This House believes the Middle East would be better off with John McCain in the White House

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates coming to you from the Gulf State of Qatar and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation.  The one election in the world that you can't miss even if you want to is almost upon us, and here in the Arab world they're watching more closely than most.  The war in Iraq, the crisis in Western relations with Iran, a stagnant peace process between Israel and the Palestinians - all this has created a dramatic prism through which the people of this region will be following the US election and its potential to change their life many thousands of miles away from America.  So could Barack Obama be an effective peace-maker in the Middle East?  Is John McCain that different from George W. Bush?  Our motion tonight - ‘This House believes that the Middle East would be better off with John McCain in the White House'- and we have some powerful speakers both for and against.  Supporting the motion, Republican activist Danielle Pletka.  She's vice-president for foreign and defense policy studies at a right-wing think-tank in Washington, the American Enterprise Institute.  She heads a project on democracy in the Arab world.  With her, Dr. Saad bin Tafla Al-Ajmi, who's a former information minister in Kuwait and a founding member of the Kuwaiti Human Rights Society.  He currently lectures at Kuwait University and writes widely in the Arabic press.  Speaking against the motion, Michael Signer:  he was foreign policy adviser to John Edwards during his battle for the Democratic nomination.  He's currently a senior policy adviser with the Center for the American Progress Action Fund and teaches classes on political theory, foreign policy and democracy.  And with him the Egyptian television presenter, Hafez Al-Mirazi.  He's a former talk show host on a channel not a million miles from here called Al Jazeera and currently vice-chairman of Egypt's Al Hayat television.  He has wide experience of election campaigns and conventions in the US.  Ladies and gentlemen, our panel.  [Applause] So now let me call first on Danielle Pletka to speak for the motion.

DANIELLE PLETKA 
Thank you very much, Tim. It's really a pleasure to be here in Doha, a pleasure to be with you tonight, a delight really for me to be on the cutting edge of intellectual debate in the Middle East, so thank you to you all.  Saad Al-Ajmi and I are here to lay out the arguments for John McCain.  I couldn't be luckier in my partner.  So, to the question.  These are not peaceful times.  There are challenges ahead and there will be surprises for us all.  While I admire Senator Obama and appreciate his meteoric rise in American politics and am proud of what his nomination says about my country, I believe John McCain has the experience, the gravity and the principles to serve not only American interests, but those of our valued allies - you here today.  Briefly, three opening points.  We are on the road to a stable Iraq.  No matter your views on the wisdom of that war, walking away on a politically driven schedule regardless of the consequences is the height of irresponsibility.   What are the consequences?  Iranian domination; a return of Al Qaeda; sectarian violence.  On Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini, President Ahmadinejad seek to dominate this region.  Senator Obama has said he would negotiate unconditionally with Iran's leaders. While Senator McCain agrees that talking to one's adversaries is the right choice, abandoning three UN Security Council resolutions demanding that Iran suspend enrichment of uranium is a mistake.  It is a sign of weakness that will encourage Iranian adventurism in the Gulf and elsewhere.  On the economy, the United States enjoys the world's largest economy and we should hope it will be the engine of all of our recovery.  Raising our corporate taxes - now the second highest in the world - our income taxes, our capital gains taxes and punishing corporations with a windfall profit tax, opposing free trade and promising to renegotiate existing trading agreements threatens to take us back to the 1930s.  Our crisis will only deepen the world's and yours.  Senator McCain has stood up to George W. Bush more than any Republican in our country: on Guantanamo Bay, on global warming, on strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan, on detainee treatment. He will not pander to different audiences and will not send mixed signals.  He will lead responsibly with a clear vision and will ensure the strength and safety of our allies and our own country.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Danielle Pletka, thank you very much indeed.  You talk about the threat of Iranian adventurism.  Nothing has done more to advance Iran's interests in this region than the war in Iraq which George Bush started.  You want to vote for a man who's in the same party, who backed that war?  It's been the biggest help to Iran in a generation.  They can hardly believe their luck.
DANIELLE PLETKA 
Well, I would argue that Jimmy Carter was the biggest help to Iran's current leaders in a generation actually.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, Iran has gone from zero centrifuges to three thousand on Bush's watch.
DANIELLE PLETKA 
Excuse me, Tim, but Iran started its nuclear weapons programme first under the Shah and advanced it most under the administration of Bill Clinton. There is no question that Iran ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Zero to three thousand on Bush's watch.
DANIELLE PLETKA 
We would not even know anything about Iran's nuclear weapons programme had the United States and its allies in Europe not been putting pressure on the international community to more closely scrutinise exactly what this regime is up to.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hamas and Hezbollah are awash with Iranian money. You have to admit it. Iran's stock in this region has never been higher.
DANIELLE PLETKA 
Well, I don't think that's probably true with this audience.
TIM SEBASTIAN
America wanted to redraw the map of the Middle East but it didn't want an Iranian president greeted with flowers at Baghdad Airport.  Now, that's hardly a plus for the Bush administration's policy, is it?
DANIELLE PLETKA 
I don't think this is about the Bush administration's policies.  I think this is about the safety of our allies and the long-term interests of the United States, Europe and all of our allies in this region.  That's why we need to contain Iran.  It has nothing to do with George Bush, Barack Obama or John McCain.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It has a lot to do with George Bush because John McCain backed him 90% of the time.
DANIELLE PLETKA 
It has a lot to do with the choices that the Iranian leadership has made.  This cannot be thrown on to the United States, and should not be.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It could have been different, couldn't it? 
DANIELLE PLETKA 
No, it couldn't have been different.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Diplomacy could have worked?
DANIELLE PLETKA 
Well, there's certainly no evidence to show that.  We have many years of European diplomacy, not to speak of Arab countries reaching out to the Iranian leadership and they have done nothing but stick their finger in the eye of the International Atomic Energy Agency, the United Nations, the United States and Europe. Nothing else.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And they're never been stronger now than they are today, just on the eve of the US election.
DANIELLE PLETKA 
I couldn't disagree with you more.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Danielle Pletka, thank you very much indeed.  And now let me call on Michael Signer, please, to speak against the motion.

MICHAEL SIGNER 
Thanks, Tim.  I want to thank the other panellists and the BBC and the Qatar Foundation and the audience.  This is an extraordinary exercise in the ebb and flow of ideas, as we've seen, and it's a privilege to be a part of it.  We have a saying in America that we get the president we deserve and this can be for ill or for good.. and the question I think that you all should consider in your participation in this debate tonight is what kind of president do we all deserve from America, as a leader, as one of the leaders of the world.. and I would submit to you three points tonight, and I think that this question that we're put is equally one about McCain as about Barack Obama, as his opponent.  Who has the capacity to be inherently transformative?  I want you to imagine one moment which is January 20^th, setting aside all the debate and all the points you're going to hear tonight.  Imagine this moment on January 20^th of next year which is our inauguration and you have Barack Obama being sworn in.  This is someone, this is an African-American in a country that only half a century ago had segregation and this is someone who's spent some of his formative years in Indonesia, a Muslim nation, who can bring some of the experiences of understanding the people's perspective in some of these other countries to foreign policy questions. He can bring the perspective of somebody who wants to understand rather than just lecture and listen rather than just talk.  The second thing that I would ask you to consider is the quality of each of these two men's judgment.  There is something about Barack Obama that I think we've all seen in America and hopefully you've all seen as well, that is thoughtful and deliberative and that approaches questions with a reasoned style.. and I do think it is high time we had a president who thinks before he acts, rather than acts before he thinks.  We've seen the cost of that so far with Iraq, with the lack of WMD and with John McCain, he said that ‘We will be greeted as liberators' before we went into Iraq, he has made, there is a rash and intemperate style that he brings and the same man who made that decision about Iraq was the one who picked an unqualified person as his vice-president, after meeting her once. The third thing that I would ask you to consider is their idea of America's role in the world.  Miss Pletka brought up the question of engagement with countries like Iran, with our adversaries.  John McCain has made Senator Obama's proposal for tough, deliberate engagement with our adversaries the centrepiece of his campaign.  He has made this the centrepiece of his campaign, Obama's proposal to engage with Iran.  Look at what an isolationist, unilateral approach with Iran has gotten us.  It has gotten us backfire upon backfire upon backfire and thoughtful, tough diplomacy that is based on engagement and based on getting more information, more control, can only make the situation better.  This has gotten us nowhere and we deserve a change.  For all these reasons, it's clear that the president that we all deserve, is Barack Obama, not John McCain.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Michael Signer, thank you very much indeed.  You want a president who acts before he thinks.
MICHAEL SIGNER 
No, it's vice-versa, Tim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Ah, really, thinks before he acts.
MICHAEL SIGNER
Yes 
TIM SEBASTIAN
What about a president who thinks before he changes his mind?  I mean, Barack Obama has flip-flopped on virtually every major policy statement he's made on foreign affairs.  Look at his speech to the Jewish lobby group AIPAC in June, where he said: "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel and it must remain undivided."  He then had to issue a clarification saying he wasn't trying to influence the final status negotiations.  He's making it up as he goes along, isn't he?
MICHAEL SIGNER 
I wouldn't agree with that.  The way that the Obama campaign clarified and expanded on that remark, as I understand it, is that he was expressing kind of an aspirational intent, and I do think that it is fine for...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But he set off shock waves in the Arab world and you're trying to influence our audience tonight and tell them that they should support Barack Obama and that he's the one who's going to be the best for them.
MICHAEL SIGNER 
Right, well, I wouldn't view shock waves in, well, shock waves would be a very strong point of view.  I think that it is fine to have iterative statements of policy intent, where you say one thing and then you listen and then you can expand and improve and that's exactly what happened here.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The Palestinians' chief negotiator said: "Obama has closed all the doors to peace".  That's quite an indictment, coming from the Palestinians.  Al Quds said this cheap way of throwing himself at the feet of this lobby harms American interests, encourages violence and terrorism by giving justification to extremist groups.
MICHAEL SIGNER 
We're in the Middle East.  I would be very, very wary ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Which means what?
MICHAEL SIGNER 
... about imputing the entire public opinion of the Palestinians to one spokesperson.  This is a pluralistic.. Barack Obama has ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's not one spokesperson it was the chief negotiator for the Palestinians, a man with considerable experience in foreign affairs, a lot more than Barack Obama.
MICHAEL SIGNER 
I would be shocked and I don't think anyone is so fatalistic as to think the entire future of the peace process could be doomed by one statement that then was expanded and I think that this is the kind of... I think we do need to avoid catastrophic thinking and fatalistic thinking about this.  I actually think that Barack Obama is far more likely to bring a constructive role for America and to apply the power - the enormous power of the presidency in the Middle East peace process - and to take risks.  I mean, I think that what you're talking about, there are tremendous risks.  People are very, they want to look from ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you need a bit more clear thinking than you've had from them.
MICHAEL SIGNER 
I wouldn't agree with that.  I think you might, I mean, he is not a professional politician and clearly there are minefields that you do encounter with ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who is not?  Who is not a professional?
MICHAEL SIGNER
Barack Obama.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's not a professional politician?
MICHAEL SIGNER 
No, he's not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
He should be, shouldn't he?  If he's going to sit in the Oval Office, you want a professional politician?
MICHAEL SIGNER 
I don't think so.  I think there probably is a natural learning process that comes with the minefields that you encounter, specifically with things like ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you want him to learn on the job.  All right.  Michael Signer, thank you very much indeed.
MICHAEL SIGNER 
That's fair, thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could I ask now please Saad bin Tafla Al-Ajmi to speak for the motion

SAAD AL-AJMI  
Well, thank you, Tim, glad to see you again, happy to be here.  Let me first of all point out that I'm not actually here to endorse one American presidential candidate or another.  I'm actually here to highlight issues which I think are important priorities for us as people in the region.  The three top most important issues are: the Palestinian issue, which I think with Jerusalem being the address of the conscience of all Arabs and all Muslims and all peace-loving nations in the world, on the one hand to end the occupation, the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian land and to come up with a just solution, with a two-state solution, which John McCain I think is the right man actually to follow suit, to bring the just solution for the Palestinian plight, on the one hand.  On the other hand, I think that the Iraqi issue is a very important issue.  America toppled Saddam, started the mess, and Iraq is in chaos - it could slip into chaos if America, as Obama wants, packs up and leaves, leaving all of those Iraqis to their fate and leaving Iraq slipping into chaos and with all of the sacrifices the Iraqi people have actually done and have actually offered and made. Thirdly, we don't want a confrontational gung-ho all-out war with Iran, nor do we want also an appeasement of Iran.  Now, having said that, the United States of America has to take up its moral and political responsibilities to finish the job and the mess and clean up the mess started in Iraq, not just to pack up and leave on the one hand and leave Iraq prey to chaos and to Iran and at the same time to bear in mind that we don't want another war with Iran, yet we don't want Iran to violate the Security Council resolutions and have nuclear weapons in this region because it will be volatile, it will be very, very dangerous. Therefore because these are our priorities, from what we've followed up in the campaign, in the presidential campaign, we think that John McCain is the right man to address and adopt these issues.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Saad bin Tafla Al-Ajmi, thank you very much indeed.  What has John McCain ever suggested doing for the Palestinians?
SAAD AL-AJMI 
I think that the position of John McCain ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... when his party, and his party hasn't advanced the peace process one iota in eight years.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
I'm not here actually to speak about the GOP.  What I'm talking about is that ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, he happens to belong to that party.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
Allow me to finish.  Tim, this is not HARDtalk.  Let me finish.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's tough talk.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
I've been with you in HARDtalk before, Tim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's tough talk, whether it's hard or not.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
Allow me to finish.  The policy that the school of John McCain is adopting is a two-state solution and this is actually in compatibility with the Arab peace initiative.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's what Bush has been pushing unsuccessfully for eight years.  Where are John McCain's new ideas?
SAAD AL-AJMI 
We're not here actually to discuss Bush or McCain or Obama.  We're discussing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We are actually because the motion tonight is ‘This House believes the Middle East would be better off with John McCain in the White House' and you're on that side.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
Let me finish.  I am here actually to take this opportunity to highlight the issues that are dear to us and important to us.  At the end of the day, the ones who are going to decide who's going to be in the White House are the Americans come next Tuesday.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you are sitting on that side.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
I am sitting on the side of the issue that ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You are apparently supporting the motion.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
Let me finish.  I am supporting the motion because the motion is compatible with my ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You want John McCain in there, a representative of a party that's done nothing for the Palestinians for the last eight years.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
Well, that's because at the same time I think that, you know, this esteemed audience, at least listen to my point of view, being the only non-American amongst your distinguished esteemed, you know, panellists here, let me finish.  I think that I am supporting John McCain because what he said is compatible with that I want, not because I think he is a great man and he's wonderful.  If it comes to personal characteristics, I think that Obama is more eloquent, charismatic, attractive, but that's ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So your support is pretty lukewarm.
SAAD AL-AJMI 
Allow me - that declaration is not foundation.  We said the same thing when George Bush was running against Al Gore, we said: "Ah, George Bush is going to come, he's going to give the Palestinians their rights, we have to actually be against Al Gore."  Nowadays we're shifting, so it's not a shift to the GOP or blue versus right.  It's sticking to our priorities.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Saad bin Tafla Al-Ajmi, I have to stop you there.  Thank you very much indeed.  Now, please let me ask Hafez Al-Mirazi to speak against the motion.

HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
Thank you, Tim.  Watching what you did really makes me now.. I would like to go back and do the hosting and be more lenient with my guests but in any case..  I thank you also for bringing us back every time to the main motion that we are talking about.  The motion is very clear.  It's not about whether Obama is good for the Palestinians or bad.  The motion is very clear and that makes it also easy for me and for my audience.  Would the Middle East be better off with John McCain in the White House - and I believe Ronald Reagan himself used that phrasing, asking the American people after four years of failed policies of Jimmy Carter in 1980 and he asked them: "Are you better off now than four years ago?" and the answer of course was no, a resounding no.  It should be the same answer from you tonight.  Bush has made America and the Middle East worse than we were eight years ago. So is hawkish Republican-made John McCain - if elected - going to make Bush, if we look back at him a few years from now, look like a Mahatma Gandhi?  McCain is eager to fight and engage in wars against Iran, Syria - anybody who would oppose him.  Like Bush, he wouldn't talk to his opponents.  He shoots first and talks later.  Obama was right in describing McCain's disagreement with Bush as similar to Robin getting mad at Batman.  Remember that all the killings and the shooting we have witnessed in our region since 2003 is a result of a war promoted and engineered by a peaceful vice-president, Dick Cheney, who happened to be a quail hunter, just a small quail hunter.  Could you imagine if Sarah Palin reached the White House and become a vice-president?  She is by the way a moose hunter and you could find the difference.  And also to Dr. Saad: the only visit by Sarah Palin to the Arab World was to Kuwait - and what did she do in Kuwait?  She was practising shooting in a Kuwaiti military camp.
DANIELLE PLETKA     
That's irrelevant, I think that's irrelevant.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, it's not a time for arguing, please let him speak.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
If you care about the US-Muslim world relationship and you would like it to recover, be aware that a McCain-Palin victory would do to this fragile relationship what Lehman Brothers did to the financial markets.  The intolerant anti-Muslim rhetoric that came or have come out of their campaign made a moderate Republican leader like Colin Powell endorse the Democrat Obama and condemned this tone coming out of the Republican party.  All they care about is appeasing the Republican base, the Republican base - I mean the white, evangelical, Christian right-wing.  If they win, we as moderate mainstream Arabs and Americans on both sides of the aisle are going to be stuck between McCain's base and the base in the Muslim world.  By the way, Al Qaeda means in Arabic ‘the base'.  Is McCain good for the Middle East or not? I believe McCain cannot be good for the Middle East and the only Al Qaeda website, Al-Hesbah, recently - as the Washington Post reported - said: "Yes, McCain is good for the Middle East."
TIM SEBASTIAN
I have to ask you to wrap up.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
And just to conclude: people who would think that McCain is good for America are only  people like Joe the Plumber.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hafez Al-Mirazi, thank you very much.  So you have no recommendation for Barack Obama then?
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
I would second Barack Obama in many things and I would disagree with him in issues like the Arab-Israeli conflict, but also our audience ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But if you're rejecting the motion, you clearly think he'd be better in the White House than John McCain.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
We have Ralph Nader, for example - I could vote for Ralph Nader, but McCain over my dead body.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you'd have anybody, even Barack Obama.  You'd go on a blind date with Barack Obama?
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
Well, no, you have Ralph Nader, you have Bob Barr, you have so many people.  The choices - it doesn't matter if they win or not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But these happen to be the two candidates that are actually fighting in the election.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
It happens to be, this is your motion.  You didn't say Barack Obama.  The motion is: ‘Is the Middle East going to be better off with McCain?'  Of course not.
TIM SEBASTIAN
How do you know?  How do you know?
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
Because I made the test that Ronald Reagan said, I mean, McCain disagreed ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, we're not talking about Ronald Reagan we're talking about John McCain.  John McCain has very different policies.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
We are talking about the policies of George Bush and his people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, we're not, we're talking about the policies of John McCain.  John McCain has sought to distance himself on every occasion.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
Only 90 percent.  No, not on every.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Much more in foreign policy than on domestic policy.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
John McCain's voting was 90 percent with Bush, so he can not..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mostly on domestic policy.  On foreign policy there have been key differences.  On Guantanamo Bay there's been a clear difference.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
John McCain authored and voted for the war against Iraq and he was the one behind it in Congress, unlike Obama who voted against that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You said John McCain shoots and talks later.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
That is true.
TIM SEBASTIAN
When has he shot?  Who has he shot?
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
Well, John McCain has a temperament and John McCain is known for that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But to make an accusation like that - "he's known for that" - you can't give me an example when he's shot anybody, unlike vice-president Cheney for instance.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI 
Someone who'd like to entertain himself wouldn't sing "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran."  I don't think that that's really a reasonable person.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, Ronald Reagan said it's time to bomb Russia and didn't do it.  Hafez Al-Mirazi, on that note, thank you very much indeed.  I'm going to throw it open now to the audience to take your questions.  There's a gentleman right up there, in the striped shirt.  We'll get a microphone to you.  Please tell us where you're from.

AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I'm from Yemen. I have a question for the motion panellists. Miss Pletka, you said long-term interests for the United States - does that include going into a war or another war with another country in the Middle East on one hand and not ending the Palestinian and Israeli conflict on the other hand? What do you have to say about that?
DANIELLE PLETKA
I think it's a terrific question, thank you for being here. I do not think that this means, that being for the motion, in other words supporting Senator McCain to be the President of the United States, means another war in the Middle East. To the contrary, I think that is when America is weak and signals weakness - sends mixed signals, talks about transformation but then changes its mind one moment later - that our adversaries seek to take advantage of us, seek to pressure their neighbours, seek to dominate the region. If you didn't guess, I'm talking about Iran. There should be no question in anyone's mind that John McCain would not support the idea of military action against Iran before trying every possible other option. I don't think that any of those options, any of the more effective options have been tried. On the second question that you ask about the Palestinians: again, we need to be clear. George Bush was the first president who talked about an American policy of a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine. John McCain has not only said that he would not change that, but that he supports it. John McCain has not said to one audience: "I support a united Jerusalem under Israeli rule" and then the next day said: "You know what, I've changed my mind" and then the next day he said yet something different. John McCain has not said: "I would support the war in Iraq" and then "I wouldn't support the war in Iraq" as Senator Obama has changed his mind on indeed that question, hard to believe as it is. Thank you though for your question.
AUDIENCE (M)
You said he's in support of that, but is that for the long-term interest for the United States to keep supporting that without doing anything, just, you know, claiming that they're supporting?
DANIELLE PLETKA
First of all, I don't think that the United States is doing nothing. The United States needs to be versatile. We need to be solutions-oriented. One of the biggest problems that I perceive is that we talk a lot about diplomacy but we don't talk about what we're seeking to achieve. Diplomacy is a means toward an end. That end should be a peaceful, stable, two-state solution for the Israeli and the Palestinian people living within secure borders each. It should also be an Iran that does not seek to threaten or influence its neighbours, nor to oppress its own people with the perfection of nuclear weapons.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, can I bring Michael Signer in here please?
MICHAEL SIGNER
There has been such a dramatic lack of accountability and facts in this administration's regard for its own...
DANIELLE PLETKA
We're not talking about George Bush.
MICHAEL SIGNER
We are talking about John McCain's involvement in the Iran policy over the last eight years.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Tell me what that is? Just tell me what John McCain's involvement in the Iran policy over the last eight years has been? I realise Barack Obama wasn't around to notice it but maybe you did.
MICHAEL SIGNER
He said that we would need even fewer troops than Donald Rumsfeld asked for. He said that there had been no history of the violence ...
DANIELLE PLETKA
Are we are talking about Iran or Iraq?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please let him speak.
DANIELLE PLETKA
But he has to answer the actual question.
MICHAEL SIGNER
He said that there had been no history of violent conflict between Sunni and Shia in Iraq. He did not correctly anticipate that the civil outbreak would strengthen Iran's hand. He had no sense of the comprehensive diplomatic carrots and sticks package that we would need against Iran. Now we have eight years, I mean, where is the accountability, where is the shame?
DANIELLE PLETKA
Hang on a second. This is not a referendum on George W. Bush. If it were, I would be sitting on the other side.
MICHAEL SIGNER
I'm talking about John McCain. John McCain was in the Senate this whole eight years ...
DANIELLE PLETKA
You want to punish John McCain for George Bush's eight years?
MICHAEL SIGNER
... and he was an author of the Iraq policy that strengthened Iran. John McCain is an author of it.
DANIELLE PLETKA
I disagree with you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're going to move on to a question. Gentleman in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE (M)
|Thank you. I'm from Qatar. As they said, Obama, you know, charming, popular, but I haven't heard him talking about promoting democracy, freedom of speech, human rights here in this region. Following 11^th September, Bush said that he was going to promote democracy here. The Republicans supported, you know, a stabilised Iraq and freed Kuwait and they helped in Afghanistan, but I didn't hear Obama saying much about promoting of, you know ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So are you asking them about Mr. Obama's policy?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, against the motion that, you know, my question is that Obama didn't promise much and you know, he's saying that he was going to pull out from Iraq. Imagine the mess that is going to be here, you know. Iran is going to have ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, you've made your point. Let me ask Michael Signer to respond to that.
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, just let me finish my point, that Iran is going to have ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very quickly.
AUDIENCE (M)
... to have more influence in the region and Al Qaeda is going to spread if they pull out. He doesn't know what he's talking about, this Obama.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, thank you very much.
MICHAEL SIGNER
Thanks. It's an excellent question and to begin with, there is an absolute distinction between installing democracy as formal structures on the one hand and fostering constitutionalism, as a civic society that cares about the rule of law, in the people themselves. Barack Obama has talked very clearly about how he opposed how the Bush administration supported elections in Gaza, which any insider on the inside knew was going to produce a victory by Hamas. Now, there might be mixed opinion in this room on whether Hamas should have won the election - that's fine, but the fact is that Hamas still has not renounced violence, they still have not recognised Israel, they still have not recognised past agreements and Barack Obama did oppose the ideological imposition of formal democracy when there were not the commitments to rule of law by the citizenry underneath it. Now that's a very fundamental distinction. We need a president who understands what constitutionalism is and puts American might towards growing constitutionalism which is an independent judiciary, respect for the rule of law, respect for free speech - as opposed to just dumping elections or democratic institutions on a people or nation as we've seen.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to bring in Saad Al-Ajmi.
SAAD AL-AJMI
I couldn't agree more with the gentleman's question, because the implication of it is that the American policy in the world and in our region is very important to us. We need to know what kind of policy is going to be conducted after the elections, whatever the outcome of the presidential race is. Because I think he (the questioner) brought up a very important issue, because we cannot just say: "Okay, America could just stay out of this region, stay out of the world," because it's not, on the one hand. On the other hand, this is a very vital - economically vital for the world - region and volatile at the same time and America cannot just sit idle and then say: "Okay, we want the oil to flow from this region but we are not going to do anything about it." They have a responsibility in what they have started in Iraq, and I think that it is irresponsible for an administration or a presidential candidate to say: "Look, I'm just going to pack up and leave," on the one hand ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
He's not saying he's going to pack up and leave. He's saying over 16 months until the summer of 2010, more than seven years after the war...
SAAD AL-AJMI
Well that's...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me, can I make my point as well? Thank you very much.
SAAD AL-AJMI
Have you made your point?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not yet.
SAAD AL-AJMI
You're talking more than the panellists, Tim..and the audience.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sixteen months to withdraw, it's not just pack up and leave, let's be accurate.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
I think that nobody has done more damage to the issue of democracy in the Middle East than George Bush and John McCain by linking a failed war in Iraq to the case of democracy. A war that was started first at the wrong or false premise of weapons of mass destruction. Then when they couldn't find that, they linked that to democracy, which really made dictators and gave dictators in the area an excuse to everybody who is asking for democracy, to say "Look at Iraq. You want the Americans to come and do that to your country?" and people of course would rather live with their own dictators than have this kind of havoc that we have seen in Iraq.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, thank you. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row.
We'll get a microphhone to you.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening, I'm from Qatar. I have one question for Mr. Hafez Al-Mirazi and Mr. Michael. They don't think that Barack Obama.. the Jewish lobby, they're going to use him because he was born from a Muslim family, so to get more and more? And we know, you know, that he doesn't have any experience before.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes - Hafez?
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
Well, I think, my belief - from watching America or observing American elections for a long time - that if you would like to look for any change in the Arab-Israeli conflict, really look at the, watch the Israeli elections rather than the American elections. You wouldn't find much difference. The American administration has decided to write off the whole region and leave Israel to decide who is going to move. We have witnessed that in Oslo and in many cases in which the initiative is coming from Israel - whether it's Rabin, Ehud Barak or Sharon - so this is the first thing. The other one is that there is something called the Israel factor in which Israeli scholars and experts would decide since the beginning of the primary who would be good for the security of Israel. Obama has never been in the top. McCain wasn't on the top of many lists for a long time, so I would think that Obama is not looked at as someone to be a foe or friend of Israel, but the American system and the American establishment has decided itself on the side of Israel in the Arab-Israeli conflict which it is.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. I'm going to ask Saad Al-Ajmi to come in here.
SAAD AL-AJMI
McCain is 72. If he is elected the president, that's the climax of his career. He wants to go down in history to do something really important and make a print in history. Obama is young, he's in his 40s, he will be thinking of a second term. The last thing he will have in his mind is actually the Middle East and solving the unjust Palestinian plight and he will be thinking of a second term and perhaps, as you said, conspiracy has it, he will try probably to distance himself from his middle name, Hussein. Let's not be taken and carried away by emotions - and I like your question, I think it's a very good question, thank you.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
This is the fallacy of the second term. We have always hoped in the Arab World that if we wait for the second term, we are going to be strong, and look at George Bush. He has done worse in the second term than he did in the first term.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Question from the lady in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm an American. In one of his speeches, Obama described McCain as ‘Bush by another name'. Don't you agree that McCain is just a carbon copy of Bush?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Who would you like to answer that?
AUDIENCE (F)
The against side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Michael Signer.
MICHAEL SIGNER
A carbon copy but kind of.. if you turn up the colour and make it a little bit more sinister, yes. I mean, he is...and it's worse because again as we had with the discussion about Iran, we have seen so many years of failure so far and it's made even more aggravated because we have the facts where the results are in on a lot of these approaches and he's proposing just to double down. I mean, he is a gambler and he is proposing the kind of, I mean, we have.. in football we have hail Mary passes in the United States and that's kind of a lot of what I see, what we all see, with a lot of the policies he's represented, so yes - and you see that on policies from Iraq to Iran to, you know, I mean, his general foreign policy which seems to reiterate the same unilateralism and the same kind of bullying tendencies that we've seen amount to nought.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. Danielle Pletka, you want to come in here.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, I hope I'm going to get a softball question like that in a moment, I'm really looking forward to it. Let me just say, I don't think that John McCain is a carbon copy of George W. Bush and if he were, George W. Bush would have a lot more affection for him. Let's be frank, these two don't get along very well and the main reason for it is that John McCain since 2003 - one year after the beginning of the war in Afghanistan - stood up and said: "We need to have a 9/11 commission, we need to change the way we're dealing with the question of security in the United States, we need to have a Department of Homeland Security, we need to close Guantanamo Bay, we need to have a different policy on global warming, we need to have a different policy on detainee treatment, we need to have a military commission that actually tries, as opposed to merely incarcerates, prisoners in Guantanamo Bay," a bill, by the way, that Barack Obama voted against. I don't think that John McCain is a carbon copy of George W. Bush. I hope that he will be a much more thoughtful, much more sensitive, better leader than George W. Bush has been and I hope we'll make that argument to you here tonight.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just go to the questioner for a moment. What do you think? You think he's a carbon copy of George Bush, McCain?
AUDIENCE (F)
Well, he's almost the same, as he said.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why?
AUDIENCE (F)
His procedures are almost all the same as Bush's procedures.. and his policies.
TIM SEBASTIAN
His procedures - what do you mean, his policies?
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes, the way he wants to run the country.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right. We'll take a question from the lady in the fourth row there, in the green.
AUDIENCE (F)
I am from Somalia. McCain - he said in one of his statements on the BBC that America is better off than for the last eight years. However, unemployment has increased, 80 million have lost their jobs and gas prices increased by two hundred percent. How is it better? And what's his strategies to manage this crisis, while he is giving priority to military investment.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Danielle Pletka, do you want to take that?
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, first of all ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not your softball that you asked for?
DANIELLE PLETKA
No, it's not the softball but I respect the audience. I think that John McCain, when he said that we were better off, was talking about national security questions. Although I think that he is an optimist, I don't think that he's blind and we have to recognise that in the current economic situation, very few of us are better off than we were a few years ago, but I also think that it's important to understand what the solutions are. One of the things that I fear about a United States under Senator Obama is a United States that turns inward, a United States that talks about how we need to put more burden on our allies and do less ourselves, a United States that doesn't worry about the safety and security of people like you, because we're talking about trade, we're talking about renegotiating trade agreements, we talking about raising taxes. Let me tell you, I think that John McCain's ideas on the economy are very important to look at. John McCain does not want to raise Americans' taxes. John McCain does not want to stop foreign corporations from investing in the United States. John McCain wants a world that is full of free traders, trade that actually enables not only our workers but workers overseas. John McCain does not want to renegotiate the North American free trade agreement as Barack Obama and Joe Biden have said that they want to. I believe that those are solutions in the right direction. There is no silver bullet and I don't think any presidential candidate will tell you they are, but crippling our economy is not going to help anyone in the world, least of all the United States.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me just go back to the questioner a moment. Do you think either of the candidates would do anything for you in this region here, if you have the impression that either of them are interested in this region?
AUDIENCE (F)
Actually I think John McCain, he will not do anything for this.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And Barack Obama, you think he would?
AUDIENCE (F)
I think Obama, he will do best in that way.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why?
AUDIENCE (F)
Because he's not interested that much in military, he's interested more in health insurance and in peace, more than John McCain.. and also John McCain, he said in one of his statements that: "The day we lose our will to fight is the day we lose our freedom." Fight, fight, fight.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Have you lost your will to fight? Do you want to be allied with an America that has lost its will to fight, that has stopped investing in its defence so that we can come to the defence of our allies? Do you want to be in Kuwait when the next Saddam Hussein invades and the United States says: "Sorry"?
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
Why are you denying Hamas and the Palestinians the right also to fight?
DANIELLE PLETKA
Why don't you ask Michael who you're sitting next to, who just talked about Hamas's illegitimacy?
MICHAEL SIGNER
Barack Obama has never talked about a defence cut and that is an irresponsible characterisation..
DANIELLE PLETKA
Twenty-five percent. Barney Frank, who is the lead Democrat...
MICHAEL SIGNER
That is an irresponsible characterisation..
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please don't talk at the same time.
MICHAEL SIGNER
I want to say one thing about what Miss Pletka said - a very interesting comment. I kind of had to make sure that I was hearing it right, which is I think that you characterise multilateralism as turning inward because you said that if we were to stop being unilateral and acting on our own, that that would be turning inward? I've never heard such a warped, illogically ...
DANIELLE PLETKA
I have never had my words corrupted quite so dishonestly.
MICHAEL SIGNER
Well, what was turning inward?
DANIELLE PLETKA
The United States risks turning inwards because we are preoccupied with an economic crisis. If that is not something apparent to you from the current rhetoric of the Democratic Party, perhaps you've been hanging out in Qatar for too long. I hate to tell you but multilateralism is extraordinarily important. On the other hand ...
MICHAEL SIGNER
"On the other hand", so you don't believe in multilateralism. Right, that's what I wanted to find out.
DANIELLE PLETKA
... suggesting, oh, that's fine, you shove it all on to our allies and see what happens.
MICHAEL SIGNER
That's what I was saying, so shoving it all on to allies, this is a demonisation of multilateralism.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Again, multilateralism is a tool, it is not a goal.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we not talk together. Hafez, you wanted to make a point here.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
What's wrong with turning inward? If you have 45 million Americans without health insurance, would you care more about them, or going to Georgia in order to support them?
DANIELLE PLETKA
What's wrong with speaking [inaudible], Hafez.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
If you have people without good education, what's wrong with taking care of your own people before you try to impose your will on the rest of the people?
DANIELLE PLETKA
Ask the audience..ask the audience.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Danielle, have your say.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Ask the audience if the United States steps back would you all like to be in a region under Iranian domination? If that's the case, then there's nothing, let me finish ... Hafez, I let you finish, please allow me. I mean, I am the only woman here, after all, I deserve a small amount of courtesy. Please. That's what turning inward means. Turning inward means ignoring the legitimate concerns that people have about Iranian hegemony.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
You presented two questions, not one. The first one is right - they're all going to say: "Yes, we would welcome it if the US armies and troops get out of our land and our countries," - but would they welcome Iranian? No, they are not going to welcome anybody. They are willing to defend on their own.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Saad Al-Ajmi, yes.
DANIELLE PLETKA
But you asked what's wrong with America turning inwards.
SAAD AL-AJMI
First of all, let me reiterate my position here. I'm not on anybody's team, I am on this people's team, I am on the [inaudible] team.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Perhaps that's news to your team mate.
SAAD AL-AJMI
I have to be very clear. Now, in order not to meddle in the domestic, you know, issue of America, I'm not an American, on the one hand. On the other hand I think that America has a responsibility. There is no such a thing that you can live without China, or you can live without Russia or you can live without America, or you can live without Japan. There is now the world as one. America has leverage over Israel. Who's going to bring about, you know, who's going to exert pressure on Israel to withdraw from the Palestinian land? - The United States of America.
TIM SEBASTIAN
When has it done that, when has it ever done that?
SAAD AL-AJMI
Well, at least now there is a road map, there is a declaration that there has to be a two-state solution which is adopted by us, by the Arab League, and by the Palestinians themselves.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The road map's dead.
SAAD AL-AJMI
...saying that we want to have a viable, peaceful, two-state solution where Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. Now, the United States of America is the only country in the world that can exercise this kind of pressure on Israel. This is a very vital and important issue to us here. I don't care about the Americans, with all due respect, American domestic, you know, issues. I mean, I sympathise with everybody, with any human being anywhere in the world, but I'm not God, I'm not going to fix America, I'm not going to fix the world. My priority is......hold on...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please come to a conclusion.
SAAD AL-AJMI
I'll come to a conclusion. My priority is actually to prioritise the important issues that are vital for this region.. and FYI Hafez, Joe the Plumber is not a plumber and his name's not Joe.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
That's what John McCain told us.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to go to a gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you very much. I'm Iraqi. I just want to take the Iranian segment of what both teams have presented to us. Actually I would just bluntly ask, who opened the door to Iran to meddle and intervene in the Iraqi affairs? You Americans, I mean, the Europeans, the Americans, kept yourself busy with superficial activities for two years and the gates of the border between Iraq and Iran were opened. Every Iranian had the right at that time, had the opportunity, to go inside Iraq and do whatever he do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could we have a question please?
AUDIENCE (M)
The question is; I think McCain will pursue the same failed policy which has been pursued by George Bush, George W. Bush, and if there is anything different from that, just enlighten us please and let us know. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Danielle Pletka.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, thank you for being here first of all. It's really a pleasure for me to see Iraqis here, a particular pleasure actually. I do disagree with you. I agree with the first part of what you said. I think that you are absolutely right that the United States was unbelievably irresponsible and in many ways naïve in the way that it treated Iran inside Iraq. The fact that the borders were ignored, the fact that we concentrated on certain areas and not others, the fact that we allowed certain groups to get a toehold inside Iraq was irresponsible, it was the leadership of George W. Bush, he needs to be the person responsible for that. But I will also underscore that in 2003, before almost anybody and as a result of visit and then subsequent visit after visit to Iraq, John McCain came back and he said: "Not only are we mishandling this, not only are there not enough troops in Iraq, but the strategy is wrong. We are pursuing a bad strategy that is allowing enemies of ourselves, the Iraqi people and our allies, to take hold." He recommended that, he pressured the president very hard. They got him a lot of very serious arguments, and I think that that made a lot of difference and that's why Iraq is right to want a road to stability.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, you want to come back on that.
AUDIENCE (M)
Well, I just want to comment on that. I think, as an Iraqi, everybody in Iraq, especially those people who had the opportunity to speak to the Americans at that time, in the first few years - everybody kept telling the Americans that you have to do something to block the intervention of the Iranians into Iraq. Your people replied and repeatedly say that you have not the, you know, motion or the way by which that you can keep the border blocked between Iraq and Iran, and I.. well, it's something to be astonished about, something very curious. How could such an armada which came thousands and thousands of miles from Iraq, came and invaded Iraq and occupied it, cannot block the border within its seven or six entrances between Iraq and Iran. This is the problem. I mean, there was something wrong or deliberately done on the part of the Americans that gave the Iranians a chance to come and intervene in the Iraqi ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Saad Al-Ajmi, you wanted to make a point.
SAAD AL-AJMI
I agree with you. I said exactly almost the same thing to President Bush when I met him last January in the White House with five other Arabs before he came to the region and did his tour. And I said exactly the same thing - that this policy had actually strengthened Iran. Now, in politics you deal with realities, realpolitik. What's happening now? Iranian influence is very strong in Iraq. What are you going to do about it? Obama says he's going to give them a blank cheque for whatever they want to do, whereas McCain says no, there are Security Council Resolutions that Iran must abide by, and Iran must stop its intervention in Iraq and other parts of the region, which we want Iran to exercise, but Obama didn't - and therefore I think that McCain's agenda is compatible with mine. It's in agreement with mine rather than the other way round.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Hafez Al-Mirazi wants to come in.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
I mean, I wasn't fortunate enough to meet George Bush as President.
SAAD AL-AJMI
I met Obama too.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
However, I met Bush before he got into politics in 1988, but anyway, the issue is clear. We are talking about John McCain as if this guy knows everything about Iraq, Iran, everything - John McCain relied on Lieberman while he was in Jordan talking about Taliban and Iran helping the Taliban in Iraq and they told him: "Sir, Taliban is not Shia, Taliban is Sunni and has nothing to do with Iran," so this is what we are getting into. John McCain is the one who said he was willing to spend 100 years in Iraq if needed, so I don't think that John McCain and what he would like to prescribe for the area is good. John McCain would like to get into another war with Iran, he has unfinished business, his grandfather was a commander for the Pacific in World War Two, his father was a commander in the Vietnam War. John McCain would like to be a commander-in-chief of a war and it's going to be Iran if he gets into office.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we're going to move to a question in the front row, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Qatar. Very recently a politics of hate was created in the United States by John McCain against Senator Barack Obama, where millions of people rioted against Senator Barack Obama, claiming that he's a terrorist - just because I think, because he wanted to meet with... he claimed he wanted to meet unconditionally with the leaders of Iran and the Middle Eastern regions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're blaming McCain's camp for creating politics of hate, are you?
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, but how can he be better off in the White House for the Middle East if he created a politics of hate in the United States against someone from the United States?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let Danielle Pletka answer this.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe Michael does.
MICHAEL SIGNER
I do.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Sure, why don't you talk about that and I'd like to hear your views on the Lieberman question too, because you know what that meant as well.
MICHAEL SIGNER
I'll answer the audience's questions. I thought that it was a reprehensible and shocking episode in American politics that unfortunately does have precedent in Republican attack tear-down.
DANIELLE PLETKA
What was, what was?
MICHAEL SIGNER
The sanctioning of the labelling of Barack Obama as somebody who has terrorist sympathies, which was... the McCain campaign opened the door and they closed it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're talking about Sarah Palin's comments ...
MICHAEL SIGNER
...labelling the Diaz connections. There's a 1960s radical who he sat on a court with ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
... that Obama was palling around with terrorists.
MICHAEL SIGNER
... was palling around with terrorists, that they were imputing some kind of connection between him and sympathies with terrorists groups and then that was being conjoined with this whisper campaign that he was somehow a Muslim, which shouldn't even in its own right be wrong - and this was sanctioned by the GOP.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Michael Signer, let Danielle Pletka ...
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, I mean, I guess having gone to school and gotten a degree, I thought I had risen out of the gutter, but apparently I haven't. I don't agree with you, I don't think you're right. I think that John McCain has not only been honourable in how he's dealt with this, but that he has called people on... and there are certainly elements in American society who have suggested that Obama is a Muslim, there are certainly elements in American society who think that that's a bad thing, but I would say that John McCain has aggressively and personally repudiated not only those people, but any such campaign, as by the way I think is only right, and by the way, Senator Obama has acknowledged that he has done that very respectfully and appropriately. I wish we could carry that respect and appropriate behaviour over here as well.
MICHAEL SIGNER
The vice-presidential nominee said he was palling around with terrorists and John McCain never repudiated his own nominee, his own partner.
DANIELLE PLETKA
William Ayres was a terrorist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So do you support Sarah Palin's comment, the running mate of John McCain, that Obama was palling around with terrorists - you think that's justified?
DANIELLE PLETKA
Barack Obama began his political career in William Ayers' living room.
MICHAEL SIGNER
He did not. That is a lie. He did not. He did not. He begun it in a hotel room that was rented, he did not. This is a lie. There's no facts about this at all.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Danielle Pletka.
DANIELLE PLETKA
He began it in William Ayers' living room.
MICHAEL SIGNER
He did not.
DANIELLE PLETKA
And William Ayers is, I'm sorry, responsible as a part of the Weather Underground for a campaign of terrorism in the United States that resulted in the death of Americans.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Which Obama has repudiated. Thoroughly.
DANIELLE PLETKA
I think that's wonderful but notwithstanding, he has associated himself with him over the years and I think that that raises questions that deserve to be answered.
MICHAEL SIGNER
This is a smear and unless you answer it, it won't be answered. He did not begin his campaign in the domestic terrorist's living-room. It is a lie.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Michael, just because you say it, doesn't mean it's ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you've made the point, you've made the point, thank you. Did you have something else as well?
DANIELLE PLETKA
No, I think it would be nice to move away from this particular conversation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you like to come back on that?
AUDIENCE (M)
No thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't blame you, I don't blame you. Gentleman in the third row, in the blue shirt.
AUDIENCE (M)
First of all, why are the vast majority of McCain's supporters ignorant red-neck Americans who walk around claiming that Arabs are terrorists? And...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, we've dealt with that actually. Could we have a question please to this side of the argument. We seem to be getting all the questions over here, but can we have a question to this side. We have dealt with that.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
I just want to...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We have dealt with that issue..
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
No. You dealt with the domestic terrorism but we haven't dealt with the idea of using the word ‘Muslim' or an ‘Arab' as an accusation. You are a Muslim, you are accused of being a Muslim.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to take a question for your side of the argument. I want a question for this side, thank you very much. Lady in the front row, do you have a question for this side of the house?
AUDIENCE (F)
Thank you. Good evening.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's for this side of the house, is it?
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes. Do you really think that Obama has a practical chance of winning this election?
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
Well, all the polls are saying yes, he does have it, including the Pew Research poll issued today for the fourth consecutive one - they are giving him the lead. Today it was 52 to 36, so this is the biggest lead so far.
MICHAEL SIGNER
And it's not just that. I mean, one of the most important statistics in the recent polls: of the people who are supporting Barack Obama, twice as many are highly enthusiastic about him as the people who are supporting John McCain. They have basically been dragged into this Republican nominee kicking and screaming and that means that there's going to be a really tremendous turn-out of support for Barack Obama which can counter any negative, so we're very confident that there will be a heavy turn-out for him and that he's going to win.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
I see an Obama T-shirt here, by the way.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, lady in the second row, you have a question.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening. I'm American and Miss Pletka, I've lived here for ten years and I wonder if you've ever lived in the Middle East because I think many people here would like an America that would turn inward, but my question - we would like an America that isn't involved, as involved, in trying to control the Middle East - but my question is, should we not also consider that anybody that is elected as President of the United States is a heartbeat away from going out of office and their vice-presidential candidate essentially holding all that power - and therefore how should we perceive the selection of Sarah Palin for McCain's vice-presidential candidate? I mean, the idea that she would in essence be the president is frightening to me, whereas Joe Biden has a long, long history [applause] whereas Joe Biden, you know, has a long history and particularly a long history dealing with the foreign policies.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, let Danielle Pletka ...
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, thank you for your question, it's nice to see Americans here as well. I think that when you try and stack up one presidential candidate against another vice-presidential candidate, you have pretty much the same experience. Sarah Palin has been a governor of a state, I don't disrespect that in America. I think it's an important qualification. She was mayor of her town, I don't disrespect that. Senator Obama was the senator for a few years and before that he was a local representative and before that he was a community organiser and I respect that a lot too. On the other hand, Barack Obama if elected isn't going to be a heart-beat away from the presidency. He's going to be the President of the United States and that's who we vote for. I'm not going to kill off John McCain tonight for you, I'm sorry. I think that each presidential candidate chooses the vice-presidential candidate who they think will best represent America and do a good job. I think real Americans are actually qualified for political office, not just people who dedicate their lives to their personal ambitions. The American people will choose and Sarah Palin will be part of that choice just as Joe Biden has been.
MICHAEL SIGNER
So Barack Obama's not a real American because he's pursued political office? You just characterised Sarah Palin as a real American in distinction to Barack Obama. This is what I'm talking about.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, no, it's not what you're talking about. Again you're trying to twist words, and I don't understand, Michael, why you can't argue on the merits. Why can't you argue on the merits? Sarah Palin is a woman from Alaska who rose up through political office. She has a family, she has five kids, she has not dedicated her life to her personal ambition. I respect and admire her much as I just articulated my respect and admiration for Barack Obama. I think that's the appropriate tenor for American politics. I like it that way.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right. Well, we're going to take a question from the lady in the second row there.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening. I'm from Dubai. Sarah Palin and the Republican camp are suggesting drilling in North American and Alaskan reserves, oil reserves, to reduce dependency on the Middle East. How exactly is that good for the Middle Eastern economies? Thank you.
DANIELLE PLETKA
That's a most interesting question and one that I didn't expect. I think that there is a world market in oil and I think that when Americans feel that they are not dependent on any one particular source of oil, it eliminates the sort of demonisation that we've seen accompanying this debate. I think that Americans should drill in the United States much as the British should drill in the North Sea, much as the Saudis should drill in Saudi Arabia, etc, etc. The truth is that we all need to use the oil that's being drilled until there's an alternative found and the American people seem to support that idea. Will it be good for the Middle East? I think that an America secure in its oil supply will be good for everybody.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you accept that? Do you accept that argument?
AUDIENCE (F)
Not entirely, but I'm struggling with quite a few of the arguments, to be honest with you. As an observation, I find it terrifying that an attribute of the Republican McCain camp is viewed that there's no confusion as to whether or not he would choose military action as an option - I find that terrifying. Equally I find it rather frightening that your opening, with all due respect, Michael, was what sounded to me like a sympathy vote for Obama and his possible sensibilities towards being black or downtrodden or whatever it is. I find very little substance here and I find it really tragic that these are the only two offerings that the world has at the moment - not to be pessimistic but, so do I accept the argument? Not entirely, but I appreciate it being put forward. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Saad Al-Ajmi, since you don't support any of the camps... and you are an issues man ...
SAAD AL-AJMI
I'm not an economist either. I wanted to say that we also in this region have to think about our economies with this very dire financial crisis the world is going through and the oil prices are actually dropping to half actually over the past fourteen weeks from what they were last June and we have to find an alternative. I think that the GCC countries are thinking of peaceful nuclear power as an alternative and solar energy as an alternative, because the oil is going to dry up and dry out some day.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. Hafez.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
It's very legitimate, as Danielle says, for everybody to drill and to be self-sufficient for anything, but when you link that with saying, as McCain did say, that we would like to be independent from oil coming from countries where they hate us or exactly mostly where hate us, this is really where it becomes unacceptable or unfriendly for the audience here, for a politician to ask for oil sufficiency because he doesn't want to deal with those people.
DANIELLE PLETKA
Hafez, I don't think Senator McCain has said that.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
I just want to add one thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let him just finish.
HAFEZ AL-MIRAZI
The second thing is that you shouldn't take it personally when Mike objected to the word ‘real American' about Sarah Palin, because we have witnessed a coded language that is used by the Republican - things like ‘country first', ‘real American', all of that questioning people's citizenship, loyalty, and I think this is what pushed Colin Powell to endorse Obama, because of this kind of language.
DANIELLE PLETKA
I'm glad that you've been talking to Colin Powell.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to come back on that?
DANIELLE PLETKA
Well, I don't think it's fair, I don't think it's right and I think that actually while there have been people who have made really obnoxious comments about Senator McCain's age, about his health, about his personal history, there have been many who have made offensive comments about Senator Obama and others - but as to the oil debate, I think that energy independence has been the mantra of both the Democratic and the Republican parties, and frankly I have to confess that other than on the question of drilling, I haven't seen a huge amount of rhetorical difference between the two.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay. I'm going to ask for questions again to this side because they seem to have swung back again, so questions to this side please. Over there, gentleman over there.
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm a Sudanese Brit, if you want to call it. I would like to draw attention to a fact that neither Senator Obama nor McCain address an issue that is very important to me, which is Darfur. I believe that the Sudanese government is getting away with murder and I believe neither candidate actually addressed the issue enough and Sudan is the largest country in Africa and the ninth largest country in the world, with huge oil, water and mineral resources and it's about to basically disintegrate - and if it disintegrates, the effect of that is going to be catastrophic and I thought it very irresponsible on the part of the candidate for the most important office in the world to ignore such an issue. Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Michael, you advised John Edwards on foreign policy. Did you advise him on Darfur?
MICHAEL SIGNER
Oh certainly, he was...well, that campaign is done and finished, but he was very active on the Darfur issue and calling for divestment campaigns and we actually, he divested his personal holding, Senator Edwards did, and he worked with student groups and the whole citizen movement around this issue and we introduced a plan and I do believe Senator Obama's actually ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you think that's enough of a response to genocide?
MICHAEL SIGNER
... has actually been quite vocal. Well, I mean, we have to get in office first, and I do believe Senator Obama has been quite vocal on the need for much more aggressive concerted action. His running mate, Senator Biden, has been even more aggressive in talking about actual forward action by the American government and there is a ... But you're right, it's a very frustrating, difficult problem that I think is approaching a tipping point right now in terms of its internal geopolitics. I've heard rumours even while I've been here that the country is actually approaching a potential split and I do think that Obama has talked very, very actively about the need for the United States to pressure and use our carrots and sticks and move the UN plan much more aggressively along and work with other multi-lateral institutions and I think he just needs to get into office to be able to make it happen.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. John McCain, on Darfur, has he had a say on Darfur? Has he anything to offer?
SAAD AL-AJMI
I don't know but I think that if Obama is elected in office, he will shy away from the region as a whole and I think that he is not going to be interested and the least on his list of priorities will be Darfur and the genocide in Darfur ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And what makes you think that?
SAAD AL-AJMI
... because I've been following the campaign trail, I was in America until last month. I claim to be an observer of the presidential campaign and I haven't had actually any clear position of Obama vis-à-vis the Iraqi situation, the Iranian situation, the Palestinian Arab- Israeli conflict, let alone Darfur.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, gentleman in the fourth row, you have a question.
AUDIENCE (M)
May I just comment please on, just one comment on ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Briefly.
AUDIENCE (M)
Yes, briefly. There hasn't been a single policy statement, a meaningful policy statement from the US regarding the conflict of Darfur. Actually the people of Darfur believe that there is some sort of an obscene complicity between some policy-makers in Washington and the government of Sudan.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I take your point. Gentleman in the fourth row, you. Can we get a microphone to you?
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Qatar and I would like to ask Miss Pletka, you said that a two-state policy would be the best solution for the Palestinian issue and better for the Middle East, but how could you say that when it's clear Western opinion. Shouldn't we ask what the Palestinians themselves want?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm sorry, it wasn't very clear. Can you do that again?
AUDIENCE (M)
You said that a two-state policy would be the best solution for the Palestinian issue and better for the Middle East, but how could you say that when it's clearly a Western opinion? Shouldn't we ask the Palestinians themselves?
SAAD AL-AJMI
I think this is actually the position, the official position of the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, the Palestine Liberation Organisation and the Palestinian government, as well as the Arab government in the Arab Initiative in the Arab League, so it's not really an American position. It has only become an American position recently. This has actually been adopted by the Arabs a long time ago, to be fair.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Gentleman in the second row there, you. You've had your hand up for a long time.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening ladies and gentlemen. My question ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you tell us where you're from?
AUDIENCE (M)
I'm from Afghanistan. Actually my question goes to both sides. I want to ask, how do you compare, how do you see the foreign policies of both candidates, John McCain and Barack Obama in regard to Afghanistan and about the mess is going on in Afghanistan. Which one is better and why is it better?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Michael Signer, we know which you think is better but would you like to enlighten us on what it is?
MICHAEL SIGNER
Thank you, it's an excellent question and I think on this area Barack Obama has unquestionably demonstrated extraordinary leadership in calling public attention and in proposing precise policies about Afghanistan. I mean, he identified the trade-off, the zero sum relationship - because we have limited military forces that has happened of the way in which the Iraq war was prosecuted, how long it took, how long it's bogged down our troops, and the real war that we've needed to fight, which is the taking over yet again of the state of Afghanistan by the Taliban... and Barack Obama has been all over that problem. He has been sounding the clarion call for months if not years on it and I do believe it'll be a major emphasis of his presidency.
AUDIENCE (M)
What's the difference, what's the real difference?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Danielle Pletka, do you want come in on this?
DANIELLE PLETKA
Thank you for the question. I think that, well, I'm very pleased to hear that Senator Obama has been calling attention to this for months. I can only echo Hillary Clinton's accusation that in his sub-committee and the Foreign Relations Committee, he never held a hearing on the question. This was his first visit to Afghanistan despite many opportunities to have gone with fellow senators both Democrats and Republicans. It is good that he's come to this realisation. It's important and I think that he has shown leadership in the Democratic party on this question, but there should be no doubt that he's a ‘Johnny-come-lately'. Let me just underscore what I think the right answer is having said what I think Senator Obama's position is. John McCain has said that he would send three additional brigades to Afghanistan. He's also said that we should double the size of the Afghan National Army. Finally John McCain has said, and I think he said appropriately, that it's not just enough to turn around and say: "Hey, we need more troops," because more troops aren't always the right answer. We need more troops and we need a different strategy to fight, because clearly this has gotten out of our hands.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You want to come back on that.
AUDIENCE (M)
It's known that John McCain is definitely going to follow that strategy, the foreign strategies of George W. Bush in regard to Afghanistan, and you know.. the bombarding of civilian villages in Afghanistan - what do you think about that?
DANIELLE PLETKA
I think that in any instance where civilian villagers have been hit, it is a tragedy. I do not believe that John McCain is going to pursue the policies of George W. Bush in Afghanistan for the simple reason that George W. Bush has had no policy in Afghanistan, which has been a big problem for not only our country but yours. Saad, you lifted your hand.
SAAD AL-AJMI
Yes, I think in that regard, in that particular regard, Obama is more of a Bush strategist rather than anything else, because he wants to take troops from Iraq and send them to Afghanistan, and he wants to actually have a surge in Afghanistan and shy away from the mess that has actually been primarily created by the United States of America in Iraq, and that's wrong.
TIM SEBASTIAN
As an Afghan citizen, which arguments are more appealing to you?
AUDIENCE (M)
As far as I have observed both foreign policies of John McCain and Barack Obama, somehow if John McCain doesn't change his foreign policy from the, like, if there is no difference between Bush's foreign policies and John McCain's foreign policies, Barack Obama will be the best choice for Afghanistan.
DANIELLE PLETKA
That's an important ‘if' though, isn't it?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, thank you very much. There's a lady in the row behind you, another question.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi, I'm from Kuwait. My question is for Mr. Al-Ajmi, which relates to a primary proposal made by Barack Obama which also has to do with the US retreating in Iraq, that directly affects us as Arabs and within in this region. You mentioned that if the US leaves Iraq, Iraq will become a country of chaos and that Iran would most likely take over, and that you do not want Iran to possess nuclear weapons. Well, my question is, why shouldn't a Muslim country take over Iraq and take care of their Muslim brothers? We have seen the US and what they have done, the damage they have caused in Iraq, and the many Iraqi casualties, and the majority of the population in Iraq would like the US to retreat. So I ask: why is the US, who is a superpower, who also possesses nuclear weapons - which much of the world fails to address - why are they as it seems to me, the US is so intimidated by Iran possessing nuclear weapons and retreating from the area?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Saad Al-Ajmi.
SAAD AL-AJMI
I'm actually surprised that you're from Kuwait and you ask a question like that, because we all remember how, what happened to us Arabs when our brother and neighbours invaded us and took over Kuwait and what happened to Kuwait, so I think that you don't have a point in that question, with all due respect. On the other question, I'm not saying that, you know, there is no such thing as an Islamic nuclear bomb. A nuclear bomb does not make, you know, a distinction between people, God forbid, if it is exploded, on the one hand. On the other hand, I'm not saying that Israel should be let off the hook with its nuclear arsenal. What I'm saying is that Iran is a signatory to the IAEA and if you cannot bring Israel to the IAEA table to be a signatory, then the United States of America ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
The International Atomic Energy Agency.
SAAD AL-AJMI
Exactly, yes. ... must exert all pressure on Israel to bring it to the table to sign the IAEA, whereas there are Security Council resolutions regarding the non-compliance of Iran with the treaties that it has signed. Now, the final point here is that the mess there is in Iraq now is primarily created by the United States of America but I'm not saying that the only blame is on the United States of America, because there are regional powers who have their own agendas and they don't want actually the agenda of the Iraqis to prevail. Everyone has its own agenda in order to abort the Iraqi project for democracy and stability, and if America leaves, it is leaving behind its moral and political responsibility towards the Iraqis.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Let the questioner just come back briefly.
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes. I would like to say, as a Kuwaiti, we all know that that motion was made by Saddam Hussein, not by the Iraqi population, by the Iraqi citizens. That's what I was discussing right now. And second, we're not discussing how the US does not comply, or how the US aids Israel with their weapons, we don't discuss that, yet we discuss how Iran possesses their nuclear weapons and how they do not comply to IAEA. Well, if you're in support of that, then you're supporting the US taking over, helping Israel take over Palestine and not giving them their land back.
SAAD AL-AJMI
I've said this all along, that this is not actually the case and that's why I'm here. The reason I'm here and the number one point that I wanted to underscore and highlight is that Palestine is the address of the conscience of all Arabs and Muslims and all peace-loving nations in the world, and the reason I came and agreed to come to this debate is because I wanted to remind the world of the important issues that are of concern to us in this region come November 4th.

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right - and with that we have come to the point in the proceedings, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to vote on the motion that ‘This House believes the Middle East would be better off with John McCain in the White House.'  Would you please pick up your voting machines.  If you want to vote for the motion - that's the McCain camp represented by Danielle Pletka and Saad Al-Ajmi - please press button one.  If you want to vote against the motion - that is the Obama camp represented by Michael Signer and Hafez Al-Mirazi - please press button two and would you press the appropriate button now.  You only have to press it once because through the miracles of modern technology, your vote will be transmitted to our computers and we should have the result for you in about twenty seconds.  All right, the results should be coming up on the screen any moment now.  There it is, there it is.  13% percent for the motion, 87 percent against.  The motion has been resoundingly rejected.
HAFEZ AL MIRAJI
Is that historic?
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's quite a record for the Doha Debates, I have to say.  All I will say is, thank you very much to our panellists, distinguished panellists, for making their way here.  Some of you have come a great distance, we appreciate it enormously.  Thanks very much to you, the audience.  The Doha Debates will be back again next month.  Till then from all of us on the programme, have a safe journey home.  Good night.