the most backward people. Now, to my mind, it should not make a difference whether the person is a Hindu or a Christian or a Muslim or a Sikh or a Buddhist, as long as they are the ones who deserve the support the most and they must get it. And there is enough affirmative action in our constitution to provide for those. I guess, are they being targeted and are they actually being reached to the people who deserve it the most? And that's where the delivery comes in, so reservation, I think, there are state governments who have taken this, the judiciary has its own view. My personal view is that because a person belongs to A or B religion, that must not be the reason why they should not get the benefits of the government's resources.
M.J. AKBAR
Let me give you a shorter answer: yes.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
I have a problem, I think in this reservation debate all the people who are heading this reservation demand are the, so called, upper-class - upper-caste - Muslims.
M.J. AKBAR
That's not true.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
And they should have reservation for the backward caste amongst the Muslims and the rest of the poor who have come in from the Dalit community and you leave the Brahmin, the Muslim Brahmin, alone. What does he need money, reservation for?
M.J. AKBAR
When you talk of reservations, that is precisely what it means, it doesn't mean for what is called the creamy layer, I don't know, buttery layer, creamy layer, all these phrases we have invented. They are not within the reservation ambit at all, and should not be.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question for this side, those supporting the motion, question for those supporting the motion. Lady in the fourth row.
AUDIENCE (F)
My question is directed toward Teesta. You said that Muslims are not getting a fair deal, particularly in the PSU and administrative sector, otherwise they're represented fairly good in arts, culture, sports, media.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The public service sector you mean?
AUDIENCE (F)
Is that correct, so it's just the PSU's and the administrative sector?...
TEESTA SETALVAD
I was using them as illustrations. What I was saying was that in the fields where the, there's a level playing field, so to speak, where talent can soar, you can see Muslim voices, Muslim musicians, Muslim sportsmen...
AUDIENCE (F)
Which is culture, politics, sports, media, all of these places are represented fairly well?
TEESTA SETALVAD
But wherever there is institutionalised discrimination, which means two things mainly. You can finish.
AUDIENCE (F)
No, that's about it.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Where it means, for instance, getting into government jobs.
SACHIN PILOT
I think what she's saying is it's easier to become a Bollywood superstar but more difficult to be a clerk in the government.
TEESTA SETALVAD
I understand, but I think when it comes... Maybe she's saying that, I don't think she's saying that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Was that, in fact what you were saying?
AUDIENCE (F)
Well, absolutely, that's exactly, because as far as I see it most of the rest of the areas they are being represented fairly well, it's just one particular area that you've been pointing out all throughout the evening that they haven't been, with all your facts and figures and presentations.
TEESTA SETALVAD
I want to tell you that we're not talking about one area, we are talking about police services, army, IES, IEFS, public sector undertakings, and we're talking about, I haven't finished...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you spell out those initials.
TEESTA SETALVAD
Public sector undertakings, PSU's.
AUDIENCE (F)
In arts, culture, media, politics, sports.
TEESTA SETALVAD
I haven't finished, I still want to say I did not bring in, because it's not a time to bring statistics, but if you look at unemployment figures, if you look at education levels, if you look at poverty levels, particularly in urban areas, you'll find the Muslim condition in the last 25 years has become worse.
AUDIENCE (F)
So it's primarily not the problem of Muslims or a particular religion, it has to do with your financial security, or where you are vis-a-vis the poverty line.
TEESTA SETALVAD
It's got to do with whether the government opens schools in those areas, it's got to do with whether the government opens enough schools...
AUDIENCE (F)
Is it specifically for Muslims?
TEESTA SETALVAD
It's worse for Muslims because Dalits have picked up in twenty years. Dalits have picked up through affirmative actions in 40 years compared to Muslims. So today the Muslim condition is somewhere between the Dalit and the OBCs, at the time of partition it was somewhat better than that. So we have to look at relative indicators here and the point remains that poverty, literacy, literacy, 15 percent of males are behind and almost 35 percent of females, though they are surging ahead, Muslim women, girls are still behind compared to other girls.
SEEMA MUSTAFA
The point is that you don't get representation in government just out of the air, there has to be a support system which starts from the primary level and goes up to higher education. I mean just the Rajinder Sacher Committee stats...
AUDIENCE (F)
You know, I wish I was armed with facts and figures of other religious representations as well, I mean since we're talking just about Muslims right now so you guys...
SEEMA MUSTAFA
There is...
TEESTA SETALVAD
The debate today is about Muslims.
AUDIENCE (F)
That is being pinpointed at this time, my point is that there is marginalisation of people because of money, because of them being below the poverty line.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think you made that point and I think they answered it, thank you very much. I'm going to take a final question
from the lady in the fifth row there.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening, my question is addressing the proposition side. Ladies, what do you mean by Muslims are not being represented fairly? If we're talking numbers, don't you think that it's kind of fair that Hindus being more represented in PR service, services jobs, in the administration itself more than Muslims. What do you think about that?
SEEMA MUSTAFA
The point is also what is the percentage of population? The Muslim population in the country is anywhere between 13 to 16 percent, and we're talking about the government jobs because those are indicators of how the system is looking after them. Here you have, again in the Sacher Committee, only 3 percent are in the Indian administrative service, only 1.8 percent Muslims are in the Indian foreign service, and only 4 percent are in the Indian police service. And there are intelligence agencies in India, which we have written about as journalists, which have a rule, an undeclared rule, that they will not employ Muslims. So there is a prejudice that runs down the line, and it is getting worse. The problem is that after 9/11 and this whole war against terror, the discrimination is growing, and, like Teesta pointed out, you had the Dalits, through affirmative action, improving a bit, and now you have another community, a huge community, your largest minority in India, coming down to come at par with the Dalits.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you made your point. Minister Sachin Pilot.
SACHIN PILOT
It's a little bit unfair for the Muslims to make this debate only about a few government jobs and what percentage, is it proportional to the population or not. But I think if you have in this country the freedom and the opportunity for the Muslims to become presidents, chief justices, government officers, chief ministers, governors, central ministers, the best artists, India's missile programme is headed by a Muslim. So these are not just tokenisms and symbolisms, the fact is that everybody has an opportunity, to say that there is a...
TIM SEBASTIAN
M.J. Akbar has written that they're tokenisms for a long time haven't you?
SACHIN PILOT
But that was when he was writing a book, not debating. Today I'm saying to you that there is no institutionalisation of discrimination against Muslims and that's the topic of the debate and I'm completely against that.
M.J. AKBAR
The book was in 1984 and since then the siege of India and siege of Indian Muslims has moved a very long way. I only want to end on one thing, [which] is that when you look at the facts, there are no facts which are completely black and completely white, it's absurd, the reality is a mixture of colours and there's some things right with what they've said, and I hope, more things right than said. But if we get a vested interest in the negative, let me tell you that if you get a vested interest with the negative it's very easy to fall in love with the negative. If you get a vested interest in the negative you never find either the truth or the future.

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen we've come to the point in the proceedings, we're going to vote on the motion that: ‘This House believes Muslims aren't getting a fair deal in India'. Would you take please your voting machines, and I'll just explain to you how they work.  If you want to vote for the motion, that is the side represented by those on my right you press button one, if you want to vote against the motion, that is the side represented by those on my left, it's button two. Whichever button you want to press would you press it now, you only have to press once. Due to the miracles of modern science your vote will be communicated immediately to our computers and we should have the result for you in about 15 seconds.  All right, here is the vote coming up, in favour of the motion 37.9 percent, against the motion 62.1 percent, so the motion has been resoundingly defeated. All it remains for me to do is to thank our distinguished panellists, thank you very much for coming tonight. Thank you to you, the audience, for your questions. The Doha Debates will be back again next month in its home base in Doha, so till then from all of us on the team have a safe journey home. Thanks for coming, good night.