This House believes Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemy

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates sponsored by the Qatar Foundation. The bitter divisions among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza show little sign of being healed. A deal worked out between them last year in Saudi Arabia proved a spectacular failure, since when neither Hamas nor Fatah seem ready to compromise. How damaging are these divisions to the hopes of Palestinian statehood, to their daily life and their ability to conduct a peace process with Israel? - questions that our motion tonight is designed to address: 'This House believes that the Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemy. ' Speaking for the motion, Akram Baker, an independent political analyst. He co-founded the Arab-Western Summit of Skills, a body designed to increase efficiency and transparency in the Arab World. And with him Munther Dajani, a professor at Al-Quds University in Jerusalem and director of the Issam Sartawi Center for the Advancement of Peace and Democracy. Against the motion, Hind Khoury. She is the Palestinian Delegate General in France and a former minister for Jerusalem affairs. And with her Saree Makdisi, who is Professor of English and Comparative Literature at the University of California Los Angeles. He's the author of Palestine Inside Out: An Everyday Occupation, and he's the fourth member of our panel. So now let me first ask Akram Baker to speak for the motion.

AKRAM BAKER
Thank you, Tim. I support this motion with a truly heavy heart and I'm going to keep it very brief. The fact is that public enemy number one for the peace process is the Israeli occupation and there is no getting around that fact. The problem is that we are truly at risk of becoming our own worst enemy. That has happened because the Palestinian leadership has dropped the ball, has taken its eye off the goal, which is to end the Israeli occupation. They've become caricatures of themselves. We need to look deep inside ourselves, some honest and open, constructive criticism, if we are going to somehow find a way out of this mess. It really started in 1998, and I have to look at this - that the PLO failed in transforming itself from a revolutionary movement into an efficient government, which was a big problem. We were looking that they would build transparent institutions, we were looking that they would build efficient institutions. What happened is we found that they slowly began descending into the spiral of nepotism and corruption, and I know this because I moved back with my family from Germany where I was an executive at Daimler Financial Services, and I moved back with my family to Palestine to help build, to play my small role in building an efficient Palestine. After five years I was forced to leave by the Israelis, but that is not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is the risk of becoming our own worst enemy. I witnessed the destruction of our institutions by the Israelis from the outside and by the corrupt PA from the inside. I watched Hamas become their dilettantes, I watched them being played by the Iranians, by the Syrians, in the same way that Fatah was played and continues to be played by the United States and by Israel; how the left wing of the Palestinian movement has been played by European NGOs. They were all bought off and all of them have lost their focus on what the real goal is, and that's ending the Israeli occupation, and if we do not take an honest look at ourselves, if here in this motion that we are at risk of becoming our own worst enemy, we will fall into that nightmare and this risk will become a reality.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker, thank you very much indeed.You say that the Palestinian leadership has dropped the ball. Given that they're subject to random targeted assassination and that large numbers of them are actually in jail in Israel, it would be remarkable if they hadn't dropped the ball, wouldn't it?
AKRAM BAKER
There's a lot of things which Israel is responsible for, and I'll say that again, but the fact that we do not have...we did not build transparent. .
TIM SEBASTIAN
But which ball did they drop?
AKRAM BAKER
They dropped the ball of ending the occupation and they just...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, how were they supposed to do it when they were facing the daily pressures from Israel?
AKRAM BAKER
That is their job. It is their job, as the leaders, to face this pressure.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, if they're running for cover or they're being arrested, aren't you expecting a little much from them? You've got to operate in the real world. Politics is the art of the possible, isn't it?
AKRAM BAKER
That's right. Tim, Tim, we all know that, but the fact is that if we cannot help ourselves, no-one is going to help us. The Israeli occupation is our enemy and we have to remain, we have to see it as that and not look for them for VIP or some better treatment.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what should they have done, what's the recommendation? How could they have kept the ball instead of dropped it, how could they have built institutions when people were missing, when people were dying, when people were in jail?
AKRAM BAKER
People have always, unfortunately have always been dying and this is the fact that they were put there to fight and end the occupation, not to look for ways that they could get favouritism from the occupation, and they did drop the ball and in that, in the face of this, we should have built true institutions, institutions which were not based on the people, that even if they were arrested, that someone else...
TIM SEBASTIAN
True institutions when some of the population is facing 50 percent unemployment. Where in the world can you build true institutions with economics at that low level? You can't stabilise a state at that low level.
AKRAM BAKER
Of course we cannot stabilise the state.
TIM SEBASTIAN
50 percent unemployment.
AKRAM BAKER
But we should have and we could have and we can build the foundations from the bottom up that are structurally sound, that can withstand this pressure. The problem is that they weren't looking towards that. They exchanged substance for procedure and that's what's happened, that's what happened in the past and that's what happening today.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're expecting a lot in a military situation, aren't you?
AKRAM BAKER
Of course I'm expecting a lot, that's why leadership... the fact is that we don't have a leadership any more.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker, thank you very much indeed. Now let me ask Hind Khoury please to speak against the motion.

HIND KHOURY
Yes, I am against the motion and I think there is no way Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemies. They are reminded every single day, every single Palestinian is reminded every day who the enemy is. The enemy denies us a normal life. The enemy occupies the land. The enemy builds a wall that separates me from my parents and me from my work. The enemy assassinates people as it pleases, the enemy takes its land, every day. I mean, how can we ever forget? I think. . the nightmare never stopped, we're reminded of it every single day. Yes, this is a situation that will always bring us together because we know who the enemy is. I mean, who can tolerate a situation like Gaza? When the Gazans wake up every morning and they wonder why they don't have fresh water, they know it's the Israelis who deny them electricity, who deny them the passage of goods and the passage of people. The same for us in the West Bank. Six hundred check-points that make our life impossible. We know we can't go collect our olives in season, or trade our goods from one village to the other. We have several economies in the different cantons. Yes, I know that I live in a town where I am only considered a guest in Jerusalem. I don't have rights of being a citizen. I know that if my son goes out to study abroad, he may soon lose his right to come back to his own city and live with his own family, so how can we possibly forget who the enemy is? I also want to say, I think that this statement is a very dangerous statement, because it shifts responsibilities. I mean, here you're telling me that the oppressed are to blame for the oppression. I mean, it's just totally unacceptable. I mean, Israel is responsible and now they're telling us, 'Go and finish your business, and then we'll see if we can come up to, you know, conduct a peace process,' or let alone relieve the international community from its responsibility to see that this project of theirs, I mean, this two-state solution is not our project, it's a project of the international community. Since forty years they told us they want to establish a Palestinian state which is as legitimate as is Israel, yet we don't have it and they are responsible, not us. One last point I want to say is that, well, Israel has pursued a policy of divide and rule for ever so long. I mean, it's normal after forty years that we somehow disagree.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Hind Khoury, thank you very much indeed. You say that the oppressed are being held responsible for the oppression. The oppressed, the Palestinians, are being held responsible for the murder, kidnapping, summary executions, torture and corruption that they practise on their own people and that you know perfectly well goes on in the Palestinian territories. By saying that Israel is the main enemy, you let people off their responsibility for actually doing something about the things that they inflict.
HIND KHOURY
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you saying these things are not being inflicted on the Palestinian people?
HIND KHOURY
No, no, I'm not saying we are a perfect community or a perfect people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but this is not perfection, this is summary execution, torture, murder, flagrant abuse of human rights being carried out by Palestinians in the Palestinian territories.
HIND KHOURY
Yes, yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, you say.
HIND KHOURY
No, this happens. I mean, we're normal and we're human beings.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you're asking this audience to believe that the people, the Palestinians who inflict those things on their own people, are not even at risk of becoming their own worst enemy?
HIND KHOURY
Listen, I'm sorry, I refuse this suggestion that there are good Palestinian leaders who are sitting there perfectly aware of the horrible injustice that is inflicted upon us and they're not working to improve the situation. There are many, many good people out there.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm talking about the Palestinian leaders who inflict this themselves, the factions of Fatah and Hamas who inflict this themselves.
HIND KHOURY
There [is] some misgovernment, that's very true. We are not perfect, that's very true.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You call murder misgovernment? You call murder misgovernment?
HIND KHOURY
There are cases, listen, there are cases, I'm sorry, there aren't really murders going on every day.
TIM SEBASTIAN
There are not.
HIND KHOURY
Listen, the conflict, internal conflict, was horrible, unacceptable. The killing inside amongst Fatah and Hamas is totally unacceptable. It happened. But do you know, the conditions we live in, I mean, we live a divide-and-rule policy that...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And that excuses it?
HIND KHOURY
No, it doesn't excuse it but it explains it, and we need to get over...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you don't think people who do that, those things, to their own people, are their enemies?
HIND KHOURY
Listen, as you know, Tim, we are at the low end of the national struggle but I'm sure these people who have struggled for ever so long will only overcome it and we do have the people I trust will make the right decisions and will build the right institutions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where are these people then?
HIND KHOURY
Oh, there are, I'm telling you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where, where? Why aren't they preventing these terrible abuses of human rights that are going on in the territories?
HIND KHOURY
Oh, excuse me, our human rights are terrible. I mean, we live in conditions where our human rights, the basic human rights, are violated on a daily basis. We have a young. .
TIM SEBASTIAN
If the Israelis disappeared over the horizon, you'd still have to deal with this, wouldn't you?
HIND KHOURY
Listen, we have a young population, half of the population, who knew nothing, the young people, but targeted assassination, imprisonment, [demolition] of the homes, what have they known other than violence? Where in the world do you have a whole population that knew nothing? They don't even play, they don't have education opportunities, they don't have the right to work, they won't find work. What do these young people know? We know that this occupation is dehumanising us.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hind Khoury, thank you very much indeed. Now please let me ask Munther Dajani to speak for the motion.

MUNTHER DAJANI
Actually, I want to pick up where she left. It is for the first time, the aggressor has become the victim, and the victim has become the aggressor. Based on this, we have to re-evaluate, we must have failed somewhere. It is my point of view that we have failed in building institutions. Building institutions, as they taught us in political science, actually leads to rule of law, absence of corruption, transparency and accountability. The problem is, based on what I feel we failed to establish, it ushered in corruption, it ushered in nepotism, and this is very dangerous. We also, as leaders, never engaged the Palestinian public nor the international community. Most of the decisions were not studied well, and that's where we are today. We failed to reform when reform was a necessity. You do not escape reform when it is extremely important for your nation's state building. We failed to build infra-structures, we failed to build hospitals, roads, as well as medical hospitals, and it is our failure which actually we have passed the risk of becoming our worst enemy. When we see where we are today, if we are objective enough, to take a step backwards and just evaluate where we are, we will actually not only say we are at the risk, we are already there. Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Munther Dajani, thank you. You criticise the Palestinians for not building institutions. How do you build institutions when there are walls around? How do you build institutions when key personnel are arrested the whole time? Who do you put in these institutions?
MUNTHER DAJANI
Tim, in 1995 there were no walls. We had a golden opportunity to build a paradigm of a democratic state, accountable, transparent, and we failed. We failed because we were not able to build institutions. Nepotism took us over, corruption helped, and we drifted from. .
TIM SEBASTIAN
But the occupation was still there.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Of course. The occupation will always be there but the occupation will not prevent you from building institutions. Second...Tim, the occupation and the donor community encouraged corruption so they can at any one stage wash their hands and say, 'Look, there is no partner, they are corrupt, they had a chance, what can we do? '
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why would the donor community encourage corruption, why?
MUNTHER DAJANI
You should ask them, you shouldn't ask me. I was an official of the Palestinian National Authority, I was a Director General of the Ministry of Economy and Trade, and I saw this, I was an insider, I am not talking from second-hand information. I helped three top positions in the PLA and I resigned because of. . in protest of corruption. There is a serious problem which we have to address. There was no transparency, no accountability, and this is where, when you have corruption taking you over, this is where you end. We are at the end, because we did not have benchmarks, red lines, where we shouldn't have crossed them, and we are paying the price.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Munther Dajani, thank you very much indeed. Now could I ask please Saree Makdisi to speak against the motion.

SAREE MAKDISI
I think nothing can excuse the kinds of abuses you've been talking about - human rights abuses or corruption. I mean, I have no disagreement with that at all, but I think it's very important to bear in mind that when we're talking about the Palestinians, we're not talking about two or three hundred politicians or bureaucrats, we're not talking about 5,000 or 10,000 or 60,000 guys with guns. We're talking about millions of people. Every single day 4 million Palestinians in the occupied territories - the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem - resist the Israeli occupation non-violently, day in and day out, irrespective of either petty corruption in the PA or grand corruption in the PA, or the squabbling between Fatah and Hamas. The Palestinian people living under occupation have retained a sense of cohesion no matter what the circumstances they face and they're never going to let that go, and they've retained a sense of unity irrespective of the corruption of the Palestinian Authority and the squabbling between Fatah and Hamas. That's a very important point. It's millions of people we're talking about. The second very important point to bear in mind is that most Palestinians don't even live in the occupied territories. Most Palestinians live in exile or as second-class citizens of the state of Israel. They don't live in the West Bank or Gaza or East Jerusalem and hence they're even less party to the conflict between Fatah and Hamas or the squabbling within the PA or the corruption or whatever, they're not part of it. The millions of Palestinians living in exile have, despite sixty years of displacement from their homeland, retained a sense of cohesion, they've retained their sense of identity, they've retained the commitment to the struggle which binds them all together with those living under occupation and those inside Israel, and they will never let go of that, irrespective of the squabbling that happens under certain circumstances in the occupied territories. The last thing I want to say is that all Palestinians have a sense of what it is that makes them a people, and part of what makes them a people is their commitment to justice, because they realise that the conflict that they are part of was produced by and is sustained by a monumental act of injustice, and what makes Palestinians resist the occupation is their awareness that the occupation is unjust. What makes them want to go back home is the awareness that they have, that they share, that to be forced from their home is unjust. My mother was born in Jerusalem, and the squabbling between Fatah and Hamas, and the corruption in the PA will never remove the fact that she has a right to go back to Jerusalem, the city in which she was born, and like my mother, so with millions of others in exile - I think that's a very important point - that over-rides and overshadows all of the corruption and all of the squabbling, the sense of a community, the sense of a commitment to a cause.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Saree Makdisi, thank you very much. Where is this sense of unity, where is this sense of justice when you see the flagrant abuse of justice and human rights taking place in the Palestinian territories every day, and what use is it among the diaspora when it's not applied to those people who are in the place where you hope one day to have a sovereign Palestinian state?
SAREE MAKDISI
Well, there's two questions there. The question of a sovereign state we should remove, we can come back to that in a moment, but I think the more important point is that the corruption of the administration has nothing to do with the way the people are living their lives. People want to get to their jobs, they want to get to their farms, they want to get to their school and so forth.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why don't they? If they can't live in justice, if people are murdering and they're not brought to justice, you don't think that concerns their daily life?

SAREE MAKDISI
It concerns their daily life.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Of course it does.
SAREE MAKDISI
No, but the point is, they're not party to it, and they suffer from it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They're living in a state where this is inflicted on them.
SAREE MAKDISI
They're not living in a state, that's the whole point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
They're living in a place then.
SAREE MAKDISI
They're living in a place that's been taken out from under their feet literally.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where they're subject to flagrant abuse by their own people.
SAREE MAKDISI
They're subject to flagrant abuse by their people and above all by the occupation, that's the most important thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You talk about justice. Can I just remind you - you talk about justice - the International Committee of Jurists who visited the occupied territories recently, said that separate legal systems in the occupied territories now risk becoming a reality because of the squabbling between Fatah and Hamas, and if this were to occur, it would endanger the rights of Palestinians and seriously impede the emergence of a democratic, viable and independent Palestinian state, and you're saying this is not of relevance to the people living there? It's of daily relevance to them.
SAREE MAKDISI
No, I'm saying there are two different administrative systems, legal systems in the occupied territories. One system applies to Israeli settlers, and another much harsher system...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're talking about Hamas and Fatah trying to set up different justice systems, that's what the ICJ is talking about.
SAREE MAKDISI
What over-rides all of that is the Israeli administration of 'injustice', not justice.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why does it over-ride it? You don't think people who inflict this kind of misery on their own people are at risk of becoming the Palestinians' own worst enemy?

SAREE MAKDISI
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Not even at risk of it?
SAREE MAKDISI
Because the Palestinians aren't those 6,000 people. Palestinians are 10 or 11 million people, so if we're talking about the people...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But they're the key people because that's where, if you want to have a state, that's where you're going to have it.
SAREE MAKDISI
That brings me to the last point I want to make on this issue, which is the fact that Palestinians I think are increasingly moving towards an awareness of the fact that creating a separate state will not address the justice that they seek. What will address the justice that they seek is to live as equal citizens in a state that allows those in exile to come back if they so choose, that gives full rights, not partial rights, to the Palestinian citizens of the state of Israel, and it will obviously relieve those living under occupation, because the occupation will go away.

AUDIENCE Q (M)
A question for all the panel. It may sound a utopian and totally unreal question, but if the European Union offered both Palestine, a new Palestinian state, and the State of Israel a membership, do you think it might actually remove the risk of the Palestinians becoming their own worst enemies, because of course they would have to abide by the rules and the criteria of democracy and human rights in the European Union, so could it possibly work?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker.
AKRAM BAKER
I accept. I accept to become part of the European Union.
HIND KHOURY
Well, the proposition brings hope, and I think we don't even need to be members of the EU. If tomorrow Israel provides us with a state and provides a decent and just solution to the refugee question, I'm sure we will not have disagreements among one another. The whole, the majority of Palestinians would say, 'Yes, we want a state, we want sovereignty, we want liberty,' and that will be it.  But Israel is the decision-maker and it holds the power of the occupier. Remember, Israel has destroyed our institutions. We had no control over the security situation…
TIM SEBASTIAN
And Palestinian leaders have no responsibility for what's going on in the Palestinian territories.
HIND KHOURY
No, no, we have…
TIM SEBASTIAN
You remove the responsibility from the Palestinians.
HIND KHOURY…but our responsibility, and we worked, we delivered partly on the responsibility, better than many other countries actually.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Really?
HIND KHOURY
And we do have a Ministry of Finance audited by international auditors and acknowledged by the World Bank and the IMF, as very credible institutions, oh yes, we do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And you have endemic corruption.
SAREE MAKDISI
No, but to answer the question, the question is, if a Palestinian state were created tomorrow, that would still leave millions of people in exile, that would still leave a million Palestinian citizens in the state of Israel living as second-class or third-class citizens. The creation of a Palestinian state doesn't solve the major dilemma facing the Palestinians, which is the injustice they've faced for sixty years.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Munther Dajani, you want to say something?
MUNTHER DAJANI
Yes, actually if we create a state, the Palestinians will have to go back to the Palestinian state and not to Israel. We have a problem because the Palestinian leadership never told the Palestinians that once we recognised the state of Israel in 1994, that people will not be able to go back to Israel, they'll come back to a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
SAREE MAKDISI
Munther, that is not for you or anybody else to…
MUNTHER DAJANI
We have the problem with Israel, because we cannot deal with Israel creating a Palestinian state while they keep talking about Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem as part of Israel. So both leaderships - instead of leading - and leaders, lead and they actually give bitter pills to people when there are solutions. The problem is, neither leadership told the people what to expect at the end of the tunnel, and both lied to their people, and this is a very serious problem when you stop engaging your grass-root level people.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. I'm going to take a question in the third row there please, you sir.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Well, you talk about conspiracies and nepotism in the Palestinian government, but don't you think these conspiracies are basically initiated by the same people who fuelled and funded the Zionist movement after the Second World War?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Munther Dajani.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Actually it takes two to tango. If we didn't have people who were corrupt, who were actually amicable for corruption, we won't have corruption. It takes a guy to open his hand for the corruption to take place. It takes a guy to accept the corruption. There are a lot of people in the Palestinian National Authority who refuse to be corrupt, and they are the people who survived all the politics of corruption, and they are the ones now who are coming from the second stage to the third stage, they are becoming the front runners, and everybody knows them, and everybody is recommending that we reform, and when we talk about reform, we are talking about bringing the people who are back-stage to the front stage, so they can actually take over.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Did you want to say something briefly on this?
SAREE MAKDISI
I want to say something quickly which is that just to put this on the record also, all of this discussion about the Palestinian authority neglects, we have to bear in mind, that the PA was created during the Oslo Accords not as the foundation for an independent Palestinian state, but rather as an administrator for the Israelis to maintain their occupation into the future, which is exactly what has happened since 1993 and 1995 when the PA was created, right? The occupation never stopped.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker.
AKRAM BAKER
Saree, the PA, you're right about that, but the fact is that the PA was created so that the PLO, and the PLO, to go back also to your question, is that they survived under horrible bombardment in Beirut in 1982. The Palestinian national movement has always survived. We are now at the cusp of true collapse and not only because of the Israeli crackdown and the death and destruction riven by the Israeli occupation which is the foremost reason for all of this, but the fact is that the PA should be dissolved.
SAREE MAKDISI
I agree.
AKRAM BAKER
It should be dissolved today, not tomorrow.
SAREE MAKDISI
I agree.
AKRAM BAKER
Because it has no use, it has completely usurped our strength and our aspirations, and the PLO is now close to be being a defunct organisation.
SAREE MAKDISI
I agree.
TIM SEBASTIAN
An unusual level of agreement across the divide, but not from you, Hind?
HIND KHOURY
Yes, but you don't cancel the PA and you don't find an alternative. Please tell me what is the alternative plan? I mean, who's going to provide education and health, who's going to provide services?
AKRAM BAKER
But authority over what? Hind, what kind of authority? Abu Mazan cannot go buy a falafel in Ramallah unless he has authorisation from the Israelis. I lived there.
HIND KHOURY
We are under occupation, we have no illusions. The Palestinian Authority is not a state and we have no sovereignty, but for God's sake, we're trying to build sovereignty, we're trying to get a life that is dignified and that is independent.
AKRAM BAKER
Not through the PA, not through the PA.
HIND KHOURY
Listen, well, we need institutions anyway, we need a PA because you need to develop anyway institutions. Before Oslo we had our civil society. We need the skills to manage our education and health, and we continue to do that. It's always an asset, even if the PA disappears, there are always skills and people who need. .
TIM SEBASTIAN
You seem to disagree on this side of the fence about the work of the PA.
SAREE MAKDISI
What Palestinians need is a genuine government. They need to be able to participate in a genuine government, not to have this sixth-class administration that runs the occupation for them basically on behalf of the Israelis, which is exactly what the PA was created to do. That's why all the squabbling within the PA has to be understood as part of a larger struggle which is against the occupation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, I'm going to move on because this conversation will be endless. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman right at the top, please, you've got your hand up. You sir,  we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Good evening. My question is for Dr. Dajani. Doctor, you emphasised the fact that you believe that what we've reached, the situation that we've reached until now, because of corruption and irresponsibility during the period of the PA regime. My question: don't you think that Palestinians are punished because they chose a democratic path, plus Palestinian Authority officials, not all of them, found the internal conflict an opportunity to cover themselves or run away from the internal corruption scandals taking place among some of the top PLO members?
MUNTHER DAJANI
I agree with you. Some of them fled, some of them are still there and they are not happy with the six zeros they have and they are trying to add one or two more, and the problem is, we were never able to transform ourselves from revolutionary to statehood. In nation state building, you have to transform yourself into a nation state. The way they will study transformation is, you start by building institutions. Institutions have rules and regulations. When you have rules and regulations, you will not allow for corruption, because there is accountability. You have courts, you send people who are corrupt to courts. We do all over the world - people go to courts and go to prison, while our corrupt officials get actually rewarded with positions…
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I think the questioner wants to come back on that. Please come back on that, if you've got something else to say.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes. Basically you answered one part of the question, but also don't you think that Palestinians are punished because they have chosen a democratic path, because they elected Hamas, they are punished because they've reached the situation and they chose those people.
AKRAM BAKER
Can I answer this?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, Akram Baker.
AKRAM BAKER
After the elections, I sat for months defending Hamas publicly, saying that they have the right to govern, they won the elections fair and square. However, they have squandered their right to lead by lifting arms against their fellow Palestinians in Gaza; they have forfeited their right to leadership by slaughtering hundreds of people in Gaza. It is unacceptable and they have corrupted. They have - just as Fatah has been running into the arms of the United States and Israel for the past six, seven years, eight years - Hamas has run into the arms of Iran in the exact same way, and I do not accept any of that from either side.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hind Khoury, you wanted to say something.
HIND KHOURY
Now, this is a very simplified argument, I mean, and first I want to comment on corruption, and you can't speak of the Palestinian authority and all leadership like they're all corrupt. There were cases of corruption but truly people work to build institutions, it's not easy  under occupation you. . They don't only… they have destroyed our institutions, they have bombarded buildings, they have destroyed the computers literally, and all these difficulties, economic difficulties, have sent, have caused us a brain drain. Our young people, professionals, have left the institutions, so please let's look at the wider picture. It's much more complicated than pure corruption.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker, I'll come back to you.
SAREE MAKDISI
Again, in talking about the PA, it's not a textbook case that you have to create institutions and so forth. A government doesn't just have institutions, a government also has territory to rule, otherwise it's not really a government, right? The territory that the PA ruled was, as you know, 18 percent of the West Bank in bits and pieces. That's not a country. You can call it whatever you want, it's not a country, it'll never be a country, that's the point.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the third row there, with the red tie.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you. A question to Hind Khoury. You said the Palestinians are united against Israeli occupation, but we allknow how dire the situation in Gaza is right now, with reports suggesting that the living standards are the worst in over 40 years. Then how do you explain the presence of luxurious villas in Gaza that belong to PA members? Does the resident of Gaza who struggles for food every day and well-off PA member really do share a common enemy?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can I ask where you're from?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I'm Palestinian.
HIND KHOURY
Listen, Palestine is not exactly the third world. Believe me, there are many families who worked abroad and have been very successful. They brought back their capital to invest in their own country. Cities have been built that way, in the West Bank as well as in Gaza. I mean, this is not necessarily corruption money. There are cases, I don't deny it, and the corruption has been disclosed by the legislative council in 1998, and they have asked that there are investigations to be done and to stop the corruption. So you know, Palestine is not about…truly we have refugee camps and people live under very, very difficult conditions, but people also wanted to hold on to refugee camps, they held on to their keys, because they want to hold on to their right of return out of principal, even when family members left the camp to build a house and a decent villa outside of the camp, some family members left, stayed behind in the camp to make it a point and to hold on to their rights, so really this is not exactly the third world, even now we're poor because of this.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let Professor Dajani come back and then I want to come back to you.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Let me just ask you one question, how many people went to prison because of corruption, how many people were put on trial because of corruption? By the way, we cannot keep blaming others for our problems. Israelis are occupying us, we are occupied, they have draconian measures which they inflict on us every day, but this does not give a green light for people to indulge in corruption. See, this is a very serious problem.
HIND KHOURY
We don't control the territories, it's Israel that controls the territories.
MUNTHER DAJANI
How is that related to corruption? People taking commissions, people who are coming to invest in the Palestinian territories, the officials are becoming their partners. How is that related to occupation?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to hear the view of the questioner. He's heard quite a bit from both sides, I want to hear what he thinks now.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, first of all I wasn't talking about Palestinians who made money abroad and came back and built a nice house or something. I'm talking about… what I'm saying is based on a BBC World report which showed all these beautiful houses built by PA members from corruption money obviously, and what I want to say is that if I was a resident of Gaza and I didn't have enough money to feed my family, and if I looked at this PA member who's really well off and the occupation seems not to affect him at all, who sends his children abroad to study, who has all the money he needs, all the means of living that he needs, then I would consider him to be my enemy. At the same time if I was a PA member and I was attacked by some Hamas militias or something like that, I'd also consider them to be my enemy, so you can't make it so simple. You can't just say that because the Palestinians are under occupation, the common enemy is Israel. That's not how it works out.
HIND KHOURY
No, and these are, as Saree said, the minority, a very small minority of people who were in government and who are corrupt, I'm not denying that, but it is such a small minority. There are still people who are responsible people, there are people who are patriotic. We're human too. We see our fellow brothers and sisters and families and neighbours suffering. We do react to that and we do care that they have a better life and they deserve a better life. It's not fair to describe all Palestinians as corrupt.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. I'm going to move on to a question in the fourth row, lady with your hand up. Yes, you. Thank you very much.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
This question is to the 'against'. If there is such a sense of nationality and pride, then why are [not audible] allowed by the Palestinians to represent the Palestinians?
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
OK. If there is such a sense of nationality and pride then why [not audible] corrupt allowed by the Palestinians to represent the Palestinians?
SAREE MAKDISI
The question is, as far as I'm concerned, the question is, who participated in the election that led to the election of this authority? I mean, the Palestinians living in exile were never consulted as to who they want to have representing them in the PA. That's a very important point. Most Palestinians had nothing to do with these elections.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Should they have been consulted?
SAREE MAKDISI
Yes, of course. .
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why?
SAREE MAKDISI
If there's going to be something called the Palestinian state, of course they should have been. It's a state that should represent the entire people. The point is that the PA was never intended as a state or as the beginning of a state because the land was never given back to them. The idea you can have a state that sort of floats in outer space without a land corresponding to it is just crazy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, the gentleman in the third row, you have your hand up. We'll get a microphone to you. Is there a microphone making its way? Thank you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question goes out to the opposition. Don't you think that if Palestine gained its independence today, then they are at risk of a civil war between each other for  power struggle - Hamas and Fatah or any other groups that might be involved? I mean, seriously, how are we ever going to have any weight at peace negotiations with Israel when we are demanding of things and doing the exact opposite in real life?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You say 'we'. Are you a Palestinian?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
No sir, I'm Syrian.
SAREE MAKDISI
I tried to say this a little bit in my introductory comments. The point is that the demand for a state will not solve the Palestinians' problems. The Palestinians' problems began with dispossession in 1948. The problem will only end when that dispossession has ended. That's the point. Creating a fake state with no territory corresponding to it will not address the prime mover of the Palestinian cause, which is the injustice that was inflicted in 1948 and reiterated in 1967.
AKRAM BAKER
That's right, so why don't we get rid of the fake government?
SAREE MAKDISI
I'm all in favour of getting rid of it but the point is the government isn't the people, that's the point.
AKRAM BAKER
Because it is a fake government.
HIND KHOURY
Well, let's look at the cause. I mean, let's look at the cause at least in the occupied territories and East Jerusalem that says that Palestinians are ready to accept a state, even under very dire circumstances, up to 70, 80 percent of the population, so I think if we do have a state and we have independence. . Can you imagine me? - I live there. If tomorrow the occupation were to go away and the wall was to be destroyed and there would be no check-points, I'm sure, I mean, you know, we will be building, we already have institutions, an active civil society. .
TIM SEBASTIAN
Suddenly everybody would be honest, would they?
HIND KHOURY
No, listen, I'm not saying it's going to be an ideal world. There will be [a] struggle for power like there is in the rest of the world, we're also normal, but there are also. . Civil society has always been active. We do have institutions, we do have capacity, we will put an act together and already actually there was a lot of work that was done on the rule of law lately and institutions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, let me ask the questioner what he thinks. Do you want to come back on that?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes. What I'm trying to say is basically, the problem is within the Palestinian population in itself, the education of the people and in terms of how they should approach politics, because as we're… unfortunately double standards [are] very common, especially in our government and in our politics, so really if we do not eliminate that issue first, then how are we ever going to achieve anything else?
AKRAM BAKER
Can I just say one very short comment is that the Israeli occupation of Palestine is wrong, it is the enemy and if they would end it tomorrow, I would be very happy, then we would take care of ourselves. Somehow we would find a way, but there's no-one to say, 'Well, I'm sorry, we can't end the. . The occupation is good for us because we're not ready. The occupation is wrong, it is immoral, it is illegal, it should be ended immediately, and when that happens, then all of us will go back to Palestine and we will do everything we can to…
TIM SEBASTIAN
I want to move on actually and I just want to remind everybody of the motion: This House believes that Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemy. Gentleman in the fourth row there please. You've had your hand up for a long time.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is to the proposition. I'd just like to put a small question. Obviously we've seen that corruption is usually most abundant in states that have very bad economic levels and a lot of poverty, so my question is, how can you expect a government to be completely corruption-free when it has been inflicted with massive poverty and a great deal of, like, oppression from the Israeli government? I mean, we've had the sanctions by the quartet and other measures where the Israelis are causing the poverty in Palestine, and in such poverty how can you expect corruption not to happen?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, Munther Dajani, you're the only person in the panel who actually lives there, so why don't you tell us?
MUNTHER DAJANI
Actually this is very important, because [of] the leaders' failure to engage the Palestinian people into a dialogue and in order to have a common language, in order to have a common vision, in order not to have a civil war. For people to be united, you have to engage them, you have to talk to them, you have to inform them about what is happening. He just said and acknowledged that he lives overseas and he was not consulted about what is happening on our side. This is a very serious problem. If you speak about a democratic state, part of a democracy is to open a dialogue with the people, to have consensus among the people, to form a common language with them, to have the same vision. We actually now have problems with our vision for a Palestinian state.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let the questioner come back for a moment.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But the truth is, how are you going to have dialogue with your own people when you can't even give them water, when you can't even give them food?
HIND KHOURY
When people can't even meet. I mean, I can't go to the next town or the next village.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Professor, answer that question, will you please.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Actually these measures will all end once the occupation ends, but we have to work in order to end the occupation. The occupation has to end, we agree on that. We, nobody in Palestine does not have the vision and share the value of ending the occupation and establishing a Palestinian state in Gaza, West Bank and Jerusalem. The problem is, you have to work towards that goal. As a people, we have failed to work to that goal. Our special interest groups took us over rather than our public good.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, I just want to bring in Saree Makdisi here.
SAREE MAKDISI
Again, it's the same point. Munther, a government doesn't sort of come into being and then talk to the people. In a democratic system, the people are the government, they create the government, the government is theirs. It's not like there's a government, a group of people that talk to people and say, 'This is what we should do, this is what you shouldn't do,' so that's the first very important point. The second point which builds on that is that what that means is that the leadership we have…has betrayed…
MUNTHER DAJANI
You are forgetting, we had elections, we had elections.
SAREE MAKDISI
You had elections.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Of course we had elections, we had democracy. The problem was that once they got elected, they isolated themselves from the people and stopped engaging the people. After you elect somebody, part of your problem is that you have to go back and see how your constituency wants you to behave. You don't isolate yourself and end up in the leadership position of being…
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let Saree Makdisi go.
SAREE MAKDISI
How can you talk about a constituency when the majority of the people aren't even part of the democratic process? That's not a constituency. You're talking as though Palestine exists as a country and as a funny corrupt regime that's mishandling funds or whatever. It doesn't exist as a country, there isn't the land to which that government is attached.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Look, you can't ignore the fact that Palestinians exist on Palestinian soil.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Don't all speak at once.
MUNTHER DAJANI
You are reminding me of Golda Meir who said that there are no Palestinians. This is a very serious problem. You are trying to masterpiece Golda Meir who said there are no Palestinians, there were never Palestinians…
AKRAM BAKER
I'm going to have to interject here, I don't agree with that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hind Khoury, please, Hind Khoury.
HIND KHOURY
We are on the ground, we practise democracy and we make elections and the West decided to sanction those who won the elections. It's not as simple as that. I also acknowledge what you have said, Akram, but I mean, let's face it, let's face it. The Palestinians have practised democracy and they know how to, but just the same we need to renew leadership in structures like the PLO for example. We need in some parties also renewed leadership. We have failed, we have to do it. We expected to have a state in 1999. That didn't happen because Israel speaks of peace and acts of war, and they still do that today.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Akram Baker has got a word to say, OK.
AKRAM BAKER
I want to put this into a nutshell. First of all, Saree and Hind and my cousins in Virginia are just as Palestinian as you and me and anybody living in the refugee camps. We are all one people and no-one's going to succeed in dividing us. Second of all, to address your question…
TIM SEBASTIAN
I thought your point was how divided they are, Fatah and Hamas are divided.
AKRAM BAKER
No, no. The problem we're talking about, this motion of we are at risk of becoming our own worst enemy - and I say this because the Palestinian leadership has… they've failed to inspire and to animate and to bring people along regardless of what Israel does. Israel's oppression and the war in 1982, that didn't put any cracks in the Palestinian…
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, we're going to move on. I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row there please, you sir, yes. Thank you very much. We have a microphone for you somewhere? Yes, one is coming down.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, my question is for Mr. Akram. Many of the points that you've made seem to be very strong points, but I don't see you substantiating them with any historical parallels because in order for me to understand your point as something objective, you have to give it a historical context. Thank you.
AKRAM BAKER
The historical context - I'll give you two very short ones if I may.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please, please.
AKRAM BAKER
One is South Africa and one is Vietnam. In South Africa, Nelson Mandela, when he came out of prison, the first thing he said was, "I support the right to armed struggle," the day he walked out of that jail. He was voted president and what did he do? He immediately handed it over to technocrats who knew how to build the society and to build the institutions. He didn't grab on and hold on to the power and now he's a wonderful statesman. Yasser Arafat, God rest his soul, did not do that. That's the first one. The second one is the Vietnamese. They fought off France and the United States for 30 years, they had one focus - end the war, end the occupation of our country. Ho Chi Minh lived on rice just like everybody else, and guess what happened? They succeeded.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, I'm going to go to a lady in the second row please. Sorry, the lady next to you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
OK, good evening. As we know, America considers itself the sponsor of applying democracy in the Middle East, so when they forced the Palestinian people to elect a democratic government and they voted for Hamas, unfortunately we know Hamas is not in the American mood, so USA and Israel supported Fatah…
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can we move to a question, please?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
OK, my question, why does the USA only support the democracy which pushes…
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's not really the issue we're discussing here tonight.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, because the root of the problem, why Fatah and Hamas become enemies, why? Because of America and Israel, this is obvious.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, but America just supports the democracy which it wanted.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK.
HIND KHOURY
When the PA was sanctioned more than a year ago, 80% of employees in government who were not paid salaries for a whole year were from Fatah. When they have destroyed institutions, police stations and ministries and destroyed computers and files, these were managed by Fatah and established by Fatah, so let's not have it, you know, incorrect, when security people have been shot at and assassinated, they were Fatah people, so the real sanctioning I think was for Fatah mainly.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, thank you. We're going to move on to a question in the second row. You sir, thank you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
This is for Mr. Makdisi. You touched on the topic of the Palestinian diaspora. I mean, since they are the most influential at solving this problem, how do they factor in being their own enemies?
SAREE MAKDISI
Well, as I said, I think all Palestinians share the sense of what it is that they want as a people, and what they want is their rights to be fulfilled, and I think what it takes for their rights to be fulfilled would be the ability of Palestinians living presently in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem no longer to suffer under the military occupation that they've lived with for 40 years. It would allow the Palestinians living in exile to return home if they so choose, and it would allow those who are citizens of the state of Israel to actually have full-fledged citizenship of a government that genuinely represents them, so the movement is one that ties all these people together, that's inside and outside.
MUNTHER DAJANI
By the way, in 1968/69, Fatah, in its charter, actually it called for a secular state in all of historical Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. Lady in the fifth row, your question please. Sorry, no, the one in front of you, the lady in the front of you. Thank you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I have a question for those that are for the motion. Don't you think that the neighbouring Arab countries should interfere in the conflict to avoid this auto-destruction, hence to avoid Palestine become their own worst enemy?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker.
AKRAM BAKER
Neighbouring countries, you mean Jordan and Egypt?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Lebanon, for example. . Syria.
AKRAM BAKER
I mean, I think Lebanon's got to take care of its own problems. Jordan, I mean, we all hope that Jordan and Egypt would play a positive role in Palestine but I see neither Jordan nor Egypt as models of a democratic society or democratic government which I hope that independent Palestine will become. So if we're going to sit and wait for Arab unity, then we're all going to get old and die before that ever happens. No, unfortunately. I wish they would play a more positive role.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Actually you are right. We have to look for our strategic depth. It is actually in Jordan and in Egypt and the neighbouring countries. We have to be helped by them and they actually are interfering on our behalf, especially Egypt during the last crisis…Jordan…and there are very good relations with both of them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Your question seemed to suggest that you think that Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemies, is that right?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You do, OK.
HIND KHOURY
I just want to say something - that Palestinians are confused because we really have no political project. Most Palestinians including Fatah and the PLO wanted to establish this Palestinian state on the occupied territories in 1967. Unfortunately, Israel every day even after Annapolis and this engagement of the whole international community - to see that a state is established in 2008 or at least an accord is signed - Israel has continued with tremendous colonisation the last three months, so Israel in fact is making a state totally an illusion, and we don't have an alternative.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, OK. We're going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row, please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
My question is for the opposition. The reason given several times over and over this evening for defending your position was that it's very difficult to build proper efficient and transparent institutions against these current odds and the situation. My question is, don't you think that you have an example that contradicts your points sitting right across the border from you, which is Israel. They at some point only half a century ago were considered to have almost nothing, no state, and were building institutions against impossible odds and now they've managed it and turned the tables on it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Saree Makdisi.
SAREE MAKDISI
Well, I mean, again the point is, this discussion is not about… the question we're debating is not about the PA or the Palestinian government. We were talking about the Palestinian people, not a government, and part of what's happened since 1948 as you know is that most Palestinians no longer live on the land to which they want to return, so the point is to be able to reconnect the people with the land, the people with each other. That's what this is ultimately all about.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker.
AKRAM BAKER
Sorry, I'm sorry. I mean, when you say the donor communities, you don't mean my colleagues who work with me in Berlin, you mean the government, so when we talk about the Palestinians, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about the Palestinian leadership, so you can't just say, you know, 'I can't speak for six million people,' - but I can speak for their leaders and that is who we're talking about.
SAREE MAKDISI
No but there's a difference between Germany which is a real country with a real territory and it's a proper state, and this dispersion of people that doesn't have a state representing them.
AKRAM BAKER
But I'm talking about the representatives of these six million people. I can't get six million people's opinion.
HIND KHOURY
Yes, but we must remember, when Israel was established, it was all these, you know, intellectuals of the West who came and who knew how to build institutions. Unfortunately we are in the Third World and we're learning.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let's hear from the questioner, if you could stand up please.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I can't believe that that was your response. You're basically saying that, OK, let's wait until we're given a state and then we can sit down and talk about this again. Is that your answer? Do you want people to hand you over a state instead of you going and actively building one?
SAREE MAKDISI
No, but you're talking about building institutions. [Applause]. Hang on. This is a very important point, you don't build institutions in the sky, you build them on land. States don't exist in textbook form. States exist in connection to territory, so the whole idea that you can have a Palestinian government that's being held accountable for all kinds of wrong-doings, that doesn't control a territory, is delusional, that's not a state. You can't compare that state to the Federal Republic of Germany.
MUNTHER DAJANI
What he's telling you is the first Zionist convention took place in Basel, Switzerland, and when they started the current [not audible] and all these institutions, the Jewish Agency, they were not even in Palestine, they were overseas. They were able to form institutions, they came, they fought, they established. We should be able to fight for our state. Actually it's not only it should be given to us, we should take it from the mouths of the lion, because nobody's going to hand anything for you. What you have to do is, you grab it and you will take it, if you have the will to do it, but if you sit back and say, 'Well, I'll wait until they give me the land and I will wait until I build a state,' this is not the logic. If people fight for their rights, they achieve them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let Hind Khoury say something.
HIND KHOURY
Yes. All the efforts, all the prices paid by Palestinians to free Palestine, to establish a state, it was a very high price. We paid with our blood, we paid with the life of our young ones. We paid, people paid by their own health, they became handicapped. This is not fair. You know, what we… you know, we have really established a good civil society, we have established institutions that work, but we don't have control over the environment. We build something one day, it gets destroyed the next day.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, all right, OK.
HIND KHOURY
I mean, you know, if we don't have power, you can't continue with your project.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to ask a question from the lady in the fourth row.
HIND KHOURY
You have to know the story from the inside.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you, thank you. OK. We have to move on. You, the lady in the fourth row there.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
My question is for Professor Dajani and Mr. Baker. It's tri-fold. If the way to a Palestinian state is through transparent institutions but you can't achieve that because of the corruption, how do you end the corruption, and Professor Dajani, by your own admission, you quit because of the corruption, if. . If you are, assuming you are able to form these transparent institutions, how do they stay solvent in the face of the occupation, for instance the recent developments in Gaza, how did the hospitals get any of their supplies with the blockade?
MUNTHER DAJANI
Very easy - accountability. There is nothing wrong with putting people on trial for doing the right thing. This is an international language. There [is] consensus. Even Prime Ministers lose their jobs. If President Nixon lost his job because he committed unacceptable acts or he broke the law, why not in the Palestinian case we have accountability? There is nothing wrong with putting people in jail, there is nothing wrong with putting them on trial. Why hide it?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Well, if you don't have the right leadership in place right now, how do you get the right leadership in place? How do you fight the corruption if the leadership that is in place right now is not doing it, do you dissolve the leadership and then how do you get new leaders in?
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's his recommendation.
MUNTHER DAJANI
Our next elections. Our next election which will take place very soon.
HIND KHOURY
Munther, we wouldn't have received seven billion dollars in aid if we were corrupt. This money comes with a system with auditing, international auditors, it comes against projects. There are reports being given on every little money that is spent.
MUNTHER DAJANI
This is very recent, this happened only in the last year. We are talking about the last fifteen years. You are taking it out of context. You are speaking about the Americans putting their foot down, putting Salaam Fayad in charge of the money and telling him, 'This is the way you operate. '
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sorry, can you please wait. We can't have everyone talking at once. Thank you.
HIND KHOURY
It was not a static situation. Corruption was disclosed by the PLC [Palestinian Legislative Council], Palestinians themselves, and there has been work on the ground, to fight corruption and to improve the systems, and this has been acknowledged by international institutions.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Akram Baker.
AKRAM BAKER
I think it's a very valid question, and to bring it back a little bit to what we were talking about, is that elections are entirely useless unless they're based and backed up by the rule of law and by civil society. The American government - Bush - pushed for elections simply because he thought that this would be good for his image, this is what they needed, and they were 'shocked' by the outcome, but the fact is that I think we need to re-evaluate the entire political paradigm. We need to find a new framework because we can elect, tomorrow we can make new elections, fair and free elections. Unless they're respected and unless they are built on a substance, then they're useless, so therefore I truly believe we need to dissolve the PA immediately, as soon as possible, and find a new way to build something new.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, lady in the second row, your question, please.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Hello, good evening. In this case having democracy in Palestine seems to be the biggest issue at the moment - who is the biggest enemy of Palestine: the Western powers who have financial interests in the Palestine and Israeli war, or democracy?
AKRAM BAKER
It's very simple, and I think everyone here will say this: the biggest enemy of Palestine is the Israeli occupation, first and foremost, there's no second place to that.
HIND KHOURY
We can't have democracy if there is a power that decides for us whether it accepts it, or it doesn't accept it, or it can create havoc or chaos amongst in our midst, so the practice of democracy requires independence and freedom to make the decisions and to implement the decisions - and this we don't have.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. Where do you stand on the issue? Who do you think risks becoming the Palestinians' worst enemy?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
I'm against the motion personally. And I would also like to draw the speakers' attention to the powers who are actually controlling Israel's actions. The Western powers are actually - they have their own interests in this war and it is very important to focus on that as well.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. We're going to take a question from the gentleman in the third row. Yes, you.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
This question unfortunately is focused on you, Madam, because three out of the four of the panel seem to recognise that there are issues with the leadership. I have been to Gaza, I've seen the squalor in which the vast majority of Gazans live, and I think it's far-fetched to say the least to belittle the effects of corruption and mismanagement on the part of the Palestinian Authority, and three out of four appear to acknowledge it. You don't, and perhaps it's because you didn't have to fend for yourself in Gaza. You can go to the boutiques of Paris and buy your very elegant outfits. This is not meant as a criticism, but what I think this motion does provide us with is a very important opportunity to take stock and do that which very few people want to do, which is face reality and recognise that there is the very grave danger, if it hasn't already been realised, of the leadership of the Palestinians - and this motion is directed towards the leadership of the Palestinians - actually becoming the Palestinians worst enemies.
HIND KHOURY
I didn't deny that there was corruption. It was, but it isn't the main problem. The main problem is that we have no independence to control our lives and take decisions to improve that life. We have a margin and now this government is delivering a lot on that margin. Why were people quite happy in 1999, why is it?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you want to come back on that?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Yes, I do. This is, I'm sorry, forgive me, Madam, this is nonsense. It's as patronising as suggesting that the Palestinians are too backward to understand what democracy is. People who suffered under communist oppression were able to enter the European Union after less than ten or fifteen years, and you're telling me that the Palestinian people, who produce some of the brightest intellects throughout the world, can't produce leaders? The simple fact is that we are in a situation where unlike the clear victims that they are, they have at the helm people who some might consider are more like rats running after little scraps of power as opposed to what they should be looking for which is the peace for their people.
HIND KHOURY
Listen, part of it is true, part of this is true, but there are leaders that, like Salaam Fayad and many others, who do the good job. And I don't go around only shopping in Paris, I've been there only for three years. I know what it is living in Jerusalem. I crossed the checkpoint every day for fifteen years to take my children to school and to come back, you know, and I've been to Gaza, I know what Gaza is like probably more than you do, so please, I know the misery that we live in, but there were periods when we were…
AKRAM BAKER
Can I come in here for a second? You're absolutely, you're right on a lot of your comments and I agree with you, but the fact is, I mean, I've known Hind for many years and she has been a dedicated fighter and…
HIND KHOURI
No, never mind the personal issue…
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Forgive me, this is not meant as a personal criticism. Face reality and deal with it.
HIND KHOURY
Listen, Palestine is not really the Third World.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK.
HIND KHOURY
We were able to have businesses, people worked in Israel when we were denied to have our own industry, they made money and they improved their lot under very difficult circumstances throughout forty years of occupation.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Hind Khoury, a final word on this from Saree Makdisi.
SAREE MAKDISI
Coming back to the same point, when we're talking about the corruption within the Palestinian Authority, you're not talking about a government that has a state to run. The Palestinian Authority doesn't even control the most basic aspects of the state: the population registry - that's under Israeli control. You're talking about a government that has no territory to govern, that has no access to the basic data that any normal government would have, that can't control its borders, its air space, its water, its taxation, that's all under somebody else's control.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK.
SAREE MAKDISI
So it's not a normal government.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, lady in the first row. Shall we get a microphone to you please?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
With all due respect to the panel of which four out of the…most of you here tonight, four out of the five are men, why have there been no women who have been brought into the election process or looked to as leadership since women traditionally have always had to fight the squabbles among their children and instead of pointing fingers, bringing women in, because when you talk about the Palestinian people, at least half of them are women.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, Akram Baker.
AKRAM BAKER
You're absolutely right, but let me just, just to make a point, is that in the first presidential elections, the opponent of Yasser Arafat was a woman. Unfortunately she didn't win, she was a great woman - Samiha Khalil. Are there not enough women in Palestine politics? Yes, absolutely.
HIND KHOURY
And women have been very active traditionally. I mean, they had to support families even since 1948, during the refuge and throughout the years of occupation when husbands are in prison, husbands are dead and killed, and children risk their lives whenever they go on the street. Women have played a major role. We do exist in the PLC, maybe we should have more. We have some women ministers, maybe we should have more but I think we are fine to start with.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Thank you. Question in the second row. Please, the lady in the second row. That's you.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
How big is your plasma TV because I don't think you have any right to speak on behalf of the Palestinians because you are from the minority, you know, because you're not making any sense, you're not reasonable.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why do you say that? Where do you come from?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Because… I'm from Palestine.
TIM SEBASTIAN
And why do you say it's not making any sense?
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Because she's not living in Palestine, she's in France, and just saying some…
HIND KHOURY
Well, I'm sorry. I have been there for three years and I'm an ambassador  to Palestine in France so I actually spend the whole day…
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, but your ideas are…
TIM SEBASTIAN
Do you have any constructive questions to ask?
HIND KHOURY
Listen, I certainly lived more than you do, in my fifty-five years I've lived 53 in Palestine so I know exactly what I'm talking about.
AUDIENCE Q (F)
Yes, but you're not, it's not how Palestinians are living in Palestine, you're not saying the truth, you're not being logical or reasonable.
SAREE MAKDISI
It's very important to bear in mind most Palestinians don't live in Palestine. That doesn't make them any less Palestinian, I mean, that's the whole point. There would not be a Palestinian struggle if all Palestinians were living in Palestine, this wouldn't be an issue. There wouldn't be a debate about the right of return for example, we wouldn't be talking about these things.
HIND KHOURY
I'm curious how would a Palestinian react? I mean, you know, we… being Palestinian living in Palestine, meaning living through your land being stolen every other day, crossing checkpoints and you have no freedom to move, when your business is being strangled, when your children can't go to school on a regular basis, when you know sometimes you can go to hospital, when a farmer has to go, pass a gate and get the permit to go to work his land, that's being a Palestinian.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. I'm going to move on to a questioner in the third row. You sir, yes.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
Thank you. This question is for Madam Ambassador, Madam Minister. I'm going to quote a famous revolutionary, Cuban revolutionary, well, a man who inspired the Cuban revolution.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You are going to ask a question as well, are you?
AUDIENCE Q (M)
I will, I will, and it's a controversial one so… He said a people that live under a dictatorship or bad government deserve it, and he said it means they're not mature politically. You've said that there's a sense of cohesion in the people, though I disagree because we saw that there wasn't just Fatah militia, there were people with guns firing at each other and at kids. So do you think - and taking experience from my, I mean, my country, Algeria, that went through a revolution and fought the French for many years and quite similar to your cause - I mean, how legitimate do you think is a movement that cannot stay united? How viable is this noble cause that we keep talking about if it's not even able to get its act together and stop looking like chickens with their heads cut off, and you know, they fight, they bicker, and they have nothing to show at the end of the day.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK, let's ask Hind Khoury to answer that.
HIND KHOURY
Yes, I agree that the image of this inside fighting is shameful, is unacceptable, but this is not just a noble cause. This is people, you know, four million people living under occupation who seek a life, a decent life, a life with some dignity and some freedom. It's very simple and it's very right. It's also six other million people who seek to be home and just to be able to visit their parents, if necessary to live there, so the Palestinians is not just about the bickering between Fatah and Hamas. It's a national movement, I agree. I think we're at the lower end of the national movement. There hasn't been renovation within the PLO, within some of the parties like Fatah for fifteen years now, since Oslo was signed, and that's very unhealthy, and this is the price we're paying today.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you happy with that answer?
HIND KHOURY
This has got to be corrected. We need to have elections, we need to give young people the chance to be part of the decision-making.
AUDIENCE Q (M)
But with all due respect, every national movement that's ever existed on the planet has had elites that drove it, and with all due respect to the people that were saying that she shops in Paris, this is a debate about representation and it's not the case. But the elites that you all represent have not given any programme, any solid programme. Arafat goes to Camp David, OK, he's given bad solutions, but he has no programme when he goes there, and it's the same case with Salaam Fayad, it's the same thing with Mahmoud Abbas, and it will continue forever unless people get their acts together, and you have no solid programme.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Saree Makdisi, I want you to come in on this piece.
SAREE MAKDISI
Again, the point is, we should, for all the criticisms you're making of the Palestinian leadership leadership, and I agree with them, and I agree with everything that's been said about the leadership in general here - the point is the Palestinians are not their leaderships, and when we're talking about the Palestinians risking becoming their own worst enemies, you can't say this squabbling bunch of leaders is the Palestinian people, because they're not. They're a bunch of leaders, the people are a totally different thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
OK. Akram Baker, very briefly because we're running out of time here.
AKRAM BAKER
I really don't think the Algerians deserved another 120,000 martyrs in the 90s.
MUNTHER DAJANI
One million.
AKRAM BAKER
I mean, you had your million during France and then what happened in the 90s, I don't think Algeria deserved that, do you? [Applause]

TIM SEBASTIAN
All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we've come to the point in the proceedings where we're going to vote on the motion, that 'This House believes that the Palestinians risk becoming their own worst enemy. '  If you want to vote for the motion, that is the side represented by Akram Baker and Munther Dajani, would you please press button 'one', the yellow one on your voting machines. If you want to vote against the motion, that is the side represented by Hind Khoury and Saree Makdisi, would you please press button 'two', the red one, and would you do that now. You only have to press once because through the wonders of modern science your vote will be transmitted automatically to the computers, and we should have the results in about 45 seconds' time. Just a reminder, as you heard earlier, this debate is going to be broadcast on BBC World on 12th I think, 12th and 13th of this month. The exact times and dates are in your information pack, so do please follow along. And please let us have your observations, comments and suggestions. We're always very glad to hear from you via our website or in person. There are the results coming up on the screen. The motion, 70.9% for the motion, 29.1% against: the motion has been resoundingly carried. It just remains for me to thank very much our distinguished panel who've come a long way to be here and a lot of effort to be here, thank you very much indeed. And thanks to you, the audience. The Doha Debates will be back again in a month's time. Till then, from all of us on the team, thanks for coming tonight, good night.