This House believes education is worthless without freedom of speech

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates coming to you from the Gulf State of Qatar and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation.  Despite what they say in some cultures, school isn't always the happiest time of your life.  Instead of being encouraged to explore, question and innovate, young people can often be fed hatred and prejudice; their learning restricted by censorship and government propaganda.  Such is the reality in many parts of the world and here too in the Middle East.  When it comes to free speech, there are of course no absolutes.  All states restrict information, but what we're asking tonight is this: where governments censor educational material for political reasons or to push a particular ideology or a distorted version of history; where key facts are consistently omitted because they're inconvenient or deemed sensitive; where criticism of rulers, or ruling parties, is stifled: can this type of education have any value at all?  Well, our motion tonight: This House believes education is worthless without freedom of speech, and as usual our panellists come at the topic from very different points of view.  Speaking for the motion, Dennis Hayes, Founder of ‘Academics for Academic Freedom' and Professor of Education at the University of Derby in the UK.  And with him, Tariq Ramadan, Professor of Contemporary Islamic Studies at Oxford University.  He's also Visiting Professor at the Faculty of Islamic Studies here in Qatar.  Speaking against the motion, Nagla Rizk, Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research at the School of Business at the American University in Cairo.  She's also Affiliate Scholar at the Yale Law School, and with her, Kevin Watkins.  He's director of the ‘Education for all Global monitoring report' led by UNESCO and a senior visiting research fellow at the Global Economic Governance Programme at Oxford University.  A lot of titles there.  Ladies and gentlemen, that's our panel.  And now let me start by asking Dennis Hayes to speak for the motion.

DENNIS HAYES
When you're listening to discussions on freedom of speech, the important thing is to listen for the small words.  The word I would advise you to look for is 'but'.  You'll always hear this sentence: "I'm in favour of freedom of speech but ..." and then will come a list of people whose freedom of speech you don't want to hear, and this will be as extensive as the people you're talking to, whether they include racists, Fascists, Islamic extremists, homosexuals, homophobes, people who, not so long ago it was women who joined that list as people who weren't able to discuss, or they didn't want to hear their views.  Now, somebody called Amira on the Facebook group for The Doha Debates said that Doha had lost the plot and this wasn't really an interesting debate and I just want to point out, I don't know if she's here, but she's entirely wrong.  Because I often tease students in British universities with the statement that it's easier to find a defender of Al Qaeda, at times, particularly at times of panic in British universities than it is to find your defender of free speech, and I want to make the case for free speech in a way you may not have heard before.  Free speech has to be defined, and when we talk about free speech we're talking about rational speech, the ability to argue, probe, question, criticise, that's what free speech means.  Free speech is just not one freedom amongst other freedoms.  It's the foundational freedom.  If you don't have freedom of speech, all your other freedoms mean nothing. But people misunderstand constantly the importance of freedom of speech, and it's not about having racists, Islamic extremists or anyone airing their views.  It's about you, the audience, whether the audience is here in this auditorium, whether it's a classroom, a lecture or seminar.  It's about having confidence in you as human beings to make up your own mind and not be told what to think by anybody in authority or by anybody on this panel.  It's a great faith in human beings, and I have utter faith in your ability to be rational and to make a decision that is based on the evidence on what you've heard.  What I don't want to do is not allow you to hear and not to make up your own mind, because education that takes place like that is not education.  When education begins it begins by trying to get people to be critical from the first moment.  If that doesn't happen, then it's not education you have, it's training.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could I ask you to wind up please?
DENNIS HAYES
You're being trained in a way that's no different than animals.  So when you vote, and I hope this time we get a hundred percent, you're voting for the motion, for your own humanity as human beings.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dennis Hayes, thank you very much indeed.  Where is this dreamland, this Utopia, where free speech exists and where you don't have to battle for it, where there are no 'buts'?  Not in Britain, surely.
DENNIS HAYES
It's certainly not in Britain.  The price of free speech is constant vigilance; you have to constantly fight the battle...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So why are you engaged in this worthless educational process in Britain, if there's no free speech there.  Why don't you resign now and give it up?
DENNIS HAYES
I'm sure that's what my vice chancellor might say: "Why do you keep raising objections?"  Because someone has to do this Socratic job.  Remember the case of Socrates; there is a model to us all...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but my point is, it's a battle everywhere, isn't it?
DENNIS HAYES
Of course
TIM SEBASTIAN
So, why should the battle be worth any less in different places?
DENNIS HAYES
It isn't.  I'm quite happy to fight the battle anywhere.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But then there's no free speech, so you're engaged, I come back to my point, you're engaged in a worthless educational process, because you have to battle.
DENNIS HAYES
That just doesn't follow.  You have to battle, that's what education's about, and battle in this sense means raising objections.
TIM SEBASTIAN
If free speech doesn't exist anywhere, then the educational process...
DENNIS HAYES
I never said free speech doesn't exist. I said you have to be constantly vigilant...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tell me where it is.
DENNIS HAYES
Well, it exists here, is you take my point, which is it exists in the minds of the audience, it exists in their minds, in the ability for them, for everybody in this audience, to make their own minds ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's a bit airy-fairy isn't it?
DENNIS HAYES
Well, that's the thing, we have a depressing view of human beings now, that they're not up to it. And it's often minority groups in Britain, whether you're a Muslim student or black, it's you who are told you can't make up your mind, so somebody who's white has to tell you what you should hear.  That's not acceptable.  The whole of humanity can make up its mind, there aren't specific groups that should be banned from making up their own mind, because somebody in power or authority says: "I'll make up my mind for you."
TIM SEBASTIAN
But what are students supposed to battle for here if freedom of speech actually doesn't exist anywhere, in the terms of which you are talking about it?
DENNIS HAYES
Well, freedom of speech I would say is under threat in every single university for different reasons.  Often now it's not the clash of ideas in a threatening way, it's the idea that you must teach people with respect, so basically you learn not to say anything, so the silence that leads you to a therapeutic approach to free speech, you end up, if I say something that you find offensive, then I'm put into counselling rather than argued with.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Dennis Hayes, we have to leave it there, thank you very much indeed.  Could I ask now Nagla Rizk please to speak against the motion.

NAGLA RIZK
Thank you.  This is not about defending freedom of speech.  At this end of the table we are as committed to freedom of speech as anyone in this audience or on the panel.  This is about the worthiness of education or absolute total lack thereof in the absence of free speech.  It is not even about the extent of worthiness.  Education is either worthy or worth zero, in the absence of freedom of speech and that is why I am on this side of the motion.  I am here to defend education.  I am here because of my education.  I come from Egypt; I was born and raised in Egypt.  I come from a family of doctors who were educated in Egypt and for years they have been treating women, men and children of their ailments. You want to tell me that this education is worthless?  Some of the members of this very audience, many come from repressive societies; has their education been worthless?  I argue that education is at the heart of planting the seed that will indeed bring about an intellectual capital and reservoir of knowledge and human will, that will turn to change things around, and that will create the very freedoms that they see around them restricted.  Education is a catalyst of change.  Where do Egyptian bloggers come from?  What about Tunisian techies who break the rules of internet censorship and find uncensored sites and share it with the world; through the education that they have learnt, and through this, democratising technologies that are everywhere around us.  What about women who learn to read and write and as they do that, learn to speak up against their abusers in Egyptian society and I witness this first-hand.  You want to tell me that their education has been worthless?  Indeed what's wrong with training that helps somebody find a job, provide for his or her basic needs, make a living for the family, promote dignity and self-esteem, indeed bringing to life Amartya Sen's notion of development as freedom.  Is this education worthless?  What's wrong with that?  Education creates freedoms and promotes human development.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you come to a close please.
NAGLA RIZK
In Africa 22 million people are living with HIV AIDS.  In that situation, freedom of speech is worthless without education, for alleviating poverty and treating ailments.  Voting for the motion is not defending freedom of speech.  In fact voting against the motion is indeed congruent with freedom of speech.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nagla Rizk, thank you very much indeed.  You seem to believe that free speech is a sort of optional extra, you can manage without it in education somehow, but what's the message to people here that: "It's okay, you have a good education but actually the free speech is a little bit of icing on the cake."
NAGLA RIZK
Well, you have a good education and the value of education is belief in the innate capacity of people to turn things around.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, but would the Arab world be doing a lot better, and a lot of other regions in the world, if they had free speech?
NAGLA RIZK
Other things being constant, other things being the level of development, poverty ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, it's a fact, they would, wouldn't they?  There would be entrepreneurs, they would invent more, they would be more innovative, wouldn't they?  You said so yourself; you're co-author of the 2009 Arab Knowledge Report.
NAGLA RIZK
There's nothing wrong with that.  This does not mean that education is worth zero.  It is about the worthlessness of education.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So a society that in your report is described as a one-dimensional vision that rejects change, creativity and innovation, is still a valuable education process?
NAGLA RIZK
Of course, education process will promote innovation and will bring about freedom of speech...
TIM SEBASTIAN
"An education system rejecting change, creativity and innovation is still valuable."  How is that possible?
NAGLA RIZK
Out of that system I have belief in the individual capacity to ask questions.  I am a product of that system and I am here now.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Individual capacity is different from the education, isn't it?  You are talking about two different things.  People do things in spite of their education, not necessarily because, don't they?
NAGLA RIZK
Given the education, given everything around them, they will change; these are people who are exposed.  This is not living in some ‘la-la land', this is reality and these are people exposed to the technologies around them and they will bring change.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And the philosopher A. C. Grayling who said: "Without free speech there cannot be genuine education and research," you reject that, do you?
NAGLA RIZK
Well, another philosopher said that education creates freedom.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it's your philosopher against my philosopher, is it?  An educational system rejecting change, creativity and innovation, you still think that's a valuable system.
NAGLA RIZK
I still think given other things being constant, promoting freedom will promote worthiness of education, other things being constant.  Freedom of speech is neither necessary nor sufficient to bring worthiness of education.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.  Nagla Risk, thank you very much indeed.  Now could I ask please Tariq Ramadan to speak for the motion.

TARIQ RAMADAN
Yes.  I'm supporting this motion exactly because I think that this black-and-white attitude by saying: "Oh, it's not worthless because it's not zero" is problematic.  We have to ask ourselves what are the objectives of education, and this is the main discussion here, the objective of education is to promote knowledge, and knowledge is part of the freedom.  The second thing is understanding, because knowledge without understanding this something which is problematic.  This is the useful knowledge that we have even in the Islamic tradition and we have to say to the people that this is very much the Islamic rules of everything that we are saying but it's universal, and then to get what, at the end, what do we want?  Do we want autonomous beings, being able to think for themselves, to be autonomous and to act in the name of the knowledge that they are gaining, and I think that at the end, what you are saying and what could be understood is that: "Oh yes, of course education is always good but there could be an education which is distorted as to the principles and you support the system spreading knowledge without critical thinking," and at the end critical thinking is to be able to speak, is to be able to criticise, is to be able to question, is to be able to contest and to say: "I am free to say whatever I want," so the very essence of education should protect this dimension.  If not, it's a distorted education, and it could be counter-productive, producing parrots and sheep following the system being able to say, and this is the problem that we have, why don't we have change in the Muslim authority countries; because very often we repeat, it's an education about repeating what is said - no critical thinking, no creativity. So this is the problem, it's not black-and-white, it's something which comes to the essence of education and comes to this freedom of expression is the way you are giving me the means for me to be free, so be dignified, to be a human being, and this is where I can change the society. Because at the end what we want is really this, to be educated, to be dignified, and to change the society, to reform the society for the better ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you wrap it up please.
TARIQ RAMADAN
... not an education that is supporting the system: we give you something to think with, but nothing to change the world with, and this is for me something which is important and out of all the education that you can promote with this system is a lack of courage.  You know what we need today: students in the Muslim authority countries, but also in the West, having autonomy and courage to challenge the opinions of even the government.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tariq Ramadan, thank you very much indeed.  No autonomy and courage among the students out here? You don't find that anywhere, the students that you teach?
TARIQ RAMADAN
I want them to be more courageous and I want them to be... all of us, you and me, we have to be much more courageous, to be able to stand for our thoughts and then to promote a system in the end... you were asking the question about our teaching in Britain, for example, or here.  At the end of the day, it's not by criticising and being passive with the system that we are going to change it; it's to be involved within it...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is it any better in the West than it is here?  I mean, people who think they're getting the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the West, they wake up disappointed to find actually it wasn't any truer than anywhere else.
TARIQ RAMADAN
No because with your question we are in a black-and-white attitude.  We have many things to reform in the West.  You know, when you tell to the people in the West: "You are free to decide whatever you want," and they don't have a knowledge of history. You are free to be religious or not religious - no religious education, religious illiteracy and you are free; that's the wrong...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So education's pretty bad everywhere?
TARIQ RAMADAN
No, no, no, no...I'm saying that religious education could be better everywhere, which is not exactly the pessimist attitude ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And better with what?  What's the message to people out here who have to live with restrictions in this region, what's your message?
TARIQ RAMADAN
No, the message for every one of us, and especially in Muslim authority countries and in the Middle East, is in being involved in education by reforming the system and helping the students to be able to speak and to speak out and to be free to speak out.  This is the very essential education.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tariq Ramadan, thank you very much indeed.  And now let me please ask Kevin Watkins to speak against the motion.

KEVIN WATKINS
Well, I'm starting off by wondering whether Dennis and Tariq have turned up for the wrong debate.  The proposition that we're discussing is that education is worthless without the freedom of speech.  Bear that word in mind, 'worthless'.  It means no value, worth nothing.  If something is worthless, you can just give it up, somebody can take it away from you.  Now, I say to all of you in this audience who are studying, maybe in countries that don't have freedom of speech: is your education worthless?  Would you give it up?  Does it mean nothing to you? Because if it means something to you, you reject this nonsense.  This isn't about better education or worse education.  The proposition is that education is worthless.  Now, I want to give you a few reasons why you should reject it.  Point 1:  You're being offered false goods here.  The argument that our opponents want to put to you is that unless you've got freedom of speech, your education doesn't mean anything.  This is the meaning of the word 'worthless'.  What I say to you is demand both of them.  Demand your freedom of speech and demand your right to education because they're both in the universal declaration of human rights, they're both your entitlement, you don't give one up because someone wants to sell you false goods.  Nelson Mandela said: "Education is the most powerful tool that you've got to change the world."  If you don't like your education system, if you don't like your government, use your education to go and change it.  Another point:  this word 'worthless', I work on Africa mainly, I work on education in Africa, the difference in child death rates in Africa between women with secondary education and women with no education is a factor of four.  Raising the level of education of everyone, of all women in Africa, to get to secondary level would save 2 million lives.  Worthless?  I don't think so.  That depends on a value you put on a life, the price you put on human dignity, the price you put on ambition.  Here's the last reason I want you to reject this motion.  In the last month I've spoken to people in a slum in Nairobi called Kibera, I've spoken to kids in North Kivu in the Democratic Republic of Congo.  These aren't societies where people have freedom of speech.  But those parents and those kids are struggling every single day to get their kids into school.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you wrap up please.
KEVIN WATKINS
Now I will put to you, you don't vote for a motion that would deny to other people precisely the right to education that you secured in your own life.  That would be hypocrisy.  You need to reject this motion.  Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Kevin Watkins, thank you very much indeed.  Isn't it all very well for you to say: "Demand your freedom and demand your education" at the same time, easy for you to say, not so easy for them, is it?
KEVIN WATKINS
Well, people do fight for their rights. 
TIM SEBASTIAN
Be realistic, they're not going to get both, are they?
KEVIN WATKINS
Well, let's be realistic.  Let me answer the question.  Kids in Soweto in the mid-1970s fought against apartheid; that was school kids who led that struggle.  If Dennis or Tariq had been advising them, they would have said: "No, no, don't fight for the right for a decent education, wait until somebody gives you the freedom of speech ... "
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you know from the report, that you worked on as well, the Arab Knowledge Report, that in many cases the education that is available in this region is not an asset, it's an obstacle, isn't it?
KEVIN WATKINS
It's absolutely shocking, and that is why all of us should be working to change it.  It's why students here, as Tariq rightly says, should have the courage of their convictions and work for change.  It's why my organisation should be far more vigorously engaged in debates for change and trying to promote ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And what does it say to you, that not one Arab university is in the world's top hundred, that their education is valuable? Is it leading them in the right direction? Is this a valuable education?
KEVIN WATKINS
If you're asking me whether all education in Arab states should be wrapped up because it doesn't need certain standards that we would all like to see it meet, the answer is no.  We should be fighting to improve it.  There are plenty of universities in the UK that I would say produce pretty shoddy goods in terms of what they deliver to students; do I want to close them down?  No.  I want to improve them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What about Saudi schools that were recently in the news in the UK, for instance, for putting out text books and one of the text books asked children to list the 'reprehensible qualities of Jewish people' for instance.  Another text asked: what happens to somebody who dies who is not a believer in Islam - hell-fire the answer is given. Is that part of a valuable education process or what?
KEVIN WATKINS
You're hanging the wrong charges on me.  My organisation works across the world for developing curricula, working with progressive scholars and educators to challenge exactly that sort of poisonous education.  Do I think it's valuable to poison the minds of young kids?  Absolutely not, of course not.  It should be stopped, it should be stopped tomorrow.  If that case that you cite is correct, the Saudi government should be ashamed of itself, they should take those books out of circulation and it should get its act in order and do it differently.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Kevin Watkins, thank you very much indeed.  I'm going to throw this open now.  It's time for you, the audience, to put your questions: "This House believes education is worthless without freedom of speech", that's the motion we're discussing tonight.  Gentleman in the front row; you, sir.  We'll get a microphone to you please. If you could say where you are from please.

AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Palestine.  My name is Hassan.  I will give my question to Dr. Nagla.  The first question ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Just one question per person, there are a lot of people here.
AUDIENCE (M)
What kind of education are you talking about in Egypt?  What have you done for Egypt for freedom?  What kind of freedom are you talking about in Egypt?
NAGLA RIZK
Thank you.  I am talking about freedom in all of its layers. I am talking about political freedom.  Look what the bloggers are doing.  One blogger in jail, everybody goes on line and creates a buzz around the world.  I am talking about freedom that is home-grown, that is organic, that is not imposed from above by some agenda.  I'm talking about social freedom that women and others find for themselves as they learn and get an education.  I am talking about taking off the social taboos, I am talking about education where female genital mutilation is questioned and reduced among educated women.  That's the kind of education I talk about.
AUDIENCE (M)
What education that you never work your brain with it.  Its just the same education every year with every student?  What is the education about that?
NAGLA RIZK
It is an education that allows somebody with a high school degree to get a job, and when he or she ...
AUDIENCE (M)
What degree?  What have you done for the poor people in Egypt?
NAGLA RIZK
The poor people out of an education can find a job.  It is not, you cannot solve all ills.  However education...
AUDIENCE (M)
You haven't worked your brain ...
NAGLA RIZK
Working your brain is a luxury when you cannot feed your kids.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, let's take a question, the gentleman in the second row, thank you.  Where are you from please?
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Qatar.  So, freedom of speech is a part of humankind, it's a part of human right; you cannot ignore that, you can't escape it, it's just not worthless.  Because it's all in our society because we can't say that freedom of speech is ignored, because it is a part of us, that's what I'm trying to explain, because I'm debating and it is my passion to debate because debate is a freedom of speech.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what's your question?
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is, I'm 15 years old, when do you think we should bring debates in schools?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tariq Ramadan, would you like to take that?
TARIQ RAMADAN
Yes.  I think that you are 15 years old and I think it's already time, and you are a good example of what should be done and to promote that.  The point, let me just say something about this question. We are not here talking about the value of education, we all agree on what you are saying; the problem is that if we don't give you space or a possibility for you to talk and to wake up and to have a critical mind, to question what is said by the teacher, I think that this is where education could be counter-productive.  You are going to repeat what the teachers are saying, so this is when we have to start, 12 years old.  Even before that.  You have to speak as much as you can and to listen to what they have to say.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nagla Rizk.
NAGLA RIZK
Tariq, where is your belief in the innate capacity of the human intellect?  You yourself spoke about the capacity of the human intellect.  Are they sheep, you're going to teach students and they're not going to think for themselves on their own?  Do they await an exogenous freedom of speech from their teacher?  There is faith in the human intellect; I question, I learnt wrong facts in History - I went and read and looked for sources to see how true this is.
TARIQ RAMADAN
Yes, but the point is not this.  You are reducing all your discussions to say: "Oh, let us speak about this term 'worthless'. It's not 'worthless,' education, when at the end we are missing the objective, which is autonomous human beings, being able to criticise, to question and to contest ...  It's not even worthless, it's counter-productive.  It's an education of people not being able to change and when our friend asks the question: "What is done in Egypt?" this is where the civil society... because we don't have people as teachers working from within, saying the system is not helping us to resist the authoritarian regime.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Kevin Watkins.
KEVIN WATKINS
Let me say, I've got huge respect for Tariq, because I live in the UK and Tariq has done an extraordinary job in challenging prejudice and bigotry, in my country, about Islam.  But Tariq, I have to tell you the ‘but'.
TARIQ RAMADAN
This is the ‘but' you were talking about.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we let him have his ‘but'.
KEVIN WATKINS
There are no ‘buts' with our side on the freedom of speech, but here's a problem for you.  You're complaining that we're discussing a motion, which is about the worthlessness of education.  Well, here's the bad news, that's the proposition you're defending.  You're defending the proposition that education is worthless in societies where you don't have freedom of speech.  Now, if it's worthless, you can take it away, wrap it up.  Unfortunately that's the meaning of the word.  Now, I recognise, Tariq, that you would much rather be on this side of the table than that side.  The bad news is, you're on the wrong side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  He seems to be perfectly happy on that side.  We'll take a question from the gentleman in the second row. 
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you.  I'm from Qatar University.  My question to the side opposing the idea that education is more important.  My question: What is the outcome of the education without freedom of speech in the Arab world, when you look at the quality of students we have in the classes? I am a person who taught in three universities in the world, one of them Harvard, and now I'm proud of being part of Qatar University.  The quality of students I saw in Harvard, Durham, Jordan universities, and Qatar University, well, it's a huge difference. The main thing I found is the freedom of speech.  Without that freedom of speech, there is no education in reality; there is no education. So basically what I say to you, education is not itself as important, we need to look at the freedom of the speech.  The quality of education always depends on how much you have platform to speak, to question and to argue, and you are focusing...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let's have Nagla Rizk answer that, yes.
NAGLA RIZK
I too taught at Harvard and I have news for you.  Some of the students in Egypt are excellent, and I'm not taking about students who come from foreign schools.  I am talking about students who come from the Egyptian schools, who get a scholarship to go to the American University.  That is the kind of students I mean.  To argue that the quality of students across the board is poor is, I would say, a false statement.  These are the students in the Arab world; we talk of 'brain drain' - tell me, where do these brains come from? When our doctors go to England and excel, or go to the States and are Nobel Prize winners, what are they a product of?  They are a product of our universities.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him answer those points.  He wants to come back.
AUDIENCE (M)
Actually you are a Doctor yourself.  Those who are nothing in our region, when they go abroad, they become brilliant.  Why?  Because there is freedom of speech.  I'll give you an example.  One of my students asked me: "What do you think about the Arab-Israeli conflict?"  In Britain, I can answer whatever I want, freely, without any kind of concerns, but in the case when I was in Jordan for example, I taught the same course, I have to be very careful in my words, so basically it's very important, freedom of speech is our oxygen.
NAGLA RIZK
Can I respond to him?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes please, go ahead.
NAGLA RIZK
Again, we are arguing the wrong motion.  This is not about more freedom of speech, more worthiness of education.  This is not an ideal scenario.  I'll go back to the ‘brain-drain'.  Is it an ideal scenario?  No.  But is this an outcome of our own educational system: yes, for better or for worse.  These are people who have been educated in this country.  Not everybody leaves.  Some of them are still around and some of them are the ones who are curing the ill and the problems of poverty that we actually have.
AUDIENCE (M)
What about the production?
NAGLA RIZK
Pardon?
TIM SEBASTIAN
How much productivity, I think he means.
AUDIENCE (M)
Look at how much you find - the articles, papers, books, in journals of the world.
NAGLA RIZK
It is not zero, it is not zero, it exists.  The outcome of Arab knowledge is in the Arab Knowledge Report and that is a key to the ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the second row.  You, sir.  Where are you from?
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Lebanon.  Bloggers are a product of freedom of speech.  Do you honestly think these bloggers are purely based on the education clause?  In Egypt many are doctors, as you said, but do they work in their professions? Due to power and corruption going hand-in-hand, passivity is an issue.  How do you respond?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Kevin, would you like to take that?
KEVIN WATKINS
Well, I would.  I'm getting this sort of slight sense that we're losing sight of what this proposition is about.  If you want us on this side of the table to challenge the proposition, that freedom of speech is the life-blood of any democracy, and the life-blood of any education system, I'm really sorry, that's not what we're arguing for on this side of the table.  You know, freedom of speech and education are not either/or options; these are two fundamental human rights, they go together, one and the other.  They're mutually reinforcing. Now, the problem is, they don't always go together, precisely, but it is the argument then, that given that some societies are restricting freedom of speech, let's wrap up the education system because it's worthless.  That's what we're supposed to be debating.  And I have to tell you, you know, if you think of images of protest down the years, how many times has it been students who are on the front line, challenging dictators and autocrats.  Now, you know, we all have to fight every day for freedom of speech, it's an absolute given.  Freedom of speech without education is diminished on both sides of the equation, but these are not either/or options.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tariq Ramadan, you want to come in.
TARIQ RAMADAN
Look, why I'm on this side of the panel and against what you are saying. Once again, you keep on repeating: "Education is worthless and we have to wrap it up".  This is not what we are saying.  Of course education is good but not without the objective of education and to be radical on the fact that we want an educational system helping our students and our kids to be critical and to challenge the system. We are not going to change anything in the Muslim authority countries and help our students to be critical in the West as well.  This is the nature, the quality of education and you keep on repeating about the fact that it is worthless, it's the quality of education...
KEVIN WATKINS
Tariq, what I keep repeating is merely the proposition that you're defending.  Now, you can shift the goal posts as much as you want.  The proposition that you're defending is that education is worthless without freedom of speech.  I believe in the quality of education.
TARIQ RAMADAN
It is..
KEVIN WATKINS
I believe in freedom of speech.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Brief point please, brief point.
KEVIN WATKINS
Given that education is worthless in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, a few other places, Democratic Republic of Congo, Sudan, let's wrap up the education system, because the word 'worthless' means 'no value'.  No value means that when it's taken away, you don't miss it.   This is a proposition to violate the basic human right to an education...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Dennis Hayes, come in.
DENNIS HAYES
In answer to the 15-year-old, who asked the question, a really important one, it's never too early to start debate, and you can start it in your schools. And one thing you'll learn if you have debates for and against, every teacher should be doing, and I would blame the teachers, by the way, rather than the students, because they should be giving you the space to debate, and if they don't, you set up debates of your own; and then you won't do what the opposition has done - play with words and change the meaning of the motion. It just doesn't mean what they said. Behind your view is a clear view that somehow you pack information into students and one day they'll pop, and burst into freedom of speech and criticality and change the world.  It's not going to happen.  They'll just become blocked like a drain, right.  Information is no good.  It's the illusion of the information age: that you just give people information without critical thinking and ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what's the message then?  Scrap your education system, don't turn up for school.
DENNIS HAYES
No.  The message everywhere, I've organised debates now for six years in British schools where there is a dearth of debate, and where you should go and learn to put arguments for and against, whatever position it is, learn to think, learn to be critical and stand on your own two feet.
TIM SEBASTIAN
What do you want them to do with their educational system?
DENNIS HAYES
What I want them to do, as a minimum, if they can't speak, is to feel guilty about not speaking, and wherever possible, speak your mind.  That is your job as a student and as a lecturer - speak your mind.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nagla Rizk.
NAGLA RIZK
I want to answer the young man who spoke about the Egyptian bloggers.  They are not a product of freedom of speech.  They are a product of education.  They are challenging restrictions on freedom of speech.  The way our opponents argue is that freedom of speech is positively related to the worthiness of education.  I don't disagree, I agree, other things being constant.  The motion is not about that.  The motion is about the starting point: zero freedom of speech, zero worthiness; and I argue, it's not at the origin, it's at an intercept.  You do have positive worthiness of education despite restrictions on freedom of speech.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Gentleman in the front row in the blue pullover.    
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you.  I'm from Iraq.  Education is definitely worthless without free speech, and it's equally worthless to talk about education in the Arab world without putting it into context.  There are some of the most oppressive regimes in the Arab world; our best friends of the most self-professed democracies in the West, particularly the United States.  So I think it's important to put that into context, and as well put into context a legacy of colonialism and of destroying civil society in the Arab world where education does come out of as well.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've attacked everybody there.
AUDIENCE (M)
Of course, yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Are you coming to a point there?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes.  With regards to freedom of speech, however, what's the importance of individual freedom of speech without there being collective freedom of speech?  How important is it for me as a student, to say I oppose Israeli apartheid, without having the ability to organise on my campus, to boycott Israeli apartheid.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tariq Ramadan
TARIQ RAMADAN
Yes, I really want to thank you for that because it's not only to be critical towards all the systems, but this is where we have to be today; to be able in the West to be critical towards the educational systems because very often we have a problem also with critical thinking and even the information. What is taught in our schools in the West is also to be challenged, and it's not only a question of students, it's a question of students and teachers and professors, all should be involved.  It's a social discussion that we need.  And the second point, which is important, is, with the educational system, we need to talk about what is happening in all our societies.  The great danger in our society today, the greatest danger in our society is really populism, and populism is exactly the opposite of what we are taking about now.  It's a lack of critical thinking, and education promoting populism and not critical thinking, is a danger. So I would say that really education leading us towards this in the West or in the Middle East or everywhere it's something that we have to oppose and to resist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Kevin Watkins, you want to come in here?  You've been scribbling furiously.
KEVIN WATKINS
No, there's a few interesting observations there.  You know that I work for an organisation that defends journalists who are under attack in countries like Iraq and other places. I work for an organisation that is deeply committed to freedom of speech and an organisation that is deeply committed to trying to work to improve education quality around the world.  I don't dispute a single word that Tariq just said.  Of course ...
TARIQ RAMADAN
Hear hear!
KEVIN WATKINS
...we are all in favour of critical thinking in universities.  That is what education should be about, that is the purpose of education.  It's that sort of critical thinking that gives people the capacity to imagine different futures when they're living under dictatorships.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're shaking your head. Which bit of that do you disagree with there?
AUDIENCE (M)
If anybody's been to a university lately, they're increasingly becoming isolated, elitist spaces where there is absolutely very little and very limited connection to real grass-root movements. Throughout the world historically revolutionary movements haven't only come from masters or PhDs.  They've come from farmers, people that have lived on the street, people that have never read a book in their lives as well, so education without the freedom of speech to change societies, is absolutely worthless.  
KEVIN WATKINS
This isn't a debate.  I agree with you.   The sort of education that's being described is not something that anyone on this side of the table...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You want to play musical chairs.  We all sit on everybody else's sides.
KEVIN WATKINS
The issue here is, and I want to talk directly to the audience on this, the proposition that you're debating is on the screen there: "This House believes education is worthless without freedom of speech."  Now, I work with people around the world, with women, who are desperately trying to get their kids into school, because they believe in education.  They don't believe in a sort of education that Tariq is holding up.  They believe in an education that's going to create opportunities and a future for their kids.  You want to vote to take that away from them; that's the right you're challenging, so you don't sort of create a new motion in your minds and vote on your imagination.  Vote on the real motion.
AUDIENCE (M)
One last point.  Poverty in Africa, sir, did not come from the lack of education.  Poverty in Africa came from hundreds of years of exploitation and oppression, and I think that unless you challenge those core principles, you can build the most beautiful university in the Democratic Republic of Congo, and that definitely won't change the life of those people and give them the opportunity to live with dignity.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I think that is slightly off the subject, but Nagla, brief comment please.
NAGLA RIZK
Education has been called the social vaccine against AIDS; in countries where people living on less than 2 US dollars a day, the percentage exceeding 90 percent I think critical thinking is a luxury. Having worthiness of education, to await a validation stamp from freedom of speech is a luxury.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Is freedom of speech a luxury as well?    
NAGLA RIZK
Well, if people cannot feed their kids, they want to feed their kids, they want opportunities.  Freedom of speech is very important, I'm committed to freedom of speech, but these people have hungry kids they cannot feed, they have ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But first things first you're saying.
NAGLA RIZK
Of course. And people who are sick.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Lady up there, you have a question.         
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening.  I'm from Pakistan and my question is to Dr. Rizk.  You spoke before about how in Egypt doctors, their education is not worthless, but if bring this back into the context of students who are studying in the Middle East, what would you say to students who are studying politics or students who want to become journalists in this region?  We use our education as a tool, and so if in class we're not allowed to challenge ideas or to use our critical thinking skills to expand our ideas, then how do you think that our education will be worth anything in the context of the world living in the West as well as the Arab world?
NAGLA RIZK
This is a very good question actually.  It becomes more challenging in areas such as journalism and political science, but I tell you, you are studying journalism or political science - are you restricting your learning process to your books and your teachers?  Are you not exposed to the internet?  Are you not able to voice your opinion using the technologies that are democratising everywhere?  I have faith in your intellect, in your ability to sift and selectively go through the information that you need.  Is this ideal?  No.  Would it be better in the presence of freedom of speech?  Yes.  Is it worthless?  No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dennis Hayes, you wanted to come back and then I'll come to the speaker again.
DENNIS HAYES
You're entirely right.  I mean the opposition are just basically punning on the word 'education'.  They've taken education to mean education with critical thinking, and then just saying that that will happen in the best of possible worlds.  The difficulty is, when you don't live in the best possible world. The previous speaker made the point about social freedom, but don't dodge the responsibility - in the absence of social movements, the only way of getting to those situations is if you as an individual speaker speak up. If you're critical in every situation you can imagine, and you must be critical in your classrooms.  If you're not allowed to do that it won't happen when you come to university.  It isn't the case that just in universities you should have freedom of speech, you should also have it in schools and colleges, because you will not suddenly transform.  In British universities, by the way, they're stopping some Freshers' week's political debates because they think the students are now too vulnerable and sensitive to have political debates, so it's a really bad problem wherever you are.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just go back to the speaker here.  What happens to you in Pakistan if you speak out, when you want to speak out?
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm not studying in Pakistan, I'm studying here and using my education of being educated in the Middle East; the role it's going to play is to hopefully develop Pakistan and to develop the role of youth in this region, and so as a student who's being educated here, we want to play a role in the development of this region, but unless our ideas are challenged and unless we're asked to critically think about our decisions, how do you expect society to progress?
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you heard the advice saying speak up.
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you going to take it?
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.  Lady in the front row.   
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm from Qatar and my question is for those who are for the motion, so you seem to have a problem with the word 'worthless' ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
They're against the motion.
AUDIENCE (F)
I mean for the motion, right here.  So if there is no freedom of speech should we shut down all schools and universities?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Dennis Hayes, no freedom of speech, shut down the universities?
DENNIS HAYES
The university has a particular role in every society.  It's the lighthouse that says the state of free speech in that society.  So that's the really important thing about universities.  I think it's unfortunate that there is lack of free speech in lots of societies, not just in Middle Eastern or oppressive societies around the world, but in Western societies, and I think it was the case that universities were the beacon of free speech, but now you find that even in universities, free speech is not allowed.  Thinking the unthinkable and saying the unsayable and being creative is no longer allowed.
TIM SEBASTIAN
She was asking a straight question, do you shut them down?
DENNIS HAYES
No, you don't shut them down because shutting down is just another form of banning.  You win the arguments in universities to allow freedom of speech for all students; because that's the place we should have them.
AUDIENCE (F)
I still don't think you're answering my question.
DENNIS HAYES
The answer's no.
TARIQ RAMADAN
Let me come to this.  You know, 'worthless', we can play with the word by saying it's worthless - we shut down.  This is not what we are saying.  The point is to ask ourselves what is the value of education when there is no freedom of speech and when the substance of education is not to help the student to be critical.  My question is, we don't shut them down, but we are critical with them in order to change the system, to help the students to get this critical thinking that we want.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm sorry, this is not the motion.  The motion is: This House believes education is worthless without freedom of speech.
TARIQ RAMADAN
For me it's worthless and counterproductive if we don't come with a radical view that the objective of education is to change the minds of the people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I want to hear from you before you sit down.  Do you think you should shut down the universities?  Do you want to shut them down?
AUDIENCE (F)
No, obviously not, but they keep arguing that if there's no freedom of speech, then the education is worthless.  I think we should still keep the universities open, there can be hope for building better people and better educated people and from there we can promote freedom of speech.
TIM SEBASTIAN
How much hope do you have?
AUDIENCE (F)
A lot.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Kevin Watkins, you wanted to say something there.
KEVIN WATKINS
Well Dennis accused me of punning and that's an interesting thing, I actually took the trouble of printing off the dictionary definition of the word 'worthless' before I came in.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You came well prepared.
KEVIN WATKINS
I came very well prepared and I'm sort of alarmed to hear someone who is a professor of education for one of our universities in the UK who apparently struggles to understand the meaning of the word 'worthless'.  It's pretty clear, Tariq, I'm really sorry, it means 'no value' and if something has no value, it doesn't matter whether you keep it open or close it down because it's useless.  It generates no benefit.  Now, Nagla and I are totally committed to the struggle for freedom of speech.  In fact, I'm surprised that you guys haven't been more forceful in asserting the case for the freedom of speech.  I think there should be no restrictions on the freedom of speech and heavens forbid there should be restrictions on the freedom of speech or the freedom of critical thinking in universities.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Dennis Hayes, do you want to come back on that?
DENNIS HAYES
It's not just a matter of looking at dictionaries, one thing they should never do, by the way, is look at dictionary definitions - you should think for yourselves.  I did say my position is free speech and no ‘buts'.  Read the motion, it said: "Education is worthless without freedom of speech.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.
DENNIS HAYES
It doesn't mean there is no freedom of speech.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We've gone over the definitions quite enough actually at the moment.  Let's take a question from the gentleman in the front row.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Qatar.  It's a really interesting topic for everyone.   However, going to the point of ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
There's always a ‘but'.
AUDIENCE (M)
There's always a ‘but' in every sentence.  However, going to the point of education as the cake and the freedom of speech is just a cherry on the cake, why I'm telling you this, because the cake will feed you, however the cherry on the top will only make it look nice.  At the same time ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's your view, is it?
AUDIENCE (M)
It's only my point of view.  At the same time I was in a university, a local university once upon a time and I asked for: "Where is the society of engineers over here, where's the club of the engineering department," and everybody looked at me as though I was a mutant, I'm out of this world.  There were no clubs, no such clubs and I was exposed to a different system of education before, I come to this local institute.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you come to a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
The question is, who defines the matrix of freedom of speech?  Once upon a time there was a mosque, which told us to do this and that, another time, another era there was a church.  Now the freedom of speech: who defines it, who defines this matrix? Who says what's right, what's wrong, who sets the guidelines?
TARIQ RAMADAN
Well, I think it's a good question, it's not our question here but it's a good question.  At the end of the day, we have to go for something, which is in our society, to be free - to question. And from an Islamic perspective, because very often what I got from people talking about Islamic majority countries, that: "In Islam we don't go as far as this."  It's wrong.  In Islam, according to the Islamic tradition, even when you go to a Mufti, when we go to an Alim, you question: "Where do you come from with this answer?" So, you have to come with this, and I don't buy this idea that it's a cake, no.  Freedom of speech is one of the objectives, so if you miss the objectives, you have to ask yourself: "What are you doing with the means?'" and when the means is missing the objective, it could be counterproductive and it's not helping the society to change.  This is the point.  It's not a cake and we just take out of it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to come back on that?
AUDIENCE (M)
It's just a small point.  I totally agree with you on this side.  However, on the other side of the table, they're talking about something even more noble. If you are serving one billion people, they are serving the other five billion people out of the six billion people on the planet.  When she says 'a piece of paper will feed someone,' if I give this piece of paper to someone on the street, he can make use of it.  However, if I go to him and tell him freedom of speech, they did not reach that in Congo, they did not reach that in some areas of the world.  We are still in step one, so why aim for step 100.  We keep it over there, we keep step 100 where it is, and aim for it.
TARIQ RAMADAN
I'm sorry, this is why we are not changing anything in many of the Middle East countries.  You know why?   Because it's a first step.  We don't have an objective; we don't want to change the society.  Let's give the basic knowledge for the people to be quiet.  To be quiet means to get the salary and not to come with critical thinking, so this is the point.  The point is that, let me tell you something.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's disagreeing with you.
TARIQ RAMADAN
I find it quite kind to come with these thoughts but I can tell you something, for me, to think about education in that way, it's very dangerous, because this is very much the way when we keep the people quiet, get the knowledge, you will get your salary and don't change anything.
TIM SEBASTIAN
One more point and then I'm going to Nagla Rizk.
AUDIENCE (M)
Why don't we shift students from elementary school, just to universities? There is a dominoes game over here.  If you click the first one, it's a loop to your objectives over there at the end, so you have to implement freedom of speech if you have a system that allows you to.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Nagla Rizk, you had a point you wanted to make.
NAGLA RIZK
Tariq, we are sitting here in Qatar and we are talking about freedom of speech.  If you were in Africa, if you were a parent of children who are dying of AIDS, if you had children you cannot feed and somebody talks to you about freedom of speech, you would either laugh or be offended.  This is a reality, this is not an ideal world; yes freedom of speech is wonderful and we debate it, but I'm not defending governments who use that argument.  I am talking from the real world, a world of mothers and children who are dying of hunger and of disease.  You cannot advocate freedom of speech, worthy as it is - it's a different argument.
TARIQ RAMADAN
Nagla, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.  You are talking to me as if I was a father of a kid and I want him to go to school, of course I'm going to want this; but we are not talking about this now.  We are talking about evaluating education in a society.  Are we going for just one - I'm going to put my kid in school; or I'm going to change the system for my kids not only to get money but to be free, because at the end of the day, to survive is a basic right, but to think is a novel right, and I want novelty, I don't want only basic rights.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the lady in the third row.
AUDIENCE (F)
Salaam alaikum.  I'm from the Qatar Faculty of Islamic Studies.  I just want to say that education is counterproductive without freedom of speech because what we're doing is producing generations of individuals that are reinforcing the conditions for their oppression. And the Africans that you're talking about - if they understood the need to be free and to object to the systems that have enslaved them, that don't provide the medicines they need and the access to medicine because they don't understand the international system, because they can't speak out against their governments for being part of agreements that enslave them -this is where the problem is.  No mother looks at her child and says: "I want to put them in an education system that's going to reinforce the conditions of their poverty."
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Kevin Watkins, do you want to respond to that?
KEVIN WATKINS
Well, I think we are in danger of getting stuck in trench warfare here.  You know, what we keep coming back to is this idea that freedom of speech trumps everything.  If you haven't got freedom of speech, all your other rights can go out of the window, just forget it because they don't matter, and you know, I'm sure our opponents don't think this, but this is the logic of this argument.  It's the same logic that says well, you know, you've got freedom of speech so don't worry if your government happens to fancy torturing a few people.  We can waive the right to be tortured because that's secondary to freedom of speech.  It's the Malaysian government who in the 1980s were saying to people: "Look, we believe in democracy but not now because you're not quite ready for it, because you're not educated enough," and you know, the truth is, before you spoke about social justice, social movements have fought for generations for this idea of universal human rights; the idea that you have a right not to be enslaved, you have a right to a decent education, you have a right to the freedom of speech and you should defend that right at all costs."
AUDIENCE (F)
But how are we going to do any of that if we can't speak to begin with?  I teach and my students look at me at the end of the semester like: "What are we going to do?"   "What do you mean, what are you going to do?"  They just don't get it.  They don't get that they are allowed to speak and they're allowed to be critical and they're allowed right to newspapers and they're allowed to say: "We don't agree with what's happening and we're going to keep taking and we're going to keep acting ‘til something changes, otherwise I'm simply graduating people that are going to reinforce the conditions that they hate," and that's not going to get us anywhere.  I think that's counterproductive.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So your students are free to say whatever they want?
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes, and I'm free to say whatever I want in my classroom.
KEVIN WATKINS
I still have a logical problem with this. You're teaching students who are coming out of your classes saying they don't have the freedom to go and speak, so I have a bit of a concern about the way you're teaching them.  And before you start your question, you made a statement: "If African women understood."  I think you should be a little more circumspect about using that sort of language about other people from other cultures that you may not have a good handle on.  You know, we're having this discussion as though the only sort of education in the world that matters is a university education. We've all been privileged enough to have one and I hope we will all fight for exactly the sort of critical thinking that Tariq is talking about.  But let's not abandon the 70 million kids on this planet who don't even set foot in a primary school every year, that's also what this motion is about and we're forgetting that side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let her come back on that.
AUDIENCE (F)
First of all because not enough people are allowed to speak on their behalf and as for the African, I myself am African, and I was referring to those that Dr. Nagla was referring to, not Africa writ large.  I am more critical than that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Dennis Hayes, you wanted to say something.
DENNIS HAYES
What we have now is an argument that used to be used for slaves, right.  "When your lot gets better, we'll look after you more."  The best thing you can do is speak up wherever you are.  It used to be the case that if you were fighting against any form of repression, you did it by speaking up and fighting and arguing and actively organising against it.  Now, everybody in authority tells you: "Wait.  Wait ‘til some time in the future.  Be happy slaves," whether you're a slave, earning enough money, you're on a training course to be an engineer or whatever.  Don't bother thinking, don't bother fighting your oppression wherever you are, don't bother arguing with people in Africa who are rulers who don't even believe in AIDS, don't take any arguments about GM crops and say, 'We're not eating them, we'd rather starve to death,' because you're not having the arguments."  It used to be the fundamental condition that the fight for equality in human dignity was premised on the freedom of speech that you had to argue for it.  That is why this motion is so important because we've lost or people in power have lost the idea that freedom of speech is important. What they've lost really, and you ought to remember this, they've lost faith in you, they've lost faith in human beings wherever they are, and I do find it really patronising.  You can say whatever you like about anybody in another country, and they can argue back with you.  That should always be the way it is.  If you say something critical about them, they can argue back, but you should not be told: "You're not allowed to say that."
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Nagla Rizk.  Briefly.
NAGLA RIZK
How can an African woman understand, unless they are educated, how will they know their rights if they are not educated, this is the only way. Plus there is a hierarchy of needs.  We are not saying, "Wait for the freedom of expression."   We are saying that the worthiness of education is too precious to wait for the validation stamp from freedom of expression.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the blue shirt up there, you sir, yes. If you'll tell us where you're from when you get the microphone, please.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hi, I'm from Lebanon.  This question is for those that support the motion.  We keep talking about adults and their right to freedom of speech.  What about the kids?  In a classroom for 4-year-old kids and the teacher's trying to control the class.  There are a lot of rules in place; so if those rules or for example if the kids are allowed to say whatever they want to say, will the teacher be able to control the class? If they're colouring and able to criticise the kid next to them and they can do whatever they want in the sense of freedom of speech, do you think the teacher would be able to control the class the same way she would be able to?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Tariq Ramadan, your students are a bit older than that.
TARIQ RAMADAN
But I was a teacher for secondary classes, not in primary classes.  Of course the teacher should manage a good atmosphere for everyone to be able to talk and to be listened to, but I think that even there, what we need in the classes is teachers helping the kids to speak out, to say what they want.  You know, there are two things that are missing, critical thinking and creativity.  Say what you want to say, be creative, talk, speak your mind.  When you are a kid, when you are very young, this is the way you let them understand that they have a value.  You know when you feel that you have a value, when someone is listening to you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.
TARIQ RAMADAN
So first you speak and you are listened to.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think we're talking more about classroom discipline here.  I'm going to take a question from the lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hello. I'm from Bahrain.  I have a question for Mr. Ramadan.  The West has freedom of speech but how is education worth more with freedom of speech when the teaching can be manipulated to fit the views of government or institutions?
TARIQ RAMADAN
Yes, I think it's a good point. What I said... I'm not idealising the Western systems.  You know, I have been teaching for years in the West, so I think that yes, when you have students being able to question, being able to criticise, being able to challenge the system, this is where we have to value a system.  Is it perfect?  It's not perfect.  Should we reform it?  We should reform it.  Should we add to what is called freedom because the question also is freedom.  When we speak about freedom of speech, freedom should go with knowledge.  What we are sometimes promoting even in the West is a sense of superficial freedom with no knowledge of history and philosophy, so I'm critical.
TIM SEBASTIAN
She doesn't look very impressed by what you're saying.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm asking do you think it's worth more, worth more.
TARIQ RAMADAN
On that field, yes, on the field of critical thinking and being able to challenge the system, yes, and I think that in Africa, in the Middle East, we should go much more in this direction of critical thinking towards the system and towards the government and towards thoughts and creativity, yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, gentleman in the second row, you have a question, you sir. 
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm a neurologist from here.  I want to make a couple of statements and a question.  One is that studies show that lack of education would make one prone to develop Alzheimer's disease, so if you are more educated, you're actually prevented from having Alzheimer Disease, point one.  Point two, over 50 percent of the world's population suffer from lack of freedom, I mean, lack of freedom of speech, and education is the healing balsam or medicine for their lack of freedom of speech.  Now, the question is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think this is kind of a specialist topic.  Can we get to a point within the competence of our speakers please?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, the question is for this side of the table and with that background, okay, you can't have it both ways, so I'm going to give you two options.  Education without freedom of speech, one, or freedom of speech without education, which one would you take?
DENNIS HAYES
There is no education without freedom of speech.
AUDIENCE (M)
Pick one: education without freedom of speech, or freedom of speech and being ignorant.
DENNIS HAYES
There is no education without freedom of speech.  That is just the case, that's what education is.  Anything else is just training or learning a job.
AUDIENCE (M)
That's a wavering answer.  I want one option.  I give you two options.  You can't have it both ways.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You can't force him to answer it your way. He's got to have freedom of speech to answer the way he wants to answer.
AUDIENCE (M)
You see, you have to be educated in order not to abuse your freedom of speech.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, thank you very much.   Kevin Watkins, you have a point.
KEVIN WATKINS
Actually, I think this is a really serious point and because I completely respect the freedom of speech, I sit here and allow Tariq and Dennis to shift the goalposts over and over again to keep it away from the motion we're actually supposed to be discussing. Now there's a certain gentleman who lived a couple of centuries ago, Thomas Jefferson, who I think nobody in this room would argue was not a very fierce advocate of the freedom for speech.  The other thing he did which is less known, is he insisted on putting in the constitution of New England the right to public education, and he did that because he believed fervently that the two things went together. Imagine the reality, if you will, of a society that followed the model that you just said, a society that had perfect freedom of speech but perfect illiteracy.  What sort of debate would we have in that society?  It's an absurd proposition, I grant you, but that is precisely the sort of absurdity that your argument is taking us towards, because these two things have to go together.
TARIQ RAMADAN
I'm sorry.   You know, I can just give you another example of someone like Paolo Freire in Brazil, saying: "Look, the system that we have is counterproductive," because once again in the favelas they can go to schools and they are not going to change anything.  He came with another system.  The point was, it's not education the problem, it's the quality of education, and the quality of education, if you don't give them the means to challenge the social environment, you are not going to change.  What you are promoting here is, in the name of education, let's go for education whatever is the result.  I say, no, the result is very challenging here.  We need to assess the quality of the education that we are promoting.
KEVIN WATKINS
That is what we call in the trade a low blow.  Nobody on this side of the table has argued for sub-standard inferior education. The purpose of education, and we should all be working towards this: is the reform of curricula, the reform of teaching, the training of critical minds. You know, Paolo Freire was an education revolutionary.  He did extraordinary in education in Brazil. That's the sort of model of education...
TARIQ RAMADAN
Freedom of education, freedom to be critical.  Exactly, this is what I wanted to hear. He wanted freedom of expression.
KEVIN WATKINS
Yes, but did Paolo Freire start from your proposition that because we don't in Brazil which was under a dictatorship at the time, because we don't have freedom of speech, education is worthless? No he didn't
TARIQ RAMADAN
This is exactly what he said; it is exactly what he said.  The state system is worthless, let us now come with an alternative system.
KEVIN WATKINS
Another shifting of the goalposts. ‘The state system is worthless' - he didn't say education is worthless.
TARIQ RAMADAN
Because there was no freedom of speech, this is why it was worthless.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the second row, you, yes.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hi, I'm from Romania.  You stated that freedom of speech is bringing change, right? Now, if I decide to earn my living with my education, and I don't bring change to the world, and I don't want to be Superman, am I worthless?
DENNIS HAYES
There's a common theme to all these questions that are critical of our side, which is basically delay.  You know, you don't educate in schools until the children behave.  You know, you have your education first, and then you have critical thinking.  You have to do something first, or you are worthless.  You might be worthless, by the way, you might be worthless.  You have a duty, in Romania or anywhere, to stand up and be critical of every injustice in that society.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. I'm going to take a question from the lady right at the back.  Yes, you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening.  I'm actually a teacher.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are you from?
AUDIENCE (F)
Mauritius.  I consider myself an educator, and before coming to this debate, in our classroom we discussed with our students the meaning of freedom of speech, and we discouraged them funnily enough from trying to find a definition in a dictionary, because we really wanted them to understand about freedom of speech. So my question is, how can you understand about freedom of speech if you have no education?
DENNIS HAYES
You've answered your own question, right.  And it is a difficult issue to say what freedom of speech means today, and I do think the only way you do it is by debating it.  You exercise your freedom of speech to understand it because so often people in British universities will talk about having a safe space in which they can express themselves without anybody being offended.  That's not freedom of speech.  Freedom of speech is your right to say to other people: "I disagree with you and I'm going to reason and argue with you ‘til I change your mind."  That is what free speech is about.
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes, but you're missing the point.  If you have no education, how can you question anything, how can you develop any critical thinking, so if you're saying that education is worthless without freedom of speech, then it's going to be a very, very sad world that we live in?
TARIQ RAMADAN
Look, look, look.  You are responding to our question: "What have you done with your students?"  No, no, you decided not to give the answer - to let them discuss.
AUDIENCE (F)
I agree with you but this is not the motion.  The motion is: "Education is worthless without freedom of speech" You did not define what education is.
TARIQ RAMADAN
No, the point is, the quality of the education is exactly this.  Your method of education has a value because you give them the space to speak.  If you were to give them the answer, it wouldn't be education, it would be just to give them the right thinking and they have to repeat.  This is not what you are doing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Nagla Rizk.
NAGLA RIZK
Two things very quickly.  Dennis keeps undermining the value of training that gets people a job.  Why do you undermine that?  This is very important in reality, for people who can hardy meet their basic needs.  My second point is, if we assume that people who are given an education that is not ideal, that is not critical, we are really putting very little faith in their capacity, their intellect to question.  We are assuming that people will sit and listen and will be driven like sheep.  You talk about having faith in the intellect of students.  If you do have faith, then accept, I mean, not try to change but given the reality, whatever education they will get, they will be smart enough to question.  Not an ideal scenario but it is still not zero.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I'm going to take a brief question from the gentleman in the striped shirt up there, yes you.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening, I'm from the Philippines and this question is directed towards the opposition side.  Now first off, can we take a look at what education actually means? Because education to me is simply answers, too many questions.  So basically if you cannot question, what are the point of answers?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nagla Rizk.
NAGLA RIZK
We have a medical doctor here, how does he or she get educated?  Do they start off by asking them the question, or are they given the book of anatomy to memorise.
AUDIENCE (M)
But that is exactly my point, but what if, suppose, a leader of biology in Egypt is influenced by the government to say, or he is influencing the government, to say that he is right, so the answer becomes tainted, and if education becomes a series of tainted answers, then it is not really a worthwhile education then.
NAGLA RIZK
Yes, but you are smart enough to have access to knowledge from many other sources.  You are smart enough to be selective in your perception.  You are not, I'm sorry ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who says he's smart enough?
NAGLA RIZK
I think so, I say so.  I have faith in the intellect of people.  People are not sheep who are driven, especially in this day and time.  Knowledge and learning comes from so many sources.  You have access to various sources of knowledge, and you have the intellect to question.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  I would like to go on much longer but we're running out of time.  I'm going to ask each of the panellists for one sentence, 15 seconds, summing up their views before we get to vote on the motion.  Dennis, would you like to start?  15 seconds, no more please.
DENNIS HAYES
Education is about your right to make up your own mind.  If you vote against this motion, you're voting against yourself and your own ability to make up your own mind, so we want a hundred percent vote for the motion.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Tariq Ramadan.
TARIQ RAMADAN
Yes, I think it's a very important motion.  We can play with words and say: "Okay, the motion is about worthless or not."  This is not the point.  The point is about the quality of education and this education should have objectives and the objective is freedom of speech and to challenge the system and the opinions of the people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Kevin Watkins.
KEVIN WATKINS
Well, you vote against the motion and you vote for us - you get two things in one.  You get everything they're asking for, which is freedom of speech, a hundred percent commitment to critical thinking in education ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.
KEVIN WATKINS
... but you get one additional thing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You don't get an additional sentence.  Nagla Rizk.
NAGLA RIZK
The motion is not about the quality of education.  The motion is very clear about the worthlessness of education in the absence of freedom of expression.  Defending freedom of expression does not mean that you vote for the motion.

TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, one sentence, that's it.  Okay, that's it, thank you.  We've come to the point where we're going to vote on the motion: "This House believes education is worthless without freedom of speech."  Would you please take your voting machines, let me just explain to you, if you want to vote for the motion, that's the side represented by those on my right, it's button one, the YES button.  If you want to vote against the motion, that's the side represented by those on my left, it's button two, the NO button.  Whichever button you want to press, please do it now.  You only have to press once.   Thanks to the wonders of modern science your vote will be communicated to the computers.  We should have the vote for you in about 10 seconds' time.  

All right, there it is.  53 percent for the motion, 47 percent against.  The motion has been carried. 

All that remains for me to do is to thank our distinguished speakers, thank you very much indeed, and thank you to you, the audience as well, for your participation.  The Doha Debates will be back again next month.  Until then, from all of us on the team, have a safe journey home.  Good night, thank you very much indeed.  Good night.