This House trusts Iran NOT to build a nuclear bomb

TIM SEBASTIAN
Ladies and gentlemen, a very good evening to you and welcome to the latest in our series of Doha Debates coming to you from the State of Qatar and sponsored by the Qatar Foundation.  Tonight we turn our attention to Iran with its coastline just over a hundred miles away from us across the warm waters of the Gulf.  Its proximity and its growing influence in this region mean that the current standoff over its nuclear intentions is being watched even more closely here than in the rest of the world.  This is where the consequences of any crisis will be felt first.  But just what are Iran's intentions?  Its leaders insist their nuclear programme is solely for peaceful purposes.  The West is highly sceptical.  Our debate tonight is therefore about trust, and our motion, 'This House trusts Iran NOT to build a nuclear bomb.'  Where do you stand on the issue?  Well, as ever our panellists sharply disagree.  Speaking for the motion, Mahjoob Zweiri, Professor of Middle East Politics and Iran at the University of Jordan.  He's worked both in the UK and Iran and did his doctorate in Modern History at Tehran University.  And with him Mohammad Marandi.  He's Head of the North American Studies Department at Tehran University.  He was actually born in the United States and has lectured there, and has written widely on US/Iranian relations.  Speaking against the motion, Baria Alamuddin who's a Lebanese journalist and broadcaster.  She's currently Foreign Editor of the newspaper Al Hayat and for the last five years, has headed the International Arab Charity.  And with her, Alireza Nourizadeh, Senior Researcher and Director of the Centre for Arab and Iranian Studies in London.  He was formerly Editor-in-Chief of a magazine in Iran, which was closed down on the orders of Ayatollah Khomeini himself.  Dr. Nourizadeh later fled to London after receiving death threats.  Ladies and gentlemen: our panel.   So now let me call first on Mahjoob Zweiri to speak for the motion.

MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
Thank you, Tim.  Through working on Iran the last ten years, I am convinced that Iran is not [going] to build a nuclear bomb for the following reasons.  Number one, reports by the IAEA stated that there is no evidence since 2003 confirming that Iran has developed any kind of nuclear weapon or capabilities.  Number two, the NIE report confirmed in 2007 that Iran has halted suspicious activities - and they put here two lines - suspicious activities 2003: it seems that this conclusion was accepted within the American decision-making circles... and consequently the US statements regarding the Iranian nuclear programme tended to focus more on peaceful capabilities than weapons production programmes since 2007.  Inaccurate intelligence has repeatedly confused this issue.  Israel reported several times that Iran was on the verge of developing a bomb only to push ‘Doomsday' forward.  This seems more a political tactic to keep Western pressure at a high level and to keep the media buzz going.  To me, Iran's focus seems to be more on the development of conventional weapons systems, especially missiles.  This trend has started at the end of 2002 and the Iranian military strategy began to change and it seems to me that Iran is more focused on missiles rather than unconventional weapons or building a nuclear bomb.  Iran is not capable of enriching uranium to a level necessary for a nuclear plant, as [is] apparent [from the] Russian offer to enrich uranium, which we heard about last two weeks.  The Iranians have 1500 tonnes of uranium which is enriched up to just 5.3.  To build a nuclear bomb, you need enriched uranium between 40 to 60, and Iran does not have this kind of uranium enriched.
TIM SEBASTIAN Please come to a ...close.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
The last point: Iran is not capable alone to build a nuclear bomb and the relationship with a country like Russia - which kind of supports Iran - is not in good shape, so I don't believe that Iran is to build a nuclear bomb.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mahjoob Zweiri, thank you very much indeed.   If the Iranian nuclear programme is solely for peaceful purposes, why hide the nuclear installation near the city of Qom?  Why not come out into the open and say what you've got... as they were required to do by law?
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
I think according to the memorandum signed by Iran and the Atomic Energy Agency in 2004, there were two sentences about the time of providing information about new ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, the Atomic Energy Agency has no doubt about what happened. 
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
No, no, no....
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't want to tell you... I want to tell you what Mohamad ElBaradei said about this.  He said: "This has been a setback to the principal of transparency, to the effort by the international community to build confidence about the Iranian nuclear programme, because Iran has been on the wrong side of the law for not informing the agency at an earlier date."  That's what he said, that's the position of the IAEA.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
But at the same time the statement also made by the spokesman of IAEA has stated that there is an argument about the time.  Iran says that the IAEA knows about it, the time to the IAEA is not enough, they are saying that ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
You could say there was an argument, but this is the official position of the UN's nuclear watchdog.  There's no doubt about what they feel.  They feel the principle of transparency and the attempt to build confidence has failed.  They've destroyed international confidence and you're here saying: "Trust them".  You're asking this audience around this hall to say trust them, when they've covered up for how long, since 2006, the nuclear installations?
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
I mean, hiding facility, hiding facility does not mean they are going to build a bomb.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, it hardly builds confidence, does it?  If you're asking people round here to trust them, it hardly builds confidence, does it?  Does it build your confidence?
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
I believe that Iran is not to build a nuclear bomb, this is my belief according to the whole 18 years of Iran having the capability to build a nuclear bomb, the last 18 years, before the first inspectors came in August 2002... Iran for the last 7 years after these images appeared, had dealt with the international community...  I think the problem is not over the nuclear issue.  The problem is  ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So it's fine to be outside the law? You think that is a good public relations exercise for Iran, because Mohamed ElBaradei doesn't.  He doesn't think it's contributed to confidence.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
You know, my main focus is the nuclear bomb, I'm not saying ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I understand.  I'm just telling you what his focus is.  Mahjoob Zweiri, thank you very much indeed.  Now please let me call on Baria Alamuddin to speak against the motion.

BARIA ALAMUDDIN
With pleasure.  I'd like actually from the outset to say what I'm going to say does not include the Iranian people or the Iranian culture.  I'm mainly speaking about the regime and the government in Iran, and I'm somebody who endorses the position of zero tolerance with nuclear weapons, not only in Iran and this region, but in the whole world.  More so actually in this part of the world.  The Middle East is one of the most volatile if not the most volatile and violent parts of the world.  Indeed we have a case in Israel where we know that Israel has nuclear weapons, so we hardly need another country with nuclear weapons.  What we need is to get rid of all nuclear weapons in this region, so we don't want to add another one.  I don't trust Iran.  Of course I don't trust Iran.  Iran says one thing today and another thing tomorrow.  How can I trust it?  Iran says that it's going to allow the world to take some of its centrifuges and indeed deal with them in Russia and then in France, and then the next day we have something contrary, completely contrary.  I do not trust Iran because I'm an Arab, and because I'm Lebanese.  I know what it means to work against those countries.  I know what Iran is doing in countries like Lebanon, what it's doing in Iraq.  I know that it's said it loves the Arabs, it loves its neighbours, I know that one day you hear some, you know, maybe the leader of the parliament saying: "Bahrain is the 14^th province."  It depends on the country, a sovereign country, Bahrain.  So yes, I don't trust Iran because Iran comes across as devious and dishonest and I have a big problem with Iran becoming a nuclear weapon.  I do not trust Iran at all when it comes to nuclear weapons or its ambitions towards the Arab world or its neighbours.  What we need to do is get rid of nuclear weapons.  I do not trust Israel as well, so...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Please come to a close.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Yes, yes.  My conclusion is, what worries me most, is that if this action by Iran will  lead to indeed a race in acquiring nuclear weapons in this area, and this is what we can't do.  Thank you very much.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Baria Alamuddin, thank you very much.  You don't trust Iran because you are an Arab.  That's hardly evidence, is it, on which to base your mistrust.  It seems you're just buying in to the West's hysteria and politicking and manipulation that seems to paint Iran in a bad light.  You haven't provided any evidence for not trusting Iran.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Yes, okay.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Where is the evidence?  There's got to be more than emotion here.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
No, of course, I agree with you, but we are Arabs and we are emotional people and we do not want to...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, that's all you've given us, but we're looking for something a little more concrete than that here tonight.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
I totally agree with you, but I'm hoping that during the discussion, I'll have the time and the energy to be able to prove my point. It's two minutes...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, I think the audience would like to know now where your evidence is for taking this position, that you don't trust Iran on the nuclear issue.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Yes, I will not trust Iran as indeed as I told you, I remember the beginning of October when everybody was jubilant, when they had the talks in Switzerland, and Iran promised that it was going to co-operate with the international community.  Just barely 24 hours later we started hearing contradictory statements ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, talks come and go.  The international community hardly speaks with one voice, does it?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
I agree with you, but...
TIM SEBASTIAN
They can't be the easiest bunch of countries to negotiate with, can they?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
No, I don't trust them either...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you don't actually trust anybody.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
With the nuclear issue, no.  No, of course not, with the nuclear issue no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you don't trust anyone.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
No, no.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you have no evidence for that, so you're working on emotion alone here?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
No I'm working on emotion and evidence... 
TIM SEBASTIAN
You haven't got any facts to back up your claim with whatsoever, have you?  Look at what Mohamed ElBaradei said: "The threat in Iran's nuclear programme is exaggerated."  He says it's exaggerated.  "I don't think that we'll wake up tomorrow," he says, "and discover that Iran has a nuclear weapon."  You seem to think you will wake up tomorrow and find one, but on the basis of what?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
No, no, I don't think we can find one tomorrow, but we could find one in a year or two or three, and I don't want to come to this conclusion, and I don't want to come to this stage.  I want a nuclear-free world, and a definitely nuclear-free area.  I want Israel to get rid of its nuclear weapons, and I ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Well, we're not talking about that, we're talking about whether people trust Iran, that's what we'll concentrate on in this debate tonight.  Baria Alamuddin, thank you very much indeed.  All right.  Let me now ask Mohammad Marandi to speak for the motion. 

MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Iran is a very independent country and it has gained its independence at a very heavy price from the United States, therefore it is understandable why Western governments and much of the Western media constantly demonise the country.  I'm thankful to Tim and his colleagues for providing this format and this somewhat rare opportunity to give us the story from a different perspective, that this House should definitely trust Iran. Since the revolution, Iran has been trying to break the Western monopoly over hi-tech research, development and industry, and it believed that all countries have a duty to advance in these fields.  This is why today Iran is one of the world's most advanced countries in fields such as stem cell research, as well as nano-technology, because there is no doubt that oil will soon fail us.  Iran's peaceful nuclear programme should be seen within this broader framework.  Contrary to Western claims, the IAEA and Dr. ElBaradei have stated time after time that there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Iran's nuclear [programme] has ever been anything but peaceful.  In light of the fact that the IAEA is not a democratic body and it is for the most part, the Board is controlled by Western countries, this is very significant indeed.  Countries that advance in the field of peaceful nuclear energy will be producers and not consumers of what is called the energy of the future: fusion energy.  Such technology must not be monopolised by a few powers.  So, as all of Iran's nuclear installations are under the supervision of the IAEA, 24 hours a day, this House should definitely trust Iran.  On the contrary, we should question the motives of those countries who actually haven't used nuclear weapons and who have no problem with the apartheid regime in Palestine having them, especially as it constantly uses illegal weapons against civilians.  It is these countries that have given weapons of mass destruction to Saddam Hussein to use against his own people, and Iran, and they have yet to express any remorse for these crimes.  Ironically...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you please come to a close...
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
...while Iran is the world's biggest victim of WMDs, it is very revealing that it has never produced chemical weapons, because Iran deems them to be immoral.  However, I believe that the members of this House should definitely trust Iran and one another, and work together to neutralise the policies of divide and rule, so that we can all work together to build a better future for the region and beyond.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Professor Marandi, thank you very much indeed.  You'd accept I think that trust should be based on someone's past record, wouldn't you?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
That's right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why should this audience, or anyone else, trust Iran when they have pretended for so long, they've pretended for 18 years they didn't have a centrifuge enrichment programme, they pretended for 12 years they didn't have a laser enrichment programme, and in November 2003 the IAEA strongly deplored the past cover-up of nuclear activities, it said Iran had failed to meet its obligations under its safeguard agreement.  Well, with that kind of track record, it's pretty hard for you to persuade these people, isn't it, that they've got to trust Iran?  It's already broken their trust, hasn't it?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
I don't think so.  I think that everyone knows that the IAEA is dominated by Western powers, and it is highly influenced by them.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you just said, you quoted them to suit your argument.  You just said that they haven't seen any sign of a weapon...
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Exactly, and that is what is so significant. In fact...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you believe them on one thing when it suits you and you don't believe them on the other.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
No, I'm saying that the IAEA, despite this, they admitted that.  The Iranians... in fact the countries in reality, that have broken the regulations of the IAEA and the non-proliferation treaty are those who tried to prevent Iran for 18 years from having access to nuclear energy, peaceful nuclear energy.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you haven't explained to me why lie, why conceal it?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
They did not lie, they did not conceal...
TIM SEBASTIAN
When I raised this with your then ambassador in 2004, your then ambassador, Javad Zarif at the United Nations, he said, he could only say there had been some ‘reporting irregularities', he said...  those were his words, 'reporting irregularities'.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Iran has acted in accordance with the original subsidiary agreement 3.1, where 180 days before uranium insertion you have to announce a new installation, just like the recent one they did announce, on their own ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
In 2006.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
... within accordance of international law.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Look, Mohamad ElBaradei said you're outside the law.  He didn't accept your unilateral interpretation of that agreement.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Well, the legal adviser to the International Atomic Energy Agency said that this is not a legal issue, it is a technicality, and there is a difference between Iran ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
He stands by what he said, Mohamad ElBaradei, that you are outside the law.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
That's what he said initially but his legal adviser didn't say the same thing.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Right.  Professor Marandi, thank you very much indeed.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, I'm going to ask now Alireza Nourizadeh to speak against the motion.

ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Thank you, Tim.  Thank you, yes.  Well, first of all I would like to say that I'm not living in Iran.  I left my country, as Tim mentioned, 29 years ago and I love to go back.  My window every day opens to Iran.  I'm living in London physically, but emotionally, morally, mentally I am there, and I have a TV show called A Window to the Fatherland so through that show I speak to my people and, you know, they call me, they are in contact with me.  I just want to ask one major question: how can we trust a government who kills its own people, tortures them, rapes them, killing them in the street of Tehran in front of your eyes... and then the President comes and denies that and says: "That was a conspiracy" and maybe you all saw Neda is a symbol for us, or the Green Movement of Iran, and you all saw Neda and he comes and say, no, maybe there was a conspiracy, maybe they themselves killed Neda.  We cannot trust Islamic Republic of Iran because of its record.  They lied to the international community year after year and when the international community discovered that, they came and tried to justify it.  After the revolution, Ayatollah Khomeini said: "Whatever has been done during the Shah's time, it has no value."  Almost they closed down the whole nuclear file.  After the war they found out no, they need nuclear energy, so the programme started again.  And during that period, they tried to hide mainly the military side of it and how the... I think Dr. ElBaradei is the most decent man I have ever seen in such a important job.  He tried to avoid confrontation, he tried to save Iran from attack, but even Dr. ElBaradei is fed up.  Each time he discovers something new, so the...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Could you come to a close...
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
...well, I hope I have time during the discussion, during the debate, to explain to you what they have done and why and Baria not trust them.  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Alireza Nourizadeh, thank you very much indeed.  Do you think Iran would want to commit suicide by having and possibly using nuclear weapons?  Do you think that's in their calculations?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
No.  I'm telling you what... I mean, Ayatollah Khomeini once said: "Islam does not permit us to build nuclear bomb or to use a nuclear bomb."
TIM SEBASTIAN
Times have changed.  Today's Iran is very different.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
That's right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nothing has been found to indicate that they still have a nuclear programme... in fact America's own national intelligence estimate for 2007 during the Bush years, where God knows they were looking for any shred of evidence they could get about Iran, do you know what they said?  "We judge with high confidence that in the fall of 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons programme."
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Tim, the hypocrisy I saw in the American policy and on the American side is such...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Oh, so you're going to lash America as well as Iran, okay.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Of course I will, I'll do that because they know there is a military programme, they know that very well.  I as a journalist and researcher, I have evidence they do have...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So why did they tell the world that they hadn't?  Where's the evidence?  What's your evidence?  Where is the evidence?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
I'm not going to disclose my evidence here.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Why not?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, it doesn't sound very credible unless you can tell us what it is, does it?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
I cannot come up with the name of people who defected to the West with their computer... recently one disclosed the whole system ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
And suddenly these computers were made available to you, and all the evidence was made available to you?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
No, not to me.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Nobody in the West was talking about nuclear evidence on these computers.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
It is available to maybe the CIA or MI6 or whatever.  It's not available, but as a person who disclosed the chain of killings of intellectuals in Iran, I know something which maybe others don't know.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You have not one shred of evidence to suggest that Iran has any intention of pursuing a nuclear weapons programme whatsoever.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Four years ago ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Because if you have, I think you should share it with us.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
... there was a big explosion in a train carrying military equipment to Mashhad.  After that explosion several, I'm not saying hundreds, but maybe a couple of hundred people, they were sick, they had signs of being in touch with nuclear materials...
TIM SEBASTIAN
It doesn't prove anything, does it?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
...and then another time when Dr. ElBaradei was going to send his inspectors to Tehran, we have a university in Teheran, around that university there was a river and they have taken everything away within two or three days before the arrival of the inspectors...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Alireza Nourizadeh, this is hearsay, there are no facts involved, there's nothing that is backed up from anywhere.  It's just manipulating information to suit your arguments.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
No, it's not, Tim, there were several Iranian scientists who defected to the West.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
We know some of them and they disclosed the secret military programme.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  It's a pity you can't disclose it to us.  Thank you very much indeed.  All right.  I'm going to throw it open now to the audience, and just a reminder that our motion tonight is: ‘This House trusts Iran NOT to build a nuclear bomb.'  Lady in the second row.  If you could also tell us where you're from, when you get the microphone, please.

aAUDIENCE (F)
Good evening.  I'm Iraqi. Well, my question is to the proposition side of the debate, the people who are speaking for the motion.  Well, looking at the history of Iran's statements, and if we trust Iran this time, what happens if - as usual - what Iran has stated is not real, is not true?  This region, where we are, between two powerful countries, as in Iran and Israel, with nuclear weapons... where do you think that this region will be, in the middle of what - what kind of mess?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mohammad Marandi, would you like to take that?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
First of all, Iran's position has never changed, in fact with regards to the recent negotiations, the fact, the point that was mentioned that they switched their positions is not true, because the Iranians never made any statement.  The problem is that in the Western press, we have a very misleading picture of Iran, and it is very rare for people to see the Iranian perspective told by the Iranians themselves.  The guests on the other side, he says he has all sorts of evidence.  Maybe he is linked to intelligence organisations in the West, I don't know, but from what I've seen in Iran, from the newspapers that I've read, from the materials that I've seen myself, I have never seen any inconsistencies.
TIM SEBASTIAN
But you haven't ever seen any classified material yourself, have you?  And you're a university professor.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
That's right.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You're not the first person they would tell, are you?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Definitely not, but I have seen the reports of the IAEA.  What your guest has said about Mashhad, none of these exist in any of the reports.  It's interesting that the President of the United States, Mr. Obama, says he has full confidence in Mr. ElBaradei.  Mr. ElBaradei says that there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Iran's programme is anything but peaceful.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think the speaker wants to come back to you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Okay, sir, but you yourself said that Iran is a very developed country when it comes to research and so on.  Looking at a country as strong as Iran, don't you think - and knowing that the relationship between Iran and Israel, and knowing the tension that's going through there, and knowing that Israel has a nuclear weapon, and you yourself stated that Iran is a very developed country when it comes to research - do you think that Iran would not take this chance to do it, to go and develop and have the nuclear bomb?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Of course, there's no reason why Iran should, I mean, who's going to launch a nuclear attack?  The point is that in the 90s in fact, Western countries tried to prevent Iran from developing its oil industry, and petrochemical plants, saying that Iran may make chemical weapons, so why don't we just prevent Iran from having refineries?  Why don't we just take away their computers, why don't they just live in a desert and sit back and have the Americans give them what the country needs?  The reality is that the country is developing and in fact Iran has said repeatedly that it is willing to co-operate with every country in the region in order to develop the nuclear industry as well as other industries, nanotechnology, stem cell research together.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, I'm going to ...
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
I think to answer her question, this area will go to hell, between the two powers having nuclear weapons - indeed to hell, there's no other place to go when you have such things.  Every single day we hear statements coming out of Iran for the annihilation of Israel, for you know... it's... every day Mr. Ahmadinejad gives a speech and ‘death to America' and ‘death to Israel' and I don't know what.  This is not a regime that talks about peace or about prosperity or indeed about... I'm not here to defend Israel in any way...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I just want you to answer that point.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Yes, first of all this is a myth that we have in the Western press again.  Mr. Ahmadinejad, I didn't vote for either Mr. Ahmadinejad or Mr. Mousavi by the way, but Mr. Ahmadinejad never said that Israel must be destroyed.  He said that Israel must cease to exist.  This is Iran's official policy, it's far away from that.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what's the difference?  Cease to exist or be destroyed.  It's not going to go by itself, is it?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
It should cease to exist as a political entity because it is an apartheid regime and the Palestinian people all have the right of return.  Basically Israel is like apartheid South Africa.  It is not morally legitimate in the eyes of the Iranians, and just as the black African majority had the right to go home.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Just one thing ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Very briefly because we're going to take another question in a minute.  Just very briefly.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
I think when Dr Marandi is talking about the apartheid regime of the Israel, you should also talk about apartheid regime of Iran.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
We have 14 million Sunni and we have no minister, no deputy minister, no government, not even head of a bank, a Sunni.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, gentleman in the front row.  We'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening everybody.  I'm from Palestine.  The question of trust.  All the debate so far is building on what Mr ElBaradei has said, and where did he say that?  He said it in Iran, and after Iran had actually disclosed the new premises for the inspection.  Now the question of trust when it comes to nuclear armament, which of the countries that have capabilities were trustworthy on this question?  Now the lady here ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Are you coming to a question, please?
AUDIENCE (M)
You see, if this area is so volatile, Margaret Thatcher when she was in office, and the question of nuclear armament was brought up, raised the point that Europe has never seen any kind ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, could we have a question please?  You do have a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
The question is: why, why Iran, why this campaign that is to bring Iran as just one country down to its knees because Israel is, and the other countries, are after just Iran? Why Iran in particular?  Thank you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  Dr. Nourizadeh.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Always he is right.  Whenever we want to talk about something: Israel conspiring against us, America conspiring against us, for 30 years we keep talking about the enemy, and when the enemy raises his hand to come and shake hand, we say ‘no'.  Always enemy, always Israel - we should find different wording in order to justify the Iran nuclear programme, rather than talking about Israel has got 200 warheads, Israel has got ...  Nobody wants to deprive Iran of nuclear technology.  Everybody would like to see Iran advancing in all aspects of life.  Iran is a great country, is a superpower of the area.  Who wants to prevent Iran from having nuclear technology?  The question is, this regime lost the trust of the world.  First of all they have to gain back the trust, how could they? They could send 1200 kilograms to Russia and to France ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, we need to keep the answers relatively short because there's a lot to get in.  Mahjoob Zweiri, you wanted to come in.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
I think there are two levels of discussion, and I drew your attention to that.  One: the main question of this debate - according to the evidence available, now Iran is not [going] to build a nuclear bomb.  We don't speak about tension, we speak about reality.  Reality says Iran will not be able to build a nuclear.  The problem of capabilities, problem of co-operation with the international community, the impact of sanctions, this was obvious to me.  The other level of discussion is the political side of a problem between Iran, the region and the international community, and if you want to open the debate to this, then it will be never-ending.  Now, there are different opinions over Iran's policy.  We may disagree with some of them but at the end of the day the issue over the nuclear bomb... there is enough evidence that Iran will not build it, because it has the problem of capabilities.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  I'm going to take a question from the lady in the fourth row.  Yes, please.  Please stand up.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi, I'm from Qatar.  [pointing to Mohammad Marandi].  You mentioned that because the IAEA is run by Western nations, that their findings can be seen as biased.  My question is, in this case who can we trust as an investigator of Iran's past?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Before I begin I'd just like to say it is distressing for me...  it is distressing for me to see anyone use the race card and the sectarian card...
AUDIENCE (F)
But you did.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
No, I didn't.  My mother-in-law is Arab and she's Sunni, she comes from a Sunni family, and I do not agree with this, and I think, I don't agree that Arabs are emotional either, that's an Orientalist stereotype, but in any case ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Well, you just heard one say she was. 
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Well I don't agree... but what I was saying was that despite the fact that the International Atomic Energy Agency is biased towards the West, they have never shown a shred of evidence to prove that Iran's nuclear programme is anything but peaceful. 
AUDIENCE (F)
What evidence do you have that says that the IAEA is biased towards the West?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Because the majority of the countries ...
AUDIENCE (F)
Yes, I realise that.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
... the members of the Board are from European countries, they don't reflect the international community proportionately.
AUDIENCE (F)
But I think that's what their job definition is, to investigate things on a non-biased...
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
I know, but we have like roughly 200 countries in the world ...
AUDIENCE (F)
I just don't believe their findings are accurate.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
... and therefore the developing countries are the majority countries, but on the Board they are a small minority.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
But the president is Egyptian.
AUDIENCE (F)
You still haven't given me an answer.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
But the countries of influence are European.
TIM SEBASTIAN
The questioner doesn't feel you gave here a satisfactory answer.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
My understanding was that you were asking me why do I think that despite it [being] biased, so what's the significance of what they say, how can we find the answer.  I'm saying that even though it is biased, they have no evidence.  That is itself very significant.
AUDIENCE (F)
My question is: who can we trust?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Well, I think that we have to trust evidence on the ground.  If you say that, well, Iran is as usual guilty until proven innocent, that's fine.  Palestinians are terrorists until proven otherwise, you know, that's how the media in today's world seems to be working.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think it's quite so simple. 
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
It is, sometimes...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let me take a question from the lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi.  I'm Iranian-Canadian.  I just wanted to ask you, did you know that having nuclear weapons, nuclear programme in any region has always caused an arms race in that region, and now UAE and Saudi Arabia are talking about having a nuclear programme - aren't you concerned a little bit that that could cause a future arms race, even if so far, I don't say that I don't believe in Iran not pursuing nuclear weapons because who knows, they had hidden so much evidence so far, who knows that they're not having a hidden programme now?  What can actually guarantee ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what is your question?
AUDIENCE (F)
I want to know that, knowing that the Iranian government is so unpredictable, and knowing that they have hidden so many things so far, what guarantee is there that you are not hiding, I mean the Iranian government, is not hiding something right now, what's the guarantee?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to ask Mahjoob Zweiri please to answer that one.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
Again, I'm not defending the Iranian government, this is not my work, I am a professor in an academy.  I'm looking at the political scene in the region...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, but you are on this side of the argument.  The questioner asked you what guarantees she can expect that Iran is not intending to produce a bomb.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
We're taking into consideration 18 years that Iran hid its programme and 7 years that the international community knows about the programme.  They failed to bring one piece of evidence that Iran is developing a nuclear bomb. This is thirty years that they failed to bring any evidence...
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay, does that answer your question?
[Questioner shakes her head]
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
They will not do it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Would you like to come back and say a bit more?  It just doesn't answer your question?
AUDIENCE (F)
I want to say that so far they have hidden so many things.  And the government is so unpredictable, what can guarantee... where, somewhere else they find nuclear programme and they have hidden something.  It's an anarchy and in the anarchy they can do it.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think he's already answered.  Do you want to add something?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Yes, very briefly.  First of all I think that it is Saudi Arabia and the right of all other countries in the regions to have a nuclear programme within the framework of the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and I think that developing countries have every right to have the same sort of technology that Western countries do.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
And I think those countries should be able to co-operate in fact but the fact is that Iran's policies have not been inconsistent.  In fact Iran for over two years stopped enriching uranium.  They applied additional protocol, effectively allowing the IAEA to carry out intrusive inspections throughout the country, yet they never found anything suspicious.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right.  Thank you.  Gentleman in the front row, you have a question.
AUDIENCE (M)
Assalaam aleikum.  I'm from Qatar.  My question is against the motion.  Who is the West exactly trying to protect, the neighbouring countries or their "spoiled brat", Israel?  Why are we attacking Iran now, and when Israel used illegal biological weapons, no-one said a word?  That is my question.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
The last thing I will ever do in my life is protect Israel or defend Israel.  I'm Lebanese, I left my country, I live in the UK since...
[audience applause]
...I left my beloved country since 1982, I live in the UK courtesy of an Israeli invasion of my country, and Israel still invades my country whenever it pleases.  You think I defend Israel?  I think you haven't heard my comments.  My comments were first, that we do not accept that Israel, and we know that Israel has nuclear weapons.  I think we're missing a point here.  We're not discussing whether Iran has a nuclear weapon now.  We're discussing that: can we trust Iran not to build a nuclear weapon maybe tomorrow, maybe after tomorrow, maybe the year after?  What I'm trying to say is that the way Iran conducts itself does not make us believe it or trust it.  I would like Iran to have a peaceful nuclear programme, of course I would.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Let's let the questioner come back.
AUDIENCE (M)
Why wasn't this question asked when Israel used those biological...?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
It is asked...
AUDIENCE (M)
Then where's the answer, I want the answer.  Why does Israel have the right to use them and Iran doesn't have the right to have ...
BARIA ALAMUDDIN 
No, no, Israel doesn't have the right, let's make this clear.  Every time, I'm a journalist and I live in the West, and every time I interview a Western politician, I always start by asking: "What are you doing about the nuclear programme in Israel?" and you know what the answer I get is? "We're against it."  Of course we always tell Israel, but this is what you get.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, I'm going to take a question from the lady in the fourth row, fifth row - yes, you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi, I'm from Egypt.  As a completely neutral side, I have noted that US is the only government that has protested and [took] action, actual action against the nuclear project in Iran, but is there any side, completely neutral side, that can effectively investigate this issue, except for the US?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
It's the IAEA, isn't it?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Yes, it's the IAEA.  I think we'll take a question from the lady in the fourth row there. 
AUDIENCE (F)
I'm from Iran and my question is for Dr. Nourizadeh.  What makes Iran less trustworthy than the other countries, some of the other countries who currently possess nuclear weapons and nuclear plants? And they have been in more wars and they have caused more damage than Iran has ever done directly or indirectly.
[audience applause]
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Thank you.  First of all I would like to say, in the last 150 years, Iran did not attack any country.  Iran did not invade any country and always respected the borders, but that doesn't mean that what Mr. Ahmadinejad today represents is not dangerous.  Mr. Ahmadinejad is a man who believes he's sent by God and he says that holy light is surrounding him and he's trying to pave the way for the disappeared twelfth Imam....  When he was mayor of Tehran, he even suggested to build a road from ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm not sure that's answering the question.  If you could get to the question.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
This man is a dangerous man, I'm telling you, and I know one day we'll all wake up and Mr. Ahmadinejad tells us: "With the help of Imam, the Mehdi, we managed yesterday to do our first test of a nuclear bomb underground."
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
We have Ahmadinejad's replicas in the other countries that just talk about freedom of expression and everything else.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
What countries are you talking about? If you're talking about Pakistan., Pakistan does have nuclear weapons because India has, and Pakistan existence came under threats, and that is the reason they did it.  Iran is not threatened by any country.  We have 15 neighbours, our neighbours in the Persian Gulf and our neighbours in the north and west and east ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're getting slightly away from the subject.  Let me ask the questioner, where do you stand on the issue?  Do you trust Iran not to build a nuclear bomb?
AUDIENCE (F)
Well, I don't trust Iran, I don't trust any other countries to have nuclear weapons.  I mean, unless it's just up to a limited stage, I don't trust any countries to have nuclear weapons, period. But my question is why do they think...
TIM SEBASTIAN
But that's not really what we're discussing, we're discussing specifically whether we trust Iran in the light of the international concern that's been expressed about the possibility of an Iranian nuclear programme.
AUDIENCE (F) 
But are all the other countries in line with the international limitations of having nuclear power?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you want to have a different debate.  Let's have the gentleman in the fifth row there please.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hi.  Good evening everyone.   I'm from Pakistan and my question is for Ms. Baria, the reporter on the opposition side.  You say we consider any country's track record when we're considering whether or not we trust them, right, it's a question of trust.  Iran has taken significant, made significant efforts to build its rapport with the international community.  It has signed the Biological Weapons Convention, it has signed the Chemical Weapons Convention, it has signed the Non-proliferation Treaty and it has stuck by its promise.  In fact Iran proposes that the Middle East should entirely be a non-nuclear zone, right, so why don't you trust them, when they have taken all these efforts, where's the trust?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Thank you very much for asking this question.  My problem with Iran again, why I don't trust Iran, is a variety of issues.  One of them is a nuclear issue.  For example when they just revealed about the Qom nuclear facility.  It was always too late, it was after the deadline, it was after it was supposed to tell the IAEA.  Not only that.  Where was it?  It is built on the base of a mountain, in a base for the National Guard.  Why?  If you are building something completely innocent, completely clean, why hide it in a mountain?  Why tell the world later than you're supposed to, and this is one incident.  There's one incident after another after another.  Also, as I tell you, I don't trust them because they are trying to meddle in Iraq.  You know what they're trying to do in Iraq.  They not only support some Shia parties -  I'm sorry, I don't like to talk about Shia-Sunni, we're all Muslims - but this is what they're doing. Also they support Al Qaeda.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right I'll take another brief comment from the questioner...
AUDIENCE (M)
I don't think the location of the plant has any credible evidence.   They could have built the plant there because it's closer to uranium sources.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, okay.  Professor Marandi.
[audience applause]
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
You know why the plant was built under a mountain?  Because the United States and Israel keep constantly threatening Iran with military action.
[audience applause]
...Iran can be threatened, Iran can be threatened by even the current President who says all options are on the table.  It's okay to threaten Iran. 
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
And do you think that will prevent them from bombarding it?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
I have one comment.  I really think that some of your information is mistaken, for example when you said the speaker of the Iranian parliament spoke about Bahrain, he never spoke about Bahrain, never on any circumstance did he say that.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Yes, on the second day the Foreign Minister went to Bahrain ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Sorry, she's just correcting...
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Yes, on the second day the Foreign Minister went to Bahrain and apologised.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
No, a newspaper reporter...
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Well you can say no, this is very much Israel, they do something and they say something else...
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
A newspaper reporter said that...
TIM SEBASTIAN
They're not always wrong, are they, newspapers?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
No, he said it on his own behalf. He didn't quote...
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
The newspaper [inaudible] is a representative of Ayatollah Khomeini.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Now, a newspaper reporter, that is not the Speaker of parliament.  In any case, the only reason why Iran built it under a mountain was in order to protect its facilities and the poor people who are working there, because if they're bombed, then the children of those people are going to be orphaned. 
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
No children [inaudible]
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
I'm sorry, the people who work in the nuclear facilities are human beings...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the second row.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
They have children living in the nuclear facilities?  So why would they build it like that?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Because there's a threat of it being bombed, so they built it under a mountain so that threat would no longer exist.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, gentleman in the second row, you have a question.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening to the panel.  I'm a British citizen, a long-term resident of Qatar.  I'm proud to be here this evening with my teenage son and I brought him up in the belief that trust must be earned, and also that past behaviour and practice is the best indicator of likely future behaviour.  Iran, in my belief, has not earned the trust of the international community and its past and recent deceitful behaviour indicates that we shouldn't trust it in the future, so I'm against the motion, and would ask you why you believe we should trust given this recent deceitful behaviour.  Thank you.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Well, first of all I think we are not speaking about the international community, we're speaking about the group of powerful Western countries for the most part, and they do not represent all of us.  Secondly, is it Iran that's not trustworthy, or is it those countries that gave Saddam Hussein chemicals of mass destruction, weapons of mass destruction?  I personally survived two chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq war and they were horrific.   If anyone in this room is against chemical weapons, biological and nuclear weapons, it's definitely me alongside others, but the fact is that Western countries, they have carried out atrocities against Iran but Iran has a track record of never engaging any country, Iran has a track record of never producing any weapons of mass destruction including chemical weapons.  Chemical weapons were used against Iran, extensively, with the support of Western countries.  They helped Saddam Hussein get the technology.  Should we trust Western countries?
[audience applause]
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
The same countries provided Iran with weapons.  I'll tell you what.  Israel gave Iran 400 tyres for Iranian aircraft.  Israel knew, all of you heard about Irangate, the story of Irangate is very famous.  An Israeli general flown to Tehran with MacFarlane and they had in their aircraft 45 Hawk missiles, so all of them gave ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
This is going back a long time. 
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Well they all gave weapons.
TIM SEBASTIAN
All right, Mahjoob Zweiri, you wanted to make a point.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
I think the route behind those who don't want to trust that Iran will not build, is going back to politics.  Iran has a problem with perception, no-one can deny it.  The perception... how Iran, how the West have perceived Iran is the matter.  When you speak about Iran, even it's important how they are perceived.  The nature of the regime is one of the reasons how they, Iran, how Western countries basically see Iran, so I think the political context and the perception matter is affecting the judgment on the Iranian nuclear programme, so if we separate this from the political context, I think there will be more of an accurate judgment, and I believe myself that the statements by ElBaradei, for instance, if you look at them since 2003, he has never said, the statement, all his statements, they did not have the same truth.  Basically he was reacting to some development, and this also goes back to the other statements ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, well, he did say you were outside the law. 
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
But perception is a very important issue to deal with.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the second row.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you.  I'm from Afghanistan.  I have a question for Mr. Marandi.  As a recent example we saw what happened to Iraq.  There were actually no weapons of mass destruction, but the country was over-run by American soldiers.  Don't you think that the Iranian government actually is jeopardising the future of Iranian people by actually continuing developing nuclear policy, energy, and what would happen in the case when America or any other powerful countries, they decide to attack Iran?
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Well, first of all, it is interesting because it implies the sort of threat that the United States and the Europeans are making against all countries that do not abide by them.  Just because Iran is opposed to apartheid in Palestine, in other policies...but the reality on the ground is that the people of Iran support, according to polls carried out by Americans, support a nuclear programme. The Iranian government - they cannot relinquish it because it is an issue of sovereignty.  Once the United States gets its demand and forces Iran to give up its nuclear programme, what next?   It's like giving a piece of your land, it's giving up your rights.  You're no longer equal.  Some countries are more equal than others.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the fourth row.
AUDIENCE (M)
Good evening.  I'm from Qatar but originally from Iran.  Russia, America and Israel and South Korea - all those countries have adopted the nuclear bomb programme, but when Iran starts the nuclear programme, suddenly the whole world becomes against it.  Why?  Is it because this is the only Muslim country? 
[audience applause]
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Pakistan is a Muslim country, it has capability and it has bombs and so there is a Muslim country with bombs, you can be sure of that. But what is the difference between Iran and North Korea?  North Korea is an isolated poor country and... based on the report I have Ayatollah Khomeini once told some of Iranian scientists: "Look at North Korea."  With two bombs, the Americans could do nothing. Also they are hungry, they have no money, they have no resources, but you know, if they have one bomb, that means the continuation of the revolution forever, that means the Islamic Republic will last for another 50 years, so that is the mentality of the Iranian leadership.  Therefore the people are worried here because if Iran has a nuclear bomb, if they obtain a nuclear bomb, that means first of all against the Iranian people, first of all it's against the Iranian people, because this regime would say: "Look, I have a nuclear bomb, nobody can touch me, nobody can criticise me.  I can go and kill you forever."
AUDIENCE (M)
So you say other countries do the same thing when they adopt it?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Which ones?
AUDIENCE (M)
Like Russia, when they had nuclear bomb and America, they said that no-one can ...
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
My friend, Russia is a superpower, it used to be the Soviet Union.  So the Soviet Union and the United States, it's a different story.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
I don't know why nobody asks about a nuclear-free area.  Aren't you concerned about your youth, about the future of the children, about the future of this country?  Half of the Arabs are illiterate, we need to develop our countries.  Iran needs to do the same.  Why should we put our money in nuclear weapons that you cannot even use?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, do you want to come back briefly and then I'm going to move on.  Do you want to come back on that?  You don't.  All right.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
The answer to your question is: it is politics.  When Iran was a friend of the United States the States has supported Iran to built the first nuclear missile.  When Iran's position politically changed, it was.. everything has changed.  It's politics at the centre.  It is the core of this change.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  I'm going to take a question from the lady in red.
AUDIENCE (F)
Hi. I am Egyptian.  My question is for the motion against.  You stated earlier that it's no secret that Israel had nuclear weapons for decades now, so what makes you so sure that Iran developing its nuclear weapons programme will be the trigger for an arms race in the Middle East?
TIM SEBASTIAN
That really wasn't the motion that we're discussing.  We're discussing whether the House trusts Iran not to build one, not whether Iran would be the trigger for an arms race in the region.
AUDIENCE (F)
But the larger significance of that would be that one of the reasons stated was that it would trigger a nuclear arms race in the Middle East, so I was asking why that would be the role played by Iran as opposed to Israel who's had them for decades.
TIM SEBASTIAN
That's going slightly beyond what we want to ...
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
It's a matter of self-defence, my friend, it's a matter of self-defence.  When I see my neighbour that hates me, that is trying to trigger problems in my country, we know what they are doing, for example what Hamas and the Palestinians... dividing the Palestinians.  We know what they're doing in Iraq again I tell you, what they're doing in the Emirates with the island, and Yemen with the Houthis so this is why you will find out countries for example perhaps like Qatar or Saudi Arabia or Egypt or other countries feeling the need to have such weapons to defend themselves.  At the end of the day, we're all going to go to hell.
[Audience applause]
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
It's very worrying to see first of all, all sorts of quotes made, and we don't know where the sources are from.  Ayatollah Khomeini said that, this person said that, we've never heard of them.  I can say Obama said in a private meeting that there's no concern, but with regards to Iran, Iran supports the Palestinian people, Iran is guilty.  Iran supported the Lebanese people.  When no-one supported Bosnia, Iran did.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Iran does not support the Lebanese people, I'm sorry. Iran is making problems for the Lebanese people.
[Audience applause]
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Not everyone agrees with you. Not everyone agrees with you.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
I'll just give you some figures.  Iran gave Hezbollah $1 billion, 200,000 million, this is record, public record - you can refer to it.. in two years' time, in two years, and Hamas obtained $120 million from Iran last year, and Iran did not give one penny to the Palestinian legitimate government of Abu Mazen.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row, you sir.
AUDIENCE (M)
Assalaam aleikum. I'm from Syria.  Talking about Iran, this leads us to talking about Syria as well.  I am from Derezor by the way and Israel last year bombed my city, claiming that we have a nuclear programme in Derezor - and in Derezor, if you look at this city from the desert, they look through the satellite ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, well, we're really not discussing the bombing that took place in Syria.
AUDIENCE (M)
Okay, but the same problem, that nobody here would like to have a nuclear bomb in Iran or an Arab world in the whole region, but Israel has nuclear weapons and nuclear ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
So what is your point?  That Iran should have weapons as well?
AUDIENCE (M)
No, no, no, I don't agree that Iran should have, or I don't think or don't believe that Iran is going to have a nuclear bomb.  They have a peaceful nuclear programme and they are announcing that and ElBaradei himself ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, that's your view.  Do you have a question?
AUDIENCE (M)
My question is why the West [has] invaded Iraq headed by, of course they are headed by America, they are attacking Syria, they are attacking Lebanon...at the same time...
TIM SEBASTIAN
No, that's not really the question.  That's not the question we're discussing.  Thank you very much.  Would you sit down please.  That's not the question we're discussing.  I'm going to take another question from over there.  I'm going to take another question from over there, the lady over there, thank you.  If we can stay with the subject, that would be awfully helpful for us all, thank you.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening.  I'm Egyptian.  My question is concerning trust of Iran in terms of its political or governmental system as a theocracy.  With, after the Iranian revolution Khomeini has said that the law of God is above the law of the state or the nation, and that the supreme leader can issue a fatwa saying that it's needed to nuke someone or etc. So with the manipulation of any religion and interpretations of them, how can we trust that any supreme leader whether current or future supreme leader will not issue a future fatwa saying that it is a Muslim duty to nuke or attack another nation?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Professor Marandi.
[inaudible comment from audience]
AUDIENCE (F)
This manipulation happens though... Sir I am a proud Muslim...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Excuse me.
AUDIENCE (F)
I am a proud Muslim but I'm saying that manipulation occurs.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Excuse me, sir, we can't hear you.  We can't hear you anyway so please can we let the questioner talk to the panel please.  Thank you very much.  We'll get a microphone to you a little later, all right? Thank you very much.  We try and have a little structure here so people can see what they're doing, and hear what they're doing., all right? [applause] thank you.  Now if we can go back to the questioner, perhaps Professor Marandi would like to answer the question.  I would ask everybody, please, to abide by the rules of this debate.  Thank you.
AUDIENCE (F)
I would just like to point out that I'm a proud Muslim but as any religion, there is always manipulation of interpretations, hence different sects, the different ways that people practise their religion, there is always different interpretations.  I'm not blaming it on Islam or anything.  Thank you.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Well, first of all Britain and the United States are not Islamic societies or governments and they manipulated everything and invaded Iraq, so we can't ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
I don't think that was the question she was asking you.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
Well yes, in fact the point is that first of all, we have to be fair if we are going to talk about trust, we have to look at it evenly.
TIM SEBASTIAN
She's asking you a particular question.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
I'm getting there.  The point is that if the Iranian constitution has checks and balances, the supreme leader is chosen and can be removed at any time by a council of experts... yes, I'm sure he (points to Alireza Nourizadeh) has his  quotes.. by a council of experts that are elected by the people themselves...  Secondly the united, the International Atomic Energy Agency has 24-hour-a-day access to all of Iran's nuclear sites, every single one of them.  If Iran was to change course, they would find out immediately, just like all other countries.  They have full disclosure to all these sites, every single ounce of Iranian nuclear material.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, you've made that point.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
... is under the control of the IAEA.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Alireza Nourizadeh.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Yes, I want to tell you, here in the State of Qatar, His Highness the Emir of Qatar is Emir of Qatar.  In Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini is the leader of all Muslims.  Therefore when Khomeini is talking, he is not talking only about 70 million Iranians.  He is talking about 1.5 billion Muslims.  Look at his authority, and Dr. Marandi is saying the Assembly of Experts can remove him.  It's a joke.  Ayatollah Rafsanjani, the speaker of this Assembly of Experts just tried to say: "Let us limit his power" - see what's happening to him [Rafsanjani].
[Audience applause].
The Assembly of Experts whose members are chosen by the Guardian Council and Guardian Council members are chosen by by Ayatollah Khomeini - look what is the transparency, what is the... they are looking at leaders' behaviour? No.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
I think Ayatollah Khomeini believes he is the leader of all Muslims, he is the new Caliph and he could do whatever he wants.  One day he will come to you and say: "We believe we have to have bombs", and everybody has to accept.
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've made your point, thank you very much.  I'm going to take a question from the gentleman in the front row.
AUDIENCE (M)
Thank you, Tim.  I am Tunisian.  My question for the opposition is why, in the first place, should Iran seek the trust of anybody?  Iran is an independent country, a sovereign country and it has every single right to defend itself against the United States-led campaign, anti-Islamic and anti-Iranian campaign.
TIM SEBASTIAN
So you think if it wants a bomb, it should have one?
AUDIENCE (M)
Sorry?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You think if it wants a bomb, it should have one?
AUDIENCE (M)
If it wants a bomb, definitely it should have one.  The gentleman in the opposition earlier mentioned that ...
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Even though it says it doesn't want one?
AUDIENCE (M)
Within the periphery of fifteen neighbours, Iran is not threatened by anybody and that's very misleading because one of the major enemies of Iran and the Islamic world is Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Baria Alamuddin, you want to answer this gentleman?
BARIA ALAMUDDI
Yes, thank you.  You know what I really do not understand is this love for wars and nuclear weapons.  I mean, where is this coming from? 
[Applause].
Don't people want to live, don't people want to enjoy themselves.  We have enough wars.  As you said rightly we have a great big enemy called Israel that wages war every single day and threaten us all.  Do we want to be threatened more?  I agree with you.
TIM SEBASTIAN
I think 'every single day' is a little bit of an exaggeration.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Iran is a sovereign country, yes, you're right, but also we live in a global village and we cannot let every single nation in the world, especially with a track record like Iran, have a nuclear weapon..  No, I'm sorry, I do not agree with that.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Israel is not our neighbour, sorry.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Israel should not have a nuclear weapon, they should get rid of nuclear weapons today.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Baria Alamuddin you made your point.  Professor Marandi.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
First of all I don't agree at all with the assumption, at all, that Iran is in any way or form pursuing nuclear weapons.  This is a policy of divide and rule.  To demonise Iran.  If any other country tomorrow let's say takes a more independent line from the United States, they will face the same situation as Iran does today.  Iran's problem is basically that its stance is independent from that of the United States.  That is its main problem.  It will be accused of everything and everything, terrorists and weapons of mass destruction.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right, OK.  You've made your point .  Thank you very much.  Gentleman in the fourth row.  That's right, we'll get a microphone to you.
AUDIENCE (M)
Hi, I am Tunisia.  I would like to ask Mrs. Baria, how can you look for free nuclear area and still we cannot even impose on Israel to stop settlements?  How can you stop, how can you impose on Israel to stop their nuclear programme?
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
Yes, I agree.
[Applause]
AUDIENCE (M)
So please, please, can we be realistic?
TIM SEBASTIAN
What is your point about the motion?
AUDIENCE (M)
My point is ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Can you relate your questions to the motion, please?
AUDIENCE (M)
Can I talk?  Can I talk?  It's about me, I'm Arabic, so my point is, if there are countries who do have nuclear power, not to use it.  It's just for the balance of power, there is something called the balance of power and now we need balance of power.  As long as there is Israel, we need the nuclear bomb. 
[Applause].
 As long as there is Israel ...  So yes, yes, it's good to be optimistic but as long as there is Israel, we cannot even impose on her to stop settlements, so what about nuclear weapons?
TIM SEBASTIAN
You've made your point.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
I trust you and I understand ...
AUDIENCE (M)
Me too I trust you but I cannot wait for twenty years ...
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, can she please answer the question now? Thank you.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
I agree with you.  I think Israel should not be allowed to behave like it does and I do not agree with the double standards that many countries including the United States or Britain or anybody exercises when it comes to the right of the Palestinians, but this does not mean, my friend, that we should add insult to injury and have another country in the region with nuclear weapons.  We want to live, okay, we want to develop.  We don't want to build nuclear weapons.  We don't want more wars.
[Applause]
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay.  Does anybody, excuse me, we have to move on to another person.
BARIA ALAMUDDIN
This is not about Israel. It's not about Israel.
TIM SEBASTIAN
It's not about Israel, you're right.  Professor Marandi.
MOHAMMAD MARANDI
One evidence is that Iran was a victim and is the most important victim of weapons of mass destruction in the modern world, and of course Western societies have yet to apologise for what they've done to Iran.  Has Iran produced chemical weapons?  Has Iran used chemical weapons?  No, but therefore Iran has a clean track record, contrary to what these other Western countries have.  Their track record is not nearly as good. Iran has to face the NPT and work within the IAEA.  Fantastic, that is how it should work, and other countries in the region should also develop their nuclear programmes in co-operation, in co-ordination with one another.  When gas and oil runs out, what are we going to do here?  What are we going to do?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  That's in the future.  I'm going to take a question from the lady in the second row.
AUDIENCE (F)
Good evening, I'm from Sudan.  I just wanted to ask, the international community and specifically the Security Council said that they are afraid that Iran was basically trying to acquire the know-how for building a nuclear bomb, and so that one day they might have the option.  I wanted to ask the proposition if they agree with this and if so, then don't you think that essentially undermines the notion of trust and their intents are basically flawed?
TIM SEBASTIAN
Mahjoob Zweiri.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
This takes us to 2004, when the whole issue's been taken under Chapter 7.  Basically the Iranian nuclear programme was a technical file dealt [with] by the IAEA, and I think when the whole issue was taken to the Security Council under Chapter 7 and there are so far five resolutions against Iran - at that moment the issue has become a very political issue, not a technical issue, and this why I don't believe with all respect that, you know, what this atomic energy [IAEA] is doing - it seems to me that it's not even respected by the Security Council.  The whole issue today is how to use the nuclear programme of Iran to get more concessions [from] Iran dealing with other files:  the relationship with non-state actors in the region, the situation in Iraq - and the only thing the United States and the international community actually [has] in their hands is the nuclear programme and speaking about [how] Iran may develop a nuclear bomb, and I do believe that all these resolutions so far in reality did not lead to tackling the whole issue because basically politicising the issue has encouraged Iran to develop its nuclear programme as we see it, but there is not enough of a sign, even to the Security Council members, and there is not enough words in these reports to say that Iran is developing a nuclear bomb.
TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, all right.  You said that. 
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
I just wanted to say that although Israel has got 200 or more nuclear bombs, I don't think Israel will ever, ever use these bombs against us or against Middle Eastern countries, Arab countries.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
Why produce them if don't they use them?
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
I tell you, they don't dare use ...
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
They want to play with them.
ALIREZA NOURIZADEH
Once Mr. Rafsanjani said in his Friday prayer, he said: "If Israel throws a bomb on us, okay, one million or so will be killed, but if they throw - and he laughed - one bomb, the whole of Israel will be wiped out, so therefore I don't think Israel will... for Israel which is surrounded by enemy, that is perhaps some sort of protection."
TIM SEBASTIAN
We're coming to the end.
MAHJOOB ZWEIRI
Let's remember, there was a war waged against Iraq in the name of WMD and there was no war, not enough evidence so we don't need any....

TIM SEBASTIAN
Okay, Mahjoob Zweiri, you've made your point.  Okay, thank you.  Thank you very much.  We've come to the point where we are going to vote on the motion that 'This House trusts Iran NOT to build a nuclear bomb.'  Please take the voting machines and let me explain to you how they work.  If you want to vote for the motion, that is, if you trust Iran not to build a bomb, you vote for the side represented by Mahjoob Zweiri and Mohammad Marandi, you will press button one, the yes button.  If you want to vote against the motion, the side represented by Baria Alamuddin and Alireza Nourizadeh, you press button two, the no button, and whichever button you want to press, would you do it now please.  You only have to press once and your vote will be communicated very shortly to our computers.  We'll have the result for you in about 15 seconds.... All right, there we are, the vote is 48 for the motion, 52 percent against.   The motion has been narrowly defeated.  All it remains for me to do is to thank our distinguished panellists, thank you very much for coming this evening.  Thank you to you, the audience, for your questions.  The Doha Debates will be back again next month.  Till then, from all of us on the team, have a safe journey home.  Good night.  Thank you very much.  Good night.